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Re: existentialism and communism

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  • Deeptanshu Jha
    Classless society is a myth ? And on what grounds to do you purport that. Communism is not a system of government. It is notasmuch an economic system either.
    Message 1 of 9 , May 5, 2006
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      "Classless society is a myth"? And on what grounds to do you purport
      that. Communism is not a system of government. It is notasmuch an
      economic system either. It is a study of evolution. It was the first
      scientific analysis of historical progress. Marx only reported what
      he observed, that classes are continually restructuring the
      hierarchy by overthrowing the class above them. This will eventually
      lead to the stage when only one class is left. Then no government
      will be required to protect the interests of the ruling class.

      In mideaval times tell a feudal lord... the poet, the artisan, the
      middle class shall take his place in the hierarchy "a myht", with
      the same confidence he would proclaim.

      Tsar Nicholas II never thought that a quarryman from siberia would
      succeed his empire.


      --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@...> wrote:
      >
      > A classless society is a myth. As long humans have needs of varied
      kind, then someone has to provide them. Hence different trades and
      professions with variable remunerations. If you classify the
      different occupations as classes then let it be. It is something we
      have to live with. Communism does not dictate individual alone is
      responsible for his actions as opposed to Sartrean thoughts.
      >
      >
      > "S.M.Jaffar" <jaffar_sm@...> wrote:
      > I do not think there is a basic difference betwee the two.What,
      at
      > present, divides them is the concept of an authoritarian
      dictatorship
      > introduced by Stalin in a communist system.Communism envisages
      > withering away of the state after the end of class conflict
      > worldwide.At this stage man will be really free and individually
      > responsible.S.M.Jaffar
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
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      >
      >
      > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
      >
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      > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
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      Service.
      >
      >
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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    • mohd sageer
      Hierarchy is a nautral phenomon. The universe cannot do away with it. Look at the structure of planets, living things and non-living things on earth- they all
      Message 2 of 9 , May 5, 2006
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        Hierarchy is a nautral phenomon. The universe cannot do away with it. Look at the structure of planets, living things and non-living things on earth- they all follow a pattern that is dictated by natural selection. As for humans, vibrancy is the essense of their existence. Taste, culture, dominance and subjugation- you name everything- rule the charactristic of human bieng. As said we have varying needs and those needs have to be provided by others. You or I cannot be self contained-

        You wrote-" Marx only reported what he observed, that classes are continually restructuring the hierarchy by overthrowing the class above them"

        True, but each time a class is overthrown another one will be replaced by the abscence of it. Changes defenetely are a cyclical process. For a while we may exist as a classless society. Then soon this will be replaced by a different sect who takes control of least demanding workforce whose contribution to society is minimal.

        Because machines alone cannot do everything for us.

        In the end it is the material need that keeps us going as a progressesive sociey. You t take the material element away- Then you could be right. we live in a classless society.

        But can it happen ?
        Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@...> wrote:
        "Classless society is a myth"? And on what grounds to do you purport
        that. Communism is not a system of government. It is notasmuch an
        economic system either. It is a study of evolution. It was the first
        scientific analysis of historical progress. . This will eventually
        lead to the stage when only one class is left. Then no government
        will be required to protect the interests of the ruling class.

        In mideaval times tell a feudal lord... the poet, the artisan, the
        middle class shall take his place in the hierarchy "a myht", with
        the same confidence he would proclaim.

        Tsar Nicholas II never thought that a quarryman from siberia would
        succeed his empire.


        --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@...> wrote:
        >
        > A classless society is a myth. As long humans have needs of varied
        kind, then someone has to provide them. Hence different trades and
        professions with variable remunerations. If you classify the
        different occupations as classes then let it be. It is something we
        have to live with. Communism does not dictate individual alone is
        responsible for his actions as opposed to Sartrean thoughts.
        >
        >
        > "S.M.Jaffar" <jaffar_sm@...> wrote:
        > I do not think there is a basic difference betwee the two.What,
        at
        > present, divides them is the concept of an authoritarian
        dictatorship
        > introduced by Stalin in a communist system.Communism envisages
        > withering away of the state after the end of class conflict
        > worldwide.At this stage man will be really free and individually
        > responsible.S.M.Jaffar
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        >
        > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo!
        FareChase
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >






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      • Deeptanshu Jha
        Good reply. But you cite that the structure of planets, living things and non-living things on earth- they all follow a pattern that is dictated by natural
        Message 3 of 9 , May 6, 2006
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          Good reply. But you cite that "the structure of planets, living
          things and non-living things on earth- they all follow a pattern
          that is dictated by natural selection". However, these things are
          not a part continuous evolution. The planets, the sun, the moon they
          have been (since the time the process initiated) following the same
          course over their history. The plants, the animals, they are the
          neccesarily the same as they were 1000 years ago. The difference is
          that these objects are not gifted with consciousness, they have not
          conceptualized any such thing and their behavior, living habits,
          have remaned stagnant over the centuries. But what about human
          beings? No. Human beings evolve, from cave man, stone age, mideval
          times, etc to this age. And an analysis of this process shows, as
          marx stated: "The history of all hitherto existing society is the
          history of class struggle. " Guess I have already said enough on
          that in my previous thread.


          --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hierarchy is a nautral phenomon. The universe cannot do away with
          it. Look at the structure of planets, living things and non-living
          things on earth- they all follow a pattern that is dictated by
          natural selection. As for humans, vibrancy is the essense of their
          existence. Taste, culture, dominance and subjugation- you name
          everything- rule the charactristic of human bieng. As said we have
          varying needs and those needs have to be provided by others. You or
          I cannot be self contained-
          >
          > You wrote-" Marx only reported what he observed, that classes
          are continually restructuring the hierarchy by overthrowing the
          class above them"
          >
          > True, but each time a class is overthrown another one will be
          replaced by the abscence of it. Changes defenetely are a cyclical
          process. For a while we may exist as a classless society. Then soon
          this will be replaced by a different sect who takes control of
          least demanding workforce whose contribution to society is minimal.
          >
          > Because machines alone cannot do everything for us.
          >
          > In the end it is the material need that keeps us going as a
          progressesive sociey. You t take the material element away- Then you
          could be right. we live in a classless society.
          >
          > But can it happen ?
          > Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@...> wrote:
          > "Classless society is a myth"? And on what grounds to do you
          purport
          > that. Communism is not a system of government. It is notasmuch an
          > economic system either. It is a study of evolution. It was the
          first
          > scientific analysis of historical progress. . This will eventually
          > lead to the stage when only one class is left. Then no government
          > will be required to protect the interests of the ruling class.
          >
          > In mideaval times tell a feudal lord... the poet, the artisan, the
          > middle class shall take his place in the hierarchy "a myht", with
          > the same confidence he would proclaim.
          >
          > Tsar Nicholas II never thought that a quarryman from siberia would
          > succeed his empire.
          >
          >
          > --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@> wrote:
          > >
          > > A classless society is a myth. As long humans have needs of
          varied
          > kind, then someone has to provide them. Hence different trades and
          > professions with variable remunerations. If you classify the
          > different occupations as classes then let it be. It is something
          we
          > have to live with. Communism does not dictate individual alone is
          > responsible for his actions as opposed to Sartrean thoughts.
          > >
          > >
          > > "S.M.Jaffar" <jaffar_sm@> wrote:
          > > I do not think there is a basic difference betwee the
          two.What,
          > at
          > > present, divides them is the concept of an authoritarian
          > dictatorship
          > > introduced by Stalin in a communist system.Communism envisages
          > > withering away of the state after the end of class conflict
          > > worldwide.At this stage man will be really free and individually
          > > responsible.S.M.Jaffar
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          > >
          > >
          > > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > Service.
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on
          Yahoo!
          > FareChase
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          >
          > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and
          30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • mohd sageer
          I can only agree with you iwith your statement that man being a creation with concience and wisdom. But that is there all there is to it. We live with our
          Message 4 of 9 , May 7, 2006
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            I can only agree with you iwith your statement that man being a creation with concience and wisdom. But that is there all there is to it. We live with our inherent, physical limitations to our cababilities. In spite of our conciousness and hundred thousands of years evolutions we still live with different physical characterstics with each other. Black, white, tanned, short, tall. The variations extend to the level of intellegence, physical strength and so on. Marx refered to the division of class only in terms of trade , occupations and wealth..

            I am not sure how much i can agree when we say a classless society is the most ideal one. Human beings are different from other on several fronts. For animals the living pattern within the same species is the similar to each other.They eat the same food, use one kind of den, and so on. However as for human beings once the basic needs are achieved then two individuals go different directions in search of fullfiment of his soul .

            Let us hypothitically assume we created a society with similar materaistic abundance-food, shleter, clothing. Do you honestly believe the individuals will be satisfied. ?
            At this stage their needs take on a different plateu. Some of them might go after spirituality. While other go in persuit of art music or literature. If not any of these, then something that is giving them meaning to life . This is essentially human nature. No amount of material wealth cannot fill these vacum .

            Here, following on their quest for fullfilment that is still unknown to him will give rise to the establishment of classes- this time it si only on a different level. That is, same people, identical wealth but with different pursuits.The saga of classes is likely to go on...

            Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@...> wrote:
            Good reply. But you cite that "the structure of planets, living
            things and non-living things on earth- they all follow a pattern
            that is dictated by natural selection". However, these things are
            not a part continuous evolution. The planets, the sun, the moon they
            have been (since the time the process initiated) following the same
            course over their history. The plants, the animals, they are the
            neccesarily the same as they were 1000 years ago. The difference is
            that these objects are not gifted with consciousness, they have not
            conceptualized any such thing and their behavior, living habits,
            have remaned stagnant over the centuries. But what about human
            beings? No. Human beings evolve, from cave man, stone age, mideval
            times, etc to this age. And an analysis of this process shows, as
            marx stated: "The history of all hitherto existing society is the
            history of class struggle. " Guess I have already said enough on
            that in my previous thread.


            --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hierarchy is a nautral phenomon. The universe cannot do away with
            it. Look at the structure of planets, living things and non-living
            things on earth- they all follow a pattern that is dictated by
            natural selection. As for humans, vibrancy is the essense of their
            existence. Taste, culture, dominance and subjugation- you name
            everything- rule the charactristic of human bieng. As said we have
            varying needs and those needs have to be provided by others. You or
            I cannot be self contained-
            >
            > You wrote-" Marx only reported what he observed, that classes
            are continually restructuring the hierarchy by overthrowing the
            class above them"
            >
            > True, but each time a class is overthrown another one will be
            replaced by the abscence of it. Changes defenetely are a cyclical
            process. For a while we may exist as a classless society. Then soon
            this will be replaced by a different sect who takes control of
            least demanding workforce whose contribution to society is minimal.
            >
            > Because machines alone cannot do everything for us.
            >
            > In the end it is the material need that keeps us going as a
            progressesive sociey. You t take the material element away- Then you
            could be right. we live in a classless society.
            >
            > But can it happen ?
            > Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@...> wrote:
            > "Classless society is a myth"? And on what grounds to do you
            purport
            > that. Communism is not a system of government. It is notasmuch an
            > economic system either. It is a study of evolution. It was the
            first
            > scientific analysis of historical progress. . This will eventually
            > lead to the stage when only one class is left. Then no government
            > will be required to protect the interests of the ruling class.
            >
            > In mideaval times tell a feudal lord... the poet, the artisan, the
            > middle class shall take his place in the hierarchy "a myht", with
            > the same confidence he would proclaim.
            >
            > Tsar Nicholas II never thought that a quarryman from siberia would
            > succeed his empire.
            >
            >
            > --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@> wrote:
            > >
            > > A classless society is a myth. As long humans have needs of
            varied
            > kind, then someone has to provide them. Hence different trades and
            > professions with variable remunerations. If you classify the
            > different occupations as classes then let it be. It is something
            we
            > have to live with. Communism does not dictate individual alone is
            > responsible for his actions as opposed to Sartrean thoughts.
            > >
            > >
            > > "S.M.Jaffar" <jaffar_sm@> wrote:
            > > I do not think there is a basic difference betwee the
            two.What,
            > at
            > > present, divides them is the concept of an authoritarian
            > dictatorship
            > > introduced by Stalin in a communist system.Communism envisages
            > > withering away of the state after the end of class conflict
            > > worldwide.At this stage man will be really free and individually
            > > responsible.S.M.Jaffar
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            > >
            > >
            > > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > Service.
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on
            Yahoo!
            > FareChase
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            > Visit your group "Sartre" on the web.
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and
            30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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          • Deeptanshu Jha
            The current system of prevailing class antagonism strangles the individual, with shallowed minds trained more to distraction than to contemplation and abstract
            Message 5 of 9 , May 8, 2006
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              The current system of prevailing class antagonism strangles the
              individual, with shallowed minds trained more to distraction than to
              contemplation and abstract thought. Property mortgage, house rent,
              stock market, class politics, endless commercialization, heavy
              taxation, overproduction... how much space does this leave the
              individual to the fullfilment of his soul?

              Now, let us propound an alternative, on of those endless 'what ifs?'
              to end this debate and resort to commitment, the act beyond the word
              ( a tribute to sartre there).

              All materialistic inequality is removed. The individual transcends
              the government. He is left to himself. No Distraction. His
              obligations are only to himself, as all men have been equated on a
              class basis, his relationship with another individual will be beyond
              any motive of profit. The success of anyone will be solely the
              result of his merit as he has no priviliges of stature to propell
              him. This will not breed difference or classes. There shall be men
              in different fields, pursuing excellence for the fulfilment of their
              soul. What shall the poet hold in envy of the artist's success or a
              chemist to hold for the physicist. Where men compete on intellect,
              proposing, contradicting, progressing, collectively moving towards
              the "fulfilment of the soul" : it will be the idealization of all
              human pursuits.



              --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@...> wrote:
              >
              > I can only agree with you iwith your statement that man being a
              creation with concience and wisdom. But that is there all there is
              to it. We live with our inherent, physical limitations to our
              cababilities. In spite of our conciousness and hundred thousands of
              years evolutions we still live with different physical
              characterstics with each other. Black, white, tanned, short, tall.
              The variations extend to the level of intellegence, physical
              strength and so on. Marx refered to the division of class only in
              terms of trade , occupations and wealth..
              >
              > I am not sure how much i can agree when we say a classless
              society is the most ideal one. Human beings are different from
              other on several fronts. For animals the living pattern within the
              same species is the similar to each other.They eat the same food,
              use one kind of den, and so on. However as for human beings once
              the basic needs are achieved then two individuals go different
              directions in search of fullfiment of his soul .
              >
              > Let us hypothitically assume we created a society with similar
              materaistic abundance-food, shleter, clothing. Do you honestly
              believe the individuals will be satisfied. ?
              > At this stage their needs take on a different plateu. Some of
              them might go after spirituality. While other go in persuit of art
              music or literature. If not any of these, then something that is
              giving them meaning to life . This is essentially human nature. No
              amount of material wealth cannot fill these vacum .
              >
              > Here, following on their quest for fullfilment that is still
              unknown to him will give rise to the establishment of classes- this
              time it si only on a different level. That is, same people,
              identical wealth but with different pursuits.The saga of classes is
              likely to go on...
              >
              > Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@...> wrote:
              > Good reply. But you cite that "the structure of planets, living
              > things and non-living things on earth- they all follow a pattern
              > that is dictated by natural selection". However, these things are
              > not a part continuous evolution. The planets, the sun, the moon
              they
              > have been (since the time the process initiated) following the
              same
              > course over their history. The plants, the animals, they are the
              > neccesarily the same as they were 1000 years ago. The difference
              is
              > that these objects are not gifted with consciousness, they have
              not
              > conceptualized any such thing and their behavior, living habits,
              > have remaned stagnant over the centuries. But what about human
              > beings? No. Human beings evolve, from cave man, stone age, mideval
              > times, etc to this age. And an analysis of this process shows, as
              > marx stated: "The history of all hitherto existing society is the
              > history of class struggle. " Guess I have already said enough on
              > that in my previous thread.
              >
              >
              > --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hierarchy is a nautral phenomon. The universe cannot do away
              with
              > it. Look at the structure of planets, living things and non-
              living
              > things on earth- they all follow a pattern that is dictated by
              > natural selection. As for humans, vibrancy is the essense of
              their
              > existence. Taste, culture, dominance and subjugation- you name
              > everything- rule the charactristic of human bieng. As said we
              have
              > varying needs and those needs have to be provided by others. You
              or
              > I cannot be self contained-
              > >
              > > You wrote-" Marx only reported what he observed, that classes
              > are continually restructuring the hierarchy by overthrowing the
              > class above them"
              > >
              > > True, but each time a class is overthrown another one will be
              > replaced by the abscence of it. Changes defenetely are a cyclical
              > process. For a while we may exist as a classless society. Then
              soon
              > this will be replaced by a different sect who takes control of
              > least demanding workforce whose contribution to society is
              minimal.
              > >
              > > Because machines alone cannot do everything for us.
              > >
              > > In the end it is the material need that keeps us going as a
              > progressesive sociey. You t take the material element away- Then
              you
              > could be right. we live in a classless society.
              > >
              > > But can it happen ?
              > > Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@> wrote:
              > > "Classless society is a myth"? And on what grounds to do you
              > purport
              > > that. Communism is not a system of government. It is notasmuch
              an
              > > economic system either. It is a study of evolution. It was the
              > first
              > > scientific analysis of historical progress. . This will
              eventually
              > > lead to the stage when only one class is left. Then no
              government
              > > will be required to protect the interests of the ruling class.
              > >
              > > In mideaval times tell a feudal lord... the poet, the artisan,
              the
              > > middle class shall take his place in the hierarchy "a myht",
              with
              > > the same confidence he would proclaim.
              > >
              > > Tsar Nicholas II never thought that a quarryman from siberia
              would
              > > succeed his empire.
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > A classless society is a myth. As long humans have needs of
              > varied
              > > kind, then someone has to provide them. Hence different trades
              and
              > > professions with variable remunerations. If you classify the
              > > different occupations as classes then let it be. It is something
              > we
              > > have to live with. Communism does not dictate individual alone
              is
              > > responsible for his actions as opposed to Sartrean thoughts.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > "S.M.Jaffar" <jaffar_sm@> wrote:
              > > > I do not think there is a basic difference betwee the
              > two.What,
              > > at
              > > > present, divides them is the concept of an authoritarian
              > > dictatorship
              > > > introduced by Stalin in a communist system.Communism envisages
              > > > withering away of the state after the end of class conflict
              > > > worldwide.At this stage man will be really free and
              individually
              > > > responsible.S.M.Jaffar
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
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            • mohd sageer
              What shall the poet hold in envy of the artist s success or a chemist to hold for the physicist. . Your statement is interesting... but what is contentious
              Message 6 of 9 , May 12, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                "What shall the poet hold in envy of the artist's success or a
                chemist to hold for the physicist. ".

                Your statement is interesting... but what is contentious here is "do the poet and chemist pursue their field of activity for a living ?...will the state provide them for their daily existence ? If so at what rates ? Does physicist get higher pay than that of a poet ? or vice versa ?

                See, we are back to square one....

                Nobody seems to come up a theory that pragmatically make it possible economcial equality among people....



                Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@...> wrote:
                The current system of prevailing class antagonism strangles the
                individual, with shallowed minds trained more to distraction than to
                contemplation and abstract thought. Property mortgage, house rent,
                stock market, class politics, endless commercialization, heavy
                taxation, overproduction... how much space does this leave the
                individual to the fullfilment of his soul?

                Now, let us propound an alternative, on of those endless 'what ifs?'
                to end this debate and resort to commitment, the act beyond the word
                ( a tribute to sartre there).

                All materialistic inequality is removed. The individual transcends
                the government. He is left to himself. No Distraction. His
                obligations are only to himself, as all men have been equated on a
                class basis, his relationship with another individual will be beyond
                any motive of profit. The success of anyone will be solely the
                result of his merit as he has no priviliges of stature to propell
                him. This will not breed difference or classes. There shall be men
                in different fields, pursuing excellence for the fulfilment of their
                soul. What shall the poet hold in envy of the artist's success or a
                chemist to hold for the physicist. Where men compete on intellect,
                proposing, contradicting, progressing, collectively moving towards
                the "fulfilment of the soul" : it will be the idealization of all
                human pursuits.



                --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@...> wrote:
                >
                > I can only agree with you iwith your statement that man being a
                creation with concience and wisdom. But that is there all there is
                to it. We live with our inherent, physical limitations to our
                cababilities. In spite of our conciousness and hundred thousands of
                years evolutions we still live with different physical
                characterstics with each other. Black, white, tanned, short, tall.
                The variations extend to the level of intellegence, physical
                strength and so on. Marx refered to the division of class only in
                terms of trade , occupations and wealth..
                >
                > I am not sure how much i can agree when we say a classless
                society is the most ideal one. Human beings are different from
                other on several fronts. For animals the living pattern within the
                same species is the similar to each other.They eat the same food,
                use one kind of den, and so on. However as for human beings once
                the basic needs are achieved then two individuals go different
                directions in search of fullfiment of his soul .
                >
                > Let us hypothitically assume we created a society with similar
                materaistic abundance-food, shleter, clothing. Do you honestly
                believe the individuals will be satisfied. ?
                > At this stage their needs take on a different plateu. Some of
                them might go after spirituality. While other go in persuit of art
                music or literature. If not any of these, then something that is
                giving them meaning to life . This is essentially human nature. No
                amount of material wealth cannot fill these vacum .
                >
                > Here, following on their quest for fullfilment that is still
                unknown to him will give rise to the establishment of classes- this
                time it si only on a different level. That is, same people,
                identical wealth but with different pursuits.The saga of classes is
                likely to go on...
                >
                > Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@...> wrote:
                > Good reply. But you cite that "the structure of planets, living
                > things and non-living things on earth- they all follow a pattern
                > that is dictated by natural selection". However, these things are
                > not a part continuous evolution. The planets, the sun, the moon
                they
                > have been (since the time the process initiated) following the
                same
                > course over their history. The plants, the animals, they are the
                > neccesarily the same as they were 1000 years ago. The difference
                is
                > that these objects are not gifted with consciousness, they have
                not
                > conceptualized any such thing and their behavior, living habits,
                > have remaned stagnant over the centuries. But what about human
                > beings? No. Human beings evolve, from cave man, stone age, mideval
                > times, etc to this age. And an analysis of this process shows, as
                > marx stated: "The history of all hitherto existing society is the
                > history of class struggle. " Guess I have already said enough on
                > that in my previous thread.
                >
                >
                > --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hierarchy is a nautral phenomon. The universe cannot do away
                with
                > it. Look at the structure of planets, living things and non-
                living
                > things on earth- they all follow a pattern that is dictated by
                > natural selection. As for humans, vibrancy is the essense of
                their
                > existence. Taste, culture, dominance and subjugation- you name
                > everything- rule the charactristic of human bieng. As said we
                have
                > varying needs and those needs have to be provided by others. You
                or
                > I cannot be self contained-
                > >
                > > You wrote-" Marx only reported what he observed, that classes
                > are continually restructuring the hierarchy by overthrowing the
                > class above them"
                > >
                > > True, but each time a class is overthrown another one will be
                > replaced by the abscence of it. Changes defenetely are a cyclical
                > process. For a while we may exist as a classless society. Then
                soon
                > this will be replaced by a different sect who takes control of
                > least demanding workforce whose contribution to society is
                minimal.
                > >
                > > Because machines alone cannot do everything for us.
                > >
                > > In the end it is the material need that keeps us going as a
                > progressesive sociey. You t take the material element away- Then
                you
                > could be right. we live in a classless society.
                > >
                > > But can it happen ?
                > > Deeptanshu Jha <deeptanshujha@> wrote:
                > > "Classless society is a myth"? And on what grounds to do you
                > purport
                > > that. Communism is not a system of government. It is notasmuch
                an
                > > economic system either. It is a study of evolution. It was the
                > first
                > > scientific analysis of historical progress. . This will
                eventually
                > > lead to the stage when only one class is left. Then no
                government
                > > will be required to protect the interests of the ruling class.
                > >
                > > In mideaval times tell a feudal lord... the poet, the artisan,
                the
                > > middle class shall take his place in the hierarchy "a myht",
                with
                > > the same confidence he would proclaim.
                > >
                > > Tsar Nicholas II never thought that a quarryman from siberia
                would
                > > succeed his empire.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, mohd sageer <mohdsag88@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > A classless society is a myth. As long humans have needs of
                > varied
                > > kind, then someone has to provide them. Hence different trades
                and
                > > professions with variable remunerations. If you classify the
                > > different occupations as classes then let it be. It is something
                > we
                > > have to live with. Communism does not dictate individual alone
                is
                > > responsible for his actions as opposed to Sartrean thoughts.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > "S.M.Jaffar" <jaffar_sm@> wrote:
                > > > I do not think there is a basic difference betwee the
                > two.What,
                > > at
                > > > present, divides them is the concept of an authoritarian
                > > dictatorship
                > > > introduced by Stalin in a communist system.Communism envisages
                > > > withering away of the state after the end of class conflict
                > > > worldwide.At this stage man will be really free and
                individually
                > > > responsible.S.M.Jaffar
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
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                > > > Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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