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Re: [Sartre] Re: CDR

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  • Tommy Beavitt
    Hi Jamie, No, your comment is not trite. And anyway, this group has only one criterion that must be fulfilled by all posts - they must make explicit reference
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 17, 2005
      Hi Jamie,

      No, your comment is not trite. And anyway, this group has only one
      criterion that must be fulfilled by all posts - they must make explicit
      reference to Sartre's body of work. Which yours certainly did. So
      thanks and welcome.

      I do think that Sartre in his later work did make an attempt to
      integrate individual Man into his social world. However, for me that
      later work was misplaced because it appears to have been based on an
      assumption of concrete human relations grouped around materialistic
      production. Not that I think that this was irrelevant - far from it -
      but that in order to make this leap Sartre was forced to enter into a
      spirit of bad faith, the identification and rejection of which was so
      central to his earlier existentialist model.

      To respond more fully to your post, "concrete human relations" appears
      to have become exactly that to which Sartre's man must submit. In
      escaping from the bad faith of religion he was forced to resurrect it
      in the form of materialist production in order to find his concrete
      human relations.

      If I am right in this, I still don't know what Sartre could or should
      have done. It was clear - and still is - that his basic existentialist
      position lacked a properly formulated ethical dimension.

      Perhaps it really is only possible to add an ethical dimension to a
      philosophy once we have apprehended concrete social reality, rather
      than just its discrete phenomena. Perhaps Sartre and Marx were right,
      and concrete social reality is to be found in the materialist modes of
      production that perpetrate.

      Or perhaps we should instead be looking at the communication that takes
      place between the constituents of that social reality - and, in
      particular, the communication that takes place between the constituents
      of the social reality and the Other in contradistinction to whom that
      social reality is defined...

      Tommy


      Le Aug 5, 2005, à 14:38, jamie050805 a écrit :

      > Not to mention the fact that any hint of a God would negate the
      > responsibility an indivdual must take for his or her actions within
      > the 'cosmic panorama', reducing it to fearful obligation or selfish
      > optimism. The Reprieve alone points towards a more complete
      > ontological appreciation and understanding of "man [as] both an
      > individual and a social being" than any submission to an inexplicable
      > and unseen other. As you say, shame about the paragraph.
      >
      > By the by, I'm a newbie here. Nice to meet you all. Hope my comment
      > is not too trite!
      >
      > Jamie
      >
      >
      > --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <maryjomalo@y...> wrote:
      >> If only this paragraph had been left out. What a peculiar
      > statement,
      >> knowing that Sartre's entire work of existentialism and its future
      >> hinged on the non-existence of god, and also knowing that Sartre
      >> realized the inseparable conflict between our individual and social
      >> beings, others. Of course he excluded god. It was an accidental
      >> conclusion that became the source of all the angst! The cure is
      >> perpetual and conditional upon the contingencies of history,
      >> individual and social. The situation was already complicated. Who
      > is
      >> more anti-social than god?!?!
      >>
      >> "The tragedy of the philosophy of Jean-Paul Sartre lies in his
      >> irrational deification of the human person. By excluding God from
      > the
      >> cosmic panorama, he has made a ghastly creature out of man, one who
      >> knows not where he stands and what he must stand for. Sartre
      > likewise
      >> refused to completely recognize the fact that man is both an
      >> individual and a social being. In his attempt to magnify human
      >> individuality, he has fallen into a trap of positing antisocial
      >> values. The cure he prescribed for this malady only succeeded in
      >> complicating the situation."
      >>
      >> Mary Jo
      >>
      >>
      >> --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <maryjomalo@y...>
      > wrote:
      >>> --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Beavitt <tommy@s...> wrote:
      >>>
      >>> I would be very interested to return to the theme of the
      >> development
      >>> of Sartre's thought in the direction of Marxism, as per his
      >> Critique
      >>> of Dialectical Reason. I still haven't read this book, which
      > Sartre
      >>> regarded as his most important work...Is the basic existentialist
      >>> position outlined in Being and Nothingness developed or refuted
      > in
      >>> the Dialectic?
      >>>
      >>> Has anyone read any good commentaries on the Dialectic?
      >>> ******************************************************
      >>>
      >>> Tommy, here's a lengthy but interesting one from a source I often
      >>> frequent, since I haven't read CDR either:
      >>>
      >>> Sartrean Collective Authenticity: A Final Word
      >>>
      >>> The tragedy of human existence manifests itself in the perpetual
      >>> vacillation of man leading towards a life devoid of commitment.
      >> Man's
      >>> inability to demolish the bulwark of lukewarmness in himself
      > ushers
      >> a
      >>> predicament of insufferable meaninglessness that continues to
      > haunt
      >>> him until the day he bids an existential adieu. The viable jewels
      >> of
      >>> life remain untouched when man forgets his vocation of searching
      >> for
      >>> the truth of his existence.
      >>>
      >>> The Sartrean man realizes that there is more to existence than
      > mere
      >>> existing, and that there is more to life than mere living.
      >> Confronted
      >>> with the ambiguity, meaninglessness, and absurdity of his
      >> existence,
      >>> he then sets forth in a journey towards the rediscovery of his
      > real
      >>> self. He attempts to surpass himself, and imbedded in that
      >>> transcendence is the meaning he has been looking for in his life.
      >> The
      >>> search for meaning becomes an act of surpassing. The search for
      >>> meaning, then, becomes the search for authenticity.
      >>>
      >>> Early Sartrean thought leaves no room for individual
      > authenticity.
      >>> Sartre takes away from the individual the vaguest possibility of
      >>> achieving individual authenticity both in the ontological and in
      >> the
      >>> psychological level. Ontological, individual authenticity cannot
      > be
      >>> achieved for he argued that the individual cannot escape from the
      >>> tendency to act in bad faith. Neither can psychological,
      > individual
      >>> authenticity be achieved because the current social framework
      > does
      >>> not endow man the freedom to surpass himself. Indeed, Stuart Zane
      >>> Charme says, "Sartre's ordeal lay in fighting off the total
      >>> engulfment of his private self by his public civilized role in
      > the
      >>> society."
      >>>
      >>> The futility of the search for authenticity in early Sartre
      > becomes
      >>> an occasion to look for a feasible venue for authenticity. An
      >> initial
      >>> act of failing does not make one a failure. Confronted with an
      >>> impossibility of individual authenticity, the Sartrean man then
      >>> continues to explore other venues for authenticity. He then finds
      >>> refuge in an attempt to surpass the given situation and be
      >>> dialectically related with it so much so that while he embraces
      > the
      >>> limitation brought about by his world, he persists in fighting
      > for
      >>> his subjectivity. Thus opens before him the possibility of
      >> collective
      >>> authenticity. As Golomb writes, "we cannot change the ontological
      >>> impossibility of authenticity, but we can do our best to weaken
      > the
      >>> social forces that perpetuate our tendency to live in bad faith."
      >>>
      >>> Sartre turns from nothingness not to compassion or holiness, but
      > to
      >>> human freedom as realized in revolutionary activity. The dawn of
      >>> collective authenticity for the Sartrean man manifests itself in
      >> two
      >>> ways. First, he becomes authentic in his struggle to reconstruct
      >> the
      >>> social fabric which is not conducive to authenticity.
      >>>
      >>> Second, he becomes authentic when he establishes relations of
      > real
      >>> brotherhood based on freedom with other people in an
      > authentically
      >>> reconstituted society.
      >>>
      >>> In the society envisioned by Sartre, the Other is no longer a
      >> threat
      >>> to my existence. Early Sartre argues that the freedom of the
      > other
      >>> jeopardizes my freedom. The look of the Other objectifies me and
      > by
      >>> taking away my subjectivity, I lose the ultimate individuality I
      >> have
      >>> and thereupon lose my self. Late Sartre submits that in a society
      >>> characterized by scarcity, the other imperils my existence since
      > we
      >>> are both fighting for the same necessities. However, such will
      > not
      >> be
      >>> the case in Sartre's envisioned utopian society which is
      >>> characterized by sufficiency. As Golomb puts it:
      >>>
      >>> Mutual generosity, respect and genuine feelings cement such
      >>> relations. I choose to help the other become authentic by not
      >> trying
      >>> to dominate her and by regarding her as an autonomous person who
      >> can
      >>> act simultaneously as object and subject in relation to myself.
      > The
      >>> other's otherness is accommodated but not assimilated in my self
      >> and
      >>> my life.
      >>>
      >>> Sartre considers that one's relationship with the Other can only
      >> come
      >>> about through human praxis. Not abandoning his belief in the
      >> capacity
      >>> of the individual to induce change, late Sartre asserts the need
      >> for
      >>> human agency in historically conditioned production. The
      > formation
      >> of
      >>> the class, the modes and relations of production, and even human
      >>> history can only come about through human praxis:
      >>>
      >>> Our comprehension of the Other is never contemplative; it is only
      > a
      >>> moment of our praxis, a way of living - in struggle or in
      >> complicity -
      >>> the concrete, human relation which unites us to him.
      >>>
      >>> In view of the problem of the method to be employed in his quest
      >> for
      >>> a society favoring his search for authenticity, Sartre submits
      > that
      >>> Humanistic Marxism offers the most appropriate way for such an
      >>> endeavor. He considers Marxism as the only philosophy capable of
      >>> rebuilding a new order, one in which the temptations for acts of
      >> bad
      >>> faith are diminished. Moreover, he proposes that Marxist society
      > is
      >>> the only society that does not reward acts of bad faith. However,
      >> the
      >>> Marxism of Sartre's time was characterized by dormancy resolving
      >> from
      >>> the dogmatization of certain tenets which are not originally
      >> Marx's.
      >>> He then envisioned an incorporation of the Existentialist notion
      > of
      >>> man and freedom into the dehumanized Marxist anthropology for it
      > to
      >>> better serve its quest of laying ground for a real philosophy of
      >>> freedom. Thus arises Humanistic Marxism.
      >>>
      >>> While man cannot fully achieve collective authenticity,
      > temptations
      >>> for bad faith will at least be minimized in the societal level in
      > a
      >>> Marxist society. Since the capitalist paradigm has succeeded in
      >>> playing up the necessity of role-playing and other acts of bad
      >> faith
      >>> and in diminishing the potency of human agency in social
      > relations,
      >>> Sartre submits that the Marxist paradigm offers the most concrete
      >>> steps towards social reconstruction. He views Marxism as the most
      >>> theoretically effective means towards a real philosophy of
      > freedom.
      >>>
      >>> Sartre argues that Humanistic Marxism will not be forever
      >> warranted;
      >>> it will fade away at the dawn of a real philosophy of freedom. In
      >> the
      >>> same manner that Sartre suggested the dissolution of
      > Existentialism
      >>> to Marxist thought, he prognosticates the inevitability of the
      >>> dissolution of Marxism in the face of a real philosophy of
      > freedom.
      >>> Sartre's espousal of Marxism is then but transitory. He sees it
      > as
      >> a
      >>> palliative cure to bourgeois inauthenticity while at the same
      > time
      >>> serving as a means towards the establishment of a real philosophy
      >> of
      >>> freedom. Sartre remarks:
      >>>
      >>> We cannot go beyond so long as the transformations of social
      >>> relations and technical progress have not freed man from the yoke
      >> of
      >>> scarcity…As soon as there will exist for everyone a margin of
      > real
      >>> freedom beyond the production of life, Marxism will have lived
      > out
      >>> its span; a philosophy of freedom will take place. But we have no
      >>> means, no intellectual instrument, no concrete experience which
      >>> allows us to conceive of this freedom or of this philosophy.
      >>>
      >>> In another part of the same work, Sartre writes:
      >>>
      >>> Our historical task, at the heart of this polyvalent world, is to
      >>> bring closer the moment when History will have only one meaning,
      >> when
      >>> it will tend to be dissolved in the concrete men who will make it
      >> in
      >>> common.
      >>>
      >>> Collective authenticity is thus the political project of Sartrean
      >>> philosophy. His plan to incorporate significant Existentialist
      >> theses
      >>> to his newly-espoused Marxist thought is envisioned to provide a
      >>> political tool for the achievement of an authentic society.
      > Sartre
      >> is
      >>> not just concerned with mere speculative discussion of a society
      >>> favoring authenticity. He is more concerned with seeing such a
      >>> society making a Phoenician renascence from the ashes of the
      >>> contemporary social order. Towards the end of the chapter
      > analyzing
      >>> the Sartrean notion of authenticity, Golomb succinctly notes:
      >>>
      >>> Sartre's political activity aims at creating a social fabric
      > which
      >>> will encourage and assist each individual to engage in self-
      >> creation.
      >>> He envisages a just and free society that overcomes hunger and
      >>> scarcity. Such a society will greatly lessen the appeal of acts
      > of
      >>> bad faith.
      >>>
      >>> The question of Sartre's success in such a project cannot be
      >>> integrated in this thesis; it necessitates further research. The
      >> main
      >>> aim of this thesis is to point out the political project of
      > Sartre
      >>> and evaluate his success in laying the groundwork for a method to
      >> be
      >>> employed in the realization of such an endeavor. As to the
      > question
      >>> whether collective authenticity is a realistic mission, it is
      > wise
      >> to
      >>> agree with Golomb when he says:
      >>>
      >>> Ultimate failure to achieve authenticity is irrelevant because it
      >> is
      >>> the striving, the overcoming of difficulties and the acceptance
      > of
      >>> defeats that endows life with structure, unity and meaning…Thus
      >>> authenticity as self-creation is on a par with authenticity as
      > self-
      >>> destruction. To become author of one's own self is ipso facto to
      > be
      >>> author of one's death.
      >>>
      >>> The tragedy of the philosophy of Jean-Paul Sartre lies in his
      >>> irrational deification of the human person. By excluding God from
      >> the
      >>> cosmic panorama, he has made a ghastly creature out of man, one
      > who
      >>> knows not where he stands and what he must stand for. Sartre
      >> likewise
      >>> refused to completely recognize the fact that man is both an
      >>> individual and a social being. In his attempt to magnify human
      >>> individuality, he has fallen into a trap of positing antisocial
      >>> values. The cure he prescribed for this malady only succeeded in
      >>> complicating the situation.
      >>>
      >>> The fulfillment of Sartre's dream of universal brotherhood
      >>> characterizing collective authenticity eludes present human
      >> history.
      >>> Notwithstanding all the defects and limitations of Sartrean
      >> thought,
      >>> the jewels of the same continue to sparkle in the hearts and
      > minds
      >> of
      >>> people who fully believe that only authenticity can induce the
      > dawn
      >>> of man as man. Sartre's assertion of man's capacity to transcend
      >> the
      >>> limitations of his being is enough to provide an impetus for a
      >>> reconsideration of the long-reviled Sartrean thought. Sartre has
      >>> pointed the way; only history will witness whether somebody will
      >> trod
      >>> such a path.
      >>>
      >>> http://www.geocities.com/sartresite/
      >>>
      >>> Mary Jo
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • fifth_element_leeloo
      If what I am about to say sounds somehow unsuitable, I do apologize. Soon, and this is no sudden decision, I am going to commit suicide. I have long pondered
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 20, 2006
        If what I am about to say sounds somehow unsuitable, I do apologize.
        Soon, and this is no sudden decision, I am going to commit suicide. I
        have long pondered on this, I have already made my decision. Even
        though to some people this might sound strange, I would like to do
        this together with someone.
        Normally, there are still many links between one who wants to rush
        away and the others, this is why those brave enough to bring it to an
        end are not many. I mean, most of them are caught in heaven knows
        what mental constructions which are vital, builders of sense,
        meaning. Affective relations, feelings of responsibility, is that
        right? Usually, man wants to live till he realizes that he is left
        alone, like he's always been anyway,
        But, the thing is, I have no place among people, not even among those
        fed up with life. It's a sad truth, but it's the truth. If I don't
        feel at my ease in society, it's because I don't show myself as I'd
        wish to. The obligation of wearing a mask, of playing a role and an
        inner hatred for this make any society to be like a burden to me and
        I'm happy only in my own society because only then I can be my true
        self. You can't do this among people and nobody is true.
        I don't want to do this alone because I want my life fulfilled till
        the end. To be alone is pathetic, same as to die alone. I don't want
        to lose myself in such a pathetic way, in a corner.
        Don't suspect me as having an abnormal psyche, I am not mad, not at
        all. My decision was taken „consciously," so to speak.
        Is there anyone somewhere out there wishing to accompany me in death?
        I am waiting for an answer. Thank you.
      • Chuka Ekwueme
        Dear freind, i do not wish 2 accompany u 2 death,if ur tired of life,go ahead,will c u wen i get thr. Cheers. ...
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 20, 2006
          Dear freind,
          i do not wish 2 accompany u 2 death,if ur tired of
          life,go ahead,will c u wen i get thr.

          Cheers.

          --- fifth_element_leeloo
          <fifth_element_leeloo@...> wrote:

          > If what I am about to say sounds somehow unsuitable,
          > I do apologize.
          > Soon, and this is no sudden decision, I am going to
          > commit suicide. I
          > have long pondered on this, I have already made my
          > decision. Even
          > though to some people this might sound strange, I
          > would like to do
          > this together with someone.
          > Normally, there are still many links between one who
          > wants to rush
          > away and the others, this is why those brave enough
          > to bring it to an
          > end are not many. I mean, most of them are caught in
          > heaven knows
          > what mental constructions which are vital, builders
          > of sense,
          > meaning. Affective relations, feelings of
          > responsibility, is that
          > right? Usually, man wants to live till he realizes
          > that he is left
          > alone, like he's always been anyway,
          > But, the thing is, I have no place among people, not
          > even among those
          > fed up with life. It's a sad truth, but it's the
          > truth. If I don't
          > feel at my ease in society, it's because I don't
          > show myself as I'd
          > wish to. The obligation of wearing a mask, of
          > playing a role and an
          > inner hatred for this make any society to be like a
          > burden to me and
          > I'm happy only in my own society because only then I
          > can be my true
          > self. You can't do this among people and nobody is
          > true.
          > I don't want to do this alone because I want my life
          > fulfilled till
          > the end. To be alone is pathetic, same as to die
          > alone. I don't want
          > to lose myself in such a pathetic way, in a corner.
          > Don't suspect me as having an abnormal psyche, I am
          > not mad, not at
          > all. My decision was taken „consciously," so to
          > speak.
          > Is there anyone somewhere out there wishing to
          > accompany me in death?
          > I am waiting for an answer. Thank you.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Aaron Bremyer
          Before taking such a drastic--and final--step such as ending your life, why not try living without any masks? You say you don t feel at ease in society--and
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 20, 2006
            Before taking such a drastic--and final--step such as ending your
            life, why not try living without any masks? You say you don't feel
            at ease in society--and many don't, of course--because you don't show
            yourself as you'd like. That's a conscious decision. Living
            authentically, outside of bad faith, is difficult, perhaps even
            impossible to do ALL of the time. Go against convention. Present
            yourself to others as you see yourself. I don't suggest it's easy,
            or even easier. In fact, as Sartre tells us, it's more difficult to
            live authentically! But you still have options to exhaust before
            death, at which point, all options--all possibilities--are closed.
            Forever.

            Hell is other people, of course. Life can be hellish. But in life,
            there is the possibility of beauty, perhaps only in passing or
            fleetingly. Disclose yourself to others authentically, and perhaps a
            fit society will emerge; perhaps you will find like-minded
            companions, or at least companionship that is bearable. There is too
            much unchosen death in this broken world, my friend. As difficult
            and terrible as life is/can be, it is also ripe with possibilities.
            In death, there are none. In life, we are free--absolutely,
            radically free. And this is dreadful. But it is also magnificent in
            that we--in life--are always in a state of becoming (I am what I am
            not. I am not what I am). In death, we are merely a thing, an in-
            itself. No freedom. No choice.

            You say that there are few brave enough to bring their own life to an
            end. Please consider that, in death, we flee all responsibility, for
            all time. In life, we can choose to embrace our responsibilities (to
            ourselves, to others, to the world)--this, to me, takes great courage
            because it is not easy. Often, it is terrifying. In confronting the
            world and our responsibilities, we can become heroic. In death,
            there is nothing.

            I don't presume to be able to tell you what to do--but I do want to
            remind you that there are options (endless options) besides the
            taking of your own life. What might you give to others, to the
            world, to yourself? In death, what do you take from others and the
            world? Please, consider those options deeply and with courage. I
            wish you well. I wish you strength to confront and endure the
            suffering of this world.


            On 20 Jul 2006, at 1:10 PM, fifth_element_leeloo wrote:
            If what I am about to say sounds somehow unsuitable, I do apologize.
            > Soon, and this is no sudden decision, I am going to commit suicide. I
            > have long pondered on this, I have already made my decision. Even
            > though to some people this might sound strange, I would like to do
            > this together with someone.
            > Normally, there are still many links between one who wants to rush
            > away and the others, this is why those brave enough to bring it to an
            > end are not many. I mean, most of them are caught in heaven knows
            > what mental constructions which are vital, builders of sense,
            > meaning. Affective relations, feelings of responsibility, is that
            > right? Usually, man wants to live till he realizes that he is left
            > alone, like he's always been anyway,
            > But, the thing is, I have no place among people, not even among those
            > fed up with life. It's a sad truth, but it's the truth. If I don't
            > feel at my ease in society, it's because I don't show myself as I'd
            > wish to. The obligation of wearing a mask, of playing a role and an
            > inner hatred for this make any society to be like a burden to me and
            > I'm happy only in my own society because only then I can be my true
            > self. You can't do this among people and nobody is true.
            > I don't want to do this alone because I want my life fulfilled till
            > the end. To be alone is pathetic, same as to die alone. I don't want
            > to lose myself in such a pathetic way, in a corner.
            > Don't suspect me as having an abnormal psyche, I am not mad, not at
            > all. My decision was taken �consciously," so to speak.
            > Is there anyone somewhere out there wishing to accompany me in death?
            > I am waiting for an answer. Thank you.
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Gail Jeidy
            who has hurt you? ... From: fifth_element_leeloo To: Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 10:10 AM Subject:
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 20, 2006
              who has hurt you?

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: fifth_element_leeloo <fifth_element_leeloo@...>
              To: <Sartre@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 10:10 AM
              Subject: [Sartre] hi


              If what I am about to say sounds somehow unsuitable, I do apologize.
              Soon, and this is no sudden decision, I am going to commit suicide. I
              have long pondered on this, I have already made my decision. Even
              though to some people this might sound strange, I would like to do
              this together with someone.
              Normally, there are still many links between one who wants to rush
              away and the others, this is why those brave enough to bring it to an
              end are not many. I mean, most of them are caught in heaven knows
              what mental constructions which are vital, builders of sense,
              meaning. Affective relations, feelings of responsibility, is that
              right? Usually, man wants to live till he realizes that he is left
              alone, like he's always been anyway,
              But, the thing is, I have no place among people, not even among those
              fed up with life. It's a sad truth, but it's the truth. If I don't
              feel at my ease in society, it's because I don't show myself as I'd
              wish to. The obligation of wearing a mask, of playing a role and an
              inner hatred for this make any society to be like a burden to me and
              I'm happy only in my own society because only then I can be my true
              self. You can't do this among people and nobody is true.
              I don't want to do this alone because I want my life fulfilled till
              the end. To be alone is pathetic, same as to die alone. I don't want
              to lose myself in such a pathetic way, in a corner.
              Don't suspect me as having an abnormal psyche, I am not mad, not at
              all. My decision was taken "consciously," so to speak.
              Is there anyone somewhere out there wishing to accompany me in death?
              I am waiting for an answer. Thank you.






              To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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            • Irina
              so you wanna choose the easy way out...well..your choice! just like dear ol sartre said...life is made of choices, and you gotta LIVE with it(an ironic chose
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 21, 2006
                so you wanna choose the easy way out...well..your
                choice! just like dear ol' sartre said...life is made
                of choices, and you gotta LIVE with it(an ironic chose
                of words right now, but very suitable). You're not the
                only one that thinks the world is a big playground and
                you're watching the other kids having fun without you.
                Your place is not amongst humans? You think killing
                yourself will place you into nothingness? Into this
                abyss of a very better world filled with only ideas
                and utopia? read NO EXIT? what if end up into the
                worst possible HELL with a crowd of people forcing you
                to speak, hearing your every thought, pushing you to
                commit, or better yet..a whole lot of nothing, a
                massive sound of silence and pressure of void
                thoughts? I'M ALONE...I'M ALONE...As a by the
                way....WE LIVE TOGETHER AND ALWAYS DIE ALONE! Here's a
                challange: try! Try living, try bearring this absurde
                existence, try being better then all these actors, try
                making your own stage! TRY LIVING FOR A CHANGE, this
                is the real DARE, not just pulling the plug! I thought
                I was dead myself so many times...thought suicide
                would be an exist, an end to this absurde, grose world
                with fake people and masks! But you know what? I'm not
                a coward! I'm not gonna let ANYBODY nor ANYTHING, not
                even my crazy thoughts take away the biggest gift
                ever:LIFE, and the chance to change something, to make
                a difference...and by that...I started with me!
                I've attached an essay..it was written in a very low,
                very close to suicide mood. I'll let you write me back
                and share some feed-back..that..if you're still among
                us.

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • FRANCIS WINTON
                Having had cancer, depression, a mentally abusive childhood and a ludicrously busy job I lost all sense of selfworth and self esteem. A failed marriage was the
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 21, 2006
                  Having had cancer, depression, a mentally abusive childhood and a ludicrously busy job I lost all sense of selfworth and self esteem. A failed marriage was the icing on the cake. However for the first time in my life I was able to be brutally honest with myself about my own failings (although I was kind to myself as well in that I did not rubbish myself but said "this is the situation. What are you going to do about it?")and this enabled me to sweep out so many dysfunctional attitudes which I had held on to. Yes I held on to them. I had to take responsibility for them rather than fall into the trap of being a victim. It was empowering and energising and put me in control of my life. I then read the Myth of Sisyphus by Camus which articulated for me so much of what I'd been experiencing. We live in an absurd world wanting meaning and a place in the universe but there is none. We have to make up our own meaning. In particular we have to face up to our own death (having
                  melanoma was helpful in this respect) and come to terms that we will have no eternal life or meaning and accept this is it. This leads to Revolt against the place we find ourselves in but also generates incredible Freedom. From there we can find our heart and who we are and develop the confidence and self esteem to live being much truer to ourselves and living life with Passion. It has taken me a few decades to get to this point but it is possible. Suicide will remove this opportunity from you.

                  fifth_element_leeloo <fifth_element_leeloo@...> wrote: If what I am about to say sounds somehow unsuitable, I do apologize.
                  Soon, and this is no sudden decision, I am going to commit suicide. I
                  have long pondered on this, I have already made my decision. Even
                  though to some people this might sound strange, I would like to do
                  this together with someone.
                  Normally, there are still many links between one who wants to rush
                  away and the others, this is why those brave enough to bring it to an
                  end are not many. I mean, most of them are caught in heaven knows
                  what mental constructions which are vital, builders of sense,
                  meaning. Affective relations, feelings of responsibility, is that
                  right? Usually, man wants to live till he realizes that he is left
                  alone, like he's always been anyway,
                  But, the thing is, I have no place among people, not even among those
                  fed up with life. It's a sad truth, but it's the truth. If I don't
                  feel at my ease in society, it's because I don't show myself as I'd
                  wish to. The obligation of wearing a mask, of playing a role and an
                  inner hatred for this make any society to be like a burden to me and
                  I'm happy only in my own society because only then I can be my true
                  self. You can't do this among people and nobody is true.
                  I don't want to do this alone because I want my life fulfilled till
                  the end. To be alone is pathetic, same as to die alone. I don't want
                  to lose myself in such a pathetic way, in a corner.
                  Don't suspect me as having an abnormal psyche, I am not mad, not at
                  all. My decision was taken „consciously," so to speak.
                  Is there anyone somewhere out there wishing to accompany me in death?
                  I am waiting for an answer. Thank you.






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • khadim_soomro
                  ... very emphetic words. I really empressed.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 19, 2006
                    --- In Sartre@yahoogroups.com, Irina <irislover_s@...> wrote:
                    >Hi
                    very emphetic words.
                    I really empressed.
                    >
                    > so you wanna choose the easy way out...well..your
                    > choice! just like dear ol' sartre said...life is made
                    > of choices, and you gotta LIVE with it(an ironic chose
                    > of words right now, but very suitable). You're not the
                    > only one that thinks the world is a big playground and
                    > you're watching the other kids having fun without you.
                    > Your place is not amongst humans? You think killing
                    > yourself will place you into nothingness? Into this
                    > abyss of a very better world filled with only ideas
                    > and utopia? read NO EXIT? what if end up into the
                    > worst possible HELL with a crowd of people forcing you
                    > to speak, hearing your every thought, pushing you to
                    > commit, or better yet..a whole lot of nothing, a
                    > massive sound of silence and pressure of void
                    > thoughts? I'M ALONE...I'M ALONE...As a by the
                    > way....WE LIVE TOGETHER AND ALWAYS DIE ALONE! Here's a
                    > challange: try! Try living, try bearring this absurde
                    > existence, try being better then all these actors, try
                    > making your own stage! TRY LIVING FOR A CHANGE, this
                    > is the real DARE, not just pulling the plug! I thought
                    > I was dead myself so many times...thought suicide
                    > would be an exist, an end to this absurde, grose world
                    > with fake people and masks! But you know what? I'm not
                    > a coward! I'm not gonna let ANYBODY nor ANYTHING, not
                    > even my crazy thoughts take away the biggest gift
                    > ever:LIFE, and the chance to change something, to make
                    > a difference...and by that...I started with me!
                    > I've attached an essay..it was written in a very low,
                    > very close to suicide mood. I'll let you write me back
                    > and share some feed-back..that..if you're still among
                    > us.
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
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