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Re: [Sartre] Nietzsche and consumption and Sartre and Politics

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  • Leon McQuaid
    Is there anyone out there that can talk to me about Simone De Beauvoir, especially about her philosophy on love and intersubjectivity. ...
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 1, 2003
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      Is there anyone out there that can talk to me about Simone De Beauvoir,
      especially about her philosophy on love and intersubjectivity.






      >From: HOOVER460@...
      >Reply-To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
      >To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [Sartre] Nietzsche and consumption and Sartre and Politics
      >Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:37:40 EST
      >
      >Richard: Where did you get the numbers, 95% in U.S. are working class and
      >5%
      >weathy? the wealthy class produces theology or anything else? You seem to
      >have a knack for fabrication generally. and more specially about the middle
      >east!
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >


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    • Rogelio Braga
      Dear Richard, Your letter clearly states now that I indeed a being-in-the-world. Please don’t be bothered by the last sentence in my letter, its just one of
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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        Dear Richard,

        Your letter clearly states now that I indeed a being-in-the-world. Please don�t be bothered by the last sentence in my letter, its just one of the good things Yahoo gave to its users��Yahoo Signature� (to make your emails more personalized). The sentence contains what I personally believe in writing and in human relationship, and it contains nothing that will offend you or those who will receive my letters. No poetry can hurt people as beautiful as you. (I cannot translate it for it was written in my language; the sentence will loss its soul in translation.)



        I arrived in the conclusion that you are inconsistent in your letter by following this thought: You started your letter by claiming that you will not subject yourself to the reducing mechanism of �yes� and �no�. I presume that the reducing mechanism of that binary opposition is what the expected and commonly accepted meaning of �yes� or �no�, and their respective stand in the sides of the poles in every issue. But I didn�t think that you want to stay neutral. You construct your own meaning that lies behind �yes� and �no�. So, the sentence introduced your letter, and it tells how should ordinary mortals like me read it.

        You said: �I will argue I support Nietzsche in the desire to say yes to taking risk and jumping off a cliff and getting out of the paradigm of respect, trust, theology, and ethics in life and one is always and not yet saying yes to life by Being in the world and Being in there as the in its there-alone.� Let me go first on the Nietzsche thing: jumping off a cliff and getting out of the paradigm of respect, trust, theology, and ethics in life without any profundity simply means killing yourself, to be dead, be a past (and I presume this is also in connection, or could explain Nietzsche�s �moral� in your entire letter). Only Superman can jump off a cliff and stay being alive afterwards (even Frudo can�t fly). The second idea in the sentence, the �always and not yet saying yes to life� is being in a void (or if there�s a term that signifies a stage in some thing that has a potentiality to exist and already existing, then that is.) I took this perspective of yours in understanding all the �yes� and �no� in your entire letter. (That is a kind of love letter I always dream to receive in my life.)

        You are the most sublime contradiction, darling. In �Ain�t no shame if you�re ahead of the game,� the �you�re� is not the Speaker who pronounced the statement, it was said to him by another person, by influence or persuasion maybe; even if it is a thinking aloud expression, its just the same. Put in reverse: someone, or a music video, or a marketing strategy will tell me, �Ain�t no shame if you�re ahead of the game� does not exactly lead to my �Being in the world�and I�m aware of my body and its movement, touching, and breathing.� The I now is not exactly me� �Hell is other man,� as someone said it on stage.

        Marketing strategy�s end is to get and retain customer and not the pursuit of Being and human freedom. Honestly, I don�t see the clarity of your point in ��you will understand the accumulation of wealth is the problem and not consumer consumption and their betrayal of religious values��Multinational corporation�s (MNCs) wealth, I guess didn�t came from some diamond mines in Africa or in a spice trade in the Muluccas or in the Opium Trade in China. Perhaps, the wealth came from �Beings� (or they call it "the market�) through consumer consumption (okay, its �buying�, darling). Consumers with their purchasing power is calle, I think, "Customers". There are thousands of branded (include the unbranded) shoes and I choose Nike (guilty of unfair labor practice in Vietnam� so what, Puff Daddy�s dancers in his MTV wear it!)� is that what you call �projecting possibilities of the freedom of choice and this is all Nietzsche and Heidegger, and Camus and its you and I�? I think even the not-so-brilliant-but-deadlyhandsome-novelist like Camus (I agree with Susan Sontag) will not agree with you.

        Your arguments just support its preceding sentence.

        You speak of �Exercise my own creating freedom of choice in my own potential, projecting possibilities� then �Say yes to Palestine as a free democratic state� is exactly �your wisdom ends when your politics begins.� Free democratic state is like independence, it is something you fought for, you die for: like your body in a solemn, and holy, and cathartic explosion in a bus full of Israel people (just for the purpose of this discussion only ha. We also have exploding bus here.) Free democratic state is not given, or a birthday gift, or a colonizer�s promise after an enlightenment (like what the Imperialist United States did to our country after World World II.) The �Say yes��statement is not from a Palestinian, but from you, darling dear Richard.

        And hey, what�s with between Sharon and catholic priests �sexually abusing� children? Sharon acts in behalf of his people, and I don�t think the same with catholic priest. Honestly, given the chance, I will �sexually abused� beautiful kids such as Daniel Radcliffe (Harry Potter) and Jamie Bell (Billy Elliot). Imagine: Daniel Radcliffe or Jamie Bell naked in a confession booth, and its so quiet and no other eyes that will stare and judge you two doing it except those plaster of Paris eyes of soul-less religious icons�oh my God, that is, I think,like pleasure cannot be uttered even by Homer or Jorie Graham. How can you say no to those beautiful beings? Isn�t it having sex with a pre-teen is a Bad Faith? What if I desire his body and his helplessness? What if I need him to want me? Sometimes there are more to life � oh forgive a fag�s mouth� than your unchecked bourgeois sensibility and academic discourses, Richard dear. Did Genet (as seen though his works) live in Bad Faith?

        And about labor power things, isn�t it when its �legal� it has your consent? Is it the purpose of social security systems, trade unions, labor parties, tripartite agreements, International Labor Organization�s �decent work� to protect the rights of everybody in a capitalist world?

        Traffic jams in Manila and California is not exactly the same. I don�t know how you feel when you caught in a heavy traffic in California (Maybe: �What the f**k, my time is being wasted!�) But when I am caught in heavy traffic in Manila, I always thought: �Sana nasa California na lang ako!� (Translated: �I wish I am in California!�) Or � Sana naging state na lang ng Amerika ang Pilipinas tulad ng California!� (Translated: �I wish Philippines is state of the United States like California�.) I really don�t know how to call it, or explain it in terms of Sartre�s philosophy. I hope you could share your ideas (oh, please don�t tell a Hollywood Film can explain the realities of my existence, I had enough.) Did Sartre write something about colonialism or post-colonialism experience and consciousness? Is there a connection between Sartre�s ideas and Orientalism? These questions bothers me always (but not yet :P ) everytime I�m with this 3-hour journey.

        Oh dear Kowalski, I don�t eat potato chips, its bad for my figure. I would love to drink with you but I prefer tequila or Ginebra San Miguel Gin in pomelo juice. Thanks for the offer, anyway. And thank you for your ideas.

        And dear Richard, seriously, Genet and I have the same sexual orientation.

        Mwah,

        Rogelio Braga





        P.S.

        The waiter smiled on your tip, not to you.










        "May mga pangungusap na hindi mauudlot ng di-pag-imik;Hindi makayayanig ang hindi mo pagsambit ng nais kong marinig." -Rebecca T. A�onuevo


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      • Tommy Beavitt
        ... I have read her novel, The Mandarins, in which she details life lived as a Left Bank intellectual and describes in some detail her love affair with an
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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          >Is there anyone out there that can talk to me about Simone De Beauvoir,
          >especially about her philosophy on love and intersubjectivity.

          I have read her novel, The Mandarins, in which she details life lived
          as a Left Bank intellectual and describes in some detail her love
          affair with an American when visiting there. There is not much about
          JPS in it!

          Neither is there much overt philosophy although we do get a keen
          sense of her views on intersubjectivity. It is quite a sad book, I
          think. There is a feeling that although she knows this is how it is
          she wishes it was not so.

          I have not read her Second Sex, the original feminist bible. But it
          is on my reading list!

          Tommy
          --
          -
          http://www.scoraig.com

          Orange mobile 07966 294458; Vodafone 07787 158073
          Call me and I will call you back
        • Stephen Cowley
          Thanks for sharing your experiences with us Amy. It seems like David Ahenakew made some stupid remarks - especially for a public representative, who must
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 2, 2003
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            Thanks for sharing your experiences with us Amy. It seems like David
            Ahenakew made some stupid remarks - especially for a public representative,
            who must expect his remarks in a speech to be quoted. He should clearly
            withdraw them and apologise, and the community he represents should be
            asked to dissociate themselves from his stated views.

            I learned a lot myself from Will Kymlicka, a Canadian who has written about
            first peoples in his book Liberalism, community and Culture. You'd probably
            enjoy reading it, as it's more nearly politicisable in a modern context than
            Sartre's work.

            Best Wishes and Happy New Year
            Stephen


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Amy Wing <loconito442@...>
            To: <Sartre@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 2:45 PM
            Subject: Re: [Sartre] Nietzsche and consumption and Sartre and Politics


            > Hi, I am new to the group and very interested in the
            > philosophy of both Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone De
            > Beauvoir. Your question connects beautifully to an
            > issue that I have lost allot of sleep over the last
            > few weeks, since it has to do with both love and
            > tolorence for our cultural, economic, etc...
            > differences. Senator David Ahenakew, a Native leader
            > who has been very active, and effective in his fight
            > for bettering education in Native communities, said
            > some pretty contraversal things to a reporter on Dec.
            > 13th about the holocaust. I am sure that the comments
            > were pretty hurtful to the Jewish community and I hate
            > it when someone or a group is hurt. The thing is
            > though is that the press who were reporting the story,
            > were pretending that they had never heard something so
            > horrible as what David Ahenakew said in all there life
            > -ya right- and were provoking people into rage with
            > the way they were covering the event. David Ahenakew
            > is the next thing to being publicly executed, and the
            > Jewish community are basically being told how they
            > should feel about the situation before they even had a
            > chance to hear what David Ahenakew meant by his
            > comments in order to decide for themselves how they
            > will react. Let me explain how the press is
            > responsible; The press is leaving out that David
            > Ahenakew said that he did not support Hitler in the
            > interview and are putting there own words in front of
            > his words. For example; They are saying that he said
            > that Hitler was right "for frying Jews" when he was
            > said that is "why" Hitler did it (He was saying that
            > the Germans were being oppressed by the Jewish
            > people). Please, I know that it sounds awful, and the
            > holocaust was terrible and awful, but how are we going
            > to live in freedom if we keep promoting hate which in
            > turn makes people enslave others that do not share
            > their experience. Although I believe that love
            > produces freedom, Simon De Beauvoir is very skeptical
            > about a sincere Love for one another. From what I can
            > understand she believes that we love freedom and that
            > we kind of transfer that love onto people that give us
            > freedom whether it be in the form of a servant or a
            > master. (I am totally paraphrasing from "The Second
            > Sex"). I think though, since what will allow us to be
            > free is culturally defined it looks like we must work
            > inside of concepts such as love, which I do not
            > believe and Simone would not believe is some universal
            > form of reason. I am getting ahead of myself. After I
            > got no-where by contacting media and newspapers and
            > asking them to mention that David Ahenakew also said
            > that he did not support Hitler, and that I did not
            > think that promoting hate against David Ahenakew was
            > going to promote peace between cultures, I wrote it on
            > a sign and went downtown Ottawa to tell people that
            > they did not hear the whole story. The sign said-David
            > Ahenakew also said that he did not support Hitler/Stop
            > Hate/Love/Show compassion at Christmas/. See, the
            > media won't accept his apology or his explantion and
            > are saying that his comments are self explanatory. No
            > they are not!! We have experienced the world
            > differently than David Ahenakew. What kind of world do
            > we live in that does not accept apologies, does not
            > let people explain, and are ready to crucifie the
            > first person who becomes vulnerable to public
            > disapproval. I found out on Dec. 24th from a news
            > station that it was the speech before the interview
            > that the press are angry about, but I no longer buy
            > that, because that is not what they are reporting.
            > They are reporting the comments he made in the
            > interview with James Parker. The one lessen that I
            > have learned through all of this is that the press do
            > not tell the truth, and they are the ones forming our
            > concepts about what is going on in the world. I wrote
            > Stop Hate/Love on my sign because even though I know
            > that Love is a subjective term, I had to use it in the
            > way Christian people understand it in order to get my
            > message across. I guess actually it was used as a
            > weapon, like I believe Christianity has used it. I was
            > thinking last night about how words are weapons. See,
            > David Ahenakew may be "stripped" of his Order of
            > Canada. Being stripped is a very violent thing to have
            > happen to you. It is kind of like he was awarded with
            > something that he could be hit with later. I know now
            > that I do not want to be awarded with the Order of
            > Canada. I really see what Simone and Jean-Paul are
            > getting at by being pessimisticstic about love. I do
            > believe though that love is possible and that it is
            > key to becoming free. I just think that maybe we need
            > to look at the fact that it means different things to
            > different people and that David Ahenakew also desires
            > the kind of love that has been culturally defined for
            > him. Regardless of the societal message in this whole
            > thing, I was in the possition where I had to choose to
            > promote a point of view--and in this case I chose
            > David Ahenakew. I am responsible. Thanks for Listening
            > --- Leon McQuaid <leonpmcquaid@...> wrote:
            > > Is there anyone out there that can talk to me about
            > > Simone De Beauvoir,
            > > especially about her philosophy on love and
            > > intersubjectivity.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >From: HOOVER460@...
            > > >Reply-To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
            > > >To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
            > > >Subject: Re: [Sartre] Nietzsche and consumption and
            > > Sartre and Politics
            > > >Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:37:40 EST
            > > >
            > > >Richard: Where did you get the numbers, 95% in U.S.
            > > are working class and
            > > >5%
            > > >weathy? the wealthy class produces theology or
            > > anything else? You seem to
            > > >have a knack for fabrication generally. and more
            > > specially about the middle
            > > >east!
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been
            > > removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > _________________________________________________________________
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            >
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