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Re: [Sartre] ncandau82: Sartre on Love

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  • John Foster
    ... From: Helen Brady To: Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [Sartre]
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 1, 2002
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Helen Brady" <helen@...>
      To: <Sartre@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 10:17 AM
      Subject: Re: [Sartre] ncandau82: Sartre on Love

      With regards to the 'love' question! One could suggest that 'love'
      exists in the out-itself model as it is based on a reciprocal
      relationship between compliant individuals. Ideally it should exist in
      an altruistic sense, in that - 'I'm happy if your happy' which, on
      reflection, is a form of self sacrifice which may have a damaging affect
      on ones authenticity.

      'Self-sacrifice' I think belongs to a different dimension of existence. I
      don't think that anyone contemplating the consequences of an act of
      'ultimate' love would actually consider that there are such things as
      boundaries between one self and another self. I suspect that there may be a
      'lack of care' for the self in that the self contemplating a selfless act
      does not 'weigh' all the consequences of the act which may be a
      self-sacrificing act. Sure there are those acts which are contemplated, such
      as bull fighting, and other dangerous acts, where the actor is conscious of
      the possible consequences; however, the actor is prepared to accept the
      possible consequences apon weighing the benefits with the costs. The fact
      that the bull may be harmed and itself destroyed is there, but the reason
      why the bull fighter is able to engage in the act is for the love of the
      spectator. Many dangerous acts are accomplished simply for the spectator.
      The bull fighter if gored is perceived as selfless by the spectator, but has
      no real consciousness herself of what is 'self-sacrifice' since there is no
      reflection on the alternatives. There may be 'remorse' which Johnny felt
      after he obtained his gun, but he perhaps did not consider the
      'consequences' adequately before he Got His Gun (cf. Dalton Trombo's, Johnny
      Got His Gun). The bull-fighter is fully aware of the consequences and
      therefore cannot be 'self-sacrificial'; it simply comes with the job. While
      Johnnie's love was 'misplaced' and inauthentic as for guns, the bull-fighter
      has love which is authentic because it was what she wanted to do for the
      crowd. So the bull-fighter was to become a hero, but Johnnie became
      anonymous canon fodder, fertilizer. And he did not want that...

      This transphenomenality (a Satrean term) means that not only is the bull an
      object of consciousness, but that it also is part of a spectacle and that
      spectacle plays on/out the engagement of the actor with the spectator and
      the imagination, ultimately a dynamic contest between nature and nuture. The
      bull symbolizing the daemonic and the practiced bull-fighter as grace
      (essentially grace means understanding).

      I think the intentional aspect of what we refer to as altruistic is what we
      also refer to as a form of transphenomenality. We simply engage in the
      'authentic' during the act; for others, then we exist only as long as we
      exist for them, since they cannot exist for-their-selves. We attempt to save
      them, knowing apon reflection that we are possibly about to make our own
      exit, and this exit is not a 'material' exit, but a passage. Passage for me
      is the supreme metaphor for the spiritual and therefore to have faith, or
      good faith is to be certain that the act culminates in the passage from one
      state of being or existence to a different one. The mode of being or
      presence thus became saturated with meaning, and deep, uniting both
      retention, history, with protention, destiny. The metaphor of the passage is
      referred to in others as deep change and in the psychological sense as
      passage in the self to a 'beyond', a 'higher plateau' but really a peak. A
      pass in the mountains, and a passage connotes the spiritual. The metaphor of
      the body making a passage through high walls, columns, and irregular spaces,
      and an opening beyond.

      The family, I would presume [being the capitalist
      alienating institution it is today] may also affect ones authenticity.
      Being a novice to Existentialism, but not to Marxism have I got the
      wrong end of the stick? - would you care to elaborate?


      For a family to exist there has to be some thing called value. Family itself
      thus is 'feeling' and the term institution has a 'quasi legal' sense to it.
      The 'enemy of family' is bureaucracy according to Robin Fox. The 'intention'
      behind the term 'bureaucracy' is set of frozen rules, rough-hewn shapes that
      'precast' feeling as concrete. Where there is a member of the family, a
      'consanquine' perhaps, who does not contribute to the feeling, there is

      I consider the 'stars' part of my family, even though I do not yet know they
      live like I do....Capitalists do love to account for all transactions, all
      value is no referred to as price, and the legality of having is a
      'constraint' to true family. This is why Marx, et al, believed that everyone
      should have what they need, and also what the deserve according to the
      abilities. Capitalism only rewards the 'legal' owners of capital....and
      never anyone or all.



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