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Re: What is value in existential terms?

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  • daniel_needles
    Joe, Forgive me if I repeat myself. I can t remember if I mention Daoism. Your ideas mirror many of their thoughts. You might want to check them out. Thanks,
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 11, 2002
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      Joe,
      Forgive me if I repeat myself. I can't remember if I mention
      Daoism. Your ideas mirror many of their thoughts. You might want to
      check them out.

      Thanks,
      Daniel


      --- In Sartre@y..., "decker150" <decker150@y...> wrote:
      > Hi Daniel. I guess I'm merely saying that the interest that arises
      > in the other, transcends whatever instrumental value I attempt to
      > impose upon them through my own desire / lack. It simply is not
      true
      > that the other has any final word on defining the value of my
      > person. I have value, you have value, in and of yourself, without
      > any approbation by others. And that b>
      > Joe
      >
      > --- In Sartre@y..., "daniel_needles" <Daniel.Needles@C...> wrote:
      > > This is an interesting exploration into value of an object with
      > which
      > > interactions are based. One way to frame it is through the use of
      > > models or structures.
      > >
      > > Borrowing from Plato's "forms" we can represent the intrinsic
      value
      > o
      > > the woman as the universal "form" or model of forms she can take
      in
      > > all past, current, and future instances.
      > >
      > > The current form is then simply an expression of that model.
      > >
      > > Anyway, could you continue with your line of thought? I was
      unclear
      > > where you were going with it but I found it intriguing.
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > Daniel
      > >
      > > --- In Sartre@y..., "decker150" <decker150@y...> wrote:
      > > > It seems that Sartre understood value as what the for-itself
      does
      > > > in the face of lack. (strictly instrumental) In other words,
      > human
      > > > beings desire what they lack specifically. For example; one man
      > may
      > > > see a particular woman as desirable and feel that not to have
      her
      > > for
      > > > himself would be lacking. Thus, what he lacks is what he also
      > > > desires. Consequently he sees some value in the woman.
      > > >
      > > > But is value strictly 'desire & lack' based.
      > > >
      > > > The woman is viewed as an object of desire, seemingly
      neccessary
      > > for
      > > > the man to be himself; complete and happy.
      > > >
      > > > However, this particular view of value interprets the woman as
      a
      > > > meer object of desire, a means to an end [the man's
      fulfillment]
      > > and
      > > > does not recognize that the woman is an end in herself or has
      > value
      > > in
      > > > and of herself - without the man's desire / lack / value.
      > > >
      > > > The key point that I am making about value is that it is not
      > > strictly
      > > > bound in the for-itself as a desire for an object in order to
      > > pursue
      > > > it's own lack, in order to be itself (completed). Although
      value
      > is
      > > > expressed as 'interest' and therefore rooted in a conscious
      mind,
      > > that
      > > > interest is not specifically limited to ones own mind, but
      > > expressed
      > > > as an acknowledgement of the others detached interest,
      > > > individual consciousness and inherent worth, existing within
      them
      > > > alone.
      > > >
      > > > If I see this hypothetical woman as a means to my own
      > fulfillment,
      > > > then I have viewed this woman as having only an instrumental
      > value
      > > > determined by me. If I see this woman as an end in herself,
      > having
      > > > value within the context of her own freedom, then I have viewed
      > > this
      > > > woman as having an intrinsic value determined by or within
      > herself
      > > > alone.
      > > >
      > > > No true mutual respect between people is possible without
      > > > acknowledging the intrinsic value of the other.
      > > >
      > > > Joe
    • David Villena
      Levinaz? David ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 12, 2002
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        Levinaz?

        David

        --- decker150 <decker150@...> wrote:
        > Hi Daniel. I guess I'm merely saying that the
        > interest that arises
        > in the other, transcends whatever instrumental value
        > I attempt to
        > impose upon them through my own desire / lack. It
        > simply is not true
        > that the other has any final word on defining the
        > value of my
        > person. I have value, you have value, in and of
        > yourself, without
        > any approbation by others. And that value is upheld
        > by the
        > individual toward him or herself by the force of
        > their own
        > conclusion / interest. The intrinsic value I have
        > as a person arises
        > from my own affirmative interest.
        >
        > Joe
        >
        > --- In Sartre@y..., "daniel_needles"
        > <Daniel.Needles@C...> wrote:
        > > This is an interesting exploration into value of
        > an object with
        > which
        > > interactions are based. One way to frame it is
        > through the use of
        > > models or structures.
        > >
        > > Borrowing from Plato's "forms" we can represent
        > the intrinsic value
        > o
        > > the woman as the universal "form" or model of
        > forms she can take in
        > > all past, current, and future instances.
        > >
        > > The current form is then simply an expression of
        > that model.
        > >
        > > Anyway, could you continue with your line of
        > thought? I was unclear
        > > where you were going with it but I found it
        > intriguing.
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > > Daniel
        > >
        > > --- In Sartre@y..., "decker150" <decker150@y...>
        > wrote:
        > > > It seems that Sartre understood value as what
        > the for-itself does
        > > > in the face of lack. (strictly instrumental) In
        > other words,
        > human
        > > > beings desire what they lack specifically. For
        > example; one man
        > may
        > > > see a particular woman as desirable and feel
        > that not to have her
        > > for
        > > > himself would be lacking. Thus, what he lacks
        > is what he also
        > > > desires. Consequently he sees some value in the
        > woman.
        > > >
        > > > But is value strictly 'desire & lack' based.
        > > >
        > > > The woman is viewed as an object of desire,
        > seemingly neccessary
        > > for
        > > > the man to be himself; complete and happy.
        > > >
        > > > However, this particular view of value
        > interprets the woman as a
        > > > meer object of desire, a means to an end [the
        > man's fulfillment]
        > > and
        > > > does not recognize that the woman is an end in
        > herself or has
        > value
        > > in
        > > > and of herself - without the man's desire / lack
        > / value.
        > > >
        > > > The key point that I am making about value is
        > that it is not
        > > strictly
        > > > bound in the for-itself as a desire for an
        > object in order to
        > > pursue
        > > > it's own lack, in order to be itself
        > (completed). Although value
        > is
        > > > expressed as 'interest' and therefore rooted in
        > a conscious mind,
        > > that
        > > > interest is not specifically limited to ones own
        > mind, but
        > > expressed
        > > > as an acknowledgement of the others detached
        > interest,
        > > > individual consciousness and inherent worth,
        > existing within them
        > > > alone.
        > > >
        > > > If I see this hypothetical woman as a means to
        > my own
        > fulfillment,
        > > > then I have viewed this woman as having only an
        > instrumental
        > value
        > > > determined by me. If I see this woman as an end
        > in herself,
        > having
        > > > value within the context of her own freedom,
        > then I have viewed
        > > this
        > > > woman as having an intrinsic value determined by
        > or within
        > herself
        > > > alone.
        > > >
        > > > No true mutual respect between people is
        > possible without
        > > > acknowledging the intrinsic value of the other.
        > > >
        > > > Joe
        >
        >
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