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Re: [grasping] . . . the personal application of existentialism

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  • decker150
    Sartre became a Marxist for a period of time. Do you think his own existential doctrines lead him to that political conclusion? I mean, since he viewed life
    Message 1 of 11 , May 1, 2002
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      Sartre became a Marxist for a period of time. Do you think his own
      existential doctrines lead him to that political conclusion? I mean,
      since he viewed life as one dominated by material conditions, his
      political views, once acknowledged, inevitable resulted in Marxist
      applications. And, then later, didn't Sartre withdraw from the
      Marxist cause?.

      Joe

      --- In Sartre@y..., praxistence@a... wrote:
      > It's probably important to note that B&N was published in 1943; it
      didn't
      > appear in English until 1956. By then, Sartre had already become
      politicized &
      > had moved existentialism to the, as he wrote, "margin of
      Knowledge." One of
      > the shortest & best intros to Sartre I think is Search for Method:
      cultural
      > order is irreducible to natural order, meaning we can't allude to
      natural
      > science (e.g., medicine) to explain cultural phenomena (social
      movements,
      > political parties, mental illness).
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • praxistence@aol.com
      My impression is that after WWII, Sartre s involvement with post-war activity, in particular resistance against the Americanization of post-war & devastated
      Message 2 of 11 , May 4, 2002
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        My impression is that after WWII, Sartre's involvement with post-war
        activity, in particular resistance against the "Americanization" of post-war &
        devastated Europe, led him to conclude the he was seeing Marxism manifested
        in that very post-war activity. He said he was seeing people act Marxism in
        their very bones, i.e., farmers & factory workers that realized that the
        post-war economies were not in their best interests.

        Moreover, Sartre's much-publicized political evolution was little more than a
        personal realization of his long-embedded writing neurosis (see Sartre By
        Himself, the 1972 documentary film). In Laing's The Self and Others, he cites
        a "famous philosopher" who did not awake from his "post-infantile hypnotic
        sleep" until he was past 50 years of age & already world famous. I suspect
        this was Sartre & that this awakening was his politicization, his genuine
        appreciation of Marxism not merely as history theory but as an active social
        reality.

        When he re-examined Marx's writings, he realized that Marxism had become mere
        dogma & that the contradictions in Marx were being ignored by the scholastic
        establishment. He saw an "arrested" Marxism, which required a new theoretical
        basis. I think that Sartre was one of the few people & certainly one of even
        fewer celebrities whose recognition of changing material conditions caused
        him to alter his own philosophy.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • decker150
        Thanks - that s interesting. I don t know very much about Marxism, except to say that I think alot about his theme of alienation . I recall Marx having
        Message 3 of 11 , May 6, 2002
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          Thanks - that's interesting. I don't know very much about Marxism,
          except to say that I think alot about his theme of 'alienation'. I
          recall Marx having pointed out that the worker was seperated from the
          process and the product because the means of production was not his
          own. Over the course of my life, I have attempted to 'realize' this
          point in my own life, by owning the process. I've tried to
          authenticate my own experience by a number of live-in/work-in
          environments as an attempt to integrate work as a personal expression,
          rather than an impersonal situation where another person might
          exploit me as a function of labor in the pursuit of profit. Today, I
          run my own business in which the work process itself is creatively
          determined more by own dreams, visions and ideas, although the
          products are seperated at the point of purchase. That I could care
          less about. My products are a dime a dozen (so-to-speak) because
          there is alway more from where they came from. It's not as though our
          own outputs and products need to be horded up in a misery way anyway,
          right?

          But, living in a market place economy as I do, where the prevailing
          paradigm is capital, my business forms to those contours. Could it be
          any other way?

          I also think of Paul Tillich who said man was seperated from his
          ground of being, which I believe he referred to as nature, self,
          others and maybe god. From a Marxist perspective, the ultimate ground
          of one's being is material, so I gather that is why they place so much
          emphasis upon work and actual social realities, rather than the
          'spirit'. Yet no sooner than I have said that, I wonder if it isn't
          the whole concern over alienation that arises out of man's spiritual
          disatisfaction. An 'alienated man' refers me to the spiritual
          condition of the worker, more along the lines of Sartre's
          being-for-itself which is discontent with his whole working class lot
          in life.

          Do you think Sartre's paradigm of existence and essence has any
          correlation to the dogmas of Marx about raw labor and man's
          discontents?

          Thanks - Joe




          --- In Sartre@y..., praxistence@a... wrote:
          > My impression is that after WWII, Sartre's involvement with post-war
          > activity, in particular resistance against the "Americanization" of
          post-war &
          > devastated Europe, led him to conclude the he was seeing Marxism
          manifested
          > in that very post-war activity. He said he was seeing people act
          Marxism in
          > their very bones, i.e., farmers & factory workers that realized that
          the
          > post-war economies were not in their best interests.
          >
          > Moreover, Sartre's much-publicized political evolution was little
          more than a
          > personal realization of his long-embedded writing neurosis (see
          Sartre By
          > Himself, the 1972 documentary film). In Laing's The Self and Others,
          he cites
          > a "famous philosopher" who did not awake from his "post-infantile
          hypnotic
          > sleep" until he was past 50 years of age & already world famous. I
          suspect
          > this was Sartre & that this awakening was his politicization, his
          genuine
          > appreciation of Marxism not merely as history theory but as an
          active social
          > reality.
          >
          > When he re-examined Marx's writings, he realized that Marxism had
          become mere
          > dogma & that the contradictions in Marx were being ignored by the
          scholastic
          > establishment. He saw an "arrested" Marxism, which required a new
          theoretical
          > basis. I think that Sartre was one of the few people & certainly one
          of even
          > fewer celebrities whose recognition of changing material conditions
          caused
          > him to alter his own philosophy.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • praxistence@aol.com
          I think Sartre s existence/essence paradigm was produced without any attention to Marxism. Once Sartre decided that Marxism needed a more rigorous defense than
          Message 4 of 11 , May 7, 2002
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            I think Sartre's existence/essence paradigm was produced without any
            attention to Marxism. Once Sartre decided that Marxism needed a more rigorous
            defense than it was getting from self-styled Marxists, he'd pretty much
            dispensed with the whole existence/essence thing.

            As far as alienation being spiritual, I suspect that both Marx & Sartre
            might've thought that spiritual fulfillment began at the material level,
            i.e., with one's satisfaction with one's work & product; satisfaction with
            one's mediation with material or matter. However, if that failed, then we
            moved on to spiritual satisfaction.

            This probably sounds heretical, but I've formed the conclusion that material
            satisfaction, i.e., something beyond mere subsistence living, & spiritual
            satisfaction are closely aligned. And so I'm suspicious when some public
            person drones on about him or her having found God; I think, "Yeah, you found
            Him in your bank account." For Sartre, a material world was not just the
            desire for things; human existence was a constant & necessary mediation betw.
            people & matter. On the "field of scarcity."


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • lewisvella
            Hello Sartre List, I am forwarding the following message from chofborg1 , in heidegger-dialognet@y... Lewis ... cofb it is the profit minded
            Message 5 of 11 , May 18, 2002
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              Hello Sartre List,

              I am forwarding the following message from "chofborg1"
              <chofborg1@y...>, in heidegger-dialognet@y...

              Lewis

              --- In heidegger-dialognet@y..., Lewis Vella <lewisvella@y...> wrote:
              > THE EXISTENTIAL TIMES
              > 'A Philosophical(?)View from Scratch'
              > Volume 1, #11
              _________________________________________________
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sartre/message/4181
              > ___________________________________________________

              cofb
              it is the profit minded marketeers (who took over centuries ago
              with the permission of the king when he granted the merchants
              marketeers control over exploration and resource development)...
              they tell you what the exercise of freedom as democracy is(it must
              be profitable...and if not now then it must be a political football)
              ...what god is(penance for grace...mercy and profit)...and what
              is ethical(how much does your education teach you)...the true
              exercise of freedom as democracy by the people is the voting-out-
              of-office of any and all politicians who do not deliver 'what the
              people want' without excuse...if they cannot deliver then they do
              not deserve the responsibility...freedom is not the same thing as
              ensuring a profit...when some group seeks profits then another
              group takes a loss...the average person who is living by 'the order
              of the day' is expected to run his/her life as if it were a business
              sheet...proit or loss...but the average person is not a businessman
              and so that form of cultural-democratic-freedom is not conducive to
              overall mental health in general...when a large segment of the
              population is under too much stress that simply provides a false
              basis for certain profit oriented businesses...from the medical
              community to the legal community...the god of the profit marketeers
              is in every aspect of life.
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