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Re: [Sartre] Marx and the Party Vanguard

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  • Christopher Bobo
    ... Thank goodness for the internet. Rather than spending hours pulling out all my old Marx books I just went to the Marx Archive at
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 5, 2002
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      Mathias wrote:
      >>What you are describing is not Marxism, at best it is Leninism. Marx never talked about a vanguard party that was Lenin's thing <<

      Thank goodness for the internet. Rather than spending hours pulling out all my old Marx books I just went to the Marx Archive at http://www.marxists.org/index.htm , selected Marx as the author, and a search on the word "vanguard" and look below at what I found--some 28 hits.

      I think clearly thatMarx did use the term and Leninism development of it was perfectly consistent with Marxist ideology. Lenin was perhaps Marx's greatest student. I would pause a long time before I even implied by Lenin was not correctly interpreting Marxism.

      Footnotes for Volume 8 of Marx-Engels Collected Works
      ... in the Serbian and Croatian regions of the Military Border Area (see Note 81). In peacetime they protected the frontier and in wartime fulfilled vanguard, outpost and patrol duties. Raizes (Raizen, Razen, Rascier) — the name given to the Orthodox Serbs and often used for Serbs in general. It is apparendy ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume08/footnote.htm 01/11/02, 228128 bytes
      Footnotes for Volume 38 of Marx-Engels Collected Works
      Notes 1 This is the earliest extant letter of Engels to Marx, written soon after Engels’ return to Germany from England. On his way back to Germany at the end of August 1844, he stopped in Paris, where he met Marx. During the days they spent together they discovered that their theoretical views coincided ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume38/footnote.htm 01/11/02, 175938 bytes
      18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon-- VII
      ... officers, averse to fighting under the banner of the Montagnards because of the memories of June, 1848 and 1849, and May, 1850, it left to its vanguard, the secret societies, the task of saving the insurrectionary honor of Paris, which the bourgeoisie had surrendered to the military so unresistingly ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/ch07.htm 03/28/02, 36746 bytes
      The 27th Bulletin.-- Military Reports-Marx and Engels
      ... under the command of Lieutenant-Field Marshal Schlick, occupied Mezö-Kövesd. "About midday, when the fog had lifted somewhat, the reconnoitring vanguard reported that the enemy had moved off in the direction of the Theiss and his crossing-point at Tisza-Füred. The Field Marshal at once dispatched ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/10.htm 01/30/02, 15873 bytes
      [manifest.txt]
      ... . The Tsar was proclaimed the chief of European reaction. Today, he is a prisoner of war of the revolution in Gatchina, and Russia forms the vanguard of revolutionary action in Europe. The Communist Manifesto had, as its object, the proclamation of the inevitable impending dissolution of modern bourgeois ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/manifest.txt 03/14/01, 111798 bytes
      Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 256 March 1849
      ... arrived from Ratibor that Dembinski has taken Pest by storm. Görgey, who had already occupied the heights of Raab with his army, is marching as a vanguard on Vienna, which Dembinski intends to occupy soon. "In Bohemia, the outbreak of a terrible revolution is expected at any moment, which will ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/27.htm 01/21/02, 10749 bytes
      Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 237 February 1849
      ... also imperial, reports of the 25th from Pest, Windischgrätz has set up his headquarters in Gyöngyös, almost halfway between Pest and Hatvan, and his vanguard under General Zeisberg is already back in Gyöngyös. “The rebels,” it is said, “are retreating as before at Szolnok, but this time they will hardly ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/04a.htm 01/21/02, 11631 bytes
      Karl Marx in New York Daily Tribune
      ... ; that if there was, it would protect the Christians without foreign aid, and that it did not wish to summon the ships until after the fêtes. But the vanguard of the united fleets had hardly crossed the straits, when the Porte, having now put its vacillating and treacherous allies into a fix, declared ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/10/21.htm 01/31/02, 26550 bytes
      Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 250 March 1849
      ... followed on the 3rd by the main corps consisting of the two brigades of Stutterheim and Kalliani. After the first brigades had fought a victorious vanguard skirmish on March 2, the next day — when all three brigades had come together — the enemy was gradually driven back from all three positions which ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/20.htm 01/21/02, 23151 bytes
      18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon-- III
      ... departments, likewise declared in a state of siege, a condition that has continued up to the present moment. The bulk of the Montagne had left its vanguard in the lurch, having refused to subscribe to its proclamation. The press had deserted, only two journals having dared to publish the pronunciamento ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/ch03.htm 03/28/02, 38271 bytes
      The International Workingmen's Association, Poland and the Russian Menace
      ... Within a few months, the plans were ready. The Prussians were to concentrate on the Rhine and the Muscovites were to follow them. But then "the vanguard turned against the main army", as Lafayette said in the Chamber of Deputies. The uprising in Warsaw saved Europe from a second anti-Jacobin ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867/01/22.htm 02/27/02, 12369 bytes
      IWMA 1872: Report of the General Council
      ... German state to another, suppression of proletarian papers, military brutality, and police-chicane in all forms, did not prevent the International vanguard of the German working class from acting up to the Brunswick manifesto, Vogel von Falkenstein, by an ukase of September 21st [1870], interdicted ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/iwma/hague-report.htm 02/27/02, 27437 bytes
      For Poland
      ... Poland. The constitution of 1791, embodying the rights of man, became the banner of the revolution on the banks of the Vistula and made Poland the vanguard of revolutionary France, and that at a moment when the three powers which had already plundered Poland were uniting to march on Paris and to stifle ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/03/24.htm 02/07/02, 8975 bytes
      The International Workingmen's Association, Fictitious Splits in the International
      ... very persistence of the attacks to which the General Council is subjected by all the enemies of the proletarian movement that has placed it in the vanguard of the defenders of the International Working Men's Association. V. Having dealt with the International, such as it is, the Sixteen proceed to tell ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/03/fictitious-splits.htm 02/22/02, 109591 bytes
      Eighteenth Brumaire: Chapter 7 (abstract)
      ... officers, averse to fighting under the banner of the Montagnards because of the memories of June, 1848 and 1849, and May, 1850, it left to its vanguard, the secret societies, the task of saving the insurrectionary honor of Paris, which the bourgeoisie had surrendered to the military so unresistingly ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/hist-mat/18-brum/ch07.htm 02/01/02, 29606 bytes
      Communist Manifesto (Preface)
      ... . The Tsar was proclaimed the chief of European reaction. Today, he is a prisoner of war of the revolution in Gatchina [B], and Russia forms the vanguard of revolutionary action in Europe. The Communist Manifesto had, as its object, the proclamation of the inevitable impending dissolution of modern bourgeois ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm 02/28/02, 43130 bytes
      Preface to Volume 7 of Marx-Engels Collected Works
      ... revolutionary writers, pamphleteers and true tribunes of the people, who organised and led the democratic and proletarian movements and headed the vanguard of the working class. The revolutions of 1848-49 were indeed the first crucial practical test for Marxism both as the scientific world outlook of ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume07/preface.htm 01/11/02, 52354 bytes
      The Communists and Karl Heinzen by Frederick Engels
      ... ’ War [126]) were firstly always reactionary manifestations and were secondly always crushed. The industrial proletariat of the towns has become the vanguard of all modern democracy; the urban petty bourgeoisie and still more the peasants depend on its initiative completely. The French Revolution of ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/09/26.htm 01/21/02, 43945 bytes
      Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 231-232 February 1849
      ... ; [quoting Heinrich Heine] the realm of pious wishes, the policy of fantasy. How splendid it would be if the Croats, Pandours and Cossacks formed the vanguard of European democracy, if the ambassador of a republic of Siberia were to present his credentials in Paris! Certainly, such prospects would be ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/02/15.htm 01/21/02, 47131 bytes
      Results
      ... , which not only replaces school cramming, but renders harmless the confused religious notions connected with it, and even places the workers in the vanguard of the national movement of England. Necessity is the mother of invention, and what is still more important, of thought and action. The English ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-working-class/ch07.htm 01/28/02, 99971 bytes

      Preface to Volume 6 of Marx-Engels Collected Works
      ... to the peasantry and urban petty bourgeoisie, Engels argued that not the peasantry but “the industrial proletariat of the towns has become the vanguard of all modern democracy; the urban petty bourgeoisie and still more the peasants depend on its initiative completely” (see this volume, p. 295). Marx ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume06/preface.htm 01/11/02, 41674 bytes
      Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 236 February 1849
      ... further back to the Slovak mountain towns, where, separated from the main army by the Danube bend, he stands quite isolated and powerless. Then, the vanguard of the main royal imperial army, even the main army itself, had to be thrown back five to seven miles further; for it is not long since Windischgr ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/03.htm 01/21/02, 12110 bytes
      Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 283 April 1849
      ... Komorn. No credence can be given to a martial-law report that the encirclement area of Komorn has been re-established. The outposts of the Magyar vanguard are reported to be already at Tyrnau, five miles from Pressburg. According to other reports they are two miles from Pressburg, and people claim to ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/04/27b.htm 01/21/02, 3216 bytes
      Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 265 April 1849
      ... and then headed west; by way of Rimaszombat he went to Losoncz, and took up a position on the Ipoly (Eipel) between Losoncz and Balassa-Gyarmat. His vanguard is said to have pushed forward as far as Nograd. The heroic Ramberg beat a hasty retreat by way of Hatvan on the very worst roads to Waitzen on ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/04/06.htm 01/21/02, 13812 bytes
      Revolution and Counter-Revolution-Ch 17
      ... Marx dedicated the first volume of "Capital." "Dedicated To My Never-To-Be-Forgotten Friend The Brave, True, Noble Fighter In The Van-Guard Of The Proletariat, WILHELM WOLFF. Born at Tornau, June 21st, 1809. Died in exile at Manchester, 9th May, 1864." Contents | Notes | Next ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/germany/ch17.htm 01/30/02, 11384 bytes
      The International Workingmen's Association, Statement regarding the causes of the breach with the Social-Demokrat
      ... its forms, the Tuileries form and the form of the Palais-Royal, and never for a moment considered the plan of selling its historical honour as the vanguard of the revolution for a mess of pottage". The statement concluded with the words: "We recommend, this example to the German workers." ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/03/15.htm 02/15/02, 8721 bytes
      The Peasant War in Germany: Addendum
      ... of the British, and to the cruel suppression of the French movements on the other, that for the present moment the German workers form the vanguard of the proletarian struggle. How long events will allow them to occupy this post of honour cannot be foreseen. But as long as they are placed in it, let ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/peasant-war-germany/ch0b.htm 01/30/02, 15699 bytes
      The Life and Work of Karl Marx: Outstanding Dates
      ... January 21, 1882 Marx and Engels write a preface to the Russian edition of the Manifesto of the Communist Party, stating that “Russia forms the vanguard of revolutionary action in Europe” February-October With his health deteriorating, Marx goes to Algeria, the south of France and Switzerland for a ...
      http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/bio/marx/lifeandwork.htm 02/28/02, 64790 bytes





      ----- Original Message -----
      From: mathias@...
      Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 5:54 AM
      To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Sartre] Marx



      What you are describing is not Marxism, at best it is Leninism. Marx never talked about a vanguard party that was Lenin's thing and even then Lenin believed that workers's on their own would only develop a "trade-union consciousness" which leads them to collaboration with the ruling class. In Lenin's view workers could not develop revolutionary class consciousness by themselves. If Lenin believed in a pre determined revolutionary outcome he would have never develpped his theory of the vanguard party.

      The conditions man finds him/herself in has been pre determined and to a large extent their individual role in society is determined by that. There does not exist however a set script by which a person unknowingly (or knowingly) lives their lives. The dialectic is meant to be a tool by which one (or a class) can grasp and interpret material reality and the process of change. By means of this tool man begins to free her/himself from the "situation."

      Marx never developed a utopian idea of what life would look like after the "revolution" rather he applied his science of dialectics to the study of his surroundings which is why he wrote book called Capital and not a book called socialism.





      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Christopher Bobo
      Sent: 4/5/2002 2:22:46 AM
      To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: Re: [Sartre] Re: Marxism

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      > I always read marxism as fundamentally being about the relationship of societies to the means of production in the context of an unfolding dialectical materialism. The individual in this context does not so much develop his or her own understanding and orientation to the world; rather, the individual assumes a certain pre-determined role by adopting a ready made class consciousness, the content of which is dictated by class vanguard (ruler class), the party. Even here, the party cadres do not attempt to create in free form fashion their own particular ideology, rather, the apply a pre-determined ideology--say marxism-leninism--to a set of facts and try to read the right conclusions as a fortune teller might with tarot cards or tea leaves. After all, what is at play in history is not individuals, per se, but historical material forces--thesis, antithesis and synthesis, in which the individual only plays out his or her pre-determined class role. The bourgeois factory owner is the thesis and plays out his or her role as personified capital, extracting surplus value from labor like an inhuman vampiric force, while his antithesis, the worker suffers the alienation of his or labor. Eventually, the laborer realizes his or her condition, and plays his or her historical role by developing revolutionary class consciousness and so enters into the praxis--under the leadership of the party--in which role he violently seizes control of the means of production from the blood-sucking capitalist, as was pre-ordained by the unfolding of the dialectic of historical materialism. And so, as Marx conceived it, the proletarian revolution was/is inevitable because the various actors have no choice but to play out the roles that the dialectical has foreordained for them. <BR>
      > <BR>
      > Of course, all of this terribly mistaken, for it does not take into consideration the real freedom of individuals to ad lib. The capitalist decides not to act like a vampire and the worker decides not be behave like a revolutionary or to follow the dictates of the class vanguard in the form of the party. Indeed, instead of becoming the liberator of the workers, the party becomes their oppressor. And so, before the marxist quite knows what has happened, the metaphysical machinery of the dialectic of historical materialism has gone haywire and marxism finds itself on the ash heap of history. <BR>
      > <BR>


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • mathias@sigmaweb.net
      - Thanks for the labor of pulling up all the Marx stuff. In my post I mentioned that Marx never talked of the vanguard party but that the Theory of the
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 5, 2002
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        -


        Thanks for the labor of pulling up all the Marx stuff. In my post I mentioned that Marx never talked of the vanguard party but that the Theory of the Vanguard Party is a creation of Lenin. I do not deny that Marx uses the word vanguard, as many people do, however using the word vanguard is far different than implying agreement with the concept of the vanguard party.

        Whether or not Lenin was Marx's "best" student is subjective, and whether or not Lenin's ideas are consistent with Marxism was and is still a debate. Of course Lenin's interpretations gained greater notoriety because after all he was leader of the first succesful communist revolution.


        My point:

        we cant take what Lenin said and try to use that to argue against what Marx said.

        Mathias Bolton






        ---- Original Message -----
        From: Christopher Bobo
        Sent: 4/5/2002 11:14:24 AM
        To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Sartre] Marx and the Party Vanguard

        > <html><body>
        >
        >
        > <tt>
        > Mathias wrote:<BR>
        > >>What you are describing is not Marxism, at best it is Leninism. Marx never talked about a vanguard party that was Lenin's thing <<<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Thank goodness for the internet.� Rather than spending hours pulling out all my old Marx books I just went to the Marx Archive at�� <a href="http://www.marxists.org/index.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/index.htm</a> , selected Marx as the author, and a search on the word "vanguard" and look below at what I found--some 28 hits.<BR>
        > <BR>
        > I think clearly thatMarx did use the term and Leninism development of it was perfectly consistent with Marxist ideology.� Lenin was perhaps Marx's greatest student.� I would pause a long time before I even implied by Lenin was not correctly interpreting Marxism.<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Footnotes for Volume 8 of Marx-Engels Collected Works� <BR>
        > ... in the Serbian and Croatian regions of the Military Border Area (see Note 81). In peacetime they protected the frontier and in wartime fulfilled vanguard, outpost and patrol duties. Raizes (Raizen, Razen, Rascier) ��� the name given to the Orthodox Serbs and often used for Serbs in general. It is apparendy ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume08/footnote.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume08/footnote.htm</a> 01/11/02, 228128 bytes� <BR>
        > Footnotes for Volume 38 of Marx-Engels Collected Works� <BR>
        > Notes 1 This is the earliest extant letter of Engels to Marx, written soon after Engels��� return to Germany from England. On his way back to Germany at the end of August 1844, he stopped in Paris, where he met Marx. During the days they spent together they discovered that their theoretical views coincided ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume38/footnote.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume38/footnote.htm</a> 01/11/02, 175938 bytes� <BR>
        > 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon-- VII� <BR>
        > ... officers, averse to fighting under the banner of the Montagnards because of the memories of June, 1848 and 1849, and May, 1850, it left to its vanguard, the secret societies, the task of saving the insurrectionary honor of Paris, which the bourgeoisie had surrendered to the military so unresistingly ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/ch07.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/ch07.htm</a> 03/28/02, 36746 bytes� <BR>
        > The 27th Bulletin.-- Military Reports-Marx and Engels� <BR>
        > ... under the command of Lieutenant-Field Marshal Schlick, occupied Mez��-K��vesd. "About midday, when the fog had lifted somewhat, the reconnoitring vanguard reported that the enemy had moved off in the direction of the Theiss and his crossing-point at Tisza-F��red. The Field Marshal at once dispatched ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/10.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/10.htm</a> 01/30/02, 15873 bytes� <BR>
        > [manifest.txt]� <BR>
        > ... . The Tsar was proclaimed the chief of European reaction. Today, he is a prisoner of war of the revolution in Gatchina, and Russia forms the vanguard of revolutionary action in Europe. The Communist Manifesto had, as its object, the proclamation of the inevitable impending dissolution of modern bourgeois ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/manifest.txt" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/manifest.txt</a> 03/14/01, 111798 bytes� <BR>
        > Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 256 March 1849� <BR>
        > ... arrived from Ratibor that Dembinski has taken Pest by storm. G��rgey, who had already occupied the heights of Raab with his army, is marching as a vanguard on Vienna, which Dembinski intends to occupy soon. "In Bohemia, the outbreak of a terrible revolution is expected at any moment, which will ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/27.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/27.htm</a> 01/21/02, 10749 bytes� <BR>
        > Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 237 February 1849� <BR>
        > ... also imperial, reports of the 25th from Pest, Windischgr��tz has set up his headquarters in Gy��ngy��s, almost halfway between Pest and Hatvan, and his vanguard under General Zeisberg is already back in Gy��ngy��s. ���The rebels,��� it is said, ���are retreating as before at Szolnok, but this time they will hardly ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/04a.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/04a.htm</a> 01/21/02, 11631 bytes� <BR>
        > Karl Marx in New York Daily Tribune� <BR>
        > ... ; that if there was, it would protect the Christians without foreign aid, and that it did not wish to summon the ships until after the f��tes. But the vanguard of the united fleets had hardly crossed the straits, when the Porte, having now put its vacillating and treacherous allies into a fix, declared ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/10/21.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/10/21.htm</a> 01/31/02, 26550 bytes� <BR>
        > Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 250 March 1849� <BR>
        > ... followed on the 3rd by the main corps consisting of the two brigades of Stutterheim and Kalliani. After the first brigades had fought a victorious vanguard skirmish on March 2, the next day ��� when all three brigades had come together ��� the enemy was gradually driven back from all three positions which ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/20.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/20.htm</a> 01/21/02, 23151 bytes� <BR>
        > 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon-- III� <BR>
        > ... departments, likewise declared in a state of siege, a condition that has continued up to the present moment. The bulk of the Montagne had left its vanguard in the lurch, having refused to subscribe to its proclamation. The press had deserted, only two journals having dared to publish the pronunciamento ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/ch03.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/ch03.htm</a> 03/28/02, 38271 bytes� <BR>
        > The International Workingmen's Association, Poland and the Russian Menace� <BR>
        > ... Within a few months, the plans were ready. The Prussians were to concentrate on the Rhine and the Muscovites were to follow them. But then "the vanguard turned against the main army", as Lafayette said in the Chamber of Deputies. The uprising in Warsaw saved Europe from a second anti-Jacobin ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867/01/22.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867/01/22.htm</a> 02/27/02, 12369 bytes� <BR>
        > IWMA 1872: Report of the General Council� <BR>
        > ... German state to another, suppression of proletarian papers, military brutality, and police-chicane in all forms, did not prevent the International vanguard of the German working class from acting up to the Brunswick manifesto, Vogel von Falkenstein, by an ukase of September 21st [1870], interdicted ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/iwma/hague-report.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/iwma/hague-report.htm</a> 02/27/02, 27437 bytes� <BR>
        > For Poland� <BR>
        > ... Poland. The constitution of 1791, embodying the rights of man, became the banner of the revolution on the banks of the Vistula and made Poland the vanguard of revolutionary France, and that at a moment when the three powers which had already plundered Poland were uniting to march on Paris and to stifle ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/03/24.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/03/24.htm</a> 02/07/02, 8975 bytes� <BR>
        > The International Workingmen's Association, Fictitious Splits in the International� <BR>
        > ... very persistence of the attacks to which the General Council is subjected by all the enemies of the proletarian movement that has placed it in the vanguard of the defenders of the International Working Men's Association. V. Having dealt with the International, such as it is, the Sixteen proceed to tell ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/03/fictitious-splits.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/03/fictitious-splits.htm</a> 02/22/02, 109591 bytes� <BR>
        > Eighteenth Brumaire: Chapter 7 (abstract)� <BR>
        > ... officers, averse to fighting under the banner of the Montagnards because of the memories of June, 1848 and 1849, and May, 1850, it left to its vanguard, the secret societies, the task of saving the insurrectionary honor of Paris, which the bourgeoisie had surrendered to the military so unresistingly ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/hist-mat/18-brum/ch07.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/hist-mat/18-brum/ch07.htm</a> 02/01/02, 29606 bytes� <BR>
        > Communist Manifesto (Preface)� <BR>
        > ... . The Tsar was proclaimed the chief of European reaction. Today, he is a prisoner of war of the revolution in Gatchina [B], and Russia forms the vanguard of revolutionary action in Europe. The Communist Manifesto had, as its object, the proclamation of the inevitable impending dissolution of modern bourgeois ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm</a> 02/28/02, 43130 bytes� <BR>
        > Preface to Volume 7 of Marx-Engels Collected Works� <BR>
        > ... revolutionary writers, pamphleteers and true tribunes of the people, who organised and led the democratic and proletarian movements and headed the vanguard of the working class. The revolutions of 1848-49 were indeed the first crucial practical test for Marxism both as the scientific world outlook of ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume07/preface.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume07/preface.htm</a> 01/11/02, 52354 bytes� <BR>
        > The Communists and Karl Heinzen by Frederick Engels�� <BR>
        > ... ��� War [126]) were firstly always reactionary manifestations and were secondly always crushed. The industrial proletariat of the towns has become the vanguard of all modern democracy; the urban petty bourgeoisie and still more the peasants depend on its initiative completely. The French Revolution of ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/09/26.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/09/26.htm</a> 01/21/02, 43945 bytes� <BR>
        > Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 231-232 February 1849� <BR>
        > ... ; [quoting Heinrich Heine] the realm of pious wishes, the policy of fantasy. How splendid it would be if the Croats, Pandours and Cossacks formed the vanguard of European democracy, if the ambassador of a republic of Siberia were to present his credentials in Paris! Certainly, such prospects would be ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/02/15.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/02/15.htm</a> 01/21/02, 47131 bytes� <BR>
        > Results� <BR>
        > ... , which not only replaces school cramming, but renders harmless the confused religious notions connected with it, and even places the workers in the vanguard of the national movement of England. Necessity is the mother of invention, and what is still more important, of thought and action. The English ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-working-class/ch07.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-working-class/ch07.htm</a> 01/28/02, 99971 bytes� <BR>
        > <BR>
        > Preface to Volume 6 of Marx-Engels Collected Works� <BR>
        > ... to the peasantry and urban petty bourgeoisie, Engels argued that not the peasantry but ���the industrial proletariat of the towns has become the vanguard of all modern democracy; the urban petty bourgeoisie and still more the peasants depend on its initiative completely��� (see this volume, p. 295). Marx ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume06/preface.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume06/preface.htm</a> 01/11/02, 41674 bytes� <BR>
        > Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 236 February 1849� <BR>
        > ... further back to the Slovak mountain towns, where, separated from the main army by the Danube bend, he stands quite isolated and powerless. Then, the vanguard of the main royal imperial army, even the main army itself, had to be thrown back five to seven miles further; for it is not long since Windischgr ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/03.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/03/03.htm</a> 01/21/02, 12110 bytes� <BR>
        > Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 283 April 1849� <BR>
        > ... Komorn. No credence can be given to a martial-law report that the encirclement area of Komorn has been re-established. The outposts of the Magyar vanguard are reported to be already at Tyrnau, five miles from Pressburg. According to other reports they are two miles from Pressburg, and people claim to ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/04/27b.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/04/27b.htm</a> 01/21/02, 3216 bytes� <BR>
        > Neue Rheinsiche Zeitung No. 265 April 1849� <BR>
        > ... and then headed west; by way of Rimaszombat he went to Losoncz, and took up a position on the Ipoly (Eipel) between Losoncz and Balassa-Gyarmat. His vanguard is said to have pushed forward as far as Nograd. The heroic Ramberg beat a hasty retreat by way of Hatvan on the very worst roads to Waitzen on ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/04/06.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/04/06.htm</a> 01/21/02, 13812 bytes� <BR>
        > Revolution and Counter-Revolution-Ch 17�� <BR>
        > ... Marx dedicated the first volume of "Capital." "Dedicated To My Never-To-Be-Forgotten Friend The Brave, True, Noble Fighter In The Van-Guard Of The Proletariat, WILHELM WOLFF. Born at Tornau, June 21st, 1809. Died in exile at Manchester, 9th May, 1864."�� Contents | Notes | Next ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/germany/ch17.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/germany/ch17.htm</a> 01/30/02, 11384 bytes� <BR>
        > The International Workingmen's Association, Statement regarding the causes of the breach with the Social-Demokrat� <BR>
        > ... its forms, the Tuileries form and the form of the Palais-Royal, and never for a moment considered the plan of selling its historical honour as the vanguard of the revolution for a mess of pottage". The statement concluded with the words: "We recommend, this example to the German workers." ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/03/15.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/03/15.htm</a> 02/15/02, 8721 bytes� <BR>
        > The Peasant War in Germany: Addendum�� <BR>
        > ... of the British, and to the cruel suppression of the French movements on the other, that for the present moment the German workers form the vanguard of the proletarian struggle. How long events will allow them to occupy this post of honour cannot be foreseen. But as long as they are placed in it, let ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/peasant-war-germany/ch0b.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/peasant-war-germany/ch0b.htm</a> 01/30/02, 15699 bytes� <BR>
        > The Life and Work of Karl Marx: Outstanding Dates� <BR>
        > ... January 21, 1882 Marx and Engels write a preface to the Russian edition of the Manifesto of the Communist Party, stating that ���Russia forms the vanguard of revolutionary action in Europe��� February-October With his health deteriorating, Marx goes to Algeria, the south of France and Switzerland for a ...<BR>
        > <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/bio/marx/lifeandwork.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/bio/marx/lifeandwork.htm</a> 02/28/02, 64790 bytes� <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > ----- Original Message -----<BR>
        > From: mathias@...<BR>
        > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 5:54 AM<BR>
        > To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com<BR>
        > Subject: [Sartre] Marx<BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > What you are describing is not Marxism, at best it is Leninism. Marx never talked about a vanguard party that was Lenin's thing and even then Lenin believed that workers's on their own would only develop a "trade-union consciousness" which leads them to collaboration with the ruling class. In Lenin's view workers could not develop revolutionary class consciousness by themselves. If Lenin believed in a pre determined revolutionary outcome he would have never develpped his theory of the vanguard party.� <BR>
        > <BR>
        > The conditions man finds him/herself in has been pre determined and to a large extent their individual role in society is determined by that. There does not exist however a set script by which a person unknowingly (or knowingly) lives their lives. The dialectic is meant to be a tool by which one (or a class) can grasp and interpret material reality and the process of change. By means of this tool man begins to free her/himself from the "situation."<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Marx never developed a utopian idea of what life would look like after the "revolution" rather he applied his science of dialectics to the study of his surroundings which is why he wrote� book called Capital and not a book called socialism.<BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > ----- Original Message -----<BR>
        > From: Christopher Bobo<BR>
        > Sent: 4/5/2002 2:22:46 AM<BR>
        > To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com<BR>
        > Subject: Re: Re: [Sartre] Re: Marxism<BR>
        > <BR>
        > > <html><body><BR>
        > >� <BR>
        > >� <BR>
        > > <tt><BR>
        > > I always read marxism as fundamentally being about the relationship of societies to the means of production in the context of an unfolding dialectical materialism.� The individual in this context does not so much develop his or her own understanding and orientation to the world; rather, the individual assumes a certain pre-determined role by adopting a ready made class consciousness, the content of which is dictated by class vanguard (ruler class), the party.� Even here, the party cadres do not attempt to create in free form fashion their own particular ideology, rather, the apply a pre-determined ideology--say marxism-leninism--to a set of facts and try to read the right conclusions as a fortune teller might with tarot cards or tea leaves.� After all, what is at play in history is not individuals, per se, but historical material forces--thesis, antithesis and synthesis, in which the individual only plays out his or her pre-determined class role.� The bourgeois factory owner is the thesis and plays out his or her role as personified capital, extracting surplus value from labor like an inhuman vampiric force, while his antithesis, the worker suffers the alienation of his or labor.� Eventually, the laborer realizes his or her condition, and plays his or her historical role by developing revolutionary class consciousness and so enters into the praxis--under the leadership of the party--in which role he violently seizes control of the means of production from the blood-sucking capitalist, as was pre-ordained by the unfolding of the dialectic of historical materialism.� And so, as Marx conceived it, the proletarian revolution was/is inevitable because the various actors have no choice but to play out the roles that the dialectical has foreordained for them.�� <BR><BR>
        > > <BR><BR>
        > > Of course, all of this terribly mistaken, for it does not take into consideration the real freedom of individuals to ad lib.� The capitalist decides not to act like a vampire and the worker decides not be behave like a revolutionary or to follow the dictates of the class vanguard in the form of the party. Indeed, instead of becoming the liberator of the workers, the party becomes their oppressor.� And so, before the marxist quite knows what has happened, the metaphysical machinery of the dialectic of historical materialism has gone haywire and marxism finds itself on the ash heap of history.�� <BR><BR>
        > > <BR><BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
        > <BR>
        > </tt>
        >
        > <br>
        >
        >
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      • John Foster
        Seems to me that the term used by Marx, vanguard, was indicative of the front line troops in a military situation. Vanguard now is used not so much to denote
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 5, 2002
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          Seems to me that the term used by Marx, vanguard, was indicative of the
          'front line' troops in a military situation. Vanguard now is used not so
          much to denote the front line, but rather to be used in a connotative sense,
          as in Vanguard Publishers.

          chao

          john foster

          PS. If you want to understand the sociology of Marx, then it would be
          recommended to read George Lukacs, who incidentally probably influenced
          Sartre while he was teaching or lecturing in France. I can supply many other
          references as well; however there is a definite convergence of thought,
          vis-a-vis French Existentialism, Cathololic theology, and the sociology of
          Marx (cf. Liberation Theology, Post-war Existential Marxism).



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Christopher Bobo <cbobo@...>
          To: Sartre_yahoogr <Sartre@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 8:14 AM
        • Christopher Bobo
          I think you need to read the passages more carefully. Marx clearly speaks of the General Council of the International Working s Men s Association (then the
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 5, 2002
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            I think you need to read the passages more carefully. Marx clearly speaks of the General Council of the International Working's Men's Association (then the Party) as the vanguard. Under Lenin that became the General Secretary of the Communist Party. Marx also spoke of "secret societies" as being at the center of the vanguard. The secret societies, or inner circle, became the Politburo. I think it's clear not only that Marx used the term "vanguard" but that he used it as Lenin used it, to refer to the organzied association or party structure and especially the inner circle, general council or "secret societies" as constituting the vanguard of the workers' movement. Lenin did not pervert marxism, he only brought it to fruition as a faithful adherent. And that's my humble opinion and two cents worth.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: mathias@...
            Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 8:38 AM
            To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: Re: [Sartre] Marx and the Party Vanguard

            -


            Thanks for the labor of pulling up all the Marx stuff. In my post I mentioned that Marx never talked of the vanguard party but that the Theory of the Vanguard Party is a creation of Lenin. I do not deny that Marx uses the word vanguard, as many people do, however using the word vanguard is far different than implying agreement with the concept of the vanguard party.

            Whether or not Lenin was Marx's "best" student is subjective, and whether or not Lenin's ideas are consistent with Marxism was and is still a debate. Of course Lenin's interpretations gained greater notoriety because after all he was leader of the first succesful communist revolution.


            My point:

            we cant take what Lenin said and try to use that to argue against what Marx said.

            Mathias Bolton


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • tommy pratama
            Dear friends, sorry to interfere your debate concerning Sartre, Marx, and vanguard (the party, but I have something to say here regarding your debate. First of
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 12, 2002
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              Dear friends, sorry to interfere your debate
              concerning Sartre, Marx, and vanguard (the
              party, but I have something to say here
              regarding your debate.
              First of all, I'm quite annoyed by Bobo's
              statement that Marxism isn't freedom at all,
              because the vanguard or party did/do the
              determination on people so that conclude there's
              no freedom at all.
              My penniless opinion is either Sartre or Marx
              think freedom is essential to human being or the
              for-itself. Sartre thought man is condemned to
              be free, his essence is freedom, meanwhile Marx,
              too thought that human is ought to be free (free
              from and free to). This is the meeting point
              between those two. In Critique of Dialectical
              Reason Sartre’ project is to integrate freedom
              and necessity (or we can say history). According
              to Sartre, we cannot afford to ignore the
              material condition or situation we live in
              (being-in-the world), we should do what he
              called totalization. In this totalization, we
              put ourselves in history of human being that
              leads us to our presence situation; indeed the
              examiner should be examined too. In other word
              we should re-live our life in order to
              understand our presence situation. With
              totalization we can give meaning
              Sartre didn't deny material determination; he
              just thought that condition limits our fields of
              choices. This is an important point to
              understand that freedom is not an absolute
              freedom without concerning our situation.
              Freedom is the necessity living in constraint in
              order to the fulfilment of our needs. Our
              presence now is a result of practico-inert
              (praxis upon matter [that results a condition
              that is not intended in the beginning of
              praxis] –or to simplify it, it’s a processed
              matter). Our social structure now doesn’t allow
              us to retain our freedom; on contrary we are
              dominated by the Other’s totalization (this is a
              reciprocal relationship, we totalise ours and
              theirs, and they too do the same thing). This
              domination –of course this regards Power- is not
              only physical (as I and my fellow worker friend
              in third world country experience everyday), but
              hegemonical too. In market we are forced to
              follow their rule of game, in a bus queue (this
              is Sartre’s most famous example) we are
              determined by the capacity of the bus, in a
              factory we have to follow division of labour and
              once again our method of work is pre-determined.
              So we fall into seriality, atomized. We are
              altered, simply made other
              In order to overcome this seriality Sartre
              offered us a fused group (a group that will
              develop itself into sworn/oath group) we should
              establish. This group is constructed based on
              common interest. In this group each member
              recognizes the other member as identical himself
              for they have one aim to achieve. ‘I’
              become ‘We’. And the departure from individual
              from collective is possible. But this fused
              group is a temporary one. Its characteristic is
              temporary-ness. As soon the common problem is
              solved, the group once again decent to
              seriality. The group must transform itself into
              a pledge group. A group that emerges from
              individual to collective with the group itself
              as a totalisator. And this group is made to
              preserve the freedom-condition achieved.
              This is not a vanguard in term of an alien
              entity to the group itself, at this point Sartre
              attacked Lenin’s Bolshevik Party (Sartre:
              Critique of Dialectical Reason). This group must
              be authentic; it must represent the interest of
              its member, not the interest of the elite that
              claim themselves as the so-called leader of the
              masses. The masses must lead themselves to
              achieve their goal.
              So here’s the conclusion, I realize that I’m
              essentially free, but my situation doesn’t allow
              me to retain it, so what I have to do is to
              reclaim that freedom from the system that
              oppress my freedom.
              I’ll be very thankful if you all would give your
              feedback. Adieu



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            • Tommy Beavitt
              Dear other Tommy, It is funny that you should write this letter this morning as I was just at that moment forming a very similar thesis in response to a number
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 12, 2002
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                Dear other Tommy,

                It is funny that you should write this letter this morning as I was
                just at that moment forming a very similar thesis in response to a
                number of stimuli not directly associated with this list. For
                example, I was just reading (as part of my job as abstractor) an
                article in the Ivy Business Journal entitled Analyzing and Managing
                Country Risks. This article refers to the Index of Economic Freedom,
                a measure used to define the extent to which governments in different
                countries intervene in the business which takes place there to take
                away potential profits. This Index, according to the writer, David W.
                Conklin, should be used to form a risk-return analysis for any
                country in which business is planned.

                Such is the nature of business.

                Then I am thinking about the crisis in Israel/Palestine which, it
                seems, is determined largely in Marxist terms as the struggle between
                the international capitalist classes (represented by Israel) and the
                international proletariat (represented by Palestine). I have been
                having a debate on another forum which is seeking to establish the
                extent to which this is a conflict characterised by race issues.

                It seems though, that this is a conflict defined primarily in
                economic terms. It is not the number of "Jews" in influential
                positions in America which guarantee America's support for the state
                of Israel but rather the extent to which Israel, as a successful
                capitalist country, has an interest in common with the USA, the
                definitive successful capitalist country.

                I am very interested in your analysis of Sartre's position regarding
                group entities and their freedom/authenticity. I haven't actually
                read the Critique of Dialectical Reason, probably because certain
                people have said that it is dull. Now I am beginning to see why!

                The point raised in the Ivy Business Journal article, that "economic
                freedom" is something that can be considered a good, and consequently
                that a country can be considered bad from the perspective of
                international business to the extent that it doesn't guarantee a high
                level of "economic freedom", is an important one. There is this
                fiction perpetrated by global capitalists that everyone can live
                better if there is an increased amount of liberty for capitalists to
                do business in the world. This is something I have not found myself
                able to argue effectively against until now. I have always said,
                globalism is flawed but it is better than anything anybody else is
                offering.

                Now I am beginning to see that global capitalism can only be made to
                work in the interests of the people in the world to the extent that
                it is mitigated by government policy. Unfortunately for those who
                would assess the risks of doing business in a foreign country this
                will place that country further down on the Index of Economic Freedom.

                I have a question for you (since I don't have time to read the
                Critique): can this Group's authentic existence be framed in terms
                other than revolution? In other words, if we all were to agree that
                globalism is here to stay but it must be increasingly mitigated by
                social engineering, is there any way that this authentic Group can be
                global in reach but not prone to replacing globalism with something
                worse?

                the other Tommy

                At 2:44 pm +0700 12/4/02, tommy pratama wrote:
                >Dear friends, sorry to interfere your debate
                >concerning Sartre, Marx, and vanguard (the
                >party, but I have something to say here
                >regarding your debate.
                >First of all, I'm quite annoyed by Bobo's
                >statement that Marxism isn't freedom at all,
                >because the vanguard or party did/do the
                >determination on people so that conclude there's
                >no freedom at all.
                >My penniless opinion is either Sartre or Marx
                >think freedom is essential to human being or the
                >for-itself. Sartre thought man is condemned to
                >be free, his essence is freedom, meanwhile Marx,
                >too thought that human is ought to be free (free
                > from and free to). This is the meeting point
                >between those two. In Critique of Dialectical
                >Reason Sartre’ project is to integrate freedom
                >and necessity (or we can say history). According
                >to Sartre, we cannot afford to ignore the
                >material condition or situation we live in
                >(being-in-the world), we should do what he
                >called totalization. In this totalization, we
                >put ourselves in history of human being that
                >leads us to our presence situation; indeed the
                >examiner should be examined too. In other word
                >we should re-live our life in order to
                >understand our presence situation. With
                >totalization we can give meaning
                >Sartre didn't deny material determination; he
                >just thought that condition limits our fields of
                >choices. This is an important point to
                >understand that freedom is not an absolute
                >freedom without concerning our situation.
                >Freedom is the necessity living in constraint in
                >order to the fulfilment of our needs. Our
                >presence now is a result of practico-inert
                >(praxis upon matter [that results a condition
                >that is not intended in the beginning of
                >praxis] –or to simplify it, it’s a processed
                >matter). Our social structure now doesn’t allow
                >us to retain our freedom; on contrary we are
                >dominated by the Other’s totalization (this is a
                >reciprocal relationship, we totalise ours and
                >theirs, and they too do the same thing). This
                >domination –of course this regards Power- is not
                >only physical (as I and my fellow worker friend
                >in third world country experience everyday), but
                >hegemonical too. In market we are forced to
                >follow their rule of game, in a bus queue (this
                >is Sartre’s most famous example) we are
                >determined by the capacity of the bus, in a
                >factory we have to follow division of labour and
                >once again our method of work is pre-determined.
                >So we fall into seriality, atomized. We are
                >altered, simply made other
                >In order to overcome this seriality Sartre
                >offered us a fused group (a group that will
                >develop itself into sworn/oath group) we should
                >establish. This group is constructed based on
                >common interest. In this group each member
                >recognizes the other member as identical himself
                >for they have one aim to achieve. ‘I’
                >become ‘We’. And the departure from individual
                > from collective is possible. But this fused
                >group is a temporary one. Its characteristic is
                >temporary-ness. As soon the common problem is
                >solved, the group once again decent to
                >seriality. The group must transform itself into
                >a pledge group. A group that emerges from
                >individual to collective with the group itself
                >as a totalisator. And this group is made to
                >preserve the freedom-condition achieved.
                >This is not a vanguard in term of an alien
                >entity to the group itself, at this point Sartre
                >attacked Lenin’s Bolshevik Party (Sartre:
                >Critique of Dialectical Reason). This group must
                >be authentic; it must represent the interest of
                >its member, not the interest of the elite that
                >claim themselves as the so-called leader of the
                >masses. The masses must lead themselves to
                >achieve their goal.
                >So here’s the conclusion, I realize that I’m
                >essentially free, but my situation doesn’t allow
                >me to retain it, so what I have to do is to
                >reclaim that freedom from the system that
                >oppress my freedom.
                >I’ll be very thankful if you all would give your
                >feedback. Adieu
              • willow Jones
                Hi. I am new to this board. I live in Brighton, England and am currently doing a degree in philosophy. thought I d join the board as I have to write an essay
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 12, 2002
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                  Hi. I am new to this board. I live in Brighton, England and am currently
                  doing a degree in philosophy.

                  thought I'd join the board as I have to write an essay on Sartre and having
                  just split up with my boyfriend I'm not in a particular essay writing mode!
                  so am looking for some inspiration. i would love anyone's opinions on
                  Sartre's views about the other and freedom, however wacky or random.
                  I expect you know being Sartre fans that the other was the only thing that
                  could take away our freedom? but is this such a big deal? aren't we really
                  still free because we can give the other 'the look' back?
                  and is there anyway we can avoid being given 'the look?'

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                • Tommy Beavitt
                  Hello Willow and welcome to the list. There are a few of us Brits on this list. In fact, my sister lives in Brighton. It is a cool place! Your ideas of the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 12, 2002
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                    Hello Willow and welcome to the list. There are a few of us Brits on
                    this list. In fact, my sister lives in Brighton. It is a cool place!

                    Your ideas of the Other must be in sharp focus having split up with
                    your boyfriend. I know how it feels (well, I think I do)

                    I seem to recall it being said somewhere in Being and Nothingness
                    that the Self required the Other in order to exist.

                    There was a discussion about that recently. Hmm, where was it? Ah, here we are:

                    At 6:53 pm +0000 31/3/02, wilbro99 wrote:
                    >The for-itself is a self-consciousness that depends upon a not-itself
                    >to posit itself, a subject that depends upon an object, as it were.
                    >When it tries to find itself as an object, it finds nothing, unless,
                    >in bad faith it reifies itself. Beginning with just an awareness of
                    >awareness, this structure can be discovered. However, that which is
                    >discovered is not the structure, for the structure is a reflection
                    >upon that discovery. In other words, the structure is either made of
                    >whole cloth, a speculation, or it derives from experience.
                    >Considering the structure alone, it has the sense of having been
                    >derived from experience; it comports to what I know.
                    >
                    >Sartre now shifts gears. That nothing becomes the emptiness that
                    >powers the desire to fill that emptiness. He defines it as the
                    >for-itself trying to become the in-itself. The structure again is
                    >there. This is the movement of the seeker seeking the object of its
                    >desire. At this point, Sartre says that is the way it is. There is no
                    >escape, no exit. Life is absurd, a "useless passion," and so on.
                    >
                    >In my view, that is the way it is unless the "bad faith" of a subtle
                    >reification Sartre does not address is broken. The emptiness that
                    >powers the desire "to be" can be discovered to be the upshot of
                    >taking oneself as the self of experience, of an identity with a
                    >remembered self. He considers that "me" to be part and parcel of
                    >for-itself. He says it can not be separated.
                    >
                    >The condition for that realization, or separation, is that the way of
                    >desire goes nowhere, and instead of trying to fill that emptiness
                    >with choice, stay passive until the act of identity breaks. In other
                    >words, stop feeding it and it will cease to be. However, this is only
                    >my experience of it. This is why I have said elsewhere that Sartre's
                    >structure of the self fits neatly into Kierkegaard's esthetic sphere
                    >of existence, and that his whole structure collapses then the rug is
                    >pulled out from under that "me."

                    I like your idea about giving the look back! Perhaps Simone de
                    Beauvoir had a similar thought!

                    I think it is probably impossible to avoid being given 'the look'.
                    This would result in solipsism which Sartre was very careful to avoid.

                    Well, I hope it goes well. Feel free to post your essay up here for comment.

                    Tommy Beavitt


                    >Hi. I am new to this board. I live in Brighton, England and am currently
                    >doing a degree in philosophy.
                    >
                    >thought I'd join the board as I have to write an essay on Sartre and having
                    >just split up with my boyfriend I'm not in a particular essay writing mode!
                    >so am looking for some inspiration. i would love anyone's opinions on
                    >Sartre's views about the other and freedom, however wacky or random.
                    >I expect you know being Sartre fans that the other was the only thing that
                    >could take away our freedom? but is this such a big deal? aren't we really
                    >still free because we can give the other 'the look' back?
                    >and is there anyway we can avoid being given 'the look?'
                    >
                  • decker150
                    Hello Willow, It really seems to me that the look of the other suggest some interpretation of the look. What does it mean when someone looks at you? Am I to
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 12, 2002
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                      Hello Willow,

                      It really seems to me that the look of the other suggest some
                      interpretation of the look. What does it mean when someone looks
                      at you? Am I to assume that every look is an attempt to encroach, to
                      exhibit domination, to be judged? Well, perhaps some looks signify
                      kindness, friendship. Are we not also looked at by those who admire
                      us?

                      Ultimately, it has something to do with what the look means or how the
                      you interpret the look of others. Models are looked at, celebrities,
                      leaders. We all fall under the all seeing eyes of the world.
                      Everywhere you turn you encounter a fellow human being.

                      I like your idea about looking back. And what will your look mean?
                      How will it be understood by those who see you gazing back at them?
                      Or how about not looking back at all, but pull a Zen meditation stare
                      on them and look placidly into your own higher state of consciousness;
                      that should really get them wondering.

                      Joe
                    • Christopher Bobo
                      Tommy: ... statement that Marxism isn t freedom at all, because the vanguard or party did/do the determination on people so that conclude there s no freedom at
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 12, 2002
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                        Tommy:

                        You wrote:
                        >>First of all, I'm quite annoyed by Bobo's
                        statement that Marxism isn't freedom at all,
                        because the vanguard or party did/do the
                        determination on people so that conclude there's
                        no freedom at all.<<

                        Rest assured that I am pleased to have caused such annoyance and to have arouse you to so thoughtful a consideration of these questions.

                        You also wrote:
                        >>My penniless opinion is either Sartre or Marx
                        think freedom is essential to human being or the
                        for-itself. <

                        Your opinion is far from penniless, as you say, and actually quite right. Both Marx and Sartre believed that by embracing communism they would be advancing the cause of human freedom. Unfortunately,as we well known, communism, because of some of its essential features, not least of which is the role of the party infrastructure with respect to the masses, is actually antithetical to human freedom. Marx can perhaps be foregiven for not having actually witnessed communist systems in operation, even though in large measure, he was the true author of those systems that produced. Perhaps even Sartre can be forgiven for his hopeful expectation that Marxism might yet produce greater freedom for the individual, despite the fact that Merleau-Ponty had wisely and patiently pointed out to him that his expectations were in vain. However, I think there is absolutely no excuse for anyone today hoping or expecting a communist paradise on earth.

                        Totalization is nothing but totalitarianism for existentialists. It is in the concept of totalization that we have the existential rationalization for why the individual should surrender his or her freedom to history, or society, or some higher good. As Rousseau observed, man is born free but is every where in chains, and he asks how this came about. It came about through rationalizations of enslavement to history, to material conditions, to society at large, etc that can be found int Sartre's conception of totalization and Marx's idea of class consciousness and historical materilism. It is Sartre's very spirit of serious which he criticizes with respect to others, that leads him into the bad faith of totalization, where we adopt a ready made consciousness to suit, in the tastes of others, our historical and material conditions.

                        What Sartre certainly failed to realize is that groups have a life of their own and once they form, they do not tend to dissolve. It very soon comes to appear to them that their task is Sisyphean and that their task will never be accomplished. I suppose that is in part why communist systems like the Soviet Union, China, No. Korea and Cuba have dictators who once in office, must die in office. No doubt this also explains why communist and marxist governments must keep an iron grip on power.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: tommy pratama
                        Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:22 AM
                        To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: Re: Re: [Sartre] Marx and the Party Vanguard

                        Dear friends, sorry to interfere your debate
                        concerning Sartre, Marx, and vanguard (the
                        party, but I have something to say here
                        regarding your debate.
                        First of all, I'm quite annoyed by Bobo's
                        statement that Marxism isn't freedom at all,
                        because the vanguard or party did/do the
                        determination on people so that conclude there's
                        no freedom at all.
                        My penniless opinion is either Sartre or Marx
                        think freedom is essential to human being or the
                        for-itself. Sartre thought man is condemned to
                        be free, his essence is freedom, meanwhile Marx,
                        too thought that human is ought to be free (free
                        from and free to). This is the meeting point
                        between those two. In Critique of Dialectical
                        Reason Sartre’ project is to integrate freedom
                        and necessity (or we can say history). According
                        to Sartre, we cannot afford to ignore the
                        material condition or situation we live in
                        (being-in-the world), we should do what he
                        called totalization. In this totalization, we
                        put ourselves in history of human being that
                        leads us to our presence situation; indeed the
                        examiner should be examined too. In other word
                        we should re-live our life in order to
                        understand our presence situation. With
                        totalization we can give meaning
                        Sartre didn't deny material determination; he
                        just thought that condition limits our fields of
                        choices. This is an important point to
                        understand that freedom is not an absolute
                        freedom without concerning our situation.
                        Freedom is the necessity living in constraint in
                        order to the fulfilment of our needs. Our
                        presence now is a result of practico-inert
                        (praxis upon matter [that results a condition
                        that is not intended in the beginning of
                        praxis] –or to simplify it, it’s a processed
                        matter). Our social structure now doesn’t allow
                        us to retain our freedom; on contrary we are
                        dominated by the Other’s totalization (this is a
                        reciprocal relationship, we totalise ours and
                        theirs, and they too do the same thing). This
                        domination –of course this regards Power- is not
                        only physical (as I and my fellow worker friend
                        in third world country experience everyday), but
                        hegemonical too. In market we are forced to
                        follow their rule of game, in a bus queue (this
                        is Sartre’s most famous example) we are
                        determined by the capacity of the bus, in a
                        factory we have to follow division of labour and
                        once again our method of work is pre-determined.
                        So we fall into seriality, atomized. We are
                        altered, simply made other
                        In order to overcome this seriality Sartre
                        offered us a fused group (a group that will
                        develop itself into sworn/oath group) we should
                        establish. This group is constructed based on
                        common interest. In this group each member
                        recognizes the other member as identical himself
                        for they have one aim to achieve. ‘I’
                        become ‘We’. And the departure from individual
                        from collective is possible. But this fused
                        group is a temporary one. Its characteristic is
                        temporary-ness. As soon the common problem is
                        solved, the group once again decent to
                        seriality. The group must transform itself into
                        a pledge group. A group that emerges from
                        individual to collective with the group itself
                        as a totalisator. And this group is made to
                        preserve the freedom-condition achieved.
                        This is not a vanguard in term of an alien
                        entity to the group itself, at this point Sartre
                        attacked Lenin’s Bolshevik Party (Sartre:
                        Critique of Dialectical Reason). This group must
                        be authentic; it must represent the interest of
                        its member, not the interest of the elite that
                        claim themselves as the so-called leader of the
                        masses. The masses must lead themselves to
                        achieve their goal.
                        So here’s the conclusion, I realize that I’m
                        essentially free, but my situation doesn’t allow
                        me to retain it, so what I have to do is to
                        reclaim that freedom from the system that
                        oppress my freedom.
                        I’ll be very thankful if you all would give your
                        feedback. Adieu


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • George Walton
                        Tommy, Actually, the Self [which is merely an existentially persuasive delusion, of course] needs the Other in order to engage philosophically. If you are
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 12, 2002
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                          Tommy,

                          Actually, the Self [which is merely an existentially
                          persuasive delusion, of course] needs the Other in
                          order to engage philosophically.

                          If you are stranded alone on an island, the only
                          contingencies you'll be forced to negociate are those
                          in nature. Let another human being wash up on shore,
                          however, and then the contingencies start to revolve
                          more and more around this, instead: "Do WHAT?! Says
                          WHO?".

                          And futher, given that, essentially, there is no way
                          to circumscribe either prescriptively or
                          proscriptively, how we OUGHT to interact socially, it
                          will, given enough time, eventually revolve around the
                          way moral parameters are derived "in reality": around
                          those who have the power to enforce one rendition over
                          another.

                          Biggie




                          --- Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...> wrote:
                          > Hello Willow and welcome to the list. There are a
                          > few of us Brits on
                          > this list. In fact, my sister lives in Brighton. It
                          > is a cool place!
                          >
                          > Your ideas of the Other must be in sharp focus
                          > having split up with
                          > your boyfriend. I know how it feels (well, I think I
                          > do)
                          >
                          > I seem to recall it being said somewhere in Being
                          > and Nothingness
                          > that the Self required the Other in order to exist.
                          >
                          > There was a discussion about that recently. Hmm,
                          > where was it? Ah, here we are:
                          >
                          > At 6:53 pm +0000 31/3/02, wilbro99 wrote:
                          > >The for-itself is a self-consciousness that depends
                          > upon a not-itself
                          > >to posit itself, a subject that depends upon an
                          > object, as it were.
                          > >When it tries to find itself as an object, it finds
                          > nothing, unless,
                          > >in bad faith it reifies itself. Beginning with just
                          > an awareness of
                          > >awareness, this structure can be discovered.
                          > However, that which is
                          > >discovered is not the structure, for the structure
                          > is a reflection
                          > >upon that discovery. In other words, the structure
                          > is either made of
                          > >whole cloth, a speculation, or it derives from
                          > experience.
                          > >Considering the structure alone, it has the sense
                          > of having been
                          > >derived from experience; it comports to what I
                          > know.
                          > >
                          > >Sartre now shifts gears. That nothing becomes the
                          > emptiness that
                          > >powers the desire to fill that emptiness. He
                          > defines it as the
                          > >for-itself trying to become the in-itself. The
                          > structure again is
                          > >there. This is the movement of the seeker seeking
                          > the object of its
                          > >desire. At this point, Sartre says that is the way
                          > it is. There is no
                          > >escape, no exit. Life is absurd, a "useless
                          > passion," and so on.
                          > >
                          > >In my view, that is the way it is unless the "bad
                          > faith" of a subtle
                          > >reification Sartre does not address is broken. The
                          > emptiness that
                          > >powers the desire "to be" can be discovered to be
                          > the upshot of
                          > >taking oneself as the self of experience, of an
                          > identity with a
                          > >remembered self. He considers that "me" to be part
                          > and parcel of
                          > >for-itself. He says it can not be separated.
                          > >
                          > >The condition for that realization, or separation,
                          > is that the way of
                          > >desire goes nowhere, and instead of trying to fill
                          > that emptiness
                          > >with choice, stay passive until the act of identity
                          > breaks. In other
                          > >words, stop feeding it and it will cease to be.
                          > However, this is only
                          > >my experience of it. This is why I have said
                          > elsewhere that Sartre's
                          > >structure of the self fits neatly into
                          > Kierkegaard's esthetic sphere
                          > >of existence, and that his whole structure
                          > collapses then the rug is
                          > >pulled out from under that "me."
                          >
                          > I like your idea about giving the look back! Perhaps
                          > Simone de
                          > Beauvoir had a similar thought!
                          >
                          > I think it is probably impossible to avoid being
                          > given 'the look'.
                          > This would result in solipsism which Sartre was very
                          > careful to avoid.
                          >
                          > Well, I hope it goes well. Feel free to post your
                          > essay up here for comment.
                          >
                          > Tommy Beavitt
                          >
                          >
                          > >Hi. I am new to this board. I live in Brighton,
                          > England and am currently
                          > >doing a degree in philosophy.
                          > >
                          > >thought I'd join the board as I have to write an
                          > essay on Sartre and having
                          > >just split up with my boyfriend I'm not in a
                          > particular essay writing mode!
                          > >so am looking for some inspiration. i would love
                          > anyone's opinions on
                          > >Sartre's views about the other and freedom, however
                          > wacky or random.
                          > >I expect you know being Sartre fans that the other
                          > was the only thing that
                          > >could take away our freedom? but is this such a
                          > big deal? aren't we really
                          > >still free because we can give the other 'the look'
                          > back?
                          > >and is there anyway we can avoid being given 'the
                          > look?'
                          > >
                          >
                          >


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                        • willow Jones
                          hi biggie, your point about moral parameters was interesting. Sartre uses the example of shame that when the other gives us the look we feel shame. Are we
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 13, 2002
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                            hi biggie,
                            your point about 'moral parameters' was interesting. Sartre uses the example
                            of shame that when the other gives us 'the look' we feel shame. Are we
                            completely powerless in the face of these moral parameters or do we have at
                            least some choice in the emotion we have when the other looks at us. When
                            Sartre talks about looking back is this our ability to fight against them.

                            joe, I guess the fact that there can be nice, friendly look is why we don't
                            completely renounce the other and go and live on a deserts island! but
                            Sartre was quite pessimistic really. He saw all interpersonal relations as
                            being based on conflict. Whether it's a nice or nasty look the other is
                            still turning as into an object thus thtreatening our freedom

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