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Marx

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  • mathias@sigmaweb.net
    What you are describing is not Marxism, at best it is Leninism. Marx never talked about a vanguard party that was Lenin s thing and even then Lenin believed
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 5, 2002
      What you are describing is not Marxism, at best it is Leninism. Marx never talked about a vanguard party that was Lenin's thing and even then Lenin believed that workers's on their own would only develop a "trade-union consciousness" which leads them to collaboration with the ruling class. In Lenin's view workers could not develop revolutionary class consciousness by themselves. If Lenin believed in a pre determined revolutionary outcome he would have never develpped his theory of the vanguard party.

      The conditions man finds him/herself in has been pre determined and to a large extent their individual role in society is determined by that. There does not exist however a set script by which a person unknowingly (or knowingly) lives their lives. The dialectic is meant to be a tool by which one (or a class) can grasp and interpret material reality and the process of change. By means of this tool man begins to free her/himself from the "situation."

      Marx never developed a utopian idea of what life would look like after the "revolution" rather he applied his science of dialectics to the study of his surroundings which is why he wrote book called Capital and not a book called socialism.





      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Christopher Bobo
      Sent: 4/5/2002 2:22:46 AM
      To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: Re: [Sartre] Re: Marxism

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      > I always read marxism as fundamentally being about the relationship of societies to the means of production in the context of an unfolding dialectical materialism.� The individual in this context does not so much develop his or her own understanding and orientation to the world; rather, the individual assumes a certain pre-determined role by adopting a ready made class consciousness, the content of which is dictated by class vanguard (ruler class), the party.� Even here, the party cadres do not attempt to create in free form fashion their own particular ideology, rather, the apply a pre-determined ideology--say marxism-leninism--to a set of facts and try to read the right conclusions as a fortune teller might with tarot cards or tea leaves.� After all, what is at play in history is not individuals, per se, but historical material forces--thesis, antithesis and synthesis, in which the individual only plays out his or her pre-determined class role.� The bourgeois factory owner is the thesis and plays out his or her role as personified capital, extracting surplus value from labor like an inhuman vampiric force, while his antithesis, the worker suffers the alienation of his or labor.� Eventually, the laborer realizes his or her condition, and plays his or her historical role by developing revolutionary class consciousness and so enters into the praxis--under the leadership of the party--in which role he violently seizes control of the means of production from the blood-sucking capitalist, as was pre-ordained by the unfolding of the dialectic of historical materialism.� And so, as Marx conceived it, the proletarian revolution was/is inevitable because the various actors have no choice but to play out the roles that the dialectical has foreordained for them.�� <BR>
      > <BR>
      > Of course, all of this terribly mistaken, for it does not take into consideration the real freedom of individuals to ad lib.� The capitalist decides not to act like a vampire and the worker decides not be behave like a revolutionary or to follow the dictates of the class vanguard in the form of the party. Indeed, instead of becoming the liberator of the workers, the party becomes their oppressor.� And so, before the marxist quite knows what has happened, the metaphysical machinery of the dialectic of historical materialism has gone haywire and marxism finds itself on the ash heap of history.�� <BR>
      > <BR>
      > ----- Original Message -----<BR>
      > From: mathias@...<BR>
      > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 1:36 PM<BR>
      > To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com<BR>
      > Subject: Re: Re: [Sartre] Re: Marxism<BR>
      > <BR>
      > <BR>
      > Where in Marxist philosophy is man made "merely" a pawn. According to Marxist doctrine man makes history, albeit based upon specific historical conditions (or as Sartre would say "situations"). The individual freedom of man grows as man slowly begins to master the sciences which affect those historical conditions.<BR>
      > <BR>
      > Contrary to popular belief MArxism is Freedom<BR>
      > <BR>
      > <BR>
      > Mathias Bolton<BR>
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      > <BR>
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      > <BR>
      > <BR>
      > ----- Original Message -----<BR>
      > From: Christopher Bobo<BR>
      > Sent: 4/4/2002 3:50:17 PM<BR>
      > To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com<BR>
      > Subject: Re: [Sartre] Re: Marxism<BR>
      > <BR>
      > > <html><body><BR>
      > >� <BR>
      > >� <BR>
      > > <tt><BR>
      > > John said:<BR><BR>
      > > >>when I refer to a Marxist society not having humans's as a basis I'm� <BR><BR>
      > > refering to fundamental constant which guide human emotions<<<BR><BR>
      > > <BR><BR>
      > > Another way of saying this is that the fundamental notion of the marxist society is not one grounded on the free and autonomous individual.� Instead, the marxist society is based on a deterministic model of dialectical materialism and reason.�� <BR><BR>
      > > <BR><BR>
      > > It seems that if we are to accept existentialism as a personal philosophy of freedom, we must then reject marxism as a philosophy that deprives the individual of his or her freedom by making him or her a mere pawn in the unfolding of historical forces utterly beyond the control of the individual.� If existentialists are not free to manifest their freedom in� the social world, then the limits, or physical borders, of our freedom would be wholly circumscribed by the walls our own craniums.<BR><BR>
      > > <BR><BR>
      > > <BR><BR>
      > > <BR><BR>
      > > ----- Original Message -----<BR><BR>
      > > From: jj6lee@...<BR><BR>
      > > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 8:00 AM<BR><BR>
      > > To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com<BR><BR>
      > > Subject: Re: [Sartre] Re: Marxism<BR><BR>
      > > <BR><BR>
      > > Ideas are our creative expression of who we are and what we think we should be,� <BR><BR>
      > > however when I refer to a Marxist society not having humans's as a basis I'm� <BR><BR>
      > > refering to fundamental constant which guide human emotions [now don't jump on� <BR><BR>
      > > me, I know that I can not know what they are and I don't, however I believe a� <BR><BR>
      > > small sample from a familial situation may be used as a basis to form such� <BR><BR>
      > > general notions of emotions.]. What I mean by a fundamental constant is that� <BR><BR>
      > > deep inside, we hold the same paterns, and as we grow older and interact with� <BR><BR>
      > > others, those patern changes to give individuals, however this raw conscience� <BR><BR>
      > > is not the basis of a marxist society, rather the individual idea of a human,� <BR><BR>
      > > of an individual used to encompass a great number of people. Therefore when I� <BR><BR>
      > > refer to human I am refering to the general human population, and the ideas I'm� <BR><BR>
      > > refering to are the product of an individual. Granted several individuals have� <BR><BR>
      > > come to embrace such notions of a Utopia, however such attraction does not mean� <BR><BR>
      > > that marxism is based on human emotions, rather several individuals have� <BR><BR>
      > > embraced the thouhgts of other individuals. This in essence is any� <BR><BR>
      > > organization, any country, any group of individuals in this world, to attain a� <BR><BR>
      > > society based on human emotions, we must have a single consciousness; such� <BR><BR>
      > > cannot happen therefore a perfect society is an impossible task to acheive.� <BR><BR>
      > > <BR><BR>
      > > John<BR><BR>
      > > <BR><BR>
      > > > >...a marxist society is not a society<BR><BR>
      > > > > which has human's as a basis; ideas are the basis of marxism.<BR><BR>
      > > > ><BR><BR>
      > > > > John<BR><BR>
      > > >� <BR><BR>
      > > > Ideas are human accomplishments, expressions. What would make humans<BR><BR>
      > > > different from their own ideas?<BR><BR>
      > > >� <BR><BR>
      > > > john<BR><BR>
      > > <BR><BR>
      > > <BR><BR>
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR><BR>
      > > <BR><BR>
      > > </tt><BR>
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
      > <BR>
      > </tt>
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