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Re: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........

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  • heindrich müller
    In a diskussion of determinism vs. free will the definition of a free will is, as I see it, that of a contra-causal will - that is human beings ability to
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 4, 2002
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      In a diskussion of determinism vs. free will the definition of a free will
      is, as I see it, that of a 'contra-causal' will - that is human beings'
      ability to make an autonomous choice that does not have a cause other than
      itself! Other definitions of will are missing the point of the discussion.
      They can deny this definition of will saying it is a wrong definition but
      that dosn't solve the problem at issue. The problem of free will vs.
      determinism goes on and on....

      ....untill of course the free will becomes selfevident after a qiuck look in
      the mirror seeing yourself raising the hand - just because you want to.

      - Soeren E :O)


      >From: masha <masha@...>
      >Reply-To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
      >To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
      >Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:06:17 +0100
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >smbc1@... wrote:
      >
      > > Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in such a
      > > way which "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or
      > > definite type of latitude & this latitude most resolute!
      >
      >
      >hushdavid@... wrote:
      >
      > > I would love to hear a good argument against indeterminism.
      >
      >
      >I would like to hear the definition of will.
      >
      >Mr. Bones




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    • james tan
      of course, the question some can pose is: is our will really uncaused, even if it eludes our awareness of its cause (if indeed it eludes). we are afterall
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 4, 2002
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        of course, the question some can pose is: is our will really uncaused, even
        if it eludes our awareness of its cause (if indeed it eludes). we are
        afterall biological being, and how much do we understand of biology and its
        working on our system to be able to conclude that our will is 'really'
        uncaused? free will may ultimately be illusionary (not that it is). such
        question can never be answered, but a fact is, we live AS IF we are free
        being.

        james.


        From: "heindrich m�ller" <albatros444@...>
        Subject: Re: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
        Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:32:06 +0100



        In a diskussion of determinism vs. free will the definition of a free will
        is, as I see it, that of a 'contra-causal' will - that is human beings'
        ability to make an autonomous choice that does not have a cause other than
        itself! Other definitions of will are missing the point of the discussion.
        They can deny this definition of will saying it is a wrong definition but
        that dosn't solve the problem at issue. The problem of free will vs.
        determinism goes on and on....

        ....untill of course the free will becomes selfevident after a qiuck look in
        the mirror seeing yourself raising the hand - just because you want to.

        - Soeren E :O)


        >From: masha <masha@...>
        >>Subject: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
        >Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:06:17 +0100
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >smbc1@... wrote:
        >
        > > Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in such a
        > > way which "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or
        > > definite type of latitude & this latitude most resolute!
        >
        >
        >hushdavid@... wrote:
        >
        > > I would love to hear a good argument against indeterminism.
        >
        >
        >I would like to hear the definition of will.
        >
        >Mr. Bones




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      • landrywc
        Absolutely, James! It really does not matter if our will is free in any sort of ontological sense (and I agree we can never know this for certain) because,
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 4, 2002
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          Absolutely, James!
          It really does not matter if our will is 'free' in any sort of
          ontological sense (and I agree we can never know this for certain)
          because, no matter what, we live our lives as though we are free.
          Each of us has experienced that dread of having to 'choose', making a
          decision between possibilities. Whether or not these decisions mean
          anything in metaphysical reality does not change their meaning for
          us. Whether or not our will is uncaused is a question for metaphysics
          and religion, and everyone has an opinion on the subject. Although
          'silk' seems to dismiss free will because the possibilities APPEAR
          limited, I would argue that the possibilities are what define our
          freedom, even if they are indeed limited (and I thing good ol' Jean
          Paul would agree with me!)


          --- In Sartre@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
          >
          > of course, the question some can pose is: is our will really
          uncaused, even
          > if it eludes our awareness of its cause (if indeed it eludes). we
          are
          > afterall biological being, and how much do we understand of biology
          and its
          > working on our system to be able to conclude that our will is
          'really'
          > uncaused? free will may ultimately be illusionary (not that it is).
          such
          > question can never be answered, but a fact is, we live AS IF we are
          free
          > being.
          >
          > james.
          >
          >
          > From: "heindrich müller" <albatros444@h...>
          > Subject: Re: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
          > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:32:06 +0100
          >
          >
          >
          > In a diskussion of determinism vs. free will the definition of a
          free will
          > is, as I see it, that of a 'contra-causal' will - that is human
          beings'
          > ability to make an autonomous choice that does not have a cause
          other than
          > itself! Other definitions of will are missing the point of the
          discussion.
          > They can deny this definition of will saying it is a wrong
          definition but
          > that dosn't solve the problem at issue. The problem of free will vs.
          > determinism goes on and on....
          >
          > ....untill of course the free will becomes selfevident after a
          qiuck look in
          > the mirror seeing yourself raising the hand - just because you want
          to.
          >
          > - Soeren E :O)
          >
          >
          > >From: masha <masha@a...>
          > >>Subject: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
          > >Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:06:17 +0100
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >smbc1@w... wrote:
          > >
          > > > Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in such a
          > > > way which "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or
          > > > definite type of latitude & this latitude most resolute!
          > >
          > >
          > >hushdavid@c... wrote:
          > >
          > > > I would love to hear a good argument against indeterminism.
          > >
          > >
          > >I would like to hear the definition of will.
          > >
          > >Mr. Bones
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
          > http://www.hotmail.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Sartre homepage: http://www.Sartre.org.uk/
          >
          > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@e...
          >
          > <A
          > HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-
          search/?keyword=Jean-Paul+Sartre&tag=donaldrobertson">Click
          > here to purchase books by Jean-Paul Sartre -in association with
          Amazon
          > (US).</A>
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
          http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
        • binarydarkfall
          You guys are back to this again... I still believe free will comes in a box that is no better than determinism, even if you say well what about quantum
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 5, 2002
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            You guys are back to this again... I still believe free will comes in
            a box that is no better than determinism, even if you say well what
            about quantum physics, that just adds the random value to the whole
            things which makes it so unpredictable yet predictable if you knew
            everything.

            -phil

            --- In Sartre@y..., "landrywc" <landrywc@g...> wrote:
            > Absolutely, James!
            > It really does not matter if our will is 'free' in any sort of
            > ontological sense (and I agree we can never know this for certain)
            > because, no matter what, we live our lives as though we are free.
            > Each of us has experienced that dread of having to 'choose', making
            a
            > decision between possibilities. Whether or not these decisions mean
            > anything in metaphysical reality does not change their meaning for
            > us. Whether or not our will is uncaused is a question for
            metaphysics
            > and religion, and everyone has an opinion on the subject. Although
            > 'silk' seems to dismiss free will because the possibilities APPEAR
            > limited, I would argue that the possibilities are what define our
            > freedom, even if they are indeed limited (and I thing good ol' Jean
            > Paul would agree with me!)
            >
            >
            > --- In Sartre@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
            > >
            > > of course, the question some can pose is: is our will really
            > uncaused, even
            > > if it eludes our awareness of its cause (if indeed it eludes). we
            > are
            > > afterall biological being, and how much do we understand of
            biology
            > and its
            > > working on our system to be able to conclude that our will is
            > 'really'
            > > uncaused? free will may ultimately be illusionary (not that it
            is).
            > such
            > > question can never be answered, but a fact is, we live AS IF we
            are
            > free
            > > being.
            > >
            > > james.
            > >
            > >
            > > From: "heindrich müller" <albatros444@h...>
            > > Subject: Re: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
            > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:32:06 +0100
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > In a diskussion of determinism vs. free will the definition of a
            > free will
            > > is, as I see it, that of a 'contra-causal' will - that is human
            > beings'
            > > ability to make an autonomous choice that does not have a cause
            > other than
            > > itself! Other definitions of will are missing the point of the
            > discussion.
            > > They can deny this definition of will saying it is a wrong
            > definition but
            > > that dosn't solve the problem at issue. The problem of free will
            vs.
            > > determinism goes on and on....
            > >
            > > ....untill of course the free will becomes selfevident after a
            > qiuck look in
            > > the mirror seeing yourself raising the hand - just because you
            want
            > to.
            > >
            > > - Soeren E :O)
            > >
            > >
            > > >From: masha <masha@a...>
            > > >>Subject: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
            > > >Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:06:17 +0100
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >smbc1@w... wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in
            such a
            > > > > way which "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or
            > > > > definite type of latitude & this latitude most resolute!
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >hushdavid@c... wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > I would love to hear a good argument against indeterminism.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >I would like to hear the definition of will.
            > > >
            > > >Mr. Bones
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > _________________________________________________________________
            > > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
            > > http://www.hotmail.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Sartre homepage: http://www.Sartre.org.uk/
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@e...
            > >
            > > <A
            > > HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-
            > search/?keyword=Jean-Paul+Sartre&tag=donaldrobertson">Click
            > > here to purchase books by Jean-Paul Sartre -in association with
            > Amazon
            > > (US).</A>
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > _________________________________________________________________
            > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
            > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
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