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Free Will..........

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  • silk
    If man contintues to concentrate his search for the mind to that area between his ears he will, never find it. Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 1, 2002
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      If man contintues to concentrate his search for the mind to that area
      between his ears he will, never find it.

      Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in such a way which
      "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or definite type of latitude &
      this latitude most resolute! Sort of like a dog chained to a pole, it can
      roam around to some extent however its miniscule domain is specific & thus
      set! This scenario can but infer that while certain "set" options are
      possible others are not. It is this fixed "liberty" which many confuse with
      free will. I must contend that various alternatives & choices "might" be
      open if only certain ones. I believe there "might" be some latitude in a
      beings life & that being may be given, say, five choices & it's most
      "probable" that it's been predetermined which choice he will make but
      never-the-less he's given a choice, if you choose to call it that. Lets
      assume for the sake of argument that someone knows you better than you know
      yourself & that someone rounds up five members of the opposite sex, all
      relatively good looking & charming however different as day & night. I
      staunchly believe it can be ascertained beforehand, prior to your ever
      having layed eyes or ears upon them, which one, above the others, will
      capture your fancy! This once again is what is confused with free will. Free
      in a limited fashion as the possibilities are fixed & in certain situations
      one has a choice between two evils & must choose between the lesser of them
      but how does one know why or even what makes them choose what they do? They
      might choose to believe that they reasoned it out but then again why do they
      then reason the "only" one way that they do? Six of one, half a dozen of
      another & wolfs howl at the moon?

      chao/Silk
    • hushdavid@cs.com
      In a message dated 1/1/2002 10:30:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, smbc1@wxs.nl ... I would love to hear a good argument against indeterminism. thanks david Happy
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 1, 2002
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        In a message dated 1/1/2002 10:30:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, smbc1@...
        writes:


        > If man contintues to concentrate his search for the mind to that area
        > between his ears he will, never find it.
        >
        > Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in such a way which
        > "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or definite type of latitude &
        > this latitude most resolute! Sort of like a dog chained to a pole, it can
        > roam around to some extent however its miniscule domain is specific & thus
        > set! This scenario can but infer that while certain "set" options are
        > possible others are not. It is this fixed "liberty" which many confuse with
        > free will. I must contend that various alternatives & choices "might" be
        > open if only certain ones. I believe there "might" be some latitude in a
        > beings life & that being may be given, say, five choices & it's most
        > "probable" that it's been predetermined which choice he will make but
        > never-the-less he's given a choice, if you choose to call it that. Lets
        > assume for the sake of argument that someone knows you better than you know
        > yourself & that someone rounds up five members of the opposite sex, all
        > relatively good looking & charming however different as day & night. I
        > staunchly believe it can be ascertained beforehand, prior to your ever
        > having layed eyes or ears upon them, which one, above the others, will
        > capture your fancy! This once again is what is confused with free will. Free
        > in a limited fashion as the possibilities are fixed & in certain situations
        > one has a choice between two evils & must choose between the lesser of them
        > but how does one know why or even what makes them choose what they do? They
        > might choose to believe that they reasoned it out but then again why do they
        > then reason the "only" one way that they do? Six of one, half a dozen of
        > another & wolfs howl at the moon?
        >
        > chao/Silk
        >
        >

        I would love to hear a good argument against indeterminism.
        thanks
        david
        Happy New Year!


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • masha
        ... I would like to hear the definition of will. Mr. Bones
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 1, 2002
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          smbc1@... wrote:

          > Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in such a
          > way which "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or
          > definite type of latitude & this latitude most resolute!


          hushdavid@... wrote:

          > I would love to hear a good argument against indeterminism.


          I would like to hear the definition of will.

          Mr. Bones
        • heindrich müller
          In a diskussion of determinism vs. free will the definition of a free will is, as I see it, that of a contra-causal will - that is human beings ability to
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 4, 2002
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            In a diskussion of determinism vs. free will the definition of a free will
            is, as I see it, that of a 'contra-causal' will - that is human beings'
            ability to make an autonomous choice that does not have a cause other than
            itself! Other definitions of will are missing the point of the discussion.
            They can deny this definition of will saying it is a wrong definition but
            that dosn't solve the problem at issue. The problem of free will vs.
            determinism goes on and on....

            ....untill of course the free will becomes selfevident after a qiuck look in
            the mirror seeing yourself raising the hand - just because you want to.

            - Soeren E :O)


            >From: masha <masha@...>
            >Reply-To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
            >To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
            >Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:06:17 +0100
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >smbc1@... wrote:
            >
            > > Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in such a
            > > way which "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or
            > > definite type of latitude & this latitude most resolute!
            >
            >
            >hushdavid@... wrote:
            >
            > > I would love to hear a good argument against indeterminism.
            >
            >
            >I would like to hear the definition of will.
            >
            >Mr. Bones




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          • james tan
            of course, the question some can pose is: is our will really uncaused, even if it eludes our awareness of its cause (if indeed it eludes). we are afterall
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 4, 2002
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              of course, the question some can pose is: is our will really uncaused, even
              if it eludes our awareness of its cause (if indeed it eludes). we are
              afterall biological being, and how much do we understand of biology and its
              working on our system to be able to conclude that our will is 'really'
              uncaused? free will may ultimately be illusionary (not that it is). such
              question can never be answered, but a fact is, we live AS IF we are free
              being.

              james.


              From: "heindrich m�ller" <albatros444@...>
              Subject: Re: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
              Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:32:06 +0100



              In a diskussion of determinism vs. free will the definition of a free will
              is, as I see it, that of a 'contra-causal' will - that is human beings'
              ability to make an autonomous choice that does not have a cause other than
              itself! Other definitions of will are missing the point of the discussion.
              They can deny this definition of will saying it is a wrong definition but
              that dosn't solve the problem at issue. The problem of free will vs.
              determinism goes on and on....

              ....untill of course the free will becomes selfevident after a qiuck look in
              the mirror seeing yourself raising the hand - just because you want to.

              - Soeren E :O)


              >From: masha <masha@...>
              >>Subject: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
              >Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:06:17 +0100
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >smbc1@... wrote:
              >
              > > Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in such a
              > > way which "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or
              > > definite type of latitude & this latitude most resolute!
              >
              >
              >hushdavid@... wrote:
              >
              > > I would love to hear a good argument against indeterminism.
              >
              >
              >I would like to hear the definition of will.
              >
              >Mr. Bones




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            • landrywc
              Absolutely, James! It really does not matter if our will is free in any sort of ontological sense (and I agree we can never know this for certain) because,
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 4, 2002
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                Absolutely, James!
                It really does not matter if our will is 'free' in any sort of
                ontological sense (and I agree we can never know this for certain)
                because, no matter what, we live our lives as though we are free.
                Each of us has experienced that dread of having to 'choose', making a
                decision between possibilities. Whether or not these decisions mean
                anything in metaphysical reality does not change their meaning for
                us. Whether or not our will is uncaused is a question for metaphysics
                and religion, and everyone has an opinion on the subject. Although
                'silk' seems to dismiss free will because the possibilities APPEAR
                limited, I would argue that the possibilities are what define our
                freedom, even if they are indeed limited (and I thing good ol' Jean
                Paul would agree with me!)


                --- In Sartre@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
                >
                > of course, the question some can pose is: is our will really
                uncaused, even
                > if it eludes our awareness of its cause (if indeed it eludes). we
                are
                > afterall biological being, and how much do we understand of biology
                and its
                > working on our system to be able to conclude that our will is
                'really'
                > uncaused? free will may ultimately be illusionary (not that it is).
                such
                > question can never be answered, but a fact is, we live AS IF we are
                free
                > being.
                >
                > james.
                >
                >
                > From: "heindrich müller" <albatros444@h...>
                > Subject: Re: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
                > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:32:06 +0100
                >
                >
                >
                > In a diskussion of determinism vs. free will the definition of a
                free will
                > is, as I see it, that of a 'contra-causal' will - that is human
                beings'
                > ability to make an autonomous choice that does not have a cause
                other than
                > itself! Other definitions of will are missing the point of the
                discussion.
                > They can deny this definition of will saying it is a wrong
                definition but
                > that dosn't solve the problem at issue. The problem of free will vs.
                > determinism goes on and on....
                >
                > ....untill of course the free will becomes selfevident after a
                qiuck look in
                > the mirror seeing yourself raising the hand - just because you want
                to.
                >
                > - Soeren E :O)
                >
                >
                > >From: masha <masha@a...>
                > >>Subject: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
                > >Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:06:17 +0100
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >smbc1@w... wrote:
                > >
                > > > Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in such a
                > > > way which "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or
                > > > definite type of latitude & this latitude most resolute!
                > >
                > >
                > >hushdavid@c... wrote:
                > >
                > > > I would love to hear a good argument against indeterminism.
                > >
                > >
                > >I would like to hear the definition of will.
                > >
                > >Mr. Bones
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
                > http://www.hotmail.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Sartre homepage: http://www.Sartre.org.uk/
                >
                > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@e...
                >
                > <A
                > HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-
                search/?keyword=Jean-Paul+Sartre&tag=donaldrobertson">Click
                > here to purchase books by Jean-Paul Sartre -in association with
                Amazon
                > (US).</A>
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • binarydarkfall
                You guys are back to this again... I still believe free will comes in a box that is no better than determinism, even if you say well what about quantum
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 5, 2002
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                  You guys are back to this again... I still believe free will comes in
                  a box that is no better than determinism, even if you say well what
                  about quantum physics, that just adds the random value to the whole
                  things which makes it so unpredictable yet predictable if you knew
                  everything.

                  -phil

                  --- In Sartre@y..., "landrywc" <landrywc@g...> wrote:
                  > Absolutely, James!
                  > It really does not matter if our will is 'free' in any sort of
                  > ontological sense (and I agree we can never know this for certain)
                  > because, no matter what, we live our lives as though we are free.
                  > Each of us has experienced that dread of having to 'choose', making
                  a
                  > decision between possibilities. Whether or not these decisions mean
                  > anything in metaphysical reality does not change their meaning for
                  > us. Whether or not our will is uncaused is a question for
                  metaphysics
                  > and religion, and everyone has an opinion on the subject. Although
                  > 'silk' seems to dismiss free will because the possibilities APPEAR
                  > limited, I would argue that the possibilities are what define our
                  > freedom, even if they are indeed limited (and I thing good ol' Jean
                  > Paul would agree with me!)
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Sartre@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > of course, the question some can pose is: is our will really
                  > uncaused, even
                  > > if it eludes our awareness of its cause (if indeed it eludes). we
                  > are
                  > > afterall biological being, and how much do we understand of
                  biology
                  > and its
                  > > working on our system to be able to conclude that our will is
                  > 'really'
                  > > uncaused? free will may ultimately be illusionary (not that it
                  is).
                  > such
                  > > question can never be answered, but a fact is, we live AS IF we
                  are
                  > free
                  > > being.
                  > >
                  > > james.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From: "heindrich müller" <albatros444@h...>
                  > > Subject: Re: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
                  > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:32:06 +0100
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > In a diskussion of determinism vs. free will the definition of a
                  > free will
                  > > is, as I see it, that of a 'contra-causal' will - that is human
                  > beings'
                  > > ability to make an autonomous choice that does not have a cause
                  > other than
                  > > itself! Other definitions of will are missing the point of the
                  > discussion.
                  > > They can deny this definition of will saying it is a wrong
                  > definition but
                  > > that dosn't solve the problem at issue. The problem of free will
                  vs.
                  > > determinism goes on and on....
                  > >
                  > > ....untill of course the free will becomes selfevident after a
                  > qiuck look in
                  > > the mirror seeing yourself raising the hand - just because you
                  want
                  > to.
                  > >
                  > > - Soeren E :O)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >From: masha <masha@a...>
                  > > >>Subject: [Sartre] Re: Free Will..........
                  > > >Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:06:17 +0100
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >smbc1@w... wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > Free will: Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in
                  such a
                  > > > > way which "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or
                  > > > > definite type of latitude & this latitude most resolute!
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >hushdavid@c... wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > I would love to hear a good argument against indeterminism.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >I would like to hear the definition of will.
                  > > >
                  > > >Mr. Bones
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _________________________________________________________________
                  > > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
                  > > http://www.hotmail.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Sartre homepage: http://www.Sartre.org.uk/
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: Sartre-unsubscribe@e...
                  > >
                  > > <A
                  > > HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-
                  > search/?keyword=Jean-Paul+Sartre&tag=donaldrobertson">Click
                  > > here to purchase books by Jean-Paul Sartre -in association with
                  > Amazon
                  > > (US).</A>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _________________________________________________________________
                  > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                  > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
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