- Unruh effect isT(r) = hg(r)/ckBfor the black body photon temperature seen by the accelerating detector that is not seen by the unaccelerating detector.It may well be that the Hawking radiation never makes it to the far field.The only counter-evidence that it does is the Pioneer Anomaly.The basic rule for static LNIFs iscovariant acceleration = (Newton's g-acceleration)(gravity time dilation)For example in de Sitter (dS) space the CLASSICAL calculation isg(r) ~ c^2/\r(1 - /\r^2)^-1/2for the observer at r = 0note that g(0) = 0 which contradicts Hawking & Gibbons that it should be c^2/\^1/2this is for Unruh-Hawking radiation from the past dS horizon - of course we don't have on in our real universe.The only way to get their result is to put in their term ad-hoc as a zero point type of correction not seen in the classical calculation.Similarly for the simplest black holeg(r) ~ (c^2rs/r^2)(1 - rs/r)^-1/2with the observer at r ---> infinityagain g(infinity) = 0so we do not see the Unruh-Hawking radiation at infinity in the far field - unless we stick in the term ad-hoc again.On Feb 1, 2011, at 10:45 AM, JACK SARFATTI wrote:PS - the coordinates one uses don't matter in any physics theory obviously.The physics of local gauge invariance in GR is that1) the instantaneous relative velocity mapping between two un-accelerating inertial geodesic non-rotating coincident detectors measuring the same events is a redundant gauge transformation, i.e. Lorentz group SO1,3 LIF <--> LIF'2) the instantaneous mapping between two accelerating non-inertial off-geodesic, possibly rotating coincident detectors measuring the same event is a redundant gauge transformation, i.e., T4(x) LNIF <--> LNIF'so the above are 10 gauge transformations.3) the instantaneous map between a LIF and a coincident LNIF , i.e. tetrad mapping eI^u etc.On Feb 1, 2011, at 10:35 AM, JACK SARFATTI wrote:On Feb 1, 2011, at 2:26 AM, Paul Zielinski wrote:
Bottom line here is that even in the tetrad formalism frame invariance under LNIF' -> LNIF'' transformations means

covariance wrt general coordinate transformations. So frame invariance still presents itself as coordinate covariance

even in the tetrad formulation of the GTR. The (non-orthonormal) LNIF basis vectors change in lockstep with the

coordinates to which they are aligned.What difference does it make to the physics?What mathematical distinctions do you mean?Show the equations.If you can't show the equations then the above words have no importance.A local frame is basically a material detectorThe arbitrary coordinates one uses don't matter.The acceleration g-force does matter.the relative velocity between coincident detectors does matter.The invariants constructed in each frame for the same measured events by different coincident detectors are the objective reality of the theory.So this brings us back to my original question: Can the interaction between accelerating detectors and the physical

vacuum that supposedly produces Unruh radiation, or particle pair production in the Gibbons-Hawking model for cosmological

event horizons, be given a generally covariant formulation in the GTR?"*the reality of the membrane can not be an invariant which all observers agree upon."**"*An experiment of one kind will detect a quantum membrane, whilean experiment of another kind will not. However, no possibility exists for any observer toknow the results of both. Information involving the results of these two kinds of experimentsshould be viewed as*complementary*in the sense of Bohr."June 1993hep-th/9306069The Stretched Horizon and Black Hole ComplementarityLeonard Susskind, L´arus Thorlacius,† and John Uglum‡a “stretched horizon” or membrane description of the black hole, appropriate to a distant observerthe dissipative properties of the stretched horizon arise from a course graining of microphysical degrees of freedom that the horizon must possess. - Z sentIs there Unruh radiation?G. W. FordDepartment of Physics,University of Michigan,Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1120R. F. O’ConnellDepartment of Physics and Astronomy, Louisiana State University,Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70803-4001(Dated: February 1, 2008)"we consider the case of a point mass moving under a constant force (hyperbolicmotion). There we make use of the convenient parametric representation of the motionsometimes called Rindler coordinates [10]. We find that the zero-temperature correlation ofthe field evaluated at a space-time point moving along the hyperbolic path is identical withthe correlation evaluated at a point fixed in space, but with the field at the elevated Unruhtemperature.We find the net energy flux at any point in the field is identically zero, the result of a detailed balanceof a flux of field energy emitted by the oscillator and a flux of field energy supplied to theoscillator. This is entirely what one should expect, since the mean energy of the oscillatorin equilibrium is constant. The point of this exercise is seen in the next two sections, wherewe find the for an oscillator in hyperbolic motion through a zero temperature field the netflux vanishes in the same way and for the same reasons as for an oscillator at rest.we present our conclusion that, whereas one can speak of an Unruh temperature,there is no corresponding radiation to be detected. In thiscontext, we also analyze Unruh’s counterclaim [5] and argue that it is not valid."On Feb 1, 2011, at 12:18 PM, JACK SARFATTI wrote:Unruh effect isT(r) = hg(r)/ckBfor the black body photon temperature seen by the accelerating detector that is not seen by the unaccelerating detector.It may well be that the Hawking radiation never makes it to the far field.The only counter-evidence that it does is the Pioneer Anomaly.The basic rule for static LNIFs iscovariant acceleration = (Newton's g-acceleration)(gravity time dilation)For example in de Sitter (dS) space the CLASSICAL calculation isg(r) ~ c^2/\r(1 - /\r^2)^-1/2for the observer at r = 0note that g(0) = 0 which contradicts Hawking & Gibbons that it should be c^2/\^1/2this is for Unruh-Hawking radiation from the past dS horizon - of course we don't have on in our real universe.The only way to get their result is to put in their term ad-hoc as a zero point type of correction not seen in the classical calculation.Similarly for the simplest black holeg(r) ~ (c^2rs/r^2)(1 - rs/r)^-1/2with the observer at r ---> infinityagain g(infinity) = 0so we do not see the Unruh-Hawking radiation at infinity in the far field - unless we stick in the term ad-hoc again.On Feb 1, 2011, at 10:45 AM, JACK SARFATTI wrote:PS - the coordinates one uses don't matter in any physics theory obviously.The physics of local gauge invariance in GR is that1) the instantaneous relative velocity mapping between two un-accelerating inertial geodesic non-rotating coincident detectors measuring the same events is a redundant gauge transformation, i.e. Lorentz group SO1,3 LIF <--> LIF'2) the instantaneous mapping between two accelerating non-inertial off-geodesic, possibly rotating coincident detectors measuring the same event is a redundant gauge transformation, i.e., T4(x) LNIF <--> LNIF'so the above are 10 gauge transformations.3) the instantaneous map between a LIF and a coincident LNIF , i.e. tetrad mapping eI^u etc.On Feb 1, 2011, at 10:35 AM, JACK SARFATTI wrote:On Feb 1, 2011, at 2:26 AM, Paul Zielinski wrote:
Bottom line here is that even in the tetrad formalism frame invariance under LNIF' -> LNIF'' transformations means

covariance wrt general coordinate transformations. So frame invariance still presents itself as coordinate covariance

even in the tetrad formulation of the GTR. The (non-orthonormal) LNIF basis vectors change in lockstep with the

coordinates to which they are aligned.What difference does it make to the physics?What mathematical distinctions do you mean?Show the equations.If you can't show the equations then the above words have no importance.A local frame is basically a material detectorThe arbitrary coordinates one uses don't matter.The acceleration g-force does matter.the relative velocity between coincident detectors does matter.The invariants constructed in each frame for the same measured events by different coincident detectors are the objective reality of the theory.So this brings us back to my original question: Can the interaction between accelerating detectors and the physical

vacuum that supposedly produces Unruh radiation, or particle pair production in the Gibbons-Hawking model for cosmological

event horizons, be given a generally covariant formulation in the GTR?June 1993hep-th/9306069The Stretched Horizon and Black Hole ComplementarityLeonard Susskind, L´arus Thorlacius,† and John Uglum‡a “stretched horizon” or membrane description of the black hole, appropriate to a distant observerthe dissipative properties of the stretched horizon arise from a course graining of microphysical degrees of freedom that the horizon must possess.