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Re: Torsion weapons research in Ukraine & Russia?/ Relevance to 2008?

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  • Jack Sarfatti
    Latest from Bekkum. Gary find that Helms 1967 CIA document on this topic - lost it in my HD crash. Point is there is an official USG mil-intel paper trail on
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 1, 2008
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      Latest from Bekkum. Gary find that Helms 1967 CIA document on this
      topic - lost it in my HD crash.
      Point is there is an official USG mil-intel paper trail on all the
      "pseudoscience" - don't be too sure it's only that pride goeth before
      The Decline and Fall. America has never been so weak.
      http://prosites-prs.homestead.com/index.html
    • Andrew Beckwith
      The CIA investigated stuff you would not believe. Did you ever read the book The search for the Manchurian Candidate; the CIA and Mind control ? Primarily,
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 1, 2008
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        The CIA investigated stuff you would not believe. Did you ever read the book
        " The search for the Manchurian Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " ?
         
        Primarily, Jack, the Agency was tasked to investigate all available techniques into
        cracking the secrets allegedly behind the Soviet show trials, with defendants
        confessing to crimes which were held to be imaginary, and also not believable. The
        exibit A of this was Cardinal Minisky of Hungary who acted as though he had been
        put under some mind control technology.
         
        The other catalyst behind the Agency investigations was the datum that during the
        Korean war American POWs bought into the Chinese claims of 'germ warfare' and
        confessed to being accompances to such things, even going so far as to not
        recant in full such 'confessions' when repatriated to the United States.
         
        It scared the living hell out of a prior generation, Jack.
         
        You are confusing , and perhaps with the best of intentions, a war time commitment to
        explore and develop unheard of technologies under what people felt was an imminent
        catastrophe in the making with a well thought out R and D program in long term
        time lines.
         
        Jack, do yourself a favor and read that book. I have a copy of it, and I revisited it early
        this morning in January 1st, 2008.
         
        Jack, there is another thing. It was the JOB of the CIA to at least investigate claims
        of the paranormal. They would have been derelict in their duty NOT to.
         
        That does not mean that there are supra doopah mind control devices ready to be
        distributed to enslave CONUS.
         
        Get a freaking grip, Jack.
         
        I am writing an update as to research directions and the like from my Pune, India
        trip, and I cannot believe that you are re hashing this old vomit.
         
        You are not cleared to know what really was done with the remote viewing technology
        which incidently DID become useful in a restricted sense. Some of the techniques, albeit
        with major limitations have been used to good effect. But the physical explanation of
        this and many other things is surprisingly prosaic and not at all startling, once people
        know the details.
         
        None of this is gee whiz science.
         
        Why don't you give it a rest, Jack, and put things in PERSPECTIVE.
         
        I see you whipping ut up, getting excited and all lathered up , firing all cylinders, and
        missing what I said about the CIA investigations.
         
        1. The CIA had NO OTHER CHOICE but to make its investigations into the paranormal
        for the reason I stated above.
         
        2. No mass produced mind control devices exists to remotely turn individuals into
        'manchurian candidate' robotic assasins, or any of the horrors the CIA was OBLIGATED
        to at least investigate in the 1940s- 70s
         
        3. Remote Viewing, and other such allegedly fringe techniques have been, with sharp
        limitations on their use, emerged as solid but unspectacular additions to investigative
        techniques used by the military and CIA for national security cases and war time
        episodes. The physics of these techniques is not nearly as strange as what people
        think, and is not magical.
         
        Stop whipping it up, Jack. For CHRIST sake, go read that book " The Manchurian
        Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " and please stop dunning in paranoia plus
        interpretations of decades old events.
         
        I cannot believe it. It is 2008, and here we go again  beating a DEAD HORSE.

        Jack Sarfatti <sarfatti@...> wrote:


        Latest from Bekkum. Gary find that Helms 1967 CIA document on this
        topic - lost it in my HD crash.
        Point is there is an official USG mil-intel paper trail on all the
        "pseudoscience" - don't be too sure it's only that pride goeth before
        The Decline and Fall. America has never been so weak.
        http://prosites-prs.homestead.com/index.html

      • Tim Ventura
        Uhh... That s my understanding as well, although not as extensively as Andrew has described. The Korean war was supposed to be the really scary part, because
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 1, 2008
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          Uhh...
           
          That's my understanding as well, although not as extensively as Andrew has described. The Korean war was supposed to be the really scary part, because we had POW's confessing to all sorts of things that we'd never engaged in, and it sparked a lot of controversy & investigation that later led to stuff like the Manchurian Candidate.
           
          The thing is, you don't need psychic weapons for stuff like that: torture anybody enough, and in the right way, and you'll break their mind - self-preservation will align their ideals with your needs. Also, interestingly, although it's widely reported that you can't "hypnotize somebody to do something against their will", you can use hypnotic techniques over time to literally change their will & desires. A lot of those hypnotic techniques include sensory dep, drugs, sleep-dep, etc....stuff that comes into play during interrogations & torture.
           
          I would LOVE to be an interrogator at Guantanamo, because I think that I could get more and higher quality information than the waterboarding guys have ever been able to get. They're still using primitive interrogation techniques designed to scare people into giving up information (whether correct or not). While it may be expedient, it surely doesn't pay long-term dividends.
           
          Recent studies have demonstrated that human beliefs are highly flexible, and will almost always change to justify a person's actions. Likewise, a person's actions depend highly on their environment (the reason that we intuitively know not to shout in church or the library). So by building rappoire, and changing a person's environment, we can bring down the psychological barriers of defensiveness that keep suspects from actually interacting with us, and over time begin reconditioning them to work with us in a productive manner.
           
          Part of that requires finding commonalities: what would I have in common with a terrorist? What would you have in common with a terrorist? More than you might think. Nobody loves the federal government, we all believe that society should be governed by moral principles, and we all cherish family values. That's a pretty big starting place to build trust.
           
          Most terrorists are essentially uneducated peasants who follow what they're told are the teachings of Islam, and live in a world filled with fear and pain. Then we take the prisoner, and put them right back into that world, with more fear & pain. Is it any wonder that we have to use the dunk-tank to get them to give up information? Instead, why not change their environment, and give them a taste of what democracy really means, by helping them to connect emotionally with other people and move past the pain that defined their lives in the first place.
           
          Unfortunately, and quite frankly, the CIA wouldn't be up to this type of interrogation: they continue to hire Rock Hudson-type 4-year-degree kids straight out of military service, which are exactly the wrong type of people for the job. Their organization needs more moral relativists, and a lot fewer gung-ho all-American patriot types if it actually wants to interact with people in other cultures & countries.
           
          Tim


          From: Andrew Beckwith [mailto:projectbeckwith2@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:23 PM
          To: Jack Sarfatti; projectbeckwith2@...
          Cc: Gary S Bekkum; Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars; SarfattiScienceSeminars@YahooGroups. com; David Kaiser; Ronald Pandolfi; Kit Green; Mark Pilkington; Hal Puthoff; Gordon Novel; Tim Ventura; Paul Murad; Sharon Weinberger; Joe Firmage; Timothy Ferris; Ask Science Science; Brian Josephson; Filip Coppens; d14947; MPerel; COLIN BENNET; William Birnes; George Knapp; Amara D. Angelica; Howard Bloom; Waldyr A. Rodrigues Jr.; nick herbert; yuzhou@...; Henry Dakin; S-P Sirag; Alan Parker; Dan Smith; caryn anscomb; Gus Russo; Stephen Broadbent; ryguy@...; Jerry Pippin; earthfiles@...; Bob Sheaffer; stapp@...; George Weissman; John Petersen; Howard Fertman; redemp@...; creon.levit@...; rainman.hudson@...; tachyondavis@...; Robert Shaheen; leon lisbona
          Subject: Re: Torsion weapons research in Ukraine & Russia?/ Relevance to 2008?

          The CIA investigated stuff you would not believe. Did you ever read the book
          " The search for the Manchurian Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " ?
           
          Primarily, Jack, the Agency was tasked to investigate all available techniques into
          cracking the secrets allegedly behind the Soviet show trials, with defendants
          confessing to crimes which were held to be imaginary, and also not believable. The
          exibit A of this was Cardinal Minisky of Hungary who acted as though he had been
          put under some mind control technology.
           
          The other catalyst behind the Agency investigations was the datum that during the
          Korean war American POWs bought into the Chinese claims of 'germ warfare' and
          confessed to being accompances to such things, even going so far as to not
          recant in full such 'confessions' when repatriated to the United States.
           
          It scared the living hell out of a prior generation, Jack.
           
          You are confusing , and perhaps with the best of intentions, a war time commitment to
          explore and develop unheard of technologies under what people felt was an imminent
          catastrophe in the making with a well thought out R and D program in long term
          time lines.
           
          Jack, do yourself a favor and read that book. I have a copy of it, and I revisited it early
          this morning in January 1st, 2008.
           
          Jack, there is another thing. It was the JOB of the CIA to at least investigate claims
          of the paranormal. They would have been derelict in their duty NOT to.
           
          That does not mean that there are supra doopah mind control devices ready to be
          distributed to enslave CONUS.
           
          Get a freaking grip, Jack.
           
          I am writing an update as to research directions and the like from my Pune, India
          trip, and I cannot believe that you are re hashing this old vomit.
           
          You are not cleared to know what really was done with the remote viewing technology
          which incidently DID become useful in a restricted sense. Some of the techniques, albeit
          with major limitations have been used to good effect. But the physical explanation of
          this and many other things is surprisingly prosaic and not at all startling, once people
          know the details.
           
          None of this is gee whiz science.
           
          Why don't you give it a rest, Jack, and put things in PERSPECTIVE.
           
          I see you whipping ut up, getting excited and all lathered up , firing all cylinders, and
          missing what I said about the CIA investigations.
           
          1. The CIA had NO OTHER CHOICE but to make its investigations into the paranormal
          for the reason I stated above.
           
          2. No mass produced mind control devices exists to remotely turn individuals into
          'manchurian candidate' robotic assasins, or any of the horrors the CIA was OBLIGATED
          to at least investigate in the 1940s- 70s
           
          3. Remote Viewing, and other such allegedly fringe techniques have been, with sharp
          limitations on their use, emerged as solid but unspectacular additions to investigative
          techniques used by the military and CIA for national security cases and war time
          episodes. The physics of these techniques is not nearly as strange as what people
          think, and is not magical.
           
          Stop whipping it up, Jack. For CHRIST sake, go read that book " The Manchurian
          Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " and please stop dunning in paranoia plus
          interpretations of decades old events.
           
          I cannot believe it. It is 2008, and here we go again  beating a DEAD HORSE.

          Jack Sarfatti <sarfatti@...> wrote:


          Latest from Bekkum. Gary find that Helms 1967 CIA document on this
          topic - lost it in my HD crash.
          Point is there is an official USG mil-intel paper trail on all the
          "pseudoscience" - don't be too sure it's only that pride goeth before
          The Decline and Fall. America has never been so weak.
          http://prosites-prs.homestead.com/index.html

        • COLIN BENNET
          Thank you Andrew for these intriguing thoughts. There is one correction. Ref Cardinal Minisky. His real name was Mindszenty, see
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 1, 2008
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            Thank you Andrew for these intriguing thoughts. There is one correction. Ref "Cardinal Minisky." His real name was Mindszenty, see http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDmindszenty.htm
            Yes The Search for the Manchurian Candidate is a brilliant book, somewhat neglected. With regard to the structural technique  of the psychology of Soviet brain-washing interrogation as this time, John Marks'  book should be read with three others:
            Arrival and Departure and Darkness at Noon by Arthur Koestler, and The Mind Manipulators by  by Scheflin and Opton, a few copies of which are still available on Amazon.
            Colin Bennett
            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Andrew Beckwith <projectbeckwith2@...>
            To: Jack Sarfatti <sarfatti@...>; projectbeckwith2@...
            Cc: Gary S Bekkum <garybekkum@...>; Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars <Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars@yahoogroups.com>; "SarfattiScienceSeminars@YahooGroups. com" <SarfattiScienceSeminars@yahoogroups.com>; David Kaiser <dikaiser@...>; Ronald Pandolfi <rspandolfi@...>; Kit Green <cgreen@...>; Mark Pilkington <mark.pilkington@...>; Hal Puthoff <Puthoff@...>; Gordon Novel <g.novel@...>; Tim Ventura <tventura6@...>; Paul Murad <ufoguypaul@...>; Sharon Weinberger <sharonweinberger@...>; Joe Firmage <joe@...>; Timothy Ferris <tf@...>; Ask Science Science <askscience@...>; Brian Josephson <bdj10@...>; Filip Coppens <filip.coppens@...>; d14947 <d14947@...>; MPerel <mperel@...>; COLIN BENNET <sharkley1@...>; William Birnes <wjb1944@...>; George Knapp <gknapp@...>; Amara D. Angelica <amara@...>; Howard Bloom <HowlBloom@...>; Waldyr A. Rodrigues Jr. <walrod@...>; nick herbert <quanta@...>; yuzhou@...; Henry Dakin <hsd@...>; S-P Sirag <sirag@...>; Alan Parker <cmdrparker@...>; Dan Smith <dantsmith@...>; caryn anscomb <nyracum@...>; Gus Russo <grguitar@...>; Stephen Broadbent <sbroadbent@...>; ryguy@...; Jerry Pippin <jerrypippin@...>; earthfiles@...; Bob Sheaffer <roberto@...>; stapp@...; George Weissman <georgeweis@...>; John Petersen <johnp@...>; Howard Fertman <hfertman@...>; redemp@...; creon.levit@...; rainman.hudson@...; tachyondavis@...; Robert Shaheen <ras7945@...>; leon lisbona <llisbona@...>
            Sent: Tuesday, 1 January, 2008 8:22:42 PM
            Subject: Re: Torsion weapons research in Ukraine & Russia?/ Relevance to 2008?

            The CIA investigated stuff you would not believe. Did you ever read the book
            " The search for the Manchurian Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " ?
             
            Primarily, Jack, the Agency was tasked to investigate all available techniques into
            cracking the secrets allegedly behind the Soviet show trials, with defendants
            confessing to crimes which were held to be imaginary, and also not believable. The
            exibit A of this was Cardinal Minisky of Hungary who acted as though he had been
            put under some mind control technology.
             
            The other catalyst behind the Agency investigations was the datum that during the
            Korean war American POWs bought into the Chinese claims of 'germ warfare' and
            confessed to being accompances to such things, even going so far as to not
            recant in full such 'confessions' when repatriated to the United States.
             
            It scared the living hell out of a prior generation, Jack.
             
            You are confusing , and perhaps with the best of intentions, a war time commitment to
            explore and develop unheard of technologies under what people felt was an imminent
            catastrophe in the making with a well thought out R and D program in long term
            time lines.
             
            Jack, do yourself a favor and read that book. I have a copy of it, and I revisited it early
            this morning in January 1st, 2008.
             
            Jack, there is another thing. It was the JOB of the CIA to at least investigate claims
            of the paranormal. They would have been derelict in their duty NOT to.
             
            That does not mean that there are supra doopah mind control devices ready to be
            distributed to enslave CONUS.
             
            Get a freaking grip, Jack.
             
            I am writing an update as to research directions and the like from my Pune, India
            trip, and I cannot believe that you are re hashing this old vomit.
             
            You are not cleared to know what really was done with the remote viewing technology
            which incidently DID become useful in a restricted sense. Some of the techniques, albeit
            with major limitations have been used to good effect. But the physical explanation of
            this and many other things is surprisingly prosaic and not at all startling, once people
            know the details.
             
            None of this is gee whiz science.
             
            Why don't you give it a rest, Jack, and put things in PERSPECTIVE.
             
            I see you whipping ut up, getting excited and all lathered up , firing all cylinders, and
            missing what I said about the CIA investigations.
             
            1. The CIA had NO OTHER CHOICE but to make its investigations into the paranormal
            for the reason I stated above.
             
            2. No mass produced mind control devices exists to remotely turn individuals into
            'manchurian candidate' robotic assasins, or any of the horrors the CIA was OBLIGATED
            to at least investigate in the 1940s- 70s
             
            3. Remote Viewing, and other such allegedly fringe techniques have been, with sharp
            limitations on their use, emerged as solid but unspectacular additions to investigative
            techniques used by the military and CIA for national security cases and war time
            episodes. The physics of these techniques is not nearly as strange as what people
            think, and is not magical.
             
            Stop whipping it up, Jack. For CHRIST sake, go read that book " The Manchurian
            Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " and please stop dunning in paranoia plus
            interpretations of decades old events.
             
            I cannot believe it. It is 2008, and here we go again  beating a DEAD HORSE.

            Jack Sarfatti <sarfatti@...> wrote:


            Latest from Bekkum. Gary find that Helms 1967 CIA document on this
            topic - lost it in my HD crash.
            Point is there is an official USG mil-intel paper trail on all the
            "pseudoscience" - don't be too sure it's only that pride goeth before
            The Decline and Fall. America has never been so weak.
            http://prosites-prs.homestead.com/index.html


          • d14947
            Of course, Jack is correct, the threat is real and the capabilities are not prosaic at all, in fact they are quite astounding.
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 1, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Of course, Jack is correct, the threat is real and the capabilities are not prosaic at all, in fact they are quite astounding.

              On Jan 1, 2008 6:01 PM, COLIN BENNET < sharkley1@...> wrote:

              Thank you Andrew for these intriguing thoughts. There is one correction. Ref "Cardinal Minisky." His real name was Mindszenty, see http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDmindszenty.htm
              Yes The Search for the Manchurian Candidate is a brilliant book, somewhat neglected. With regard to the structural technique  of the psychology of Soviet brain-washing interrogation as this time, John Marks'  book should be read with three others:
              Arrival and Departure and Darkness at Noon by Arthur Koestler, and The Mind Manipulators by  by Scheflin and Opton, a few copies of which are still available on Amazon.
              Colin Bennett
              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Andrew Beckwith <projectbeckwith2@...>
              To: Jack Sarfatti < sarfatti@...>; projectbeckwith2@...
              Cc: Gary S Bekkum < garybekkum@...>; Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars <Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars@yahoogroups.com>; "SarfattiScienceSeminars@YahooGroups . com" <SarfattiScienceSeminars@yahoogroups.com>; David Kaiser <dikaiser@... >; Ronald Pandolfi <rspandolfi@...>; Kit Green <cgreen@...>; Mark Pilkington < mark.pilkington@...>; Hal Puthoff <Puthoff@...>; Gordon Novel < g.novel@...>; Tim Ventura <tventura6@...>; Paul Murad <ufoguypaul@... >; Sharon Weinberger <sharonweinberger@...>; Joe Firmage <joe@...>; Timothy Ferris < tf@...>; Ask Science Science <askscience@...>; Brian Josephson <bdj10@...>; Filip Coppens <filip.coppens@...>; d14947 < d14947@...>; MPerel <mperel@...>; COLIN BENNET <sharkley1@...>; William Birnes < wjb1944@...>; George Knapp <gknapp@...>; Amara D. Angelica < amara@...>; Howard Bloom <HowlBloom@...>; Waldyr A. Rodrigues Jr. <walrod@...>; nick herbert < quanta@...>; yuzhou@...; Henry Dakin <hsd@... >; S-P Sirag <sirag@...>; Alan Parker <cmdrparker@...>; Dan Smith < dantsmith@...>; caryn anscomb <nyracum@...>; Gus Russo < grguitar@...>; Stephen Broadbent <sbroadbent@...>; ryguy@... ; Jerry Pippin <jerrypippin@...>; earthfiles@...; Bob Sheaffer < roberto@...>; stapp@...; George Weissman <georgeweis@...>; John Petersen <johnp@...>; Howard Fertman < hfertman@...>; redemp@...; creon.levit@... ; rainman.hudson@...; tachyondavis@...; Robert Shaheen < ras7945@...>; leon lisbona <llisbona@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, 1 January, 2008 8:22:42 PM
              Subject: Re: Torsion weapons research in Ukraine & Russia?/ Relevance to 2008?

              The CIA investigated stuff you would not believe. Did you ever read the book
              " The search for the Manchurian Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " ?
               
              Primarily, Jack, the Agency was tasked to investigate all available techniques into
              cracking the secrets allegedly behind the Soviet show trials, with defendants
              confessing to crimes which were held to be imaginary, and also not believable. The
              exibit A of this was Cardinal Minisky of Hungary who acted as though he had been
              put under some mind control technology.
               
              The other catalyst behind the Agency investigations was the datum that during the
              Korean war American POWs bought into the Chinese claims of 'germ warfare' and
              confessed to being accompances to such things, even going so far as to not
              recant in full such 'confessions' when repatriated to the United States.
               
              It scared the living hell out of a prior generation, Jack.
               
              You are confusing , and perhaps with the best of intentions, a war time commitment to
              explore and develop unheard of technologies under what people felt was an imminent
              catastrophe in the making with a well thought out R and D program in long term
              time lines.
               
              Jack, do yourself a favor and read that book. I have a copy of it, and I revisited it early
              this morning in January 1st, 2008.
               
              Jack, there is another thing. It was the JOB of the CIA to at least investigate claims
              of the paranormal. They would have been derelict in their duty NOT to.
               
              That does not mean that there are supra doopah mind control devices ready to be
              distributed to enslave CONUS.
               
              Get a freaking grip, Jack.
               
              I am writing an update as to research directions and the like from my Pune, India
              trip, and I cannot believe that you are re hashing this old vomit.
               
              You are not cleared to know what really was done with the remote viewing technology
              which incidently DID become useful in a restricted sense. Some of the techniques, albeit
              with major limitations have been used to good effect. But the physical explanation of
              this and many other things is surprisingly prosaic and not at all startling, once people
              know the details.
               
              None of this is gee whiz science.
               
              Why don't you give it a rest, Jack, and put things in PERSPECTIVE.
               
              I see you whipping ut up, getting excited and all lathered up , firing all cylinders, and
              missing what I said about the CIA investigations.
               
              1. The CIA had NO OTHER CHOICE but to make its investigations into the paranormal
              for the reason I stated above.
               
              2. No mass produced mind control devices exists to remotely turn individuals into
              'manchurian candidate' robotic assasins, or any of the horrors the CIA was OBLIGATED
              to at least investigate in the 1940s- 70s
               
              3. Remote Viewing, and other such allegedly fringe techniques have been, with sharp
              limitations on their use, emerged as solid but unspectacular additions to investigative
              techniques used by the military and CIA for national security cases and war time
              episodes. The physics of these techniques is not nearly as strange as what people
              think, and is not magical.
               
              Stop whipping it up, Jack. For CHRIST sake, go read that book " The Manchurian
              Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " and please stop dunning in paranoia plus
              interpretations of decades old events.
               
              I cannot believe it. It is 2008, and here we go again  beating a DEAD HORSE.


              Jack Sarfatti < sarfatti@...> wrote:


              Latest from Bekkum. Gary find that Helms 1967 CIA document on this
              topic - lost it in my HD crash.
              Point is there is an official USG mil-intel paper trail on all the
              "pseudoscience" - don't be too sure it's only that pride goeth before
              The Decline and Fall. America has never been so weak.
              http://prosites-prs.homestead.com/index.html



            • Andrew Beckwith
              Bullshit. The problems exist, but we have our own R and D. This is turning into a very exaggerated conversation. Once again, this country has lots of
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 1, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Bullshit. The problems exist, but we have our own R and D.
                 
                This is turning into a very exaggerated conversation.
                 
                Once again, this country has lots of vulnerabilities, but not the ones you think, and
                in addition, we need to avoid good money into bad projects. We are also vulnerable
                in ways which I think you guys are not aware of.
                 
                What was an order of magnitude more dangerous was the known datum of sleeper
                agents, and the like placed in this country. I.e. people willing to commence active
                sabotage if war broke out between the United States and Russia.
                 
                Going back as early as the Korean war, Soviet agents were willing to activate nets
                of people targeting the  movement of war supplies from CONUS into Korea.
                 
                Same problem during Vietnam. It is Gods grace that conditions never came close
                to war time where sabotage on a large scale would have been used for strategic
                purposes.
                 
                I do not know what the current state of affairs is, but our refineries and the like could
                be hit very hard in active war time conditions. Russian plans to do just that in case of
                a fight between NATO and the WARSAW pact from the 1960s to 1980s were well
                advanced, and could have created significant headaches. Not to mention vulnerabilities
                in our civilian power grid.
                 
                The problem is that the other side is EQUALLY vulnerable, or even more so.
                 
                The one thing you guys fail to take into account is that even today Russia has extremely
                centralized communications, command and control systems. Both sides have glaring
                vulnerabilities.
                 
                It is not necessarily to our advantage that the other side is vulnerable. One gets into the
                'use it or lose it' syndrome, with all of the unpleasant side effects that could create.
                 
                But to imply that this country is defenseless is laughable.
                 
                If I were you, I would worry a lot more about China, and what it could do to this
                country strategically in the next ten years, than spin yarns on this stuff.


                d14947 <d14947@...> wrote:
                Of course, Jack is correct, the threat is real and the capabilities are not prosaic at all, in fact they are quite astounding.

                On Jan 1, 2008 6:01 PM, COLIN BENNET < sharkley1@...> wrote:

                Thank you Andrew for these intriguing thoughts. There is one correction. Ref "Cardinal Minisky." His real name was Mindszenty, see http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDmindszenty.htm
                Yes The Search for the Manchurian Candidate is a brilliant book, somewhat neglected. With regard to the structural technique  of the psychology of Soviet brain-washing interrogation as this time, John Marks'  book should be read with three others:
                Arrival and Departure and Darkness at Noon by Arthur Koestler, and The Mind Manipulators by  by Scheflin and Opton, a few copies of which are still available on Amazon.
                Colin Bennett
                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Andrew Beckwith <projectbeckwith2@...>
                To: Jack Sarfatti < sarfatti@...>; projectbeckwith2@...
                Cc: Gary S Bekkum < garybekkum@...>; Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars <Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars@yahoogroups.com>; "SarfattiScienceSeminars@YahooGroups . com" <SarfattiScienceSeminars@yahoogroups.com>; David Kaiser <dikaiser@... >; Ronald Pandolfi <rspandolfi@...>; Kit Green <cgreen@...>; Mark Pilkington < mark.pilkington@...>; Hal Puthoff <Puthoff@...>; Gordon Novel < g.novel@...>; Tim Ventura <tventura6@...>; Paul Murad <ufoguypaul@... >; Sharon Weinberger <sharonweinberger@...>; Joe Firmage <joe@...>; Timothy Ferris < tf@...>; Ask Science Science <askscience@...>; Brian Josephson <bdj10@...>; Filip Coppens <filip.coppens@...>; d14947 < d14947@...>; MPerel <mperel@...>; COLIN BENNET <sharkley1@...>; William Birnes < wjb1944@...>; George Knapp <gknapp@...>; Amara D. Angelica < amara@...>; Howard Bloom <HowlBloom@...>; Waldyr A. Rodrigues Jr. <walrod@...>; nick herbert < quanta@...>; yuzhou@...; Henry Dakin <hsd@... >; S-P Sirag <sirag@...>; Alan Parker <cmdrparker@...>; Dan Smith < dantsmith@...>; caryn anscomb <nyracum@...>; Gus Russo < grguitar@...>; Stephen Broadbent <sbroadbent@...>; ryguy@... ; Jerry Pippin <jerrypippin@...>; earthfiles@...; Bob Sheaffer < roberto@...>; stapp@...; George Weissman <georgeweis@...>; John Petersen <johnp@...>; Howard Fertman < hfertman@...>; redemp@...; creon.levit@... ; rainman.hudson@...; tachyondavis@...; Robert Shaheen < ras7945@...>; leon lisbona <llisbona@...>
                Sent: Tuesday, 1 January, 2008 8:22:42 PM
                Subject: Re: Torsion weapons research in Ukraine & Russia?/ Relevance to 2008?

                The CIA investigated stuff you would not believe. Did you ever read the book
                " The search for the Manchurian Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " ?
                 
                Primarily, Jack, the Agency was tasked to investigate all available techniques into
                cracking the secrets allegedly behind the Soviet show trials, with defendants
                confessing to crimes which were held to be imaginary, and also not believable. The
                exibit A of this was Cardinal Minisky of Hungary who acted as though he had been
                put under some mind control technology.
                 
                The other catalyst behind the Agency investigations was the datum that during the
                Korean war American POWs bought into the Chinese claims of 'germ warfare' and
                confessed to being accompances to such things, even going so far as to not
                recant in full such 'confessions' when repatriated to the United States.
                 
                It scared the living hell out of a prior generation, Jack.
                 
                You are confusing , and perhaps with the best of intentions, a war time commitment to
                explore and develop unheard of technologies under what people felt was an imminent
                catastrophe in the making with a well thought out R and D program in long term
                time lines.
                 
                Jack, do yourself a favor and read that book. I have a copy of it, and I revisited it early
                this morning in January 1st, 2008.
                 
                Jack, there is another thing. It was the JOB of the CIA to at least investigate claims
                of the paranormal. They would have been derelict in their duty NOT to.
                 
                That does not mean that there are supra doopah mind control devices ready to be
                distributed to enslave CONUS.
                 
                Get a freaking grip, Jack.
                 
                I am writing an update as to research directions and the like from my Pune, India
                trip, and I cannot believe that you are re hashing this old vomit.
                 
                You are not cleared to know what really was done with the remote viewing technology
                which incidently DID become useful in a restricted sense. Some of the techniques, albeit
                with major limitations have been used to good effect. But the physical explanation of
                this and many other things is surprisingly prosaic and not at all startling, once people
                know the details.
                 
                None of this is gee whiz science.
                 
                Why don't you give it a rest, Jack, and put things in PERSPECTIVE.
                 
                I see you whipping ut up, getting excited and all lathered up , firing all cylinders, and
                missing what I said about the CIA investigations.
                 
                1. The CIA had NO OTHER CHOICE but to make its investigations into the paranormal
                for the reason I stated above.
                 
                2. No mass produced mind control devices exists to remotely turn individuals into
                'manchurian candidate' robotic assasins, or any of the horrors the CIA was OBLIGATED
                to at least investigate in the 1940s- 70s
                 
                3. Remote Viewing, and other such allegedly fringe techniques have been, with sharp
                limitations on their use, emerged as solid but unspectacular additions to investigative
                techniques used by the military and CIA for national security cases and war time
                episodes. The physics of these techniques is not nearly as strange as what people
                think, and is not magical.
                 
                Stop whipping it up, Jack. For CHRIST sake, go read that book " The Manchurian
                Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " and please stop dunning in paranoia plus
                interpretations of decades old events.
                 
                I cannot believe it. It is 2008, and here we go again  beating a DEAD HORSE.


                Jack Sarfatti < sarfatti@...> wrote:


                Latest from Bekkum. Gary find that Helms 1967 CIA document on this
                topic - lost it in my HD crash.
                Point is there is an official USG mil-intel paper trail on all the
                "pseudoscience" - don't be too sure it's only that pride goeth before
                The Decline and Fall. America has never been so weak.
                http://prosites-prs.homestead.com/index.html




              • d14947
                When you wake up, it will be too late.
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 1, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  When you wake up, it will be too late.

                  On Jan 1, 2008 6:45 PM, Andrew Beckwith <projectbeckwith2@...> wrote:
                  Bullshit. The problems exist, but we have our own R and D.
                   
                  This is turning into a very exaggerated conversation.
                   
                  Once again, this country has lots of vulnerabilities, but not the ones you think, and
                  in addition, we need to avoid good money into bad projects. We are also vulnerable
                  in ways which I think you guys are not aware of.
                   
                  What was an order of magnitude more dangerous was the known datum of sleeper
                  agents, and the like placed in this country. I.e. people willing to commence active
                  sabotage if war broke out between the United States and Russia.
                   
                  Going back as early as the Korean war, Soviet agents were willing to activate nets
                  of people targeting the  movement of war supplies from CONUS into Korea.
                   
                  Same problem during Vietnam. It is Gods grace that conditions never came close
                  to war time where sabotage on a large scale would have been used for strategic
                  purposes.
                   
                  I do not know what the current state of affairs is, but our refineries and the like could
                  be hit very hard in active war time conditions. Russian plans to do just that in case of
                  a fight between NATO and the WARSAW pact from the 1960s to 1980s were well
                  advanced, and could have created significant headaches. Not to mention vulnerabilities
                  in our civilian power grid.
                   
                  The problem is that the other side is EQUALLY vulnerable, or even more so.
                   
                  The one thing you guys fail to take into account is that even today Russia has extremely
                  centralized communications, command and control systems. Both sides have glaring
                  vulnerabilities.
                   
                  It is not necessarily to our advantage that the other side is vulnerable. One gets into the
                  'use it or lose it' syndrome, with all of the unpleasant side effects that could create.
                   
                  But to imply that this country is defenseless is laughable.
                   
                  If I were you, I would worry a lot more about China, and what it could do to this
                  country strategically in the next ten years, than spin yarns on this stuff.


                  d14947 <d14947@...> wrote:
                  Of course, Jack is correct, the threat is real and the capabilities are not prosaic at all, in fact they are quite astounding.

                  On Jan 1, 2008 6:01 PM, COLIN BENNET <sharkley1@...> wrote:

                  Thank you Andrew for these intriguing thoughts. There is one correction. Ref "Cardinal Minisky." His real name was Mindszenty, see http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDmindszenty.htm
                  Yes The Search for the Manchurian Candidate is a brilliant book, somewhat neglected. With regard to the structural technique  of the psychology of Soviet brain-washing interrogation as this time, John Marks'  book should be read with three others:
                  Arrival and Departure and Darkness at Noon by Arthur Koestler, and The Mind Manipulators by  by Scheflin and Opton, a few copies of which are still available on Amazon.
                  Colin Bennett
                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Andrew Beckwith <projectbeckwith2@... >
                  To: Jack Sarfatti < sarfatti@...>; projectbeckwith2@...
                  Cc: Gary S Bekkum < garybekkum@...>; Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars <Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars@yahoogroups.com >; "SarfattiScienceSeminars@YahooGroups . com" <SarfattiScienceSeminars@yahoogroups.com>; David Kaiser < dikaiser@... >; Ronald Pandolfi <rspandolfi@...>; Kit Green <cgreen@...>; Mark Pilkington < mark.pilkington@...>; Hal Puthoff <Puthoff@...>; Gordon Novel < g.novel@...>; Tim Ventura <tventura6@...>; Paul Murad <ufoguypaul@... >; Sharon Weinberger <sharonweinberger@...>; Joe Firmage <joe@...>; Timothy Ferris < tf@...>; Ask Science Science <askscience@...>; Brian Josephson < bdj10@...>; Filip Coppens <filip.coppens@...>; d14947 < d14947@... >; MPerel <mperel@...>; COLIN BENNET <sharkley1@...>; William Birnes < wjb1944@...>; George Knapp <gknapp@...>; Amara D. Angelica < amara@...>; Howard Bloom <HowlBloom@...>; Waldyr A. Rodrigues Jr. <walrod@... >; nick herbert < quanta@...>; yuzhou@...; Henry Dakin < hsd@... >; S-P Sirag <sirag@...>; Alan Parker <cmdrparker@...>; Dan Smith < dantsmith@...>; caryn anscomb <nyracum@...>; Gus Russo < grguitar@...>; Stephen Broadbent <sbroadbent@...>; ryguy@... ; Jerry Pippin <jerrypippin@...>; earthfiles@...; Bob Sheaffer < roberto@...>; stapp@...; George Weissman < georgeweis@...>; John Petersen <johnp@...>; Howard Fertman < hfertman@... >; redemp@...; creon.levit@... ; rainman.hudson@...; tachyondavis@...; Robert Shaheen < ras7945@...>; leon lisbona < llisbona@...>
                  Sent: Tuesday, 1 January, 2008 8:22:42 PM
                  Subject: Re: Torsion weapons research in Ukraine & Russia?/ Relevance to 2008?

                  The CIA investigated stuff you would not believe. Did you ever read the book
                  " The search for the Manchurian Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " ?
                   
                  Primarily, Jack, the Agency was tasked to investigate all available techniques into
                  cracking the secrets allegedly behind the Soviet show trials, with defendants
                  confessing to crimes which were held to be imaginary, and also not believable. The
                  exibit A of this was Cardinal Minisky of Hungary who acted as though he had been
                  put under some mind control technology.
                   
                  The other catalyst behind the Agency investigations was the datum that during the
                  Korean war American POWs bought into the Chinese claims of 'germ warfare' and
                  confessed to being accompances to such things, even going so far as to not
                  recant in full such 'confessions' when repatriated to the United States.
                   
                  It scared the living hell out of a prior generation, Jack.
                   
                  You are confusing , and perhaps with the best of intentions, a war time commitment to
                  explore and develop unheard of technologies under what people felt was an imminent
                  catastrophe in the making with a well thought out R and D program in long term
                  time lines.
                   
                  Jack, do yourself a favor and read that book. I have a copy of it, and I revisited it early
                  this morning in January 1st, 2008.
                   
                  Jack, there is another thing. It was the JOB of the CIA to at least investigate claims
                  of the paranormal. They would have been derelict in their duty NOT to.
                   
                  That does not mean that there are supra doopah mind control devices ready to be
                  distributed to enslave CONUS.
                   
                  Get a freaking grip, Jack.
                   
                  I am writing an update as to research directions and the like from my Pune, India
                  trip, and I cannot believe that you are re hashing this old vomit.
                   
                  You are not cleared to know what really was done with the remote viewing technology
                  which incidently DID become useful in a restricted sense. Some of the techniques, albeit
                  with major limitations have been used to good effect. But the physical explanation of
                  this and many other things is surprisingly prosaic and not at all startling, once people
                  know the details.
                   
                  None of this is gee whiz science.
                   
                  Why don't you give it a rest, Jack, and put things in PERSPECTIVE.
                   
                  I see you whipping ut up, getting excited and all lathered up , firing all cylinders, and
                  missing what I said about the CIA investigations.
                   
                  1. The CIA had NO OTHER CHOICE but to make its investigations into the paranormal
                  for the reason I stated above.
                   
                  2. No mass produced mind control devices exists to remotely turn individuals into
                  'manchurian candidate' robotic assasins, or any of the horrors the CIA was OBLIGATED
                  to at least investigate in the 1940s- 70s
                   
                  3. Remote Viewing, and other such allegedly fringe techniques have been, with sharp
                  limitations on their use, emerged as solid but unspectacular additions to investigative
                  techniques used by the military and CIA for national security cases and war time
                  episodes. The physics of these techniques is not nearly as strange as what people
                  think, and is not magical.
                   
                  Stop whipping it up, Jack. For CHRIST sake, go read that book " The Manchurian
                  Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " and please stop dunning in paranoia plus
                  interpretations of decades old events.
                   
                  I cannot believe it. It is 2008, and here we go again  beating a DEAD HORSE.


                  Jack Sarfatti < sarfatti@...> wrote:


                  Latest from Bekkum. Gary find that Helms 1967 CIA document on this
                  topic - lost it in my HD crash.
                  Point is there is an official USG mil-intel paper trail on all the
                  "pseudoscience" - don't be too sure it's only that pride goeth before
                  The Decline and Fall. America has never been so weak.
                  http://prosites-prs.homestead.com/index.html





                • Jack Sarfatti
                   Yes, and we David and I have an astounding secret about this which must, alas, remain secret for now. I knew Koestler and his wife in London 1974 during
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 1, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                  • Jack Sarfatti
                    ... How do you know? Sources? You mean Puthoff and Targ are out of this loop? ... Hardly. ... Such as? God is in the details. ... What about Iranian and
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 1, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment

                      On Jan 1, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Andrew Beckwith wrote:

                      Bullshit. The problems exist, but we have our own R and D.

                      How do you know? Sources? You mean Puthoff and Targ are out of this loop?
                       
                      This is turning into a very exaggerated conversation.

                      Hardly.
                       
                      Once again, this country has lots of vulnerabilities, but not the ones you think, and
                      in addition, we need to avoid good money into bad projects. We are also vulnerable
                      in ways which I think you guys are not aware of.

                      Such as? God is in the details.
                       
                      What was an order of magnitude more dangerous was the known datum of sleeper
                      agents, and the like placed in this country. I.e. people willing to commence active
                      sabotage if war broke out between the United States and Russia.

                      What about Iranian and Venezuelan, Cuban et-al sleepers coming in with the illegal immigrants through Mexico?
                       
                      Going back as early as the Korean war, Soviet agents were willing to activate nets
                      of people targeting the  movement of war supplies from CONUS into Korea.

                      Relevance to 2008? ;-)
                       
                      Same problem during Vietnam. It is Gods grace that conditions never came close
                      to war time where sabotage on a large scale would have been used for strategic
                      purposes.
                       
                      I do not know what the current state of affairs is,

                      10-4

                      but our refineries and the like could
                      be hit very hard in active war time conditions. Russian plans to do just that in case of
                      a fight between NATO and the WARSAW pact from the 1960s to 1980s were well
                      advanced, and could have created significant headaches. Not to mention vulnerabilities
                      in our civilian power grid.
                       
                      The problem is that the other side is EQUALLY vulnerable, or even more so.

                      Which other side do you mean?
                       
                      The one thing you guys fail to take into account is that even today Russia has extremely
                      centralized communications, command and control systems. Both sides have glaring
                      vulnerabilities.

                      Oh you mean Russia - I would think Iran, Venezuela, Cuba - and we may lose Pakistan - then there is China.
                       
                      It is not necessarily to our advantage that the other side is vulnerable. One gets into the
                      'use it or lose it' syndrome, with all of the unpleasant side effects that could create.

                      If you mean Russia, I agree.
                       
                      But to imply that this country is defenseless is laughable.

                      Our army is way too small and exhausted. Our national guard depleted. We are very vulnerable to attack on many levels - including the dollar - and we have not yet begun to feel the sub-prime real estate crisis.
                       
                      If I were you, I would worry a lot more about China, and what it could do to this
                      country strategically in the next ten years, than spin yarns on this stuff.

                      As David indicates below we know something you do not but we cannot tell what we know.


                      d14947 <d14947@...> wrote:
                      Of course, Jack is correct, the threat is real and the capabilities are not prosaic at all, in fact they are quite astounding.

                      On Jan 1, 2008 6:01 PM, COLIN BENNET < sharkley1@...> wrote:

                      Thank you Andrew for these intriguing thoughts. There is one correction. Ref "Cardinal Minisky." His real name was Mindszenty, see http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDmindszenty.htm
                      Yes The Search for the Manchurian Candidate is a brilliant book, somewhat neglected. With regard to the structural technique  of the psychology of Soviet brain-washing interrogation as this time, John Marks'  book should be read with three others:
                      Arrival and Departure and Darkness at Noon by Arthur Koestler, and The Mind Manipulators by  by Scheflin and Opton, a few copies of which are still available on Amazon.
                      Colin Bennett
                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Andrew Beckwith <projectbeckwith2@...>
                      To: Jack Sarfatti < sarfatti@...>; projectbeckwith2@...
                      Cc: Gary S Bekkum < garybekkum@...>; Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars <Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars@yahoogroups.com>; "SarfattiScienceSeminars@YahooGroups . com" <SarfattiScienceSeminars@yahoogroups.com>; David Kaiser <dikaiser@... >; Ronald Pandolfi <rspandolfi@...>; Kit Green <cgreen@...>; Mark Pilkington < mark.pilkington@...>; Hal Puthoff <Puthoff@...>; Gordon Novel < g.novel@...>; Tim Ventura <tventura6@...>; Paul Murad <ufoguypaul@... >; Sharon Weinberger <sharonweinberger@...>; Joe Firmage <joe@...>; Timothy Ferris < tf@...>; Ask Science Science <askscience@...>; Brian Josephson <bdj10@...>; Filip Coppens <filip.coppens@...>; d14947 < d14947@...>; MPerel <mperel@...>; COLIN BENNET <sharkley1@...>; William Birnes < wjb1944@...>; George Knapp <gknapp@...>; Amara D. Angelica < amara@...>; Howard Bloom <HowlBloom@...>; Waldyr A. Rodrigues Jr. <walrod@...>; nick herbert < quanta@...>; yuzhou@...; Henry Dakin <hsd@... >; S-P Sirag <sirag@...>; Alan Parker <cmdrparker@...>; Dan Smith < dantsmith@...>; caryn anscomb <nyracum@...>; Gus Russo < grguitar@...>; Stephen Broadbent <sbroadbent@...>; ryguy@... ; Jerry Pippin <jerrypippin@...>; earthfiles@...; Bob Sheaffer < roberto@...>; stapp@...; George Weissman <georgeweis@...>; John Petersen <johnp@...>; Howard Fertman < hfertman@...>; redemp@...; creon.levit@... ; rainman.hudson@...; tachyondavis@...; Robert Shaheen < ras7945@...>; leon lisbona <llisbona@...>
                      Sent: Tuesday, 1 January, 2008 8:22:42 PM
                      Subject: Re: Torsion weapons research in Ukraine & Russia?/ Relevance to 2008?

                      The CIA investigated stuff you would not believe. Did you ever read the book
                      " The search for the Manchurian Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " ?
                       
                      Primarily, Jack, the Agency was tasked to investigate all available techniques into
                      cracking the secrets allegedly behind the Soviet show trials, with defendants
                      confessing to crimes which were held to be imaginary, and also not believable. The
                      exibit A of this was Cardinal Minisky of Hungary who acted as though he had been
                      put under some mind control technology.
                       
                      The other catalyst behind the Agency investigations was the datum that during the
                      Korean war American POWs bought into the Chinese claims of 'germ warfare' and
                      confessed to being accompances to such things, even going so far as to not
                      recant in full such 'confessions' when repatriated to the United States.
                       
                      It scared the living hell out of a prior generation, Jack.
                       
                      You are confusing , and perhaps with the best of intentions, a war time commitment to
                      explore and develop unheard of technologies under what people felt was an imminent
                      catastrophe in the making with a well thought out R and D program in long term
                      time lines.
                       
                      Jack, do yourself a favor and read that book. I have a copy of it, and I revisited it early
                      this morning in January 1st, 2008.
                       
                      Jack, there is another thing. It was the JOB of the CIA to at least investigate claims
                      of the paranormal. They would have been derelict in their duty NOT to.
                       
                      That does not mean that there are supra doopah mind control devices ready to be
                      distributed to enslave CONUS.
                       
                      Get a freaking grip, Jack.
                       
                      I am writing an update as to research directions and the like from my Pune, India
                      trip, and I cannot believe that you are re hashing this old vomit.
                       
                      You are not cleared to know what really was done with the remote viewing technology
                      which incidently DID become useful in a restricted sense. Some of the techniques, albeit
                      with major limitations have been used to good effect. But the physical explanation of
                      this and many other things is surprisingly prosaic and not at all startling, once people
                      know the details.
                       
                      None of this is gee whiz science.
                       
                      Why don't you give it a rest, Jack, and put things in PERSPECTIVE.
                       
                      I see you whipping ut up, getting excited and all lathered up , firing all cylinders, and
                      missing what I said about the CIA investigations.
                       
                      1. The CIA had NO OTHER CHOICE but to make its investigations into the paranormal
                      for the reason I stated above.
                       
                      2. No mass produced mind control devices exists to remotely turn individuals into
                      'manchurian candidate' robotic assasins, or any of the horrors the CIA was OBLIGATED
                      to at least investigate in the 1940s- 70s
                       
                      3. Remote Viewing, and other such allegedly fringe techniques have been, with sharp
                      limitations on their use, emerged as solid but unspectacular additions to investigative
                      techniques used by the military and CIA for national security cases and war time
                      episodes. The physics of these techniques is not nearly as strange as what people
                      think, and is not magical.
                       
                      Stop whipping it up, Jack. For CHRIST sake, go read that book " The Manchurian
                      Candidate; the CIA and Mind control " and please stop dunning in paranoia plus
                      interpretations of decades old events.
                       
                      I cannot believe it. It is 2008, and here we go again  beating a DEAD HORSE.


                      Jack Sarfatti < sarfatti@...> wrote:


                      Latest from Bekkum. Gary find that Helms 1967 CIA document on this
                      topic - lost it in my HD crash.
                      Point is there is an official USG mil-intel paper trail on all the
                      "pseudoscience" - don't be too sure it's only that pride goeth before
                      The Decline and Fall. America has never been so weak.
                      http://prosites-prs.homestead.com/index.html





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