Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SanghaOnline] think about it!

Expand Messages
  • Ven. Acara
    Dear Dipankaro, I appreciate your curiosity. Please, read my explanation. Saamayika ceto vimuttii = temporary liberation of mind (Bhikkhu Bodhi). This
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 27, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Dipankaro,

      I appreciate your curiosity.

      Please, read my explanation.



      "Saamayika ceto vimuttii = temporary liberation of mind" (Bhikkhu Bodhi).

      This translation is literal and acceptable.



      Saamamyika Vimutti is not Arahantship, it is mundane liberation.



      In Godhika Sutta, it is said: "saamayikam. cetovimuttim. phusi" Godhika
      attained temporary liberation (saamayika-cetovimutti).

      Here, we should know two kinds of 'Vimuttis' which are:

      Saamayika Vimutti and

      A-saamayika Vimutti.

      Saamamyika Vimutti is temporary liberation; one's mind is liberated when he
      is absorbed in Jaana; when Jaana is dropped off, one's mind is again
      overwhelmed by Kilesas. I mean the liberation is temporary.

      A-saamayika Vimutti or complete freedom is achieved through Magga and Phala.



      In Godhika-sutta, at first, Godhika gained the temporary liberation and he
      lost it for six times; i.e. he gained Lokiya-samaapatti (Saamayika Vimutti).
      If he gained Lokuttara-samaapatti (A-saamayika Vimutti), there would be
      nothing to lose; and he finally gained perfect liberation (A-saamayika
      Vimutti).



      In Pat.isambhidaamagga Paal.i (paragraph 203), you may see the definitions
      of Saamayika Vimokkha and Asaamayika Vimokkha. Here, 'Vimokkha' and
      'Vimutti' are synonyms. Saamayika Vimokkha (or Saamayika Vimutti) means
      'Jaana' and 'Samaapatti'. A-saamayika Vimokkha (or A-saamayika Vimutti)
      means 'Magga', 'Phala' and 'Nibbaana'.



      For more information about 'Samayika Vimutti' and 'A-samayika Vimutti', you
      should see the following suttas:

      (a) Mahaasun~n~ta Sutta, Sun~n~ta Vagga,
      Uparipan.n.aasa, Majjima Nikaaya;

      (b) Khaggavisaan. Sutta, Cuul.-niddesa,
      Khuddaka Nikaaya;

      (c) Migasaalaa Sutta, Dhammika Vagga, Chakka
      Nipaata, Anguttara Nikaaya and

      (d) Migasaalaa Sutta, Akankha Vagga, Dasaka
      Nipaata, Anguttara Nikaaya.



      And again, let us have a look at another Paal.i word. In Godhika-sutta, you
      remenber the words "saamayikaaya cetovimuttiyaa *parihaayi*". Godhika
      *lost*his temporary freedom (lokiya-samaapatti). In this connection, I
      translate
      the Paal.i word 'parihaayi' as 'lost'.



      And again, in Pan~capakaran.-at.t.hakatthaa (page 37), we can see two kinds
      of 'parihaanis' which are:

      Patta-parihaani = to lose what one has achieved and

      A-patta-parihaani = to fail to achieve (higher stages).



      Jaana and Samaapatti in mundane world may be lost even when we have achieved
      them. In the same way, we may be unable to find a chance to increase our
      meritorious deeds. (Patta-parihaani)

      Puthujanas, Sotaapanna, Sakadaagaami and Anaagaami may lose Jaana or
      Samaapatti what they have achieved; and they may fail to achieve higher
      stages. (Patta-parihaani and A-patta-parihaani)

      Sotaapanna, Sakadaagaami, Anaagaami and Arahant will never lose their
      respective Magga and Phala what they have already achieved.



      In the Sutta, Godhika lost mundane Jaana and Samaapatti what he had
      achieved; and in the beginning, he failed to achieve higher stages; finally
      he achieved the highest stage Arahantship.



      Here is a last information: according to Puggalapan~n~atti
      Paal.i(ekaka-paggalapan~n~atti) and
      Pat.isambhidaamagga Paal.i (satokaarin~aan.a-niddeso,
      dasaiddhi-niddeso), *Magga
      and Pala may not be destroyed, and may not be lost when they have been
      achieved*.



      May I conclude that Arahats or any Ariyas will never fall down from their
      respective stages what they have attained. In the Sarvastivada, a wrong
      conclusion was made. Because they did not understand the meaning of
      'Saamayika Vimutti' which is not 'Arahantship'. And they did not understand
      two kinds of 'Parihaanis'.



      Let me know you how do you understand my explanation.

      Yours in the Dhamma

      Acara

      On 7/20/06, dipankaro <dipankaro@...> wrote:
      >
      > The Sarvastivada tradition hold that, in Samyutta Nikaya of Theravada
      > tradition there is a sutta, which tells an Arahat fall from his stage up
      > to 6
      > times, where as Sarvastivada itself doesn't regard this! Over this
      > controversies , an investigatiion has been done, in the Samyutta Nikaya,
      > (Both Godhika , and Vakkali sutta) relating to that. But what the text
      > says"
      > Saamayika ceto vimuttii- temporary liberation of mind" ( as appeared in
      > Bhikkhu Bodhi translation), which is due to suppression of defilements and
      >
      > attained Samaapatti, from which he was fallen back because of illness-
      > this way commentary said. Later both Bhikkhus atained Arahantship at the
      > moment of being siucide themselves(commentary).
      > Now , Ceto vimutti, is the stage of Arahant magga, and immediately follows
      >
      > Pannya vimutti, Arahatta Phala. So what can the real meaning , is it right
      > to
      > say Saamamyika ceto vimutti is Arahantship? Beside the commentary's
      > comment what can be the more explanation, inthe view of Sarvastivada?
      > With metta,
      > from a Buddhist student.
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • vamjok vamjok
      dear vens, bhante, just a question to clear my doubts. is the concept of buddha-nature an original theravada idea? does theravadin accept this? i came across
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 25, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        dear vens,

        bhante, just a question to clear my doubts. is the
        concept of "buddha-nature" an original theravada idea?
        does theravadin accept this?

        i came across this concept when i was in pureland
        buddhism many years ago. then i decide to read the
        canon following the advise of friend and then i
        started to throw away all my mahayana text (after a
        bit of research).

        however i must say majority of the ideas does blend
        well the difference is mainly on culture. however this
        is one of the concept which personally i felt its a
        big crash with the canon.

        upon touching on concept of 12 dependent origins and
        non self, the idea of having a "buddha nature" and
        clearing the cloud that is clouding that buddha nature
        means you will be enlightened does not blend well with
        the teaching of non self(buddha nature is a mental
        made up self in this case). this is the kind of
        concept i keep on hearing when i was on northern
        school temple in the past.

        hopefully someone will be able to clear my doubt. if
        on fearing on touching on sensitive issue and is not
        suitable to be discuss in open, feel free to email me
        at vamjok@....

        many thanks

        kenny.



        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com
      • han tun
        Venerable Monks, Sir, I have written in another Discussion Group that attavadupadana is the same as sakkaya-ditthi. Another member wrote back that
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 25, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Venerable Monks,

          Sir, I have written in another Discussion Group that
          attavadupadana is the same as sakkaya-ditthi.
          Another member wrote back that attavadupadana is not
          the same as sakkaya-ditthi, but it is more than
          sakkaya-ditthi.

          Therefore, my question, sir, is
          “Is attavadupadana exactly the same as sakkaya-ditthi,
          or does it have wider meaning than sakkaya-ditthi?”

          With deepest reverence,
          Han Tun




          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com
        • Bhikkhu Pesala
          I like easy questions. That is, this question is clearly answered in Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw s Discourse on Dependent Origination, so all I have to do is copy
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 29, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            I like easy questions. That is, this question is clearly answered in
            Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw's Discourse on Dependent Origination, so all I
            have to do is copy and paste:

            Attachment to Belief in the Soul

            Attavaadupaadaana is a compound of attavaada and upaadaana. Attavaada
            means belief in a soul and so attavaadupaadaana is attachment to the
            view that every person has a soul. Attachment to the ego-belief is of two
            kinds: ordinary attachment and deep-rooted attachment. The ordinary
            attachment that prevails among ignorant Buddhists is not obstructive to
            progress on the Path. The belief is not deeply entrenched because they
            accept the Buddha's teaching, which denies a soul and recognizes mind and
            matter as the only reality behind a living being. Intelligent Buddhists
            are still less vulnerable to the belief, for they know that seeing,
            hearing, etc., involve only the sense-organs, the corresponding sense-
            objects, and the corresponding states of consciousness. However, most
            people are not wholly free from ego-belief. Even the insight meditator
            may fall for it, and everyone who has not attained the Noble Path is
            likely to find it attractive. Those who taught ego-belief described the
            self as the owner of the five aggregates, as an independent entity,
            possessing free-will and self-determination. It was this view of the soul
            that the Buddha rebutted in his debate with the wandering ascetic
            Saccaka. The Buddha asked, "You say that this physical body is your
            soul. Can you then always keep it well, free from anything unpleasant?"
            Saccaka had to admit that he could not. Further questioning by the Lord
            elicited that he had no control over any of the five aggregates. So
            Buddhist teachers translate "ruupam anattaa" as "the body is not subject
            to our control."

            This amounts to the denial of the wrong view of a soul as a controlling
            entity (saami-attaa). Every ordinary person holds this view and believes
            in free-will. He can overcome it completely only through insight.
          • Bhikkhu Pesala
            Not being an expert on the Mahayana doctrine of Buddha-nature is is hard for me to say whether or not the doctrine implies the existence of a permanent soul or
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 29, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Not being an expert on the Mahayana doctrine of Buddha-nature is is hard
              for me to say whether or not the doctrine implies the existence of a
              permanent soul or self. If it does, then of course it is not compatible
              with the Buddha's teaching.

              What we can say with confidence, is that there is no intrinsic difference
              between one sentient living being and another. All sentient beings have
              the potential to attain Buddhahood. According to the Theravada doctrine,
              the bodhisatta was reborn several times in the animal realms on his long
              journey from the feet of Dipankara Buddha to the foot of the Bodhi tree.
              On at least one occasion during that period he was reborn in hell.

              Therefore all human beings who are not insane, all men, all women, have
              the inherent capacity to acquire wisdom. However, the ability of
              individuals varies enormously. Perfections need to be accumulated to
              attain Buddhahood, or even to attain the modest goal of Stream-winning,
              which is just entering the path that leads to the final goal. It is a
              nonsense to say that we are all Buddhas already, but just have not
              realised it yet due to our mental defilements and obscurations. It is
              like saying that we all have two legs so we can all run 100 metres in
              ten seconds or run a mile in four minutes.

              Those mental defilements and obscurations are the kammic result of many
              lifetimes of unskilful thoughts, words, and deeds. Unless we dedicate
              ourselves very seriously to Dhamma study and meditation practice, those
              mental defilements and obscurations will prevent us from attaining
              nibbana in this very life. Let alone striving for nibbana, those
              defilements prevent many people from even taking up the practice of
              meditation in earnest.

              http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/clipboard/tooyoung_toolate.gif

              Every child has the potential to achieve great things in life. Very few
              realise their full potential, most do not. Only a Buddha could know what
              the limits of any person's potential are. We cannot know whether we have
              the potential to attain the goal in this very life or not. Only if we
              strive with the utmost diligence for the entire life, and still fail,
              could we rightly blame our failure on not having sufficient perfections.

              Since most Buddhists do not strive their utmost even for the duration of
              a ten-day vipassana course, I think we can safely assume that they are
              not going to realise their full potential in this lifetime.
            • Arjan Schrier
              Dear Sayadaw s, Wher could i find the story ( a Jataka?) on how the boddhisatva was born in hel during his excercises to become a buddha? With high regards,
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 29, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Sayadaw's,

                Wher could i find the story ( a Jataka?) on how the boddhisatva was born in hel during his excercises to become a buddha?

                With high regards,

                Arjan Schrier

                Bhikkhu Pesala <pesala@...> wrote:
                Not being an expert on the Mahayana doctrine of Buddha-nature is is hard
                for me to say whether or not the doctrine implies the existence of a
                permanent soul or self. If it does, then of course it is not compatible
                with the Buddha's teaching.

                What we can say with confidence, is that there is no intrinsic difference
                between one sentient living being and another. All sentient beings have
                the potential to attain Buddhahood. According to the Theravada doctrine,
                the bodhisatta was reborn several times in the animal realms on his long
                journey from the feet of Dipankara Buddha to the foot of the Bodhi tree.
                On at least one occasion during that period he was reborn in hell.

                Therefore all human beings who are not insane, all men, all women, have
                the inherent capacity to acquire wisdom. However, the ability of
                individuals varies enormously. Perfections need to be accumulated to
                attain Buddhahood, or even to attain the modest goal of Stream-winning,
                which is just entering the path that leads to the final goal. It is a
                nonsense to say that we are all Buddhas already, but just have not
                realised it yet due to our mental defilements and obscurations. It is
                like saying that we all have two legs so we can all run 100 metres in
                ten seconds or run a mile in four minutes.

                Those mental defilements and obscurations are the kammic result of many
                lifetimes of unskilful thoughts, words, and deeds. Unless we dedicate
                ourselves very seriously to Dhamma study and meditation practice, those
                mental defilements and obscurations will prevent us from attaining
                nibbana in this very life. Let alone striving for nibbana, those
                defilements prevent many people from even taking up the practice of
                meditation in earnest.

                http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/clipboard/tooyoung_toolate.gif

                Every child has the potential to achieve great things in life. Very few
                realise their full potential, most do not. Only a Buddha could know what
                the limits of any person's potential are. We cannot know whether we have
                the potential to attain the goal in this very life or not. Only if we
                strive with the utmost diligence for the entire life, and still fail,
                could we rightly blame our failure on not having sufficient perfections.

                Since most Buddhists do not strive their utmost even for the duration of
                a ten-day vipassana course, I think we can safely assume that they are
                not going to realise their full potential in this lifetime.






                ---------------------------------
                Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bhikkhu Pesala
                See the Temiya Jataka also known as the Mugapakkha Jataka While sitting in his father s lap while the king presided over criminal cases, the bodhisatta
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 31, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  See the Temiya Jataka also known as the Mugapakkha Jataka

                  While sitting in his father's lap while the king presided over criminal
                  cases, the bodhisatta recollected his previous life in hell, and the one
                  before that as a king when he had sentenced criminals to death, the
                  bodhisatta played deaf, dumb, and crippled so that he would not become a
                  king again.

                  http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/me_mu/mugapakkha_jat_538.htm

                  --- In SanghaOnline@yahoogroups.com, Arjan Schrier <ajschrier@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Sayadaw's,
                  >
                  > Wher could i find the story ( a Jataka?) on how the boddhisatva was
                  born in hel during his excercises to become a buddha?
                • vamjok vamjok
                  thanks for all the kind reply. best wishes. kenny __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 1, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    thanks for all the kind reply.

                    best wishes.
                    kenny

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.