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  • dipankaro
    The Sarvastivada tradition hold that, in Samyutta Nikaya of Theravada tradition there is a sutta, which tells an Arahat fall from his stage up to 6 times,
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 20, 2006
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      The Sarvastivada tradition hold that, in Samyutta Nikaya of Theravada
      tradition there is a sutta, which tells an Arahat fall from his stage up to 6
      times, where as Sarvastivada itself doesn't regard this! Over this
      controversies , an investigatiion has been done, in the Samyutta Nikaya,
      (Both Godhika , and Vakkali sutta) relating to that. But what the text says"
      Saamayika ceto vimuttii- temporary liberation of mind" ( as appeared in
      Bhikkhu Bodhi translation), which is due to suppression of defilements and
      attained Samaapatti, from which he was fallen back because of illness-
      this way commentary said. Later both Bhikkhus atained Arahantship at the
      moment of being siucide themselves(commentary).
      Now , Ceto vimutti, is the stage of Arahant magga, and immediately follows
      Pannya vimutti, Arahatta Phala. So what can the real meaning , is it right to
      say Saamamyika ceto vimutti is Arahantship? Beside the commentary's
      comment what can be the more explanation, inthe view of Sarvastivada?
      With metta,
      from a Buddhist student.
    • Ven. Acara
      Dear Dipankaro, I appreciate your curiosity. Please, read my explanation. Saamayika ceto vimuttii = temporary liberation of mind (Bhikkhu Bodhi). This
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 27, 2006
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        Dear Dipankaro,

        I appreciate your curiosity.

        Please, read my explanation.



        "Saamayika ceto vimuttii = temporary liberation of mind" (Bhikkhu Bodhi).

        This translation is literal and acceptable.



        Saamamyika Vimutti is not Arahantship, it is mundane liberation.



        In Godhika Sutta, it is said: "saamayikam. cetovimuttim. phusi" Godhika
        attained temporary liberation (saamayika-cetovimutti).

        Here, we should know two kinds of 'Vimuttis' which are:

        Saamayika Vimutti and

        A-saamayika Vimutti.

        Saamamyika Vimutti is temporary liberation; one's mind is liberated when he
        is absorbed in Jaana; when Jaana is dropped off, one's mind is again
        overwhelmed by Kilesas. I mean the liberation is temporary.

        A-saamayika Vimutti or complete freedom is achieved through Magga and Phala.



        In Godhika-sutta, at first, Godhika gained the temporary liberation and he
        lost it for six times; i.e. he gained Lokiya-samaapatti (Saamayika Vimutti).
        If he gained Lokuttara-samaapatti (A-saamayika Vimutti), there would be
        nothing to lose; and he finally gained perfect liberation (A-saamayika
        Vimutti).



        In Pat.isambhidaamagga Paal.i (paragraph 203), you may see the definitions
        of Saamayika Vimokkha and Asaamayika Vimokkha. Here, 'Vimokkha' and
        'Vimutti' are synonyms. Saamayika Vimokkha (or Saamayika Vimutti) means
        'Jaana' and 'Samaapatti'. A-saamayika Vimokkha (or A-saamayika Vimutti)
        means 'Magga', 'Phala' and 'Nibbaana'.



        For more information about 'Samayika Vimutti' and 'A-samayika Vimutti', you
        should see the following suttas:

        (a) Mahaasun~n~ta Sutta, Sun~n~ta Vagga,
        Uparipan.n.aasa, Majjima Nikaaya;

        (b) Khaggavisaan. Sutta, Cuul.-niddesa,
        Khuddaka Nikaaya;

        (c) Migasaalaa Sutta, Dhammika Vagga, Chakka
        Nipaata, Anguttara Nikaaya and

        (d) Migasaalaa Sutta, Akankha Vagga, Dasaka
        Nipaata, Anguttara Nikaaya.



        And again, let us have a look at another Paal.i word. In Godhika-sutta, you
        remenber the words "saamayikaaya cetovimuttiyaa *parihaayi*". Godhika
        *lost*his temporary freedom (lokiya-samaapatti). In this connection, I
        translate
        the Paal.i word 'parihaayi' as 'lost'.



        And again, in Pan~capakaran.-at.t.hakatthaa (page 37), we can see two kinds
        of 'parihaanis' which are:

        Patta-parihaani = to lose what one has achieved and

        A-patta-parihaani = to fail to achieve (higher stages).



        Jaana and Samaapatti in mundane world may be lost even when we have achieved
        them. In the same way, we may be unable to find a chance to increase our
        meritorious deeds. (Patta-parihaani)

        Puthujanas, Sotaapanna, Sakadaagaami and Anaagaami may lose Jaana or
        Samaapatti what they have achieved; and they may fail to achieve higher
        stages. (Patta-parihaani and A-patta-parihaani)

        Sotaapanna, Sakadaagaami, Anaagaami and Arahant will never lose their
        respective Magga and Phala what they have already achieved.



        In the Sutta, Godhika lost mundane Jaana and Samaapatti what he had
        achieved; and in the beginning, he failed to achieve higher stages; finally
        he achieved the highest stage Arahantship.



        Here is a last information: according to Puggalapan~n~atti
        Paal.i(ekaka-paggalapan~n~atti) and
        Pat.isambhidaamagga Paal.i (satokaarin~aan.a-niddeso,
        dasaiddhi-niddeso), *Magga
        and Pala may not be destroyed, and may not be lost when they have been
        achieved*.



        May I conclude that Arahats or any Ariyas will never fall down from their
        respective stages what they have attained. In the Sarvastivada, a wrong
        conclusion was made. Because they did not understand the meaning of
        'Saamayika Vimutti' which is not 'Arahantship'. And they did not understand
        two kinds of 'Parihaanis'.



        Let me know you how do you understand my explanation.

        Yours in the Dhamma

        Acara

        On 7/20/06, dipankaro <dipankaro@...> wrote:
        >
        > The Sarvastivada tradition hold that, in Samyutta Nikaya of Theravada
        > tradition there is a sutta, which tells an Arahat fall from his stage up
        > to 6
        > times, where as Sarvastivada itself doesn't regard this! Over this
        > controversies , an investigatiion has been done, in the Samyutta Nikaya,
        > (Both Godhika , and Vakkali sutta) relating to that. But what the text
        > says"
        > Saamayika ceto vimuttii- temporary liberation of mind" ( as appeared in
        > Bhikkhu Bodhi translation), which is due to suppression of defilements and
        >
        > attained Samaapatti, from which he was fallen back because of illness-
        > this way commentary said. Later both Bhikkhus atained Arahantship at the
        > moment of being siucide themselves(commentary).
        > Now , Ceto vimutti, is the stage of Arahant magga, and immediately follows
        >
        > Pannya vimutti, Arahatta Phala. So what can the real meaning , is it right
        > to
        > say Saamamyika ceto vimutti is Arahantship? Beside the commentary's
        > comment what can be the more explanation, inthe view of Sarvastivada?
        > With metta,
        > from a Buddhist student.
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • vamjok vamjok
        dear vens, bhante, just a question to clear my doubts. is the concept of buddha-nature an original theravada idea? does theravadin accept this? i came across
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 25, 2006
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          dear vens,

          bhante, just a question to clear my doubts. is the
          concept of "buddha-nature" an original theravada idea?
          does theravadin accept this?

          i came across this concept when i was in pureland
          buddhism many years ago. then i decide to read the
          canon following the advise of friend and then i
          started to throw away all my mahayana text (after a
          bit of research).

          however i must say majority of the ideas does blend
          well the difference is mainly on culture. however this
          is one of the concept which personally i felt its a
          big crash with the canon.

          upon touching on concept of 12 dependent origins and
          non self, the idea of having a "buddha nature" and
          clearing the cloud that is clouding that buddha nature
          means you will be enlightened does not blend well with
          the teaching of non self(buddha nature is a mental
          made up self in this case). this is the kind of
          concept i keep on hearing when i was on northern
          school temple in the past.

          hopefully someone will be able to clear my doubt. if
          on fearing on touching on sensitive issue and is not
          suitable to be discuss in open, feel free to email me
          at vamjok@....

          many thanks

          kenny.



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        • han tun
          Venerable Monks, Sir, I have written in another Discussion Group that attavadupadana is the same as sakkaya-ditthi. Another member wrote back that
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 25, 2006
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            Venerable Monks,

            Sir, I have written in another Discussion Group that
            attavadupadana is the same as sakkaya-ditthi.
            Another member wrote back that attavadupadana is not
            the same as sakkaya-ditthi, but it is more than
            sakkaya-ditthi.

            Therefore, my question, sir, is
            “Is attavadupadana exactly the same as sakkaya-ditthi,
            or does it have wider meaning than sakkaya-ditthi?”

            With deepest reverence,
            Han Tun




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          • Bhikkhu Pesala
            I like easy questions. That is, this question is clearly answered in Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw s Discourse on Dependent Origination, so all I have to do is copy
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 29, 2006
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              I like easy questions. That is, this question is clearly answered in
              Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw's Discourse on Dependent Origination, so all I
              have to do is copy and paste:

              Attachment to Belief in the Soul

              Attavaadupaadaana is a compound of attavaada and upaadaana. Attavaada
              means belief in a soul and so attavaadupaadaana is attachment to the
              view that every person has a soul. Attachment to the ego-belief is of two
              kinds: ordinary attachment and deep-rooted attachment. The ordinary
              attachment that prevails among ignorant Buddhists is not obstructive to
              progress on the Path. The belief is not deeply entrenched because they
              accept the Buddha's teaching, which denies a soul and recognizes mind and
              matter as the only reality behind a living being. Intelligent Buddhists
              are still less vulnerable to the belief, for they know that seeing,
              hearing, etc., involve only the sense-organs, the corresponding sense-
              objects, and the corresponding states of consciousness. However, most
              people are not wholly free from ego-belief. Even the insight meditator
              may fall for it, and everyone who has not attained the Noble Path is
              likely to find it attractive. Those who taught ego-belief described the
              self as the owner of the five aggregates, as an independent entity,
              possessing free-will and self-determination. It was this view of the soul
              that the Buddha rebutted in his debate with the wandering ascetic
              Saccaka. The Buddha asked, "You say that this physical body is your
              soul. Can you then always keep it well, free from anything unpleasant?"
              Saccaka had to admit that he could not. Further questioning by the Lord
              elicited that he had no control over any of the five aggregates. So
              Buddhist teachers translate "ruupam anattaa" as "the body is not subject
              to our control."

              This amounts to the denial of the wrong view of a soul as a controlling
              entity (saami-attaa). Every ordinary person holds this view and believes
              in free-will. He can overcome it completely only through insight.
            • Bhikkhu Pesala
              Not being an expert on the Mahayana doctrine of Buddha-nature is is hard for me to say whether or not the doctrine implies the existence of a permanent soul or
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 29, 2006
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                Not being an expert on the Mahayana doctrine of Buddha-nature is is hard
                for me to say whether or not the doctrine implies the existence of a
                permanent soul or self. If it does, then of course it is not compatible
                with the Buddha's teaching.

                What we can say with confidence, is that there is no intrinsic difference
                between one sentient living being and another. All sentient beings have
                the potential to attain Buddhahood. According to the Theravada doctrine,
                the bodhisatta was reborn several times in the animal realms on his long
                journey from the feet of Dipankara Buddha to the foot of the Bodhi tree.
                On at least one occasion during that period he was reborn in hell.

                Therefore all human beings who are not insane, all men, all women, have
                the inherent capacity to acquire wisdom. However, the ability of
                individuals varies enormously. Perfections need to be accumulated to
                attain Buddhahood, or even to attain the modest goal of Stream-winning,
                which is just entering the path that leads to the final goal. It is a
                nonsense to say that we are all Buddhas already, but just have not
                realised it yet due to our mental defilements and obscurations. It is
                like saying that we all have two legs so we can all run 100 metres in
                ten seconds or run a mile in four minutes.

                Those mental defilements and obscurations are the kammic result of many
                lifetimes of unskilful thoughts, words, and deeds. Unless we dedicate
                ourselves very seriously to Dhamma study and meditation practice, those
                mental defilements and obscurations will prevent us from attaining
                nibbana in this very life. Let alone striving for nibbana, those
                defilements prevent many people from even taking up the practice of
                meditation in earnest.

                http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/clipboard/tooyoung_toolate.gif

                Every child has the potential to achieve great things in life. Very few
                realise their full potential, most do not. Only a Buddha could know what
                the limits of any person's potential are. We cannot know whether we have
                the potential to attain the goal in this very life or not. Only if we
                strive with the utmost diligence for the entire life, and still fail,
                could we rightly blame our failure on not having sufficient perfections.

                Since most Buddhists do not strive their utmost even for the duration of
                a ten-day vipassana course, I think we can safely assume that they are
                not going to realise their full potential in this lifetime.
              • Arjan Schrier
                Dear Sayadaw s, Wher could i find the story ( a Jataka?) on how the boddhisatva was born in hel during his excercises to become a buddha? With high regards,
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 29, 2006
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                  Dear Sayadaw's,

                  Wher could i find the story ( a Jataka?) on how the boddhisatva was born in hel during his excercises to become a buddha?

                  With high regards,

                  Arjan Schrier

                  Bhikkhu Pesala <pesala@...> wrote:
                  Not being an expert on the Mahayana doctrine of Buddha-nature is is hard
                  for me to say whether or not the doctrine implies the existence of a
                  permanent soul or self. If it does, then of course it is not compatible
                  with the Buddha's teaching.

                  What we can say with confidence, is that there is no intrinsic difference
                  between one sentient living being and another. All sentient beings have
                  the potential to attain Buddhahood. According to the Theravada doctrine,
                  the bodhisatta was reborn several times in the animal realms on his long
                  journey from the feet of Dipankara Buddha to the foot of the Bodhi tree.
                  On at least one occasion during that period he was reborn in hell.

                  Therefore all human beings who are not insane, all men, all women, have
                  the inherent capacity to acquire wisdom. However, the ability of
                  individuals varies enormously. Perfections need to be accumulated to
                  attain Buddhahood, or even to attain the modest goal of Stream-winning,
                  which is just entering the path that leads to the final goal. It is a
                  nonsense to say that we are all Buddhas already, but just have not
                  realised it yet due to our mental defilements and obscurations. It is
                  like saying that we all have two legs so we can all run 100 metres in
                  ten seconds or run a mile in four minutes.

                  Those mental defilements and obscurations are the kammic result of many
                  lifetimes of unskilful thoughts, words, and deeds. Unless we dedicate
                  ourselves very seriously to Dhamma study and meditation practice, those
                  mental defilements and obscurations will prevent us from attaining
                  nibbana in this very life. Let alone striving for nibbana, those
                  defilements prevent many people from even taking up the practice of
                  meditation in earnest.

                  http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/clipboard/tooyoung_toolate.gif

                  Every child has the potential to achieve great things in life. Very few
                  realise their full potential, most do not. Only a Buddha could know what
                  the limits of any person's potential are. We cannot know whether we have
                  the potential to attain the goal in this very life or not. Only if we
                  strive with the utmost diligence for the entire life, and still fail,
                  could we rightly blame our failure on not having sufficient perfections.

                  Since most Buddhists do not strive their utmost even for the duration of
                  a ten-day vipassana course, I think we can safely assume that they are
                  not going to realise their full potential in this lifetime.






                  ---------------------------------
                  Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bhikkhu Pesala
                  See the Temiya Jataka also known as the Mugapakkha Jataka While sitting in his father s lap while the king presided over criminal cases, the bodhisatta
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 31, 2006
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                    See the Temiya Jataka also known as the Mugapakkha Jataka

                    While sitting in his father's lap while the king presided over criminal
                    cases, the bodhisatta recollected his previous life in hell, and the one
                    before that as a king when he had sentenced criminals to death, the
                    bodhisatta played deaf, dumb, and crippled so that he would not become a
                    king again.

                    http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/me_mu/mugapakkha_jat_538.htm

                    --- In SanghaOnline@yahoogroups.com, Arjan Schrier <ajschrier@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Sayadaw's,
                    >
                    > Wher could i find the story ( a Jataka?) on how the boddhisatva was
                    born in hel during his excercises to become a buddha?
                  • vamjok vamjok
                    thanks for all the kind reply. best wishes. kenny __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best
                    Message 9 of 9 , Sep 1, 2006
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                      thanks for all the kind reply.

                      best wishes.
                      kenny

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