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a question about vipassana-jhana

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  • Khemaramsi
    Dear Bhantes The following question has puzzle me for a long time. It is usually said by Mahasi Sayadaw that a sukkhavipassaka meditator develops vipassana
    Message 1 of 2 , Oct 14, 2005
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      Dear Bhantes

      The following question has puzzle me for a long time.

      It is usually said by Mahasi Sayadaw that a
      sukkhavipassaka meditator develops vipassana
      knowledges with khanikasamadhi, and attains to magga
      and phala without having developed rupa-jhana and
      arupa-jhana. In Visuddhi~naa.nakathaa, Mahasi Sayadaw
      says that the strength of khanikasamadhi at the stage
      of Sankharupekkha~naa.na is similar to aappanasamadhi:

      "As if in absorption": this means that the strength of
      the momentary concentration is similar to that of
      concentration which has reached full mental
      absorption. However, such similarity of momentary
      concentration with fully absorbed concentration will
      become evident (only) when the methodical practice of
      insight reaches its culmination. (trans. of
      Nyanaponika Thera)
      However, we also read, in his another book, The
      Discourse of Hemavatasutta, that the samadhi of the
      first three vipassana-~naa.nas is equivalent to 1st
      Jhana, the earlier phase of udayabbaya~naan.a to 2nd
      jhana, the advanced stage of udayabbaya~naa.na to 3rd
      jhana, and the bhanga~naa.na to 4th jhana.
      This saying seems to contradict what is said in
      Visuddhi~naa.nakathaa. In my opinion, because
      vipassana-cittas, which fall into the sphere of
      kaamaavacara, might be accompanied by all the 5 jhana
      factors, it is ok to say that the strength of
      vipassana-khanikasamadhi is close to the first jhana,
      as Mahasi Sayādaw says in Visuddhi~naa.nakathaa.
      However, it seems to be very strange to say that the
      concentration of vipassana~naa.na could be equivalent
      to the 2nd, 3rd or 4th Jhaana because, for my best
      knowledge, there seems to be no
      kaamaavacara-javana-citta that lacks vitakka or
      vicaara. Can we say that, in ‘strict’ Abhidhamma
      frame, the samadhi of vipassana~naa.na might be
      equivalent to four jhanas? If not, how should we
      understand the meaning of the words given by Mahasi
      Sayādaw in The Discourse of Hemavatasutta?

      Please kindly reply to me at your convenience.

      With metta

      Tzungkuen


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    • Bhikkhu Pesala
      To be honest, it might be beyond me to give a thorough answer to this question, even if I had more time to spare than I do now. I suspect that you have already
      Message 2 of 2 , Nov 22, 2005
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        To be honest, it might be beyond me to give a thorough answer to this
        question, even if I had more time to spare than I do now.

        I suspect that you have already read Sayadaw U pandita's book, but
        would recommend reading again the chapter on Vipassana Jhanas again
        and again until the answer becomes clear to you.

        http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pandita/html/jhanas.html

        If not, it would be better to approach a meditation master for a
        definitive answer, but the question will probably be resolved by
        itself if you continue with your meditation practice. Most doubts of
        this kind can be dispelled only by personal experience. Too much
        wisdom and not enough confidence leads to more doubts.

        --- In SanghaOnline@yahoogroups.com, Khemaramsi <tzungkuen@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Dear Bhantes
        >
        > The following question has puzzle me for a long time.
        >
        > It is usually said by Mahasi Sayadaw that a
        > sukkhavipassaka meditator develops vipassana
        > knowledges with khanikasamadhi, and attains to magga
        > and phala without having developed rupa-jhana and
        > arupa-jhana. In Visuddhi~naa.nakathaa, Mahasi Sayadaw
        > says that the strength of khanikasamadhi at the stage
        > of Sankharupekkha~naa.na is similar to aappanasamadhi:
        >
        > "As if in absorption": this means that the strength of
        > the momentary concentration is similar to that of
        > concentration which has reached full mental
        > absorption. However, such similarity of momentary
        > concentration with fully absorbed concentration will
        > become evident (only) when the methodical practice of
        > insight reaches its culmination. (trans. of
        > Nyanaponika Thera)
        > However, we also read, in his another book, The
        > Discourse of Hemavatasutta, that the samadhi of the
        > first three vipassana-~naa.nas is equivalent to 1st
        > Jhana, the earlier phase of udayabbaya~naan.a to 2nd
        > jhana, the advanced stage of udayabbaya~naa.na to 3rd
        > jhana, and the bhanga~naa.na to 4th jhana.
        > This saying seems to contradict what is said in
        > Visuddhi~naa.nakathaa. In my opinion, because
        > vipassana-cittas, which fall into the sphere of
        > kaamaavacara, might be accompanied by all the 5 jhana
        > factors, it is ok to say that the strength of
        > vipassana-khanikasamadhi is close to the first jhana,
        > as Mahasi Sayādaw says in Visuddhi~naa.nakathaa.
        > However, it seems to be very strange to say that the
        > concentration of vipassana~naa.na could be equivalent
        > to the 2nd, 3rd or 4th Jhaana because, for my best
        > knowledge, there seems to be no
        > kaamaavacara-javana-citta that lacks vitakka or
        > vicaara. Can we say that, in ¡¥strict¡¦ Abhidhamma
        > frame, the samadhi of vipassana~naa.na might be
        > equivalent to four jhanas? If not, how should we
        > understand the meaning of the words given by Mahasi
        > Sayādaw in The Discourse of Hemavatasutta?
        >
        > Please kindly reply to me at your convenience.
        >
        > With metta
        >
        > Tzungkuen
        >
        >
        > ___________________________________________________ ×îаæ Yahoo!
        ÆæĦ¼´•rͨÓ� 7.0 beta£¬ÃâÙM¾W·ëŠÔ'ÈÎÄã´ò£¡ http://messenger.yahoo
        com.tw/beta.html
        >
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