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Non-returner without Jhana

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  • Benoit Santerre
    Dear venerable sayadaws, I have a question regarding non-returners and vipassana meditation. It is said that a non-returner will take rebirth in the fourth
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 5, 2002
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      Dear venerable sayadaws,

      I have a question regarding non-returners and
      vipassana meditation.
      It is said that a non-returner will take rebirth in
      the fourth jhana Brahma world (pure abodes). However,
      it seems that according to vipassana teachings, one
      can attain this stage (and even higher, arahantship)
      without developing the jhanas. How can the
      non-returner be reborn in the fourth jhana realm if he
      attained the stage of non-returner without jhana (i.e.
      with dry insight)?
      Thank you,
      Homage to the Three Jewels,
      Benoit

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    • mmlwin
      1. It is right. A non-returner, Anagami, will take rebirth in the Brahma realm. Because he has no sensual desire. He cannot be reborn in the 11 sensual worlds.
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 11, 2002
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        1. It is right. A non-returner, Anagami, will take rebirth in the
        Brahma realm. Because he has no sensual desire. He cannot be reborn
        in the 11 sensual worlds. ( Kama 11 bumi) ( Anusaya Yamaka
        Puggalokasa vara)

        2. It is right. A person who will be reborn in anyone of the Brahma
        realm needs Jhana, which is the level of the realm.

        3. I want to mention about Jhana and Abhinana. Jhana is absorption of
        an object with its factors due to its level. Abhinana is a kind of
        super normal power associated with fifth Jhana (fourth Jhana in Pail
        text way)
        In Pali (Sukkha Vipassaka Arahanta) is a Person who attains to
        insight without any kinds of supernormal power, Abhinana.

        4. To attain the Enlightenment it is necessary that Magga and Phala
        Citta to be arisen. Magga and Phala Citta cannot arise without Jhana.
        We can see altogether there are 40 Magga and Phala Citta which are
        associated with the five stages of Jhana in Abhidhammattha singaha. (
        Atthasalini page 272 )That's why without Jhana one cannot attain the
        enlightenment. Then, how can one become the non-returner, Anagami?
        I think some people misunderstand that dry insight is without Jhana.
        The truth is it is without Abhinana .

        5. I have heard that the Most Venerable Mahasi Syadaw mentioned that
        among the insight knowledges, proper Sankharupakkha nana is equal to
        fourth Jhana. That agrees with the Abhidhamma cause. Fourth Jhana has
        two Jhana factors; Ekggata, one- pointedness of object and Upekkha,
        Vedana equanimity sensation. Sankharupakkha nana also has
        concentration and equanimity sensation in Sankhara.

        6. We should know about these two types of Jhana. They are Aramanupa
        Jhana and Lakkhanupa Jhana. They have the same factors but different
        objects.

        7. Although Sukkha Vipassaka Anagami has no Aramanupa Jhana, he has
        Lakkhanupa Jhana to attain Anagamihood. That's how the non-returner
        can be reborn in the fourth Jhana Brahma realm.

        May you all be well happy and peaceful.
        Nandasiddhi.
        KT Malaysia



        --- In SanghaOnline@y..., Benoit Santerre <benoit_santerre@y...>
        wrote:
        > Dear venerable sayadaws,
        >
        > I have a question regarding non-returners and
        > vipassana meditation.
        > It is said that a non-returner will take rebirth in
        > the fourth jhana Brahma world (pure abodes). However,
        > it seems that according to vipassana teachings, one
        > can attain this stage (and even higher, arahantship)
        > without developing the jhanas. How can the
        > non-returner be reborn in the fourth jhana realm if he
        > attained the stage of non-returner without jhana (i.e.
        > with dry insight)?
        > Thank you,
        > Homage to the Three Jewels,
        > Benoit
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
        > http://finance.yahoo.com
      • Benoit Santerre
        Thank you very much Venerable Nanda Siddhi for such an in-depth answer! It resolves the issue. However, it raises another issue in me. If Sankharuppeka nana is
        Message 3 of 4 , Sep 12, 2002
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          Thank you very much Venerable Nanda Siddhi for such an
          in-depth answer!
          It resolves the issue. However, it raises another
          issue in me. If Sankharuppeka nana is equal to the
          fourth jhana, then why are stream-winners (who also
          experience sankharuppeka nana before the path and
          fruit of sotappana) reborn in the human or sensual
          deva lokas? If they achieve sankharupakka too,
          shouldn't they go to the Brahma world also?
          Thank you,
          Homage to tripple gem,
          Benoit


          > 1. It is right. A non-returner, Anagami, will take
          > rebirth in the
          > Brahma realm. Because he has no sensual desire. He
          > cannot be reborn
          > in the 11 sensual worlds. ( Kama 11 bumi) ( Anusaya
          > Yamaka
          > Puggalokasa vara)
          >
          > 2. It is right. A person who will be reborn in
          > anyone of the Brahma
          > realm needs Jhana, which is the level of the realm.
          >
          > 3. I want to mention about Jhana and Abhinana. Jhana
          > is absorption of
          > an object with its factors due to its level.
          > Abhinana is a kind of
          > super normal power associated with fifth Jhana
          > (fourth Jhana in Pail
          > text way)
          > In Pali (Sukkha Vipassaka Arahanta) is a Person
          > who attains to
          > insight without any kinds of supernormal power,
          > Abhinana.
          >
          > 4. To attain the Enlightenment it is necessary that
          > Magga and Phala
          > Citta to be arisen. Magga and Phala Citta cannot
          > arise without Jhana.
          > We can see altogether there are 40 Magga and Phala
          > Citta which are
          > associated with the five stages of Jhana in
          > Abhidhammattha singaha. (
          > Atthasalini page 272 )That's why without Jhana one
          > cannot attain the
          > enlightenment. Then, how can one become the
          > non-returner, Anagami?
          > I think some people misunderstand that dry insight
          > is without Jhana.
          > The truth is it is without Abhinana .
          >
          > 5. I have heard that the Most Venerable Mahasi
          > Syadaw mentioned that
          > among the insight knowledges, proper Sankharupakkha
          > nana is equal to
          > fourth Jhana. That agrees with the Abhidhamma cause.
          > Fourth Jhana has
          > two Jhana factors; Ekggata, one- pointedness of
          > object and Upekkha,
          > Vedana equanimity sensation. Sankharupakkha nana
          > also has
          > concentration and equanimity sensation in Sankhara.
          >
          > 6. We should know about these two types of Jhana.
          > They are Aramanupa
          > Jhana and Lakkhanupa Jhana. They have the same
          > factors but different
          > objects.
          >
          > 7. Although Sukkha Vipassaka Anagami has no
          > Aramanupa Jhana, he has
          > Lakkhanupa Jhana to attain Anagamihood. That's how
          > the non-returner
          > can be reborn in the fourth Jhana Brahma realm.
          >
          > May you all be well happy and peaceful.
          > Nandasiddhi.
          > KT Malaysia
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In SanghaOnline@y..., Benoit Santerre
          > <benoit_santerre@y...>
          > wrote:
          > > Dear venerable sayadaws,
          > >
          > > I have a question regarding non-returners and
          > > vipassana meditation.
          > > It is said that a non-returner will take rebirth
          > in
          > > the fourth jhana Brahma world (pure abodes).
          > However,
          > > it seems that according to vipassana teachings,
          > one
          > > can attain this stage (and even higher,
          > arahantship)
          > > without developing the jhanas. How can the
          > > non-returner be reborn in the fourth jhana realm
          > if he
          > > attained the stage of non-returner without jhana
          > (i.e.
          > > with dry insight)?
          > > Thank you,
          > > Homage to the Three Jewels,
          > > Benoit
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
          > > http://finance.yahoo.com
          >
          >
          >


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        • Sayadaw Nanda Siddhi
          The answer is: their paths cannot get rid of the sensual desire. So they may be reborn in sensual world. Venerable Sayadaw Nanda Siddhi
          Message 4 of 4 , Sep 13, 2002
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            The answer is: their paths cannot get rid of the sensual desire. So they may
            be reborn in sensual world.

            Venerable Sayadaw Nanda Siddhi

            >From: Benoit Santerre <benoit_santerre@...>
            >Reply-To: SanghaOnline@yahoogroups.com
            >To: SanghaOnline@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [SanghaOnline] Re: Non-returner without Jhana (Answered by
            >Ven. Nanda Siddhi)
            >Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:48:49 -0700 (PDT)
            >
            >Thank you very much Venerable Nanda Siddhi for such an
            >in-depth answer!
            >It resolves the issue. However, it raises another
            >issue in me. If Sankharuppeka nana is equal to the
            >fourth jhana, then why are stream-winners (who also
            >experience sankharuppeka nana before the path and
            >fruit of sotappana) reborn in the human or sensual
            >deva lokas? If they achieve sankharupakka too,
            >shouldn't they go to the Brahma world also?
            >Thank you,
            >Homage to tripple gem,
            >Benoit
            >
            >
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