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  • Naia Zifu
    Maybe I ve just never seen one of the good dubs of ny anime, because I ve yet to see any that lived up to all my criteria for appropriate voice-casting,
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 3, 2003
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      Maybe I've just never seen one of the "good" dubs of ny anime, because
      I've yet to see any that lived up to all my criteria for appropriate
      voice-casting, quality of acting, and ability to pronounce any original
      names or terms left in. I'm super-picky about all those, however, probably
      much more so than most. I find a lot more meaning in hearing seiyuu pouring
      their hearts into roles than the way most American voice actors just seems
      to be "phoning it in" :-P . *shrugs* But I'm a bit odd that I think of
      anime more like an art form and a cultural experience rather than just
      entertainment. *wishes the companies would start to see it more my way*
      I never read fics that put either Haruka-sama or Michiru with anything
      male-- it's just not something I could even remotely imagine either of them
      ever doing. Definitely on my list of things that would make me leave a
      story unread after just a couple of paragraphs :-P . If people want to
      write about. . . well, people who look like Haruka-sama and Michiru, but who
      are allegedly straight, that's what those "Amara and Michelle" people are
      there for. At least then the first sight of dub names or terms would be
      like a "warning sign" to those of us who don't like to read that kind of
      thing, so we could decide right away whether to read it or not.
      Definitely I agree that changing important character traits alters who
      and what the character is, until it's no longer the same character. It's
      the same way I see the dub characters as being totally separate people from
      the originals, with the only resemblance, in most cases, being the physical.
      I don't mean to suggest people can't write what they want, but if something
      is very OOC, a lot of people won't be able to appreciate it. Maybe a
      loophole in that is, if you're going to radically alter who the characters
      are, clearly label the story AU so people know to expect changes. It
      doesn't bother me, however, if some traits hinted at in the original are
      expanded on in fics, like how many of the comments Ami-chan lets slip hint
      at her being closeted or at the very least open to experimentation. Writing
      Ami-chan in a gay relationship is more acceptable to me than Usagi-chan in
      one, because I don't think it was even hinted she would experiment.
      As putting Haruka-sama with Seiya goes. . . well, by the end of the
      series I can't really say she hates Seiya anymore, but I don't think she'd
      be disappointed is they never met again. But if the Lights did return for
      one reason or another, or our Senshi went to see them, I could imagine
      Haruka-sama and Seiya becoming friends, with time. They have a lot in
      common. As far as dating, even though Haruka-sama now knows Seiya's really
      a girl, I think the gender-changing thing would probably still creep her out
      a little. And I really don't think either of them are each other's types,
      as it seems like Haruka-sama has a thing for femmes (unfortunately :-P
      *cries because even if Haruka-sama were real, she wouldn't want me*) and
      Seiya appears to have a thing for princesses with strange hair (Usagi and
      Kakyuu being the two most important women in her life). So even if Michiru
      weren't in the picture for some reason, I can't imagine Haruka-sama would
      ever go for Seiya romantically.
      Would it make everyone here happy or sad to hear I'm a Haruka-sama
      daifan who's not into angst fics at all? I mean, the first time I read
      about Haruka-sama or Michiru being raped, killed, or getting some disease,
      sure, it was tear-jerking, but after a while you just kind of go numb to it.
      How many times can you rape, kill, or otherwise torture a character before
      it loses all impact? By now it seems a little excessive and cruel to me,
      like I have to wonder why people who claim to love these characters so enjoy
      harming them over and over? I mean, not that I haven't let bad things
      happen sometimes to characters I love, but I've never done it in excess and
      I always balance it out with good things. *thinks maybe that's why she's
      less depressed when she's writing. . . or is it writes more when less
      depressed?* *shrugs*
      Ne, people on this list pounce on people who refer to the real
      characters by dub names, yet it's perfectly acceptable to call the dub
      people real names? Isn't that kind of a problem? If we're going to insist
      people use the right names for the right people, it should go both ways. Be
      careful to use only dub names when talking about the dub, and real names
      when talking about the real show, all right?
      Haruka-sama and Michiru don't need some cheesy contest to prove their
      love for each other, which is why they didn't take it seriously. They'd
      just entered for fun, rather than trying to prove anything, which is why
      they were willing to bow out so gracefully when they saw how hard Umino
      honestly was trying to win at the contest to prove his love for Naru. It
      was really very sweet of them :-) .
      Gay people are becoming more common in the media, yes, but a majority of
      them are still stereotypes, and they still try to put the gay characters on
      at a time they think most children wouldn't be watching. I think it'll be a
      long time before gay characters are portrayed as being just like everyone
      else except they happen to love the same gender, and it'll be even longer
      (if ever :-( ) before any gay characters, stereotyped or not, appear on
      shows targeted towards young American children.



      > Unfortunatly, good dubbing is hard to come by.
      > (Though it's getting better.) There's something about actually
      > hearing the characters speaking a language you understand that makes
      > their lines, if done well, much more meaningful than reading
      > translations. Just my opinion anyway.
      >
      > Although, just for my curiousity, has anyone every read any fanfics
      > that pair up Amara and Darien (or Haruka and Mamoru?) I was just
      > curious because I've seen lots of Seiya/Haruka fics. (I confess, I'm
      > considering writing one.) But if we're going to pair Haruka up with a
      > guy in Sailor Moon (I know, perish the thought,) somehow Mamoru seems
      > a more likely choice than Seiya. At least Haruka had respect for
      > Mamoru, as opposed to hating his guts. Then again, I guess it's more
      > interesting to write the type of "most unlikely pairing" type-of-
      > stories. What do you guys think?
      >
      > Besides, when you write a fic, you are writing a fan fiction, that is, a
      story about a character that is not of your own, so you have to respect the
      more inherent characteristics of that character. Otherwise, she is not that
      character any more. If you write a fànfic about Haruka, you should write a
      fànfic in which Haruka is a lesbian, because otherwise, that character is
      not Haruka. You can call her Haruka, but she is not. It's like those stupid
      fànfics about Haruka being a male. If you don't like Haruka being a female ,
      don't use her in your fic, make your own character. Well, this is a little
      the same.
      >
      > So.. would you also say that fanfics that use other alternate
      > pairings such as Rei and Usagi are ridiculous as well? (It's pretty
      > clear that Usagi is only interested in guys, specficially Mamoru, who
      > Rei also had a crush on for a time.) If we're going to be open to
      > shoujo-ai Sailor Moon fics in general which clearly change the sexual
      > orientation of the characters involved (unless it's an H/M story,) we
      > need to be open to all these types of fics, including those that pair
      > Haruka or Michiru with a male character.
      >
      My personal opinion would be that Seiya would be the more likely
      choice than Mamoru simply because he's not really a guy. I view Haruka
      as homosexual, and Seiya is a woman (who can disguise herself as a
      man). Personally, I think that alone would make her/him more appealing
      to Haruka than Mamoru, who is male through and through (to the best of
      our knowledge...? ;P).

      Besides, by the end (well, episode 198), it seems clear to me that
      Haruka no longer hates Seiya's guts or has no respect for her. Hell,
      she entrusted Seiya with the life of her princess (Usagi)...for
      Haruka, that's saying a lot. It doesn't mean she *likes* Seiya, but
      still, it says something, I suppose.

      Hmm... Haruka seems to be the subject of emotional torture in most
      fanfics, paired with Michiru or otherwise. I've read about her being
      blind, ill with every disease imaginable, watched Michiru or any of
      her friends die in front of her numerous times, anorexic... the list
      goes on. I guess Haruka fans are also angst fans.

      I agree lol, like in the eps where Haruka and Michiru entered the love
      contest and they were just walking and the girls were talking about them.
      Ami just said, absolutely out of nowhere "they're girls and cousins too". It
      was the stupidest thing in the world.

      (Didn't Haruka and Michiru say in the Japanese
      episode that weren't taking the contest seriously in the first
      place?)

      What I can't get is why people can't accept
      homosexuality for what it is. Get over it! If you
      don't want your children watching the program, don't
      let them watch it. You're the parent, you have the
      authority! People need to understand that
      homosexuality is here to stay. "Will and Grace" is a
      popular show, isn't it? And it just so happens that
      two of the main character's are gay. Even in school's,
      too. I actually have several friends who are
      homosexual and bisexual, and I have no problem with
      that.
    • Stéphane Dumas
      You have lots of points there Naia Zifu, and I got to admit since I have others interests like roads and cars (a gas price hike and road shapes make me more
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 3, 2003
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        You have lots of points there Naia Zifu, and I got to admit since I have
        others interests like roads and cars (a gas price hike and road shapes make
        me more angry than some dubs ^_^;;) I care less about English dubs quality
        (especially when I compared with recent French dubs, the more older French
        dubs had a more higher quality since it was a time when they hired the best
        dubbers and also there was a time when French dubs studios in France had
        faced some competition from French dubs studios from Quebec, Canada but
        that's another story). There is homever some exceptions like Linda
        Bellantyne the 3rd voice of Serena/Usagi/SM.

        thanks for reading, arigato

        Stéphane Dumas
      • Katrina
        No, you re not the only one who sees the animation as an art form. I think a lot of otaku see it that way, which is why so many of them only like the subtitled
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 4, 2003
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          No, you're not the only one who sees the animation as an art form. I
          think a lot of otaku see it that way, which is why so many of them
          only like the subtitled shows, since the dialouge is a very important
          part of the art. I can usually watch either or, I like to see both if
          I can. The subtitled to see the show in its original form, and the
          dubbed, just because I'm curious to see hwo good a job was done of
          it. So far I think the best dubs I've seen are the Miyazaki movies. I
          think they really try to find good actors rather than just someone
          who will "suffice."

          I haven't watched the episode in a while, but I think saying Ami is
          in the closet is way overanalyzing the lines. She was curious about
          Haruka and Michiru, but that was it. It would be easier to argue that
          Michiru would start dating a guy than to say Ami would go out with a
          girl. I mean, Michiru has flirted with guys before, at least. Ami's
          never flirted with a girl, never even shown interest in one at all.
          She gets crushes on the boys just like the rest of them do. She had
          feelings for Urawa (I think that's his Japanese name) and was in love
          with one of the generals in her past life. *shrugs* Sorry, I just see
          Haruka and Michiru as the only characters who have interest in the
          same sex on the show, period. (with the expection of a few of the
          villains.)

          I've done a bit of emotional torture to my characters, but I try not
          to overdo it. I let them deal with one thing at a time. (As opposed
          to Haruka falling ill, Michiru commiting suicide, Hotaru running
          away, and the world being attacked all in the same fic.) I also try
          not to make pointless angst. The character should grow through their
          problems. And, on top of everything else, I'm a pushover for happy
          endings.

          -Katrina




          --- In Sailor_Uranus@yahoogroups.com, "Naia Zifu" <naia_zifu@b...>
          wrote:
          > Maybe I've just never seen one of the "good" dubs of ny anime,
          because
          > I've yet to see any that lived up to all my criteria for appropriate
          > voice-casting, quality of acting, and ability to pronounce any
          original
          > names or terms left in. I'm super-picky about all those, however,
          probably
          > much more so than most. I find a lot more meaning in hearing
          seiyuu pouring
          > their hearts into roles than the way most American voice actors
          just seems
          > to be "phoning it in" :-P . *shrugs* But I'm a bit odd that I
          think of
          > anime more like an art form and a cultural experience rather than
          just
          > entertainment. *wishes the companies would start to see it more my
          way*
          > I never read fics that put either Haruka-sama or Michiru with
          anything
          > male-- it's just not something I could even remotely imagine either
          of them
          > ever doing. Definitely on my list of things that would make me
          leave a
          > story unread after just a couple of paragraphs :-P . If people
          want to
          > write about. . . well, people who look like Haruka-sama and
          Michiru, but who
          > are allegedly straight, that's what those "Amara and Michelle"
          people are
          > there for. At least then the first sight of dub names or terms
          would be
          > like a "warning sign" to those of us who don't like to read that
          kind of
          > thing, so we could decide right away whether to read it or not.
          > Definitely I agree that changing important character traits
          alters who
          > and what the character is, until it's no longer the same
          character. It's
          > the same way I see the dub characters as being totally separate
          people from
          > the originals, with the only resemblance, in most cases, being the
          physical.
          > I don't mean to suggest people can't write what they want, but if
          something
          > is very OOC, a lot of people won't be able to appreciate it. Maybe
          a
          > loophole in that is, if you're going to radically alter who the
          characters
          > are, clearly label the story AU so people know to expect changes.
          It
          > doesn't bother me, however, if some traits hinted at in the
          original are
          > expanded on in fics, like how many of the comments Ami-chan lets
          slip hint
          > at her being closeted or at the very least open to
          experimentation. Writing
          > Ami-chan in a gay relationship is more acceptable to me than Usagi-
          chan in
          > one, because I don't think it was even hinted she would experiment.
          > As putting Haruka-sama with Seiya goes. . . well, by the end of
          the
          > series I can't really say she hates Seiya anymore, but I don't
          think she'd
          > be disappointed is they never met again. But if the Lights did
          return for
          > one reason or another, or our Senshi went to see them, I could
          imagine
          > Haruka-sama and Seiya becoming friends, with time. They have a lot
          in
          > common. As far as dating, even though Haruka-sama now knows
          Seiya's really
          > a girl, I think the gender-changing thing would probably still
          creep her out
          > a little. And I really don't think either of them are each other's
          types,
          > as it seems like Haruka-sama has a thing for femmes
          (unfortunately :-P
          > *cries because even if Haruka-sama were real, she wouldn't want
          me*) and
          > Seiya appears to have a thing for princesses with strange hair
          (Usagi and
          > Kakyuu being the two most important women in her life). So even if
          Michiru
          > weren't in the picture for some reason, I can't imagine Haruka-sama
          would
          > ever go for Seiya romantically.
          > Would it make everyone here happy or sad to hear I'm a Haruka-
          sama
          > daifan who's not into angst fics at all? I mean, the first time I
          read
          > about Haruka-sama or Michiru being raped, killed, or getting some
          disease,
          > sure, it was tear-jerking, but after a while you just kind of go
          numb to it.
          > How many times can you rape, kill, or otherwise torture a character
          before
          > it loses all impact? By now it seems a little excessive and cruel
          to me,
          > like I have to wonder why people who claim to love these characters
          so enjoy
          > harming them over and over? I mean, not that I haven't let bad
          things
          > happen sometimes to characters I love, but I've never done it in
          excess and
          > I always balance it out with good things. *thinks maybe that's why
          she's
          > less depressed when she's writing. . . or is it writes more when
          less
          > depressed?* *shrugs*
          > Ne, people on this list pounce on people who refer to the real
          > characters by dub names, yet it's perfectly acceptable to call the
          dub
          > people real names? Isn't that kind of a problem? If we're going
          to insist
          > people use the right names for the right people, it should go both
          ways. Be
          > careful to use only dub names when talking about the dub, and real
          names
          > when talking about the real show, all right?
          > Haruka-sama and Michiru don't need some cheesy contest to prove
          their
          > love for each other, which is why they didn't take it seriously.
          They'd
          > just entered for fun, rather than trying to prove anything, which
          is why
          > they were willing to bow out so gracefully when they saw how hard
          Umino
          > honestly was trying to win at the contest to prove his love for
          Naru. It
          > was really very sweet of them :-) .
          > Gay people are becoming more common in the media, yes, but a
          majority of
          > them are still stereotypes, and they still try to put the gay
          characters on
          > at a time they think most children wouldn't be watching. I think
          it'll be a
          > long time before gay characters are portrayed as being just like
          everyone
          > else except they happen to love the same gender, and it'll be even
          longer
          > (if ever :-( ) before any gay characters, stereotyped or not,
          appear on
          > shows targeted towards young American children.
          >
          >
          >
          > > Unfortunatly, good dubbing is hard to come by.
          > > (Though it's getting better.) There's something about actually
          > > hearing the characters speaking a language you understand that
          makes
          > > their lines, if done well, much more meaningful than reading
          > > translations. Just my opinion anyway.
          > >
          > > Although, just for my curiousity, has anyone every read any
          fanfics
          > > that pair up Amara and Darien (or Haruka and Mamoru?) I was just
          > > curious because I've seen lots of Seiya/Haruka fics. (I confess,
          I'm
          > > considering writing one.) But if we're going to pair Haruka up
          with a
          > > guy in Sailor Moon (I know, perish the thought,) somehow Mamoru
          seems
          > > a more likely choice than Seiya. At least Haruka had respect for
          > > Mamoru, as opposed to hating his guts. Then again, I guess it's
          more
          > > interesting to write the type of "most unlikely pairing" type-of-
          > > stories. What do you guys think?
          > >
          > > Besides, when you write a fic, you are writing a fan fiction,
          that is, a
          > story about a character that is not of your own, so you have to
          respect the
          > more inherent characteristics of that character. Otherwise, she is
          not that
          > character any more. If you write a fànfic about Haruka, you should
          write a
          > fànfic in which Haruka is a lesbian, because otherwise, that
          character is
          > not Haruka. You can call her Haruka, but she is not. It's like
          those stupid
          > fànfics about Haruka being a male. If you don't like Haruka being a
          female ,
          > don't use her in your fic, make your own character. Well, this is a
          little
          > the same.
          > >
          > > So.. would you also say that fanfics that use other alternate
          > > pairings such as Rei and Usagi are ridiculous as well? (It's
          pretty
          > > clear that Usagi is only interested in guys, specficially Mamoru,
          who
          > > Rei also had a crush on for a time.) If we're going to be open to
          > > shoujo-ai Sailor Moon fics in general which clearly change the
          sexual
          > > orientation of the characters involved (unless it's an H/M
          story,) we
          > > need to be open to all these types of fics, including those that
          pair
          > > Haruka or Michiru with a male character.
          > >
          > My personal opinion would be that Seiya would be the more likely
          > choice than Mamoru simply because he's not really a guy. I view
          Haruka
          > as homosexual, and Seiya is a woman (who can disguise herself as a
          > man). Personally, I think that alone would make her/him more
          appealing
          > to Haruka than Mamoru, who is male through and through (to the best
          of
          > our knowledge...? ;P).
          >
          > Besides, by the end (well, episode 198), it seems clear to me that
          > Haruka no longer hates Seiya's guts or has no respect for her. Hell,
          > she entrusted Seiya with the life of her princess (Usagi)...for
          > Haruka, that's saying a lot. It doesn't mean she *likes* Seiya, but
          > still, it says something, I suppose.
          >
          > Hmm... Haruka seems to be the subject of emotional torture in most
          > fanfics, paired with Michiru or otherwise. I've read about her being
          > blind, ill with every disease imaginable, watched Michiru or any of
          > her friends die in front of her numerous times, anorexic... the list
          > goes on. I guess Haruka fans are also angst fans.
          >
          > I agree lol, like in the eps where Haruka and Michiru entered the
          love
          > contest and they were just walking and the girls were talking about
          them.
          > Ami just said, absolutely out of nowhere "they're girls and cousins
          too". It
          > was the stupidest thing in the world.
          >
          > (Didn't Haruka and Michiru say in the Japanese
          > episode that weren't taking the contest seriously in the first
          > place?)
          >
          > What I can't get is why people can't accept
          > homosexuality for what it is. Get over it! If you
          > don't want your children watching the program, don't
          > let them watch it. You're the parent, you have the
          > authority! People need to understand that
          > homosexuality is here to stay. "Will and Grace" is a
          > popular show, isn't it? And it just so happens that
          > two of the main character's are gay. Even in school's,
          > too. I actually have several friends who are
          > homosexual and bisexual, and I have no problem with
          > that.
        • kanariya
          ... in the closet is way overanalyzing the lines. She was curious about Haruka and Michiru, but that was it. It would be easier to argue that Michiru would
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 4, 2003
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            >I haven't watched the episode in a while, but I think saying Ami is
            in the closet is way overanalyzing the lines. She was curious about
            Haruka and Michiru, but that was it. It would be easier to argue that
            Michiru would start dating a guy than to say Ami would go out with a
            girl. I mean, Michiru has flirted with guys before, at least. Ami's
            never flirted with a girl, never even shown interest in one at all.
            She gets crushes on the boys just like the rest of them do. She had
            feelings for Urawa (I think that's his Japanese name) and was in love
            with one of the generals in her past life. *shrugs* Sorry, I just see
            Haruka and Michiru as the only characters who have interest in the
            same sex on the show, period. (with the expection of a few of the
            villains.)

            In both of your main statements here, you're ignoring the Starlights.
            The Sailor Starlights are not villains, yet Seiya/Fighter at the very
            least shows an obvious interest in the same sex. (Usagi, if not
            arguably Kakyuu as well.)

            Also, Ami showed an interest in Taiki (Sailor Star Maker), and unlike
            Minako, she made no claim that her interest had diminished after she
            learned that Taiki was in reality a woman.

            CW
          • Katrina
            That s true, I had forgotten about the Starlights. I think after the senshi found out who the Three Lights were, though, the show turned more serious and any
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 5, 2003
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              That's true, I had forgotten about the Starlights. I think after the
              senshi found out who the Three Lights were, though, the show turned
              more serious and any affections the girls had for the Three Lights
              seemed to fade as well as they turn their attention towards the final
              battle. Plus, I don't think you can consider lines that Ami *didn't*
              say as an indication of her preferances.

              Remember in the anime that Taiki was a man, and Star Maker was a
              woman. Ami may have liked Taiki, but never showed any hint that she
              liked Star Maker, even though she saw her many times during battles
              as Sailor Mercury. In the manga when Taiki is a woman the whole time,
              there is no indication that Ami has any feelings for her at all.
              (She's actually mad at her for taking all the attention in the
              computer club and beating her in an exam.)

              -Katrina


              --- In Sailor_Uranus@yahoogroups.com, kanariya <kanariya@s...> wrote:
              > >I haven't watched the episode in a while, but I think saying Ami is
              > in the closet is way overanalyzing the lines. She was curious about
              > Haruka and Michiru, but that was it. It would be easier to argue
              that
              > Michiru would start dating a guy than to say Ami would go out with a
              > girl. I mean, Michiru has flirted with guys before, at least. Ami's
              > never flirted with a girl, never even shown interest in one at all.
              > She gets crushes on the boys just like the rest of them do. She had
              > feelings for Urawa (I think that's his Japanese name) and was in
              love
              > with one of the generals in her past life. *shrugs* Sorry, I just
              see
              > Haruka and Michiru as the only characters who have interest in the
              > same sex on the show, period. (with the expection of a few of the
              > villains.)
              >
              > In both of your main statements here, you're ignoring the
              Starlights.
              > The Sailor Starlights are not villains, yet Seiya/Fighter at the
              very
              > least shows an obvious interest in the same sex. (Usagi, if not
              > arguably Kakyuu as well.)
              >
              > Also, Ami showed an interest in Taiki (Sailor Star Maker), and
              unlike
              > Minako, she made no claim that her interest had diminished after she
              > learned that Taiki was in reality a woman.
              >
              > CW
            • kanariya
              ... woman. Ami may have liked Taiki, but never showed any hint that she liked Star Maker, even though she saw her many times during battles as Sailor Mercury.
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 5, 2003
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                >Remember in the anime that Taiki was a man, and Star Maker was a
                woman. Ami may have liked Taiki, but never showed any hint that she
                liked Star Maker, even though she saw her many times during battles
                as Sailor Mercury.

                Regardless of the sex change in the anime, 'Taiki Kou' and 'Sailor
                Star Maker' are two names for essentially the same person. More
                importantly, in my opinion there are bevahiors of Ami's that can be
                taken as indicators of an affection towards Taiki/Maker after Ami
                knows who Taiki really is, regardless of whether that affection is
                taken to be of a romantic nature or not. In particular, the scene in
                the anime where the five Inner Senshi are standing in front of Ginga
                Terebi trying to find a way in, and they're presented with a visual of
                the inside of Galaxia's sphere as Galaxia tortures the Starlights. All
                of the Inner Senshi react with horror to the scene, but Mercury
                specifically gasps "Maker!" and holds up a hand over her mouth. Her
                reaction seems extreme.

                Perhaps it's merely deep concern for a friend, of course. Regardless,
                on the whole I agree with Naia Zifu. Personally I see Ami as the most
                likely of the Inner Senshi to be bi-curious.

                CW

                P.S. To Naia Zifu - Love your Taiki/Ami fics. <g> Especially 'Wake Up
                To Love'. ;P
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