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Re: Tank pick up

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  • gmuller22
    John, As I recall you drained your fuel tank a while back. Did you find any goop in the fuel you drained? If not, it s not likely you had enough bad stuff in
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 1, 2006
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      John,

      As I recall you drained your fuel tank a while back. Did you find
      any goop in the fuel you drained? If not, it's not likely you had
      enough bad stuff in your fuel to clog up the pick-up screen,
      assuming you have a screen there at all. You also say that through
      this ordeal of yours the Racor and engine filters don't show any
      signs of water ingestion, but was there any indication of some sort
      of goop on the surface of the filter keeping in mind that the screen
      will allow smaller chunks of goop to pass through? I assume the
      answers to these questions is no, since you indicated that
      everything downstream of the tank is clean. So, it doesn't really
      sound like you have a fuel quality problem, but, rather, an
      intermittent fuel delivery problem.

      Of the things that can cause the intermittent operation of your
      diesel the item that comes to mind is the lift pump. If the lift
      pump is operating but doing so poorly such that your fuel injector
      pump reservoir is getting just enough to operate it could show the
      symptoms you describe. It's similar to what mechanical fuel pumps
      feeding the fuel reservoir of carburators used to do. If the
      diaphragm on those fuel pumps sprung a leak or the actuating lever
      wore too much it would deliver just enough fuel to allow operation
      at low loads but when you'd try to accelerate the engine would
      stall. Keeping in mind that the lift pump is also a diaphragm pump
      but actuated by a solenoid, it too could be exhibiting the same kind
      of phenomena. This can also explain what you observe when you "hit a
      series of waves", when that happens the engine load cycles and may
      be drawing more fuel than the lift pump can supply and consequently
      stalling.

      In short, just because your lift pump is operating doesn't mean that
      it is operating well. Even if this isn't the problem, it's a lot
      easier to check this possibility out than crawling around the fuel
      tank coming up with new proverbs about geese.

      Gerard







      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "John Kalinowski"
      <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
      >
      > Still having grief upon hitting a wave even after changing out the
      > Racor. Last night I swapped out the Westerbeke filter figuring it
      > may be swelled from the original water that got through, fired
      that
      > motor up and it sounds better than ever. But it was 7:30, blowing
      and
      > pitch black out. Did not want to venture out alone in the cold, so
      I
      > will do a test run this morning.
      >
      > I also checked for water in the Racor and the tank. Both are nice
      and
      > clean.
      >
      > If the engine loses power and dies again, the next thing to go
      after
      > is the tank pick up. My test today is if the motor dies, I will
      go
      > below, disconnect the pickup hose at the tank, blow into the tank
      to
      > dislodge anything near the screen and then refire the motor. If it
      > starts after that, I know the problem is the pickup.
      >
      > My question is how does one clean the pick up tube/screen? There
      is
      > no inspection port, just the 2.5" diameter hole the fuel level
      sender
      > unit bolts into.
      >
      > Do you unscrew the top of the threaded 90 degree fitting at the
      top
      > and pull the tube up, or do you need to go through the sender
      > opening? I am thinking emptying down to 1/4 tank and then
      scrubbing
      > with a baby bottle brush or rifle brush.
      >
      > Is the screen at the bottom of the tube, or around the lower edges?
      >
      > Can I jam a screwdriver through the screen to change it to the new
      > design where there is no screen on it?
      >
      > This is really starting to annoy me. As I said, the motor runs
      better
      > than a swiss watch on the mooring though the entire rev range. One
      > good set of waves and it is the perverbial goose pooping razor
      blades.
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > john
      >
    • Jim Starkey
      ... Did you check/replace the lift pump filter? -- Jim Starkey Netfrastructure, Inc. 978 526-1376
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 1, 2006
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        John Kalinowski wrote:
        > Still having grief upon hitting a wave even after changing out the
        > Racor. Last night I swapped out the Westerbeke filter figuring it
        > may be swelled from the original water that got through, fired that
        > motor up and it sounds better than ever. But it was 7:30, blowing and
        > pitch black out. Did not want to venture out alone in the cold, so I
        > will do a test run this morning.
        >
        > I also checked for water in the Racor and the tank. Both are nice and
        > clean.
        >
        >
        Did you check/replace the lift pump filter?

        --

        Jim Starkey
        Netfrastructure, Inc.
        978 526-1376
      • godwin jones
        John: Several years ago, I had similar problem - cutting out when I went over a wake. It turned out to be a slightly loose ferrule fitting at the fuel shutoff
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 1, 2006
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          John:
            Several years ago, I had similar problem - cutting out when I went over a wake.  It turned out to be a slightly loose ferrule fitting at the fuel shutoff valve.  When boat rocked, it opened up ever so slightly to let some air be sucked in.  May want to check entire line.
             To remove pickup and screen may have to tilt tank a bit to get tube out.
          Godwin
          Bojangles S-34-!!

          John Kalinowski <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
          Still having grief upon hitting a wave even after changing out the
          Racor. Last night I swapped out the Westerbeke filter figuring it
          may be swelled from the original water that got through, fired that
          motor up and it sounds better than ever. But it was 7:30, blowing and
          pitch black out. Did not want to venture out alone in the cold, so I
          will do a test run this morning.

          I also checked for water in the Racor and the tank. Both are nice and
          clean.

          If the engine loses power and dies again, the next thing to go after
          is the tank pick up. My test today is if the motor dies, I will go
          below, disconnect the pickup hose at the tank, blow into the tank to
          dislodge anything near the screen and then refire the motor. If it
          starts after that, I know the problem is the pickup.

          My question is how does one clean the pick up tube/screen? There is
          no inspection port, just the 2.5" diameter hole the fuel level sender
          unit bolts into.

          Do you unscrew the top of the threaded 90 degree fitting at the top
          and pull the tube up, or do you need to go through the sender
          opening? I am thinking emptying down to 1/4 tank and then scrubbing
          with a baby bottle brush or rifle brush.

          Is the screen at the bottom of the tube, or around the lower edges?

          Can I jam a screwdriver through the screen to change it to the new
          design where there is no screen on it?

          This is really starting to annoy me. As I said, the motor runs better
          than a swiss watch on the mooring though the entire rev range. One
          good set of waves and it is the perverbial goose pooping razor blades.

          Thanks

          john



          Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

        • john kalinowski
          I replaced the lift pump 3 years ago. The new ones have a simple screen on them that is reuseable( the old ones were paper). I had checked it, and it was
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 2, 2006
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            I replaced the lift pump 3 years ago. The new ones have a simple screen on them that is reuseable( the old ones were paper). I had checked it, and it was perfectly clean.
            The westerbeke filter looked clean, but being paper, I though maybe water had swelled it, so I had replaced that.
             
            Yesterday we had a blow come though and of course we were goign to race.  20-25 knts of wind, 7' seas outside the sound, MUCH bigger on the entrances {funny, but not a single Donzi on the water, nor a cuddy cabin cruiser make large wakes). We used the motor to get to the course, and after the race was over. Again, the motor is working perfectly now. The crew agreed the problem is now offically resolved.
             
            When I had cleaned my tank, all I ever got was some water and some fine grains of dirt/metal shavings.  And I checked all the corners.
             
            So I can now put the boat on the hard knowing the motor is all set for next season.
             
            If one's motor lose revs or die after hitting a wave and you know there is no water in the fuel, then check the pickup.
            Easiest way to tell is after letting the motor set 20 mintues when you try to refire it.
            - If it sounds like it is crapping razor blades, it is water.
            - If it fire right up, more likely a blockage somewhere (pickup, filter, line). 
            - If it still doesn't fire at all, the lift pump may  starting to go and you should check the Westerbeke filter which is downstream of the lift pump to ensure it has fuel..

            Jim Starkey <jas@...> wrote:
            John Kalinowski wrote:
            > Still having grief upon hitting a wave even after changing out the
            > Racor. Last night I swapped out the Westerbeke filter figuring it
            > may be swelled from the original water that got through, fired that
            > motor up and it sounds better than ever. But it was 7:30, blowing and
            > pitch black out. Did not want to venture out alone in the cold, so I
            > will do a test run this morning.
            >
            > I also checked for water in the Racor and the tank. Both are nice and
            > clean.
            >
            >
            Did you check/replace the lift pump filter?

            --

            Jim Starkey
            Netfrastructure, Inc.
            978 526-1376



            Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.

          • gmuller22
            ... screen on them that is reuseable( the old ones were paper). I had checked it, and it was perfectly clean. ... maybe water had swelled it, so I had replaced
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 2, 2006
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              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski
              <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
              >
              > I replaced the lift pump 3 years ago. The new ones have a simple
              screen on them that is reuseable( the old ones were paper). I had
              checked it, and it was perfectly clean.
              > The westerbeke filter looked clean, but being paper, I though
              maybe water had swelled it, so I had replaced that.
              >
              > Yesterday we had a blow come though and of course we were goign
              to race. 20-25 knts of wind, 7' seas outside the sound, MUCH bigger
              on the entrances {funny, but not a single Donzi on the water, nor a
              cuddy cabin cruiser make large wakes). We used the motor to get to
              the course, and after the race was over. Again, the motor is working
              perfectly now. The crew agreed the problem is now offically resolved.
              >
              > When I had cleaned my tank, all I ever got was some water and
              some fine grains of dirt/metal shavings. And I checked all the
              corners.
              >
              > So I can now put the boat on the hard knowing the motor is all
              set for next season.
              >
              > If one's motor lose revs or die after hitting a wave and you
              know there is no water in the fuel, then check the pickup.
              > Easiest way to tell is after letting the motor set 20 mintues
              when you try to refire it.
              > - If it sounds like it is crapping razor blades, it is water.
              > - If it fire right up, more likely a blockage somewhere (pickup,
              filter, line).
              > - If it still doesn't fire at all, the lift pump may starting
              to go and you should check the Westerbeke filter which is downstream
              of the lift pump to ensure it has fuel..
              >

              John, I wouldn't necessarily take comfort from the fact that you
              changed the lift pump a few years ago. At least that was the view of
              the Westerbeke design engineer I spoke to at a boat show a few years
              back. While talking to him about another matter he brought up the
              subject of lift pumps. Basically, he said is that an inordinate
              number of these pumps were experiencing problems early in their
              lives. It wasn't so much a problem of "infant mortality" but infant
              sickness. It seems to have been a problem of recent years since when
              I asked him about mine (which predated this problem by years) he
              said that those didn't experience the problems that the recent lift
              pumps had.


              Gerard
            • john kalinowski
              Gerard This may be true. But the Westerbeke filter which is downstream had fuel. When the lift pump dies, the filter housing is dry.(had one fail before). When
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 2, 2006
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                Gerard
                 
                This may be true.
                But the Westerbeke filter which is downstream had fuel. When the lift pump dies, the filter housing is dry.(had one fail before).
                 
                When the lift pump goes, you are correcf that one loses revs. They may come up a bit but then lose more revs before finally dying.
                The thing, they do not refire. The symptom I was seeing was loss of revs followed they the engine shutting down. But half an hour later, it would fire up and run happily for some time.
                 
                Being a typical New Englander "belt and suspenders" kind of a guy, I carry a spare lift pump onboard "just in case" along with spare filters, seals etc.
                 
                Amazing Westebeke could voice concerns on the newer versions of a pump they just got done cranking the price from $180 to almost $300.

                gmuller22 <gmuller22@...> wrote:
                --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com, john kalinowski
                <sabre32sailor@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > I replaced the lift pump 3 years ago. The new ones have a simple
                screen on them that is reuseable( the old ones were paper). I had
                checked it, and it was perfectly clean.
                > The westerbeke filter looked clean, but being paper, I though
                maybe water had swelled it, so I had replaced that.
                >
                > Yesterday we had a blow come though and of course we were goign
                to race. 20-25 knts of wind, 7' seas outside the sound, MUCH bigger
                on the entrances {funny, but not a single Donzi on the water, nor a
                cuddy cabin cruiser make large wakes). We used the motor to get to
                the course, and after the race was over. Again, the motor is working
                perfectly now. The crew agreed the problem is now offically resolved.
                >
                > When I had cleaned my tank, all I ever got was some water and
                some fine grains of dirt/metal shavings. And I checked all the
                corners.
                >
                > So I can now put the boat on the hard knowing the motor is all
                set for next season.
                >
                > If one's motor lose revs or die after hitting a wave and you
                know there is no water in the fuel, then check the pickup.
                > Easiest way to tell is after letting the motor set 20 mintues
                when you try to refire it.
                > - If it sounds like it is crapping razor blades, it is water.
                > - If it fire right up, more likely a blockage somewhere (pickup,
                filter, line).
                > - If it still doesn't fire at all, the lift pump may starting
                to go and you should check the Westerbeke filter which is downstream
                of the lift pump to ensure it has fuel..
                >

                John, I wouldn't necessarily take comfort from the fact that you
                changed the lift pump a few years ago. At least that was the view of
                the Westerbeke design engineer I spoke to at a boat show a few years
                back. While talking to him about another matter he brought up the
                subject of lift pumps. Basically, he said is that an inordinate
                number of these pumps were experiencing problems early in their
                lives. It wasn't so much a problem of "infant mortality" but infant
                sickness. It seems to have been a problem of recent years since when
                I asked him about mine (which predated this problem by years) he
                said that those didn't experience the problems that the recent lift
                pumps had.

                Gerard



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                Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

              • gmuller22
                John, While I m glad to hear that your pants won t be falling down, I m still not clear as to what cleared up this intermittent engine operation problem of
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 2, 2006
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                  John,

                  While I'm glad to hear that your pants won't be falling down, I'm
                  still not clear as to what cleared up this intermittent engine
                  operation problem of yours. I think you said that the last thing you
                  did was to change the filter thinking that the filter element had
                  absorbed water, yet you didn't indicate that there was any water in
                  the filter housing. As to the filter element absorbing water, I'm
                  doubtful of that since the filter is treated so that water coalesces
                  on the surface of the filter so that it can drop down into the
                  filter's sump. Intermittent problems are always a pain to track
                  down, but fortunately you'll have all winter to ponder this problem
                  in surroundings that should be a bit more comfortable than those in
                  25 kt. winds and 7+ foot seas.

                  Gerard






                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski
                  <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Gerard
                  >
                  > This may be true.
                  > But the Westerbeke filter which is downstream had fuel. When the
                  lift pump dies, the filter housing is dry.(had one fail before).
                  >
                  > When the lift pump goes, you are correcf that one loses revs.
                  They may come up a bit but then lose more revs before finally dying.
                  > The thing, they do not refire. The symptom I was seeing was loss
                  of revs followed they the engine shutting down. But half an hour
                  later, it would fire up and run happily for some time.
                  >
                  > Being a typical New Englander "belt and suspenders" kind of a
                  guy, I carry a spare lift pump onboard "just in case" along with
                  spare filters, seals etc.
                  >
                  > Amazing Westebeke could voice concerns on the newer versions of
                  a pump they just got done cranking the price from $180 to almost
                  $300.
                  >
                  > gmuller22 <gmuller22@...> wrote:
                  > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski
                  > <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I replaced the lift pump 3 years ago. The new ones have a simple
                  > screen on them that is reuseable( the old ones were paper). I had
                  > checked it, and it was perfectly clean.
                  > > The westerbeke filter looked clean, but being paper, I though
                  > maybe water had swelled it, so I had replaced that.
                  > >
                  > > Yesterday we had a blow come though and of course we were goign
                  > to race. 20-25 knts of wind, 7' seas outside the sound, MUCH
                  bigger
                  > on the entrances {funny, but not a single Donzi on the water, nor
                  a
                  > cuddy cabin cruiser make large wakes). We used the motor to get to
                  > the course, and after the race was over. Again, the motor is
                  working
                  > perfectly now. The crew agreed the problem is now offically
                  resolved.
                  > >
                  > > When I had cleaned my tank, all I ever got was some water and
                  > some fine grains of dirt/metal shavings. And I checked all the
                  > corners.
                  > >
                  > > So I can now put the boat on the hard knowing the motor is all
                  > set for next season.
                  > >
                  > > If one's motor lose revs or die after hitting a wave and you
                  > know there is no water in the fuel, then check the pickup.
                  > > Easiest way to tell is after letting the motor set 20 mintues
                  > when you try to refire it.
                  > > - If it sounds like it is crapping razor blades, it is water.
                  > > - If it fire right up, more likely a blockage somewhere (pickup,
                  > filter, line).
                  > > - If it still doesn't fire at all, the lift pump may starting
                  > to go and you should check the Westerbeke filter which is
                  downstream
                  > of the lift pump to ensure it has fuel..
                  > >
                  >
                  > John, I wouldn't necessarily take comfort from the fact that you
                  > changed the lift pump a few years ago. At least that was the view
                  of
                  > the Westerbeke design engineer I spoke to at a boat show a few
                  years
                  > back. While talking to him about another matter he brought up the
                  > subject of lift pumps. Basically, he said is that an inordinate
                  > number of these pumps were experiencing problems early in their
                  > lives. It wasn't so much a problem of "infant mortality" but
                  infant
                  > sickness. It seems to have been a problem of recent years since
                  when
                  > I asked him about mine (which predated this problem by years) he
                  > said that those didn't experience the problems that the recent
                  lift
                  > pumps had.
                  >
                  > Gerard
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
                  >
                • john kalinowski
                  Gerard I initially got rid of the water and put a new racor filter in. But the engine would still rev lower after a 3 mile run before cutting out. I replaced
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 2, 2006
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                    Gerard
                     
                    I initially got rid of the water and put a new racor filter in. But the engine would still rev lower after a 3 mile run before cutting out. 
                    I replaced the paper Westerbeke filter the other day and again checked for water which I found zip. So I knew at that point I was dealing with 2 problems instead of one. I do not believe the Westerbeke filter sheds water like the Racor.
                     
                    When I pulled the pickup tube Saturday, the bottom screen was full of crap. There were no real openings for the fuel to get through. I think the major aggetation the quarter full tank at the end of August stirred things up and clogged any remaining openings.
                     
                    Using a screw driver, I was able to peel most the crap off, but then I removed the screen, as they are known to cause trouble and no longer used in most tanks.
                     
                    So my initial problem was a mixture of 2 things. The water got stirred up and caused grief for the injectors. But the dirt in that mixture also closed up any last openings in the screen.  
                     
                    Getting the water out of the tank and Racor plus a new set of filters helped the water issue. But the revs dieing only to fire back up in 10-20 minutes was still there. The cleanup and removal of the fuel tank pickup tube screen seems to have addressed this in trying conditions on back to back days.
                     
                    Hopes this clears up any rambling on my part.
                     


                    gmuller22 <gmuller22@...> wrote:
                    John,

                    While I'm glad to hear that your pants won't be falling down, I'm
                    still not clear as to what cleared up this intermittent engine
                    operation problem of yours. I think you said that the last thing you
                    did was to change the filter thinking that the filter element had
                    absorbed water, yet you didn't indicate that there was any water in
                    the filter housing. As to the filter element absorbing water, I'm
                    doubtful of that since the filter is treated so that water coalesces
                    on the surface of the filter so that it can drop down into the
                    filter's sump. Intermittent problems are always a pain to track
                    down, but fortunately you'll have all winter to ponder this problem
                    in surroundings that should be a bit more comfortable than those in
                    25 kt. winds and 7+ foot seas.

                    Gerard

                    --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com, john kalinowski
                    <sabre32sailor@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Gerard
                    >
                    > This may be true.
                    > But the Westerbeke filter which is downstream had fuel. When the
                    lift pump dies, the filter housing is dry.(had one fail before).
                    >
                    > When the lift pump goes, you are correcf that one loses revs.
                    They may come up a bit but then lose more revs before finally dying.
                    > The thing, they do not refire. The symptom I was seeing was loss
                    of revs followed they the engine shutting down. But half an hour
                    later, it would fire up and run happily for some time.
                    >
                    > Being a typical New Englander "belt and suspenders" kind of a
                    guy, I carry a spare lift pump onboard "just in case" along with
                    spare filters, seals etc.
                    >
                    > Amazing Westebeke could voice concerns on the newer versions of
                    a pump they just got done cranking the price from $180 to almost
                    $300.
                    >
                    > gmuller22 <gmuller22@. ..> wrote:
                    > --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com, john kalinowski
                    > <sabre32sailor@ > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I replaced the lift pump 3 years ago. The new ones have a simple
                    > screen on them that is reuseable( the old ones were paper). I had
                    > checked it, and it was perfectly clean.
                    > > The westerbeke filter looked clean, but being paper, I though
                    > maybe water had swelled it, so I had replaced that.
                    > >
                    > > Yesterday we had a blow come though and of course we were goign
                    > to race. 20-25 knts of wind, 7' seas outside the sound, MUCH
                    bigger
                    > on the entrances {funny, but not a single Donzi on the water, nor
                    a
                    > cuddy cabin cruiser make large wakes). We used the motor to get to
                    > the course, and after the race was over. Again, the motor is
                    working
                    > perfectly now. The crew agreed the problem is now offically
                    resolved.
                    > >
                    > > When I had cleaned my tank, all I ever got was some water and
                    > some fine grains of dirt/metal shavings. And I checked all the
                    > corners.
                    > >
                    > > So I can now put the boat on the hard knowing the motor is all
                    > set for next season.
                    > >
                    > > If one's motor lose revs or die after hitting a wave and you
                    > know there is no water in the fuel, then check the pickup.
                    > > Easiest way to tell is after letting the motor set 20 mintues
                    > when you try to refire it.
                    > > - If it sounds like it is crapping razor blades, it is water.
                    > > - If it fire right up, more likely a blockage somewhere (pickup,
                    > filter, line).
                    > > - If it still doesn't fire at all, the lift pump may starting
                    > to go and you should check the Westerbeke filter which is
                    downstream
                    > of the lift pump to ensure it has fuel..
                    > >
                    >
                    > John, I wouldn't necessarily take comfort from the fact that you
                    > changed the lift pump a few years ago. At least that was the view
                    of
                    > the Westerbeke design engineer I spoke to at a boat show a few
                    years
                    > back. While talking to him about another matter he brought up the
                    > subject of lift pumps. Basically, he said is that an inordinate
                    > number of these pumps were experiencing problems early in their
                    > lives. It wasn't so much a problem of "infant mortality" but
                    infant
                    > sickness. It seems to have been a problem of recent years since
                    when
                    > I asked him about mine (which predated this problem by years) he
                    > said that those didn't experience the problems that the recent
                    lift
                    > pumps had.
                    >
                    > Gerard
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
                    >



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                  • Grant Woodside
                    The mechanic removed the screen on the tank pick up last year. Isn t it better to have a screen that gets clogged than to have no screen and maybe some crud
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 2, 2006
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                      The mechanic removed the screen on the tank pick up last year. Isn't it
                      better to have a screen that gets clogged than to have no screen and
                      maybe some crud blocking inside the fuel line?

                      Grant
                    • Peter Tollini
                      Grant- The crud won t block the pickup, it will go on to the Racor which will do its job (assuming you have the new spacer). Changing a Racor element is far
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 2, 2006
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                        Grant-

                        The crud won’t block the pickup, it will go on to the Racor which will do its job (assuming you have the new spacer). Changing a Racor element is far easier than removing the fuel pickup to clean the screen.

                        Pete

                         

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Grant Woodside
                        Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 6:16 PM
                        To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [SabreSailboat] Tank pick up screen or no screen

                         

                        The mechanic removed the screen on the tank pick up last year. Isn't it
                        better to have a screen that gets clogged than to have no screen and
                        maybe some crud blocking inside the fuel line?

                        Grant

                      • home2
                        Well, this is all very interesting, because our Westerbeke problems have persisted the past 2 weeks. Both the Racor and the engine filter were replaced 3 weeks
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 2, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Well, this is all very interesting, because our Westerbeke problems
                          have persisted the past 2 weeks.

                          Both the Racor and the engine filter were replaced 3 weeks ago, when we
                          could not get the engine to fire at all. It was then seemingly fine,
                          but - would not rev above 1900 rpm two weeks ago, under load. Full 3200
                          rpm with no load. No black smoke. No overheating. No zizzing and
                          dripping like with the tropical fishes (for anyone who remembers
                          Firesign Theatre).

                          We sailed to Scituate this past Saturday, limped in at 4kts under
                          power, and sailed home Sunday on jib alone in 21 knots and 6 - 8 ft
                          following seas, as John K noted. Not a good time to eat lunch, btw. On
                          getting into Salem Sound, the engine wouldn't fire at all. Nada. Sailed
                          onto the mooring (good thing we practice this periodically). Seems like
                          all that wave action might have shaken up the tank.

                          Avid reading of all these postings is leading me to consider the fuel
                          pump as the cause of the loss of revs - I have a shiny new (non-red)
                          Westerbeke pump to install on Saturday. My current pump is 4 seasons
                          new. But the fact it wouldn't fire after all that rolling and shaking
                          kind of indicates a dirty fuel tank.

                          After reading this latest round of fuel problems, I'm thinking I'd
                          better pull the fuel hose between the tank and the Racor and check it,
                          just in case. I doubt I have a screen since the tank was new in 2003,
                          but you never know until you open it up and look. I'm planning to check
                          that first, before replacing the fuel pump. I suppose it is possible
                          that the fuel line itself is clogged, if there is no pickup screen.

                          Guess I'd better check the Racor for water, too.

                          Any other suggestions ??

                          --Neil
                          "Whisper"
                          S362-266

                          On Oct 2, 2006, at 5:04 PM, john kalinowski wrote:

                          > Gerard
                          >  
                          > I initially got rid of the water and put a new racor filter in. But
                          > the engine would still rev lower after a 3 mile run before cutting
                          > out. 
                          > I replaced the paper Westerbeke filter the other day and again checked
                          > for water which I found zip. So I knew at that point I was dealing
                          > with 2 problems instead of one. I do not believe the Westerbeke
                          > filter sheds water like the Racor.
                          >  
                          > When I pulled the pickup tube Saturday, the bottom screen was full
                          > of crap. There were no real openings for the fuel to get through. I
                          > think the major aggetation the quarter full tank at the end of August
                          > stirred things up and clogged any remaining openings.
                          >  
                          > Using a screw driver, I was able to peel most the crap off, but then I
                          > removed the screen, as they are known to cause trouble and no longer
                          > used in most tanks.
                          >  
                          > So my initial problem was a mixture of 2 things. The water got stirred
                          > up and caused grief for the injectors. But the dirt in that mixture
                          > also closed up any last openings in the screen.  
                          >  
                          > Getting the water out of the tank and Racor plus a new set of filters
                          > helped the water issue. But the revs dieing only to fire back up in
                          > 10-20 minutes was still there. The cleanup and removal of the fuel
                          > tank pickup tube screen seems to have addressed this in trying
                          > conditions on back to back days.
                          >  
                          > Hopes this clears up any rambling on my part.
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          > gmuller22 <gmuller22@...> wrote:
                          >> John,
                          >>
                          >> While I'm glad to hear that your pants won't be falling down, I'm
                          >> still not clear as to what cleared up this intermittent engine
                          >> operation problem of yours. I think you said that the last thing you
                          >> did was to change the filter thinking that the filter element had
                          >> absorbed water, yet you didn't indicate that there was any water in
                          >> the filter housing. As to the filter element absorbing water, I'm
                          >> doubtful of that since the filter is treated so that water coalesces
                          >> on the surface of the filter so that it can drop down into the
                          >> filter's sump. Intermittent problems are always a pain to track
                          >> down, but fortunately you'll have all winter to ponder this problem
                          >> in surroundings that should be a bit more comfortable than those in
                          >> 25 kt. winds and 7+ foot seas.
                          >>
                          >> Gerard
                          >>
                          >> --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski
                          >> <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                          >> >
                          >> > Gerard
                          >> >
                          >> > This may be true.
                          >> > But the Westerbeke filter which is downstream had fuel. When the
                          >> lift pump dies, the filter housing is dry.(had one fail before).
                          >> >
                          >> > When the lift pump goes, you are correcf that one loses revs.
                          >> They may come up a bit but then lose more revs before finally dying.
                          >> > The thing, they do not refire. The symptom I was seeing was loss
                          >> of revs followed they the engine shutting down. But half an hour
                          >> later, it would fire up and run happily for some time.
                          >> >
                          >> > Being a typical New Englander "belt and suspenders" kind of a
                          >> guy, I carry a spare lift pump onboard "just in case" along with
                          >> spare filters, seals etc.
                          >> >
                          >> > Amazing Westebeke could voice concerns on the newer versions of
                          >> a pump they just got done cranking the price from $180 to almost
                          >> $300.
                          >> >
                          >> > gmuller22 <gmuller22@...> wrote:
                          >> > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski
                          >> > <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
                          >> > >
                          >> > > I replaced the lift pump 3 years ago. The new ones have a simple
                          >> > screen on them that is reuseable( the old ones were paper). I had
                          >> > checked it, and it was perfectly clean.
                          >> > > The westerbeke filter looked clean, but being paper, I though
                          >> > maybe water had swelled it, so I had replaced that.
                          >> > >
                          >> > > Yesterday we had a blow come though and of course we were goign
                          >> > to race. 20-25 knts of wind, 7' seas outside the sound, MUCH
                          >> bigger
                          >> > on the entrances {funny, but not a single Donzi on the water, nor
                          >> a
                          >> > cuddy cabin cruiser make large wakes). We used the motor to get to
                          >> > the course, and after the race was over. Again, the motor is
                          >> working
                          >> > perfectly now. The crew agreed the problem is now offically
                          >> resolved.
                          >> > >
                          >> > > When I had cleaned my tank, all I ever got was some water and
                          >> > some fine grains of dirt/metal shavings. And I checked all the
                          >> > corners.
                          >> > >
                          >> > > So I can now put the boat on the hard knowing the motor is all
                          >> > set for next season.
                          >> > >
                          >> > > If one's motor lose revs or die after hitting a wave and you
                          >> > know there is no water in the fuel, then check the pickup.
                          >> > > Easiest way to tell is after letting the motor set 20 mintues
                          >> > when you try to refire it.
                          >> > > - If it sounds like it is crapping razor blades, it is water.
                          >> > > - If it fire right up, more likely a blockage somewhere (pickup,
                          >> > filter, line).
                          >> > > - If it still doesn't fire at all, the lift pump may starting
                          >> > to go and you should check the Westerbeke filter which is
                          >> downstream
                          >> > of the lift pump to ensure it has fuel..
                          >> > >
                          >> >
                          >> > John, I wouldn't necessarily take comfort from the fact that you
                          >> > changed the lift pump a few years ago. At least that was the view
                          >> of
                          >> > the Westerbeke design engineer I spoke to at a boat show a few
                          >> years
                          >> > back. While talking to him about another matter he brought up the
                          >> > subject of lift pumps. Basically, he said is that an inordinate
                          >> > number of these pumps were experiencing problems early in their
                          >> > lives. It wasn't so much a problem of "infant mortality" but
                          >> infant
                          >> > sickness. It seems to have been a problem of recent years since
                          >> when
                          >> > I asked him about mine (which predated this problem by years) he
                          >> > said that those didn't experience the problems that the recent
                          >> lift
                          >> > pumps had.
                          >> >
                          >> > Gerard
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > ---------------------------------
                          >> > Do you Yahoo!?
                          >> > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
                          >> >
                          >>
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
                          > countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                        • gmuller22
                          Neil, If you think that there is blockage in the fuel tank or line, you can check for that rather simply by using the priming pump on the Racor filter,
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Neil,

                            If you think that there is blockage in the fuel tank or line, you
                            can check for that rather simply by using the priming pump on the
                            Racor filter, assuming that you have the same model Racor as we have
                            on our 362. Simply unscrew the primer pump knob atop the filter (its
                            a large knurled flat knob on our model) and the hex-head shaped
                            venting screw adjoining it, then vertically stroke the pump and see
                            if any fuel comes out the vent. If no or little fuel comes out
                            change the Racor filter and repeat. If that then shows fuel flowing
                            out then also change the filter on the engine.

                            You can check the action of the lift pump by disconnecting the fuel
                            line at the Racor leading to the lift pump and having someone crank
                            the engine while you place your finger over the end of the fuel line
                            to sense any suction. If no suction is sensed then you've likely got
                            a faulty lift pump. However, from your description it may simply be
                            that the filter(s) have been fouled again.

                            As to a screen being on the fuel inlet in the tank, I doubt it since
                            Sabre said they took those off before we bought our boat which
                            predates yours by many years. We haven't had any fuel issues in 10
                            years of operation (mostly on LI Sound) and while I'm careful about
                            putting a biocide in whenever I tank up, I assume that some buggies
                            are busy procreating in the tank during those hot, humid periods in
                            the summer. So, if the screen was there I assume that by now they
                            would have made their presence known. But then again I assiduously
                            avoid going out in 7+ foot seas these days after barely suppressing
                            various mutinies is such conditions over the years.

                            Gerard



                            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Neil Russell (home2)
                            <nrussell@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Well, this is all very interesting, because our Westerbeke
                            problems
                            > have persisted the past 2 weeks.
                            >
                            > Both the Racor and the engine filter were replaced 3 weeks ago,
                            when we
                            > could not get the engine to fire at all. It was then seemingly
                            fine,
                            > but - would not rev above 1900 rpm two weeks ago, under load. Full
                            3200
                            > rpm with no load. No black smoke. No overheating. No zizzing and
                            > dripping like with the tropical fishes (for anyone who remembers
                            > Firesign Theatre).
                            >
                            > We sailed to Scituate this past Saturday, limped in at 4kts under
                            > power, and sailed home Sunday on jib alone in 21 knots and 6 - 8
                            ft
                            > following seas, as John K noted. Not a good time to eat lunch,
                            btw. On
                            > getting into Salem Sound, the engine wouldn't fire at all. Nada.
                            Sailed
                            > onto the mooring (good thing we practice this periodically). Seems
                            like
                            > all that wave action might have shaken up the tank.
                            >
                            > Avid reading of all these postings is leading me to consider the
                            fuel
                            > pump as the cause of the loss of revs - I have a shiny new (non-
                            red)
                            > Westerbeke pump to install on Saturday. My current pump is 4
                            seasons
                            > new. But the fact it wouldn't fire after all that rolling and
                            shaking
                            > kind of indicates a dirty fuel tank.
                            >
                            > After reading this latest round of fuel problems, I'm thinking I'd
                            > better pull the fuel hose between the tank and the Racor and check
                            it,
                            > just in case. I doubt I have a screen since the tank was new in
                            2003,
                            > but you never know until you open it up and look. I'm planning to
                            check
                            > that first, before replacing the fuel pump. I suppose it is
                            possible
                            > that the fuel line itself is clogged, if there is no pickup screen.
                            >
                            > Guess I'd better check the Racor for water, too.
                            >
                            > Any other suggestions ??
                            >
                            > --Neil
                            > "Whisper"
                            > S362-266
                            >
                            >
                          • john kalinowski
                            Sounds like a blockage. Gerard has given you a fine diagnosis plan. If the pump checks out, you can also disconnect the fuel line at the racor inlet, attack a
                            Message 13 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Sounds like a blockage.
                              Gerard has given you a fine diagnosis plan.
                               
                              If the pump checks out, you can also disconnect the fuel line at the racor inlet, attack a 1' piece of clean 1/4" id hose and blowing hard on it.  It takes a bit to flush the fuel out of the line back into the tank, but it will finally have little resistance which tells you the pickup and line is fine.
                              You can then drain the fuel from the racor, reassemble everything and turn on the just turn the key to on for about a minute..  This should refill the Racor which will tell you if the fuel pump can handle getting fuel to the primary pump. If it works, you are down to filters.
                               
                              You using algecide in your fuel?
                              If not, the new filters may be clogged again with critters.
                               
                               
                              Always a fun ride back from Situate when a storm is in progress.  Remember coming from the Cape in 35knts with gusts to 45 knts.  Had to shut the motor off as it was overreving and actually slowing us down. Going to jib only settled the boat right down. Tons of fun provided the Admiral is not aboard. Nothing more helpless than hearing "Enough of this, get us home" while 15 miles from ANY land.
                               
                              Did you cross the cruise liner out there?  2 weeks ago, we saw the QE II heading North from Boston. Thought I saw it returning about 1 pm on Sunday.
                               

                              Neil Russell <nrussell@...> wrote:
                              Well, this is all very interesting, because our Westerbeke problems
                              have persisted the past 2 weeks.

                              Both the Racor and the engine filter were replaced 3 weeks ago, when we
                              could not get the engine to fire at all. It was then seemingly fine,
                              but - would not rev above 1900 rpm two weeks ago, under load. Full 3200
                              rpm with no load. No black smoke. No overheating. No zizzing and
                              dripping like with the tropical fishes (for anyone who remembers
                              Firesign Theatre).

                              We sailed to Scituate this past Saturday, limped in at 4kts under
                              power, and sailed home Sunday on jib alone in 21 knots and 6 - 8 ft
                              following seas, as John K noted. Not a good time to eat lunch, btw. On
                              getting into Salem Sound, the engine wouldn't fire at all. Nada. Sailed
                              onto the mooring (good thing we practice this periodically) . Seems like
                              all that wave action might have shaken up the tank.

                              Avid reading of all these postings is leading me to consider the fuel
                              pump as the cause of the loss of revs - I have a shiny new (non-red)
                              Westerbeke pump to install on Saturday. My current pump is 4 seasons
                              new. But the fact it wouldn't fire after all that rolling and shaking
                              kind of indicates a dirty fuel tank.

                              After reading this latest round of fuel problems, I'm thinking I'd
                              better pull the fuel hose between the tank and the Racor and check it,
                              just in case. I doubt I have a screen since the tank was new in 2003,
                              but you never know until you open it up and look. I'm planning to check
                              that first, before replacing the fuel pump. I suppose it is possible
                              that the fuel line itself is clogged, if there is no pickup screen.

                              Guess I'd better check the Racor for water, too.

                              Any other suggestions ??

                              --Neil
                              "Whisper"
                              S362-266

                              On Oct 2, 2006, at 5:04 PM, john kalinowski wrote:

                              > Gerard
                              >  
                              > I initially got rid of the water and put a new racor filter in. But
                              > the engine would still rev lower after a 3 mile run before cutting
                              > out. 
                              > I replaced the paper Westerbeke filter the other day and again checked
                              > for water which I found zip. So I knew at that point I was dealing
                              > with 2 problems instead of one. I do not believe the Westerbeke
                              > filter sheds water like the Racor.
                              >  
                              > When I pulled the pickup tube Saturday, the bottom screen was full
                              > of crap. There were no real openings for the fuel to get through. I
                              > think the major aggetation the quarter full tank at the end of August
                              > stirred things up and clogged any remaining openings.
                              >  
                              > Using a screw driver, I was able to peel most the crap off, but then I
                              > removed the screen, as they are known to cause trouble and no longer
                              > used in most tanks.
                              >  
                              > So my initial problem was a mixture of 2 things. The water got stirred
                              > up and caused grief for the injectors. But the dirt in that mixture
                              > also closed up any last openings in the screen.  
                              >  
                              > Getting the water out of the tank and Racor plus a new set of filters
                              > helped the water issue. But the revs dieing only to fire back up in
                              > 10-20 minutes was still there. The cleanup and removal of the fuel
                              > tank pickup tube screen seems to have addressed this in trying
                              > conditions on back to back days.
                              >  
                              > Hopes this clears up any rambling on my part.
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              > gmuller22 <gmuller22@yahoo. com> wrote:
                              >> John,
                              >>
                              >> While I'm glad to hear that your pants won't be falling down, I'm
                              >> still not clear as to what cleared up this intermittent engine
                              >> operation problem of yours. I think you said that the last thing you
                              >> did was to change the filter thinking that the filter element had
                              >> absorbed water, yet you didn't indicate that there was any water in
                              >> the filter housing. As to the filter element absorbing water, I'm
                              >> doubtful of that since the filter is treated so that water coalesces
                              >> on the surface of the filter so that it can drop down into the
                              >> filter's sump. Intermittent problems are always a pain to track
                              >> down, but fortunately you'll have all winter to ponder this problem
                              >> in surroundings that should be a bit more comfortable than those in
                              >> 25 kt. winds and 7+ foot seas.
                              >>
                              >> Gerard
                              >>
                              >> --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com, john kalinowski
                              >> <sabre32sailor@ ...> wrote:
                              >> >
                              >> > Gerard
                              >> >
                              >> > This may be true.
                              >> > But the Westerbeke filter which is downstream had fuel. When the
                              >> lift pump dies, the filter housing is dry.(had one fail before).
                              >> >
                              >> > When the lift pump goes, you are correcf that one loses revs.
                              >> They may come up a bit but then lose more revs before finally dying.
                              >> > The thing, they do not refire. The symptom I was seeing was loss
                              >> of revs followed they the engine shutting down. But half an hour
                              >> later, it would fire up and run happily for some time.
                              >> >
                              >> > Being a typical New Englander "belt and suspenders" kind of a
                              >> guy, I carry a spare lift pump onboard "just in case" along with
                              >> spare filters, seals etc.
                              >> >
                              >> > Amazing Westebeke could voice concerns on the newer versions of
                              >> a pump they just got done cranking the price from $180 to almost
                              >> $300.
                              >> >
                              >> > gmuller22 <gmuller22@. ..> wrote:
                              >> > --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com, john kalinowski
                              >> > <sabre32sailor@ > wrote:
                              >> > >
                              >> > > I replaced the lift pump 3 years ago. The new ones have a simple
                              >> > screen on them that is reuseable( the old ones were paper). I had
                              >> > checked it, and it was perfectly clean.
                              >> > > The westerbeke filter looked clean, but being paper, I though
                              >> > maybe water had swelled it, so I had replaced that.
                              >> > >
                              >> > > Yesterday we had a blow come though and of course we were goign
                              >> > to race. 20-25 knts of wind, 7' seas outside the sound, MUCH
                              >> bigger
                              >> > on the entrances {funny, but not a single Donzi on the water, nor
                              >> a
                              >> > cuddy cabin cruiser make large wakes). We used the motor to get to
                              >> > the course, and after the race was over. Again, the motor is
                              >> working
                              >> > perfectly now. The crew agreed the problem is now offically
                              >> resolved.
                              >> > >
                              >> > > When I had cleaned my tank, all I ever got was some water and
                              >> > some fine grains of dirt/metal shavings. And I checked all the
                              >> > corners.
                              >> > >
                              >> > > So I can now put the boat on the hard knowing the motor is all
                              >> > set for next season.
                              >> > >
                              >> > > If one's motor lose revs or die after hitting a wave and you
                              >> > know there is no water in the fuel, then check the pickup.
                              >> > > Easiest way to tell is after letting the motor set 20 mintues
                              >> > when you try to refire it.
                              >> > > - If it sounds like it is crapping razor blades, it is water.
                              >> > > - If it fire right up, more likely a blockage somewhere (pickup,
                              >> > filter, line).
                              >> > > - If it still doesn't fire at all, the lift pump may starting
                              >> > to go and you should check the Westerbeke filter which is
                              >> downstream
                              >> > of the lift pump to ensure it has fuel..
                              >> > >
                              >> >
                              >> > John, I wouldn't necessarily take comfort from the fact that you
                              >> > changed the lift pump a few years ago. At least that was the view
                              >> of
                              >> > the Westerbeke design engineer I spoke to at a boat show a few
                              >> years
                              >> > back. While talking to him about another matter he brought up the
                              >> > subject of lift pumps. Basically, he said is that an inordinate
                              >> > number of these pumps were experiencing problems early in their
                              >> > lives. It wasn't so much a problem of "infant mortality" but
                              >> infant
                              >> > sickness. It seems to have been a problem of recent years since
                              >> when
                              >> > I asked him about mine (which predated this problem by years) he
                              >> > said that those didn't experience the problems that the recent
                              >> lift
                              >> > pumps had.
                              >> >
                              >> > Gerard
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                              >> > Do you Yahoo!?
                              >> > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
                              >> >
                              >>
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
                              > countries) for 2¢/min or less.



                              Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                            • home2
                              Just got back to this, had to move the boat yesterday over to Manchester - had to take care of some real-world issues in the meantime... I replaced the fuel
                              Message 14 of 15 , Oct 16, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Just got back to this, had to move the boat yesterday over to
                                Manchester -
                                had to take care of some real-world issues in the meantime...

                                I replaced the fuel pump on Saturday -
                                where does all that fuel siphon from ?? it was coming back from the
                                engine,
                                out the line I removed from the top of the fuel pump (the downstream
                                side) -
                                and it did seem to start a little better - but - still topping out below
                                1900 rpms under load. The fact that the rpms were low 3 days after new
                                filters
                                leads me to believe it is either a clog in the fuel hose / tank, or ...
                                there is something else wrong with injector pump, injectors or ??
                                It's weird, because there is no smoke, and no vibrations -

                                Did not have a chance to mess with the fuel hose or the tank, will have
                                the yard take a look at it this week. I figure it is worth a physical
                                after 4 years and 400 hours...

                                John - I think that was a container ship, we sailed within about 1/2
                                mile of it,
                                but it was bouncing around a lot...

                                More later,

                                --Neil
                                Whisper
                                S362-266

                                On Oct 3, 2006, at 8:41 AM, john kalinowski wrote:

                                > Sounds like a blockage.
                                > Gerard has given you a fine diagnosis plan.
                                >  
                                > If the pump checks out, you can also disconnect the fuel line at the
                                > racor inlet, attack a 1' piece of clean 1/4" id hose and blowing hard
                                > on it.  It takes a bit to flush the fuel out of the line back into the
                                > tank, but it will finally have little resistance which tells you the
                                > pickup and line is fine.
                                > You can then drain the fuel from the racor, reassemble everything and
                                > turn on the just turn the key to on for about a minute..  This should
                                > refill the Racor which will tell you if the fuel pump can handle
                                > getting fuel to the primary pump. If it works, you are down to
                                > filters.
                                >  
                                > You using algecide in your fuel?
                                > If not, the new filters may be clogged again with critters.
                                >  
                                >  
                                > Always a fun ride back from Situate when a storm is in progress. 
                                > Remember coming from the Cape in 35knts with gusts to 45 knts.  Had to
                                > shut the motor off as it was overreving and actually slowing us down.
                                > Going to jib only settled the boat right down. Tons of fun provided
                                > the Admiral is not aboard. Nothing more helpless than hearing "Enough
                                > of this, get us home" while 15 miles from ANY land.
                                >  
                                > Did you cross the cruise liner out there?  2 weeks ago, we saw the QE
                                > II heading North from Boston. Thought I saw it returning about 1 pm on
                                > Sunday.
                                >  
                                >
                                > Neil Russell <nrussell@...> wrote:
                                >> Well, this is all very interesting, because our Westerbeke problems
                                >> have persisted the past 2 weeks.
                                >>
                                >> Both the Racor and the engine filter were replaced 3 weeks ago, when
                                >> we
                                >> could not get the engine to fire at all. It was then seemingly fine,
                                >> but - would not rev above 1900 rpm two weeks ago, under load. Full
                                >> 3200
                                >> rpm with no load. No black smoke. No overheating. No zizzing and
                                >> dripping like with the tropical fishes (for anyone who remembers
                                >> Firesign Theatre).
                                >>
                                >> We sailed to Scituate this past Saturday, limped in at 4kts under
                                >> power, and sailed home Sunday on jib alone in 21 knots and 6 - 8 ft
                                >> following seas, as John K noted. Not a good time to eat lunch, btw. On
                                >> getting into Salem Sound, the engine wouldn't fire at all. Nada.
                                >> Sailed
                                >> onto the mooring (good thing we practice this periodically). Seems
                                >> like
                                >> all that wave action might have shaken up the tank.
                                >>
                                >> Avid reading of all these postings is leading me to consider the fuel
                                >> pump as the cause of the loss of revs - I have a shiny new (non-red)
                                >> Westerbeke pump to install on Saturday. My current pump is 4 seasons
                                >> new. But the fact it wouldn't fire after all that rolling and shaking
                                >> kind of indicates a dirty fuel tank.
                                >>
                                >> After reading this latest round of fuel problems, I'm thinking I'd
                                >> better pull the fuel hose between the tank and the Racor and check it,
                                >> just in case. I doubt I have a screen since the tank was new in 2003,
                                >> but you never know until you open it up and look. I'm planning to
                                >> check
                                >> that first, before replacing the fuel pump. I suppose it is possible
                                >> that the fuel line itself is clogged, if there is no pickup screen.
                                >>
                                >> Guess I'd better check the Racor for water, too.
                                >>
                                >> Any other suggestions ??
                                >>
                                >> --Neil
                                >> "Whisper"
                                >> S362-266
                                >>
                                >> On Oct 2, 2006, at 5:04 PM, john kalinowski wrote:
                                >>
                                >> > Gerard
                                >> >  
                                >> > I initially got rid of the water and put a new racor filter in. But
                                >> > the engine would still rev lower after a 3 mile run before cutting
                                >> > out. 
                                >> > I replaced the paper Westerbeke filter the other day and again
                                >> checked
                                >> > for water which I found zip. So I knew at that point I was dealing
                                >> > with 2 problems instead of one. I do not believe the Westerbeke
                                >> > filter sheds water like the Racor.
                                >> >  
                                >> > When I pulled the pickup tube Saturday, the bottom screen was full
                                >> > of crap. There were no real openings for the fuel to get through. I
                                >> > think the major aggetation the quarter full tank at the end of
                                >> August
                                >> > stirred things up and clogged any remaining openings.
                                >> >  
                                >> > Using a screw driver, I was able to peel most the crap off, but
                                >> then I
                                >> > removed the screen, as they are known to cause trouble and no longer
                                >> > used in most tanks.
                                >> >  
                                >> > So my initial problem was a mixture of 2 things. The water got
                                >> stirred
                                >> > up and caused grief for the injectors. But the dirt in that mixture
                                >> > also closed up any last openings in the screen.  
                                >> >  
                                >> > Getting the water out of the tank and Racor plus a new set of
                                >> filters
                                >> > helped the water issue. But the revs dieing only to fire back up in
                                >> > 10-20 minutes was still there. The cleanup and removal of the fuel
                                >> > tank pickup tube screen seems to have addressed this in trying
                                >> > conditions on back to back days.
                                >> >  
                                >> > Hopes this clears up any rambling on my part.
                                >> >  
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> > gmuller22 <gmuller22@...> wrote:
                                >> >> John,
                                >> >>
                                >> >> While I'm glad to hear that your pants won't be falling down, I'm
                                >> >> still not clear as to what cleared up this intermittent engine
                                >> >> operation problem of yours. I think you said that the last thing
                                >> you
                                >> >> did was to change the filter thinking that the filter element had
                                >> >> absorbed water, yet you didn't indicate that there was any water in
                                >> >> the filter housing. As to the filter element absorbing water, I'm
                                >> >> doubtful of that since the filter is treated so that water
                                >> coalesces
                                >> >> on the surface of the filter so that it can drop down into the
                                >> >> filter's sump. Intermittent problems are always a pain to track
                                >> >> down, but fortunately you'll have all winter to ponder this problem
                                >> >> in surroundings that should be a bit more comfortable than those in
                                >> >> 25 kt. winds and 7+ foot seas.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> Gerard
                                >> >>
                                >> >> --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski
                                >> >> <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> > Gerard
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> > This may be true.
                                >> >> > But the Westerbeke filter which is downstream had fuel. When the
                                >> >> lift pump dies, the filter housing is dry.(had one fail before).
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> > When the lift pump goes, you are correcf that one loses revs.
                                >> >> They may come up a bit but then lose more revs before finally
                                >> dying.
                                >> >> > The thing, they do not refire. The symptom I was seeing was loss
                                >> >> of revs followed they the engine shutting down. But half an hour
                                >> >> later, it would fire up and run happily for some time.
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> > Being a typical New Englander "belt and suspenders" kind of a
                                >> >> guy, I carry a spare lift pump onboard "just in case" along with
                                >> >> spare filters, seals etc.
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> > Amazing Westebeke could voice concerns on the newer versions of
                                >> >> a pump they just got done cranking the price from $180 to almost
                                >> >> $300.
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> > gmuller22 <gmuller22@...> wrote:
                                >> >> > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski
                                >> >> > <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
                                >> >> > >
                                >> >> > > I replaced the lift pump 3 years ago. The new ones have a
                                >> simple
                                >> >> > screen on them that is reuseable( the old ones were paper). I had
                                >> >> > checked it, and it was perfectly clean.
                                >> >> > > The westerbeke filter looked clean, but being paper, I though
                                >> >> > maybe water had swelled it, so I had replaced that.
                                >> >> > >
                                >> >> > > Yesterday we had a blow come though and of course we were goign
                                >> >> > to race. 20-25 knts of wind, 7' seas outside the sound, MUCH
                                >> >> bigger
                                >> >> > on the entrances {funny, but not a single Donzi on the water, nor
                                >> >> a
                                >> >> > cuddy cabin cruiser make large wakes). We used the motor to get
                                >> to
                                >> >> > the course, and after the race was over. Again, the motor is
                                >> >> working
                                >> >> > perfectly now. The crew agreed the problem is now offically
                                >> >> resolved.
                                >> >> > >
                                >> >> > > When I had cleaned my tank, all I ever got was some water and
                                >> >> > some fine grains of dirt/metal shavings. And I checked all the
                                >> >> > corners.
                                >> >> > >
                                >> >> > > So I can now put the boat on the hard knowing the motor is all
                                >> >> > set for next season.
                                >> >> > >
                                >> >> > > If one's motor lose revs or die after hitting a wave and you
                                >> >> > know there is no water in the fuel, then check the pickup.
                                >> >> > > Easiest way to tell is after letting the motor set 20 mintues
                                >> >> > when you try to refire it.
                                >> >> > > - If it sounds like it is crapping razor blades, it is water.
                                >> >> > > - If it fire right up, more likely a blockage somewhere
                                >> (pickup,
                                >> >> > filter, line).
                                >> >> > > - If it still doesn't fire at all, the lift pump may starting
                                >> >> > to go and you should check the Westerbeke filter which is
                                >> >> downstream
                                >> >> > of the lift pump to ensure it has fuel..
                                >> >> > >
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> > John, I wouldn't necessarily take comfort from the fact that you
                                >> >> > changed the lift pump a few years ago. At least that was the view
                                >> >> of
                                >> >> > the Westerbeke design engineer I spoke to at a boat show a few
                                >> >> years
                                >> >> > back. While talking to him about another matter he brought up the
                                >> >> > subject of lift pumps. Basically, he said is that an inordinate
                                >> >> > number of these pumps were experiencing problems early in their
                                >> >> > lives. It wasn't so much a problem of "infant mortality" but
                                >> >> infant
                                >> >> > sickness. It seems to have been a problem of recent years since
                                >> >> when
                                >> >> > I asked him about mine (which predated this problem by years) he
                                >> >> > said that those didn't experience the problems that the recent
                                >> >> lift
                                >> >> > pumps had.
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> > Gerard
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> >
                                >> >> > ---------------------------------
                                >> >> > Do you Yahoo!?
                                >> >> > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
                                >> >> >
                                >> >>
                                >> >
                                >> > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and
                                >> 30+
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                                >>
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
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                                Neil Russell
                                10 Jordan Terrace
                                Wakefield MA 01880
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