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Re: [SabreSailboat] Better Pointing 30-3

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  • sabre32sailor
    when I first got my boat, I was fortunate to get club member who had won several j36 championships and no longer was racing his j-105. whenever he drove, he
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 8, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      when I first got my boat, I was fortunate to get club member who had won several j36 championships and no longer was racing his j-105.
       
      whenever he drove, he kept trying to point the sabre and we got our butts handed to us.
      On one really windy regatta we are doing 4 knots into the wind when a guy with a beater S2 goes flying by us out of control due to footing a bit and using the power to beat the waves into submission.
       
      I turned to Dick and said “Dick, this is not a Ferrari. It is more like a station wagon.  So beat on it like your dad’s  station wagon when you were a teenager and we will do just fine”.
      Short of lifting the rig and sliding a new boat underneath it, I suggest you do the same.
       
      john
       
      Sent from Windows Mail
       
      From: John Zeratsky
      Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎October‎ ‎7‎, ‎2013 ‎4‎:‎18‎ ‎PM
      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
       
       

      Pete - yep. I was just trying to add some detail. Your summary was much clearer.

      And no, my 38-2 doesn't point anything like a J105! We are fortunate as Sabre owners to have boats that sail quite well to windward, but a 75° tacking angle is not going to happen!


      On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
       

       

      We're in the same place. Get the most out of the jib, then trim the main so it works most efficiently.  As the sailing instructors say over and over again, "when in doubt, let it out." Also, if can get your 38II to match a J-105 upwind, please let me know the trick.


      To John H. - Any input from  34II, 36 or 38II owners will apply almost directly to your 30-3.  



      On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
       
      [Attachment(s) from John Zeratsky included below]

       

      Good points, Pete. 

      Easing the main would cause it to luff at the same point of sail as the headsail. It's worth doing, because it balances the boat better and uses the main more effectively. (When I'm sailing close-hauled on my boat, the 90% jib is trimmed in as far as possible against the shroud, but the main needs to be at least 20° off the centerline.)

      But that won't improve overall pointing ability, it will just make the boat sail better at its current angle (which I'm guessing is about 50° off the true wind). The limiting factor is probably the inability to trim the headsail closer to centerline. I made a small diagram to illustrate the difference (attached).

      To get back to the original poster — John, if your tacking angle is around 90–100° (meaning you're sailing 45–50° off the true wind), I wouldn't expect to get much better than that, unless you are able to change the sheeting angle (e.g. to a track that's further inboard, like on a J boat).

      — JZ


      On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
       

       

      John 
      Like you, I cruise a Sabre, and race a J (J30).  Fractional rigs are a whole 'nother animal.  I have been amazed at how little of my sail trim experience from  sailing masthead boats translates over to the J.  The J30's #3 uses inboard tracks that seem to be about a foot outside the mast.  It really is a blade. On the other hand when the wind picks up, our #1 backwinds about a third of the main (the J30 "speed bump").
      I really suspect that John's issue will be solved by freeing up the main.
      Pete


      On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:05 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
       

       

      What's your tacking angle?

      You might be maxed out based on the sheeting angle of the headsail. You can improve sail trim, rig tune, etc up to a point. But there are physical limitations of how narrow an angle you can sheet the sail to. On my 38-2, that's the limiting factor. It's instructive to see the contrast with the J-105 I race, where the jib can be trimmed in front of (inside) the shrouds. The sail is at a much tighter angle to the centerline, and thus the boat can point much higher.


      On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 7:18 PM, John Horr <lakeeffectbluff@...> wrote:
       

       

      This was my second season with my 30-3 and am quite happy with performance. The only complaint is doesn't seem to point as well as I had hoped. I'm hoping a little mast tune advice will help. I adjusted the stays using the owners manual and gave it a small amount of prebend in the top 1/3 of the mast. The main does great  but the headsail stalls well before the main. I have a new mylar #1 as well as a new dacron #2, and #3. It doesn't seem to matter which sail I am using the headsail stalls much sooner than the main. Genoa track position doesn't seem to improve, it really only leaves rig tuning as the culprit. Any thoughts from 30-3 owners would be very appreeciated. Thanks John  Parlor Car

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

    • lakeeffectbluff
      Thanks to all for the replies, I am going to try tightening the furler foil at the drum and see if that improves things. We are not sailing badly (1st across
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 9, 2013
      • 0 Attachment

        Thanks to all for the replies, I am going to try tightening the furler foil at the drum and see if that improves things. We are not sailing badly (1st across the line and 1st phrf out of 19 boats in a white sail a few weekends ago - 5-8 knots of wind) but I have owned a Pearson 30 and C&C 29-2 and definitely off by 5 or so degrees.  Thanks John



        ---In sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:

        when I first got my boat, I was fortunate to get club member who had won several j36 championships and no longer was racing his j-105.
         
        whenever he drove, he kept trying to point the sabre and we got our butts handed to us.
        On one really windy regatta we are doing 4 knots into the wind when a guy with a beater S2 goes flying by us out of control due to footing a bit and using the power to beat the waves into submission.
         
        I turned to Dick and said “Dick, this is not a Ferrari. It is more like a station wagon.  So beat on it like your dad’s  station wagon when you were a teenager and we will do just fine”.
        Short of lifting the rig and sliding a new boat underneath it, I suggest you do the same.
         
        john
         
        Sent from Windows Mail
         
        From: John Zeratsky
        Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎October‎ ‎7‎, ‎2013 ‎4‎:‎18‎ ‎PM
        To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
         
         
        Pete - yep. I was just trying to add some detail. Your summary was much clearer.

        And no, my 38-2 doesn't point anything like a J105! We are fortunate as Sabre owners to have boats that sail quite well to windward, but a 75° tacking angle is not going to happen!


        On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
         

         

        We're in the same place. Get the most out of the jib, then trim the main so it works most efficiently.  As the sailing instructors say over and over again, "when in doubt, let it out." Also, if can get your 38II to match a J-105 upwind, please let me know the trick.


        To John H. - Any input from  34II, 36 or 38II owners will apply almost directly to your 30-3.  



        On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
         
        [Attachment(s) from John Zeratsky included below]

         

        Good points, Pete. 

        Easing the main would cause it to luff at the same point of sail as the headsail. It's worth doing, because it balances the boat better and uses the main more effectively. (When I'm sailing close-hauled on my boat, the 90% jib is trimmed in as far as possible against the shroud, but the main needs to be at least 20° off the centerline.)

        But that won't improve overall pointing ability, it will just make the boat sail better at its current angle (which I'm guessing is about 50° off the true wind). The limiting factor is probably the inability to trim the headsail closer to centerline. I made a small diagram to illustrate the difference (attached).

        To get back to the original poster — John, if your tacking angle is around 90–100° (meaning you're sailing 45–50° off the true wind), I wouldn't expect to get much better than that, unless you are able to change the sheeting angle (e.g. to a track that's further inboard, like on a J boat).

        — JZ


        On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
         

         

        John 
        Like you, I cruise a Sabre, and race a J (J30).  Fractional rigs are a whole 'nother animal.  I have been amazed at how little of my sail trim experience from  sailing masthead boats translates over to the J.  The J30's #3 uses inboard tracks that seem to be about a foot outside the mast.  It really is a blade. On the other hand when the wind picks up, our #1 backwinds about a third of the main (the J30 "speed bump").
        I really suspect that John's issue will be solved by freeing up the main.
        Pete


        On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:05 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
         

         

        What's your tacking angle?

        You might be maxed out based on the sheeting angle of the headsail. You can improve sail trim, rig tune, etc up to a point. But there are physical limitations of how narrow an angle you can sheet the sail to. On my 38-2, that's the limiting factor. It's instructive to see the contrast with the J-105 I race, where the jib can be trimmed in front of (inside) the shrouds. The sail is at a much tighter angle to the centerline, and thus the boat can point much higher.


        On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 7:18 PM, John Horr <lakeeffectbluff@...> wrote:
         

         

        This was my second season with my 30-3 and am quite happy with performance. The only complaint is doesn't seem to point as well as I had hoped. I'm hoping a little mast tune advice will help. I adjusted the stays using the owners manual and gave it a small amount of prebend in the top 1/3 of the mast. The main does great  but the headsail stalls well before the main. I have a new mylar #1 as well as a new dacron #2, and #3. It doesn't seem to matter which sail I am using the headsail stalls much sooner than the main. Genoa track position doesn't seem to improve, it really only leaves rig tuning as the culprit. Any thoughts from 30-3 owners would be very appreeciated. Thanks John  Parlor Car

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

      • Peter Tollini
        John, If you re concerned about forestay sag, while going to windward, have someone go foreward and pull down a spin halyard or spare jib halyard to the furler
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 9, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          John,
          If you're concerned about forestay sag, while going to windward, have someone go foreward and pull down a spin halyard or spare jib halyard to the furler drum. That will give you a good idea of how much the forestay is sagging.  Adjust the forestay length at the tack, but tension it with the backstay so you don't change mast rake. You can set your aft lower shrouds to limit mast bend. 
          Dedekam's book gives clear step-by-step instructions for setting up your double spreader rig.
          Pete


          On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 10:12 AM, <lakeeffectbluff@...> wrote:
           

          Thanks to all for the replies, I am going to try tightening the furler foil at the drum and see if that improves things. We are not sailing badly (1st across the line and 1st phrf out of 19 boats in a white sail a few weekends ago - 5-8 knots of wind) but I have owned a Pearson 30 and C&C 29-2 and definitely off by 5 or so degrees.  Thanks John



          ---In sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:

          when I first got my boat, I was fortunate to get club member who had won several j36 championships and no longer was racing his j-105.
           
          whenever he drove, he kept trying to point the sabre and we got our butts handed to us.
          On one really windy regatta we are doing 4 knots into the wind when a guy with a beater S2 goes flying by us out of control due to footing a bit and using the power to beat the waves into submission.
           
          I turned to Dick and said “Dick, this is not a Ferrari. It is more like a station wagon.  So beat on it like your dad’s  station wagon when you were a teenager and we will do just fine”.
          Short of lifting the rig and sliding a new boat underneath it, I suggest you do the same.
           
          john
           
          Sent from Windows Mail
           
          From: John Zeratsky
          Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 4:18 PM
          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
           
           
          Pete - yep. I was just trying to add some detail. Your summary was much clearer.

          And no, my 38-2 doesn't point anything like a J105! We are fortunate as Sabre owners to have boats that sail quite well to windward, but a 75° tacking angle is not going to happen!


          On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
           

           

          We're in the same place. Get the most out of the jib, then trim the main so it works most efficiently.  As the sailing instructors say over and over again, "when in doubt, let it out." Also, if can get your 38II to match a J-105 upwind, please let me know the trick.


          To John H. - Any input from  34II, 36 or 38II owners will apply almost directly to your 30-3.  



          On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
           
          [Attachment(s) from John Zeratsky included below]

           

          Good points, Pete. 

          Easing the main would cause it to luff at the same point of sail as the headsail. It's worth doing, because it balances the boat better and uses the main more effectively. (When I'm sailing close-hauled on my boat, the 90% jib is trimmed in as far as possible against the shroud, but the main needs to be at least 20° off the centerline.)

          But that won't improve overall pointing ability, it will just make the boat sail better at its current angle (which I'm guessing is about 50° off the true wind). The limiting factor is probably the inability to trim the headsail closer to centerline. I made a small diagram to illustrate the difference (attached).

          To get back to the original poster — John, if your tacking angle is around 90–100° (meaning you're sailing 45–50° off the true wind), I wouldn't expect to get much better than that, unless you are able to change the sheeting angle (e.g. to a track that's further inboard, like on a J boat).

          — JZ


          On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
           

           

          John 
          Like you, I cruise a Sabre, and race a J (J30).  Fractional rigs are a whole 'nother animal.  I have been amazed at how little of my sail trim experience from  sailing masthead boats translates over to the J.  The J30's #3 uses inboard tracks that seem to be about a foot outside the mast.  It really is a blade. On the other hand when the wind picks up, our #1 backwinds about a third of the main (the J30 "speed bump").
          I really suspect that John's issue will be solved by freeing up the main.
          Pete


          On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:05 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
           

           

          What's your tacking angle?

          You might be maxed out based on the sheeting angle of the headsail. You can improve sail trim, rig tune, etc up to a point. But there are physical limitations of how narrow an angle you can sheet the sail to. On my 38-2, that's the limiting factor. It's instructive to see the contrast with the J-105 I race, where the jib can be trimmed in front of (inside) the shrouds. The sail is at a much tighter angle to the centerline, and thus the boat can point much higher.


          On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 7:18 PM, John Horr <lakeeffectbluff@...> wrote:
           

           

          This was my second season with my 30-3 and am quite happy with performance. The only complaint is doesn't seem to point as well as I had hoped. I'm hoping a little mast tune advice will help. I adjusted the stays using the owners manual and gave it a small amount of prebend in the top 1/3 of the mast. The main does great  but the headsail stalls well before the main. I have a new mylar #1 as well as a new dacron #2, and #3. It doesn't seem to matter which sail I am using the headsail stalls much sooner than the main. Genoa track position doesn't seem to improve, it really only leaves rig tuning as the culprit. Any thoughts from 30-3 owners would be very appreeciated. Thanks John  Parlor Car

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           

           


        • lakeeffectbluff
          Thanks Pete, I m heading out Friday afternoon and will try that. I suspect to much fore stay sag is the culprit John ... John, If you re concerned about
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 9, 2013
          • 0 Attachment

            Thanks Pete, I'm heading out Friday afternoon and will try that. I suspect to much fore stay sag is the culprit   John 



            ---In sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, <sabre30@...> wrote:

            John,
            If you're concerned about forestay sag, while going to windward, have someone go foreward and pull down a spin halyard or spare jib halyard to the furler drum. That will give you a good idea of how much the forestay is sagging.  Adjust the forestay length at the tack, but tension it with the backstay so you don't change mast rake. You can set your aft lower shrouds to limit mast bend. 
            Dedekam's book gives clear step-by-step instructions for setting up your double spreader rig.
            Pete


            On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 10:12 AM, <lakeeffectbluff@...> wrote:
             

            Thanks to all for the replies, I am going to try tightening the furler foil at the drum and see if that improves things. We are not sailing badly (1st across the line and 1st phrf out of 19 boats in a white sail a few weekends ago - 5-8 knots of wind) but I have owned a Pearson 30 and C&C 29-2 and definitely off by 5 or so degrees.  Thanks John



            ---In sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:

            when I first got my boat, I was fortunate to get club member who had won several j36 championships and no longer was racing his j-105.
             
            whenever he drove, he kept trying to point the sabre and we got our butts handed to us.
            On one really windy regatta we are doing 4 knots into the wind when a guy with a beater S2 goes flying by us out of control due to footing a bit and using the power to beat the waves into submission.
             
            I turned to Dick and said “Dick, this is not a Ferrari. It is more like a station wagon.  So beat on it like your dad’s  station wagon when you were a teenager and we will do just fine”.
            Short of lifting the rig and sliding a new boat underneath it, I suggest you do the same.
             
            john
             
            Sent from Windows Mail
             
            From: John Zeratsky
            Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 4:18 PM
            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
             
             
            Pete - yep. I was just trying to add some detail. Your summary was much clearer.

            And no, my 38-2 doesn't point anything like a J105! We are fortunate as Sabre owners to have boats that sail quite well to windward, but a 75° tacking angle is not going to happen!


            On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
             

             

            We're in the same place. Get the most out of the jib, then trim the main so it works most efficiently.  As the sailing instructors say over and over again, "when in doubt, let it out." Also, if can get your 38II to match a J-105 upwind, please let me know the trick.


            To John H. - Any input from  34II, 36 or 38II owners will apply almost directly to your 30-3.  



            On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
             
            [Attachment(s) from John Zeratsky included below]

             

            Good points, Pete. 

            Easing the main would cause it to luff at the same point of sail as the headsail. It's worth doing, because it balances the boat better and uses the main more effectively. (When I'm sailing close-hauled on my boat, the 90% jib is trimmed in as far as possible against the shroud, but the main needs to be at least 20° off the centerline.)

            But that won't improve overall pointing ability, it will just make the boat sail better at its current angle (which I'm guessing is about 50° off the true wind). The limiting factor is probably the inability to trim the headsail closer to centerline. I made a small diagram to illustrate the difference (attached).

            To get back to the original poster — John, if your tacking angle is around 90–100° (meaning you're sailing 45–50° off the true wind), I wouldn't expect to get much better than that, unless you are able to change the sheeting angle (e.g. to a track that's further inboard, like on a J boat).

            — JZ


            On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
             

             

            John 
            Like you, I cruise a Sabre, and race a J (J30).  Fractional rigs are a whole 'nother animal.  I have been amazed at how little of my sail trim experience from  sailing masthead boats translates over to the J.  The J30's #3 uses inboard tracks that seem to be about a foot outside the mast.  It really is a blade. On the other hand when the wind picks up, our #1 backwinds about a third of the main (the J30 "speed bump").
            I really suspect that John's issue will be solved by freeing up the main.
            Pete


            On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:05 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
             

             

            What's your tacking angle?

            You might be maxed out based on the sheeting angle of the headsail. You can improve sail trim, rig tune, etc up to a point. But there are physical limitations of how narrow an angle you can sheet the sail to. On my 38-2, that's the limiting factor. It's instructive to see the contrast with the J-105 I race, where the jib can be trimmed in front of (inside) the shrouds. The sail is at a much tighter angle to the centerline, and thus the boat can point much higher.


            On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 7:18 PM, John Horr <lakeeffectbluff@...> wrote:
             

             

            This was my second season with my 30-3 and am quite happy with performance. The only complaint is doesn't seem to point as well as I had hoped. I'm hoping a little mast tune advice will help. I adjusted the stays using the owners manual and gave it a small amount of prebend in the top 1/3 of the mast. The main does great  but the headsail stalls well before the main. I have a new mylar #1 as well as a new dacron #2, and #3. It doesn't seem to matter which sail I am using the headsail stalls much sooner than the main. Genoa track position doesn't seem to improve, it really only leaves rig tuning as the culprit. Any thoughts from 30-3 owners would be very appreeciated. Thanks John  Parlor Car

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

             


          • Peter Tollini
            Not to add extra cost, but if you don t have a backstay adjuster, it s a great addition, especially for a high aspect, double spreader masthead rig (ours).
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 9, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Not to add extra cost, but if you don't have a backstay adjuster, it's a great addition, especially for a high aspect, double spreader masthead rig (ours).  The 30-3 is about the biggest boat you can still do a mechanical adjuster without a split backstay.  Unfortunately, Harken doesn't seem to make the aesthetically spectacular mechanical adjuster that I have any more, only an expensive larger version, but they do have a smaller double action hydraulic adjuster. If tightening your backstay turnbuckle makes a difference, then you should consider an adjuster.
              A couple of turns on the adjuster when on the wind in a breeze makes Solace stand up a little more and point a little higher. In a chop, I can back off and lose some point but power through the waves with a more comfortable motion.

              Pete


              On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:43 PM, <lakeeffectbluff@...> wrote:
               

              Thanks Pete, I'm heading out Friday afternoon and will try that. I suspect to much fore stay sag is the culprit   John 



              ---In sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, <sabre30@...> wrote:

              John,
              If you're concerned about forestay sag, while going to windward, have someone go foreward and pull down a spin halyard or spare jib halyard to the furler drum. That will give you a good idea of how much the forestay is sagging.  Adjust the forestay length at the tack, but tension it with the backstay so you don't change mast rake. You can set your aft lower shrouds to limit mast bend. 
              Dedekam's book gives clear step-by-step instructions for setting up your double spreader rig.
              Pete


              On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 10:12 AM, <lakeeffectbluff@...> wrote:
               

              Thanks to all for the replies, I am going to try tightening the furler foil at the drum and see if that improves things. We are not sailing badly (1st across the line and 1st phrf out of 19 boats in a white sail a few weekends ago - 5-8 knots of wind) but I have owned a Pearson 30 and C&C 29-2 and definitely off by 5 or so degrees.  Thanks John



              ---In sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:

              when I first got my boat, I was fortunate to get club member who had won several j36 championships and no longer was racing his j-105.
               
              whenever he drove, he kept trying to point the sabre and we got our butts handed to us.
              On one really windy regatta we are doing 4 knots into the wind when a guy with a beater S2 goes flying by us out of control due to footing a bit and using the power to beat the waves into submission.
               
              I turned to Dick and said “Dick, this is not a Ferrari. It is more like a station wagon.  So beat on it like your dad’s  station wagon when you were a teenager and we will do just fine”.
              Short of lifting the rig and sliding a new boat underneath it, I suggest you do the same.
               
              john
               
              Sent from Windows Mail
               
              From: John Zeratsky
              Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 4:18 PM
              To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
               
               
              Pete - yep. I was just trying to add some detail. Your summary was much clearer.

              And no, my 38-2 doesn't point anything like a J105! We are fortunate as Sabre owners to have boats that sail quite well to windward, but a 75° tacking angle is not going to happen!


              On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
               

               

              We're in the same place. Get the most out of the jib, then trim the main so it works most efficiently.  As the sailing instructors say over and over again, "when in doubt, let it out." Also, if can get your 38II to match a J-105 upwind, please let me know the trick.


              To John H. - Any input from  34II, 36 or 38II owners will apply almost directly to your 30-3.  



              On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
               
              [Attachment(s) from John Zeratsky included below]

               

              Good points, Pete. 

              Easing the main would cause it to luff at the same point of sail as the headsail. It's worth doing, because it balances the boat better and uses the main more effectively. (When I'm sailing close-hauled on my boat, the 90% jib is trimmed in as far as possible against the shroud, but the main needs to be at least 20° off the centerline.)

              But that won't improve overall pointing ability, it will just make the boat sail better at its current angle (which I'm guessing is about 50° off the true wind). The limiting factor is probably the inability to trim the headsail closer to centerline. I made a small diagram to illustrate the difference (attached).

              To get back to the original poster — John, if your tacking angle is around 90–100° (meaning you're sailing 45–50° off the true wind), I wouldn't expect to get much better than that, unless you are able to change the sheeting angle (e.g. to a track that's further inboard, like on a J boat).

              — JZ


              On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
               

               

              John 
              Like you, I cruise a Sabre, and race a J (J30).  Fractional rigs are a whole 'nother animal.  I have been amazed at how little of my sail trim experience from  sailing masthead boats translates over to the J.  The J30's #3 uses inboard tracks that seem to be about a foot outside the mast.  It really is a blade. On the other hand when the wind picks up, our #1 backwinds about a third of the main (the J30 "speed bump").
              I really suspect that John's issue will be solved by freeing up the main.
              Pete


              On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:05 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
               

               

              What's your tacking angle?

              You might be maxed out based on the sheeting angle of the headsail. You can improve sail trim, rig tune, etc up to a point. But there are physical limitations of how narrow an angle you can sheet the sail to. On my 38-2, that's the limiting factor. It's instructive to see the contrast with the J-105 I race, where the jib can be trimmed in front of (inside) the shrouds. The sail is at a much tighter angle to the centerline, and thus the boat can point much higher.


              On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 7:18 PM, John Horr <lakeeffectbluff@...> wrote:
               

               

              This was my second season with my 30-3 and am quite happy with performance. The only complaint is doesn't seem to point as well as I had hoped. I'm hoping a little mast tune advice will help. I adjusted the stays using the owners manual and gave it a small amount of prebend in the top 1/3 of the mast. The main does great  but the headsail stalls well before the main. I have a new mylar #1 as well as a new dacron #2, and #3. It doesn't seem to matter which sail I am using the headsail stalls much sooner than the main. Genoa track position doesn't seem to improve, it really only leaves rig tuning as the culprit. Any thoughts from 30-3 owners would be very appreeciated. Thanks John  Parlor Car

               

               

               

               

               

               

               

               

               

               

               



            • sandusky_sabre2
              Like anything else getting a lot of little things right will help you point better. 1. Set up rig with forward lowers at 80% of uppers and aft lowers at about
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 9, 2013
              • 0 Attachment

                Like anything else getting a lot of little things right will help you point better.

                1. Set up rig with forward lowers at 80% of uppers and aft lowers at about 70% 

                2.  Your main should have a reasonably full entry.  Loose footed, and preferably a laminate that won't stretch when the wind picks up. Have at least an 8:1 outhaul so that you can flatten the lower part of the main easily.

                3. A proper cunningham is a necessity. Use it to control forward entry of main and to maintain halyard tension

                4. Backstay adjustment is a must have.  Don't bang it in too hard unless you are at the top end wind range of the headsail.

                5.  The cut of the genoa is critical.  I had several racing genoas over life of the S-28 I owned and there can be a huge difference in how they are cut.  Work with your sailmaker on this because it is critical. General rule of thumb is a full entry and a flat leech

                6.  The Sabre needs a lot a flow over the keel to make it work.  Work you boat up to speed before you get the genoa 6 inches off the spreader.

                7. Invest in a solid vang and a good traveler.  You can vang sheet the main when you need to depower.  You basically are sailing off the back third of the main when you vang hard and drop the traveler to leeward going up wind. Up in the lulls and down in the puffs.

                8. Get everything off the boat that isn't required by the racing rules and I mean everything including emptying the tanks and having a half load of fuel.

                9. Medium tech halyards that don't stretch do wonders when the wind is up. 10MM VPC will do nicely.  8MM V-100 for your jib halyard is even better

                10. In the off season, fair your rudder and make sure the leading edge of your hull and keel are very fair.

                11. Folding prop is a must.

                12. In light air put anything like crew gear and sails in the V-berth before you leave the dock,  heavy air, everything including the anchor in the quarterberth

                13. Tack less- try doing less tacks on the weather leg to keep your speed and pointing up.

                14.Budget $2000 for a laminate main and $2400 for a mid grade laminate headsail. After you have spent $4400 get that sailmaker to come out with you and tune up the sails.  It is likely he will have some minor adjustments to the luff curve of the main at a minimum.

                15. After you have done all this dust off a place on your mantle for the pickle dishes you will be winning.



                ---In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, <sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                when I first got my boat, I was fortunate to get club member who had won several j36 championships and no longer was racing his j-105.
                 
                whenever he drove, he kept trying to point the sabre and we got our butts handed to us.
                On one really windy regatta we are doing 4 knots into the wind when a guy with a beater S2 goes flying by us out of control due to footing a bit and using the power to beat the waves into submission.
                 
                I turned to Dick and said “Dick, this is not a Ferrari. It is more like a station wagon.  So beat on it like your dad’s  station wagon when you were a teenager and we will do just fine”.
                Short of lifting the rig and sliding a new boat underneath it, I suggest you do the same.
                 
                john
                 
                Sent from Windows Mail
                 
                From: John Zeratsky
                Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎October‎ ‎7‎, ‎2013 ‎4‎:‎18‎ ‎PM
                To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                 
                 
                Pete - yep. I was just trying to add some detail. Your summary was much clearer.

                And no, my 38-2 doesn't point anything like a J105! We are fortunate as Sabre owners to have boats that sail quite well to windward, but a 75° tacking angle is not going to happen!


                On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
                 

                 

                We're in the same place. Get the most out of the jib, then trim the main so it works most efficiently.  As the sailing instructors say over and over again, "when in doubt, let it out." Also, if can get your 38II to match a J-105 upwind, please let me know the trick.


                To John H. - Any input from  34II, 36 or 38II owners will apply almost directly to your 30-3.  



                On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
                 
                [Attachment(s) from John Zeratsky included below]

                 

                Good points, Pete. 

                Easing the main would cause it to luff at the same point of sail as the headsail. It's worth doing, because it balances the boat better and uses the main more effectively. (When I'm sailing close-hauled on my boat, the 90% jib is trimmed in as far as possible against the shroud, but the main needs to be at least 20° off the centerline.)

                But that won't improve overall pointing ability, it will just make the boat sail better at its current angle (which I'm guessing is about 50° off the true wind). The limiting factor is probably the inability to trim the headsail closer to centerline. I made a small diagram to illustrate the difference (attached).

                To get back to the original poster — John, if your tacking angle is around 90–100° (meaning you're sailing 45–50° off the true wind), I wouldn't expect to get much better than that, unless you are able to change the sheeting angle (e.g. to a track that's further inboard, like on a J boat).

                — JZ


                On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:
                 

                 

                John 
                Like you, I cruise a Sabre, and race a J (J30).  Fractional rigs are a whole 'nother animal.  I have been amazed at how little of my sail trim experience from  sailing masthead boats translates over to the J.  The J30's #3 uses inboard tracks that seem to be about a foot outside the mast.  It really is a blade. On the other hand when the wind picks up, our #1 backwinds about a third of the main (the J30 "speed bump").
                I really suspect that John's issue will be solved by freeing up the main.
                Pete


                On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:05 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:
                 

                 

                What's your tacking angle?

                You might be maxed out based on the sheeting angle of the headsail. You can improve sail trim, rig tune, etc up to a point. But there are physical limitations of how narrow an angle you can sheet the sail to. On my 38-2, that's the limiting factor. It's instructive to see the contrast with the J-105 I race, where the jib can be trimmed in front of (inside) the shrouds. The sail is at a much tighter angle to the centerline, and thus the boat can point much higher.


                On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 7:18 PM, John Horr <lakeeffectbluff@...> wrote:
                 

                 

                This was my second season with my 30-3 and am quite happy with performance. The only complaint is doesn't seem to point as well as I had hoped. I'm hoping a little mast tune advice will help. I adjusted the stays using the owners manual and gave it a small amount of prebend in the top 1/3 of the mast. The main does great  but the headsail stalls well before the main. I have a new mylar #1 as well as a new dacron #2, and #3. It doesn't seem to matter which sail I am using the headsail stalls much sooner than the main. Genoa track position doesn't seem to improve, it really only leaves rig tuning as the culprit. Any thoughts from 30-3 owners would be very appreeciated. Thanks John  Parlor Car

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

              • Ken Jenkins
                IÆm curious about the reasoning behind Item 12. When I raced Tanzers we always did well getting as much weight out of the ends of the boat to decrease hobby
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 11, 2013
                • 0 Attachment

                  I’m curious about the reasoning behind Item 12. When I raced Tanzers we always did well getting as much weight out of the ends of the boat to decrease hobby horsing. Putting weight in the vee berth in light air seems counter intuitive to me I would have thought amidships was better, but I never raced Sabres.

                  Thanks, Ken

                   


                  From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of sandusky_sabre@...
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 6:37 PM
                  To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: Re: [SabreSailboat] Better Pointing 30-3

                   

                   

                  Like anything else getting a lot of little things right will help you point better.

                  1. Set up rig with forward lowers at 80% of uppers and aft lowers at about 70% 

                  2.  Your main should have a reasonably full entry.  Loose footed, and preferably a laminate that won't stretch when the wind picks up. Have at least an 8:1 outhaul so that you can flatten the lower part of the main easily.

                  3. A proper cunningham is a necessity. Use it to control forward entry of main and to maintain halyard tension

                  4. Backstay adjustment is a must have.  Don't bang it in too hard unless you are at the top end wind range of the headsail.

                  5.  The cut of the genoa is critical.  I had several racing genoas over life of the S-28 I owned and there can be a huge difference in how they are cut.  Work with your sailmaker on this because it is critical. General rule of thumb is a full entry and a flat leech

                  6.  The Sabre needs a lot a flow over the keel to make it work.  Work you boat up to speed before you get the genoa 6 inches off the spreader.

                  7. Invest in a solid vang and a good traveler.  You can vang sheet the main when you need to depower.  You basically are sailing off the back third of the main when you vang hard and drop the traveler to leeward going up wind. Up in the lulls and down in the puffs.

                  8. Get everything off the boat that isn't required by the racing rules and I mean everything including emptying the tanks and having a half load of fuel.

                  9. Medium tech halyards that don't stretch do wonders when the wind is up. 10MM VPC will do nicely.  8MM V-100 for your jib halyard is even better

                  10. In the off season, fair your rudder and make sure the leading edge of your hull and keel are very fair.

                  11. Folding prop is a must.

                  12. In light air put anything like crew gear and sails in the V-berth before you leave the dock,  heavy air, everything including the anchor in the quarterberth

                  13. Tack less- try doing less tacks on the weather leg to keep your speed and pointing up.

                  14.Budget $2000 for a laminate main and $2400 for a mid grade laminate headsail. After you have spent $4400 get that sailmaker to come out with you and tune up the sails.  It is likely he will have some minor adjustments to the luff curve of the main at a minimum.

                  15. After you have done all this dust off a place on your mantle for the pickle dishes you will be winning.



                  ---In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com , <sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  when I first got my boat, I was fortunate to get club member who had won several j36 championships and no longer was racing his j-105.

                   

                  whenever he drove, he kept trying to point the sabre and we got our butts handed to us.

                  On one really windy regatta we are doing 4 knots into the wind when a guy with a beater S2 goes flying by us out of control due to footing a bit and using the power to beat the waves into submission.

                   

                  I turned to Dick and said “Dick, this is not a Ferrari. It is more like a station wagon.  So beat on it like your dad’s  station wagon when you were a teenager and we will do just fine”.

                  Short of lifting the rig and sliding a new boat underneath it, I suggest you do the same.

                   

                  john

                   

                  Sent from Windows Mail

                   

                  From: John Zeratsky
                  Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎October‎ ‎7‎, ‎2013 ‎4‎:‎18‎ ‎PM
                  To:  Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com

                   

                   

                  Pete - yep. I was just trying to add some detail. Your summary was much clearer.

                   

                  And no, my 38-2 doesn't point anything like a J105! We are fortunate as Sabre owners to have boats that sail quite well to windward, but a 75° tacking angle is not going to happen!

                   

                  On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:

                   

                   

                  We're in the same place. Get the most out of the jib, then trim the main so it works most efficiently.  As the sailing instructors say over and over again, "when in doubt, let it out." Also, if can get your 38II to match a J-105 upwind, please let me know the trick.

                   

                   

                  To John H. - Any input from  34II, 36 or 38II owners will apply almost directly to your 30-3.  

                   

                   

                  On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:

                   

                  [Attachment(s) from John Zeratsky included below]

                   

                  Good points, Pete. 

                   

                  Easing the main would cause it to luff at the same point of sail as the headsail. It's worth doing, because it balances the boat better and uses the main more effectively. (When I'm sailing close-hauled on my boat, the 90% jib is trimmed in as far as possible against the shroud, but the main needs to be at least 20° off the centerline.)

                   

                  But that won't improve overall pointing ability, it will just make the boat sail better at its current angle (which I'm guessing is about 50° off the true wind). The limiting factor is probably the inability to trim the headsail closer to centerline. I made a small diagram to illustrate the difference (attached).

                   

                  To get back to the original poster — John, if your tacking angle is around 90–100° (meaning you're sailing 45–50° off the true wind), I wouldn't expect to get much better than that, unless you are able to change the sheeting angle (e.g. to a track that's further inboard, like on a J boat).

                   

                  — JZ

                   

                  On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:

                   

                   

                  John 

                  Like you, I cruise a Sabre, and race a J (J30).  Fractional rigs are a whole 'nother animal.  I have been amazed at how little of my sail trim experience from  sailing masthead boats translates over to the J.  The J30's #3 uses inboard tracks that seem to be about a foot outside the mast.  It really is a blade. On the other hand when the wind picks up, our #1 backwinds about a third of the main (the J30 "speed bump").

                  I really suspect that John's issue will be solved by freeing up the main.

                  Pete

                   

                  On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:05 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:

                   

                   

                  What's your tacking angle?

                   

                  You might be maxed out based on the sheeting angle of the headsail. You can improve sail trim, rig tune, etc up to a point. But there are physical limitations of how narrow an angle you can sheet the sail to. On my 38-2, that's the limiting factor. It's instructive to see the contrast with the J-105 I race, where the jib can be trimmed in front of (inside) the shrouds. The sail is at a much tighter angle to the centerline, and thus the boat can point much higher.

                   

                  On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 7:18 PM, John Horr <lakeeffectbluff@...> wrote:

                   

                   

                  This was my second season with my 30-3 and am quite happy with performance. The only complaint is doesn't seem to point as well as I had hoped. I'm hoping a little mast tune advice will help. I adjusted the stays using the owners manual and gave it a small amount of prebend in the top 1/3 of the mast. The main does great  but the headsail stalls well before the main. I have a new mylar #1 as well as a new dacron #2, and #3. It doesn't seem to matter which sail I am using the headsail stalls much sooner than the main. Genoa track position doesn't seem to improve, it really only leaves rig tuning as the culprit. Any thoughts from 30-3 owners would be very appreeciated. Thanks John  Parlor Car

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                • John Kalinowski
                  Putting the bow down can help to make it work like a minikeel to go to weather better (think canards on ac boats oh 90s) . On a saber with fat bow it will no
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 13, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Putting the bow down can help to make it work like a minikeel to go to weather better (think canards on ac boats oh 90s) .  On a saber with fat bow it will no do much

                    It will however pull that fat stern out of the water to reduce drag

                    I have 2 inclinometers on my boat. 1 for sail angle and the other for for/aft angle.  We are only talking a couple degrees here so the meter trumps the eye

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Oct 11, 2013, at 11:16 AM, "Ken Jenkins" <kjenk3@...> wrote:

                     

                    I’m curious about the reasoning behind Item 12. When I raced Tanzers we always did well getting as much weight out of the ends of the boat to decrease hobby horsing. Putting weight in the vee berth in light air seems counter intuitive to me I would have thought amidships was better, but I never raced Sabres.

                    Thanks, Ken

                     


                    From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of sandusky_sabre@...
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 6:37 PM
                    To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: Re: [SabreSailboat] Better Pointing 30-3

                     

                     

                    Like anything else getting a lot of little things right will help you point better.

                    1. Set up rig with forward lowers at 80% of uppers and aft lowers at about 70% 

                    2.  Your main should have a reasonably full entry.  Loose footed, and preferably a laminate that won't stretch when the wind picks up. Have at least an 8:1 outhaul so that you can flatten the lower part of the main easily.

                    3. A proper cunningham is a necessity. Use it to control forward entry of main and to maintain halyard tension

                    4. Backstay adjustment is a must have.  Don't bang it in too hard unless you are at the top end wind range of the headsail.

                    5.  The cut of the genoa is critical.  I had several racing genoas over life of the S-28 I owned and there can be a huge difference in how they are cut.  Work with your sailmaker on this because it is critical. General rule of thumb is a full entry and a flat leech

                    6.  The Sabre needs a lot a flow over the keel to make it work.  Work you boat up to speed before you get the genoa 6 inches off the spreader.

                    7. Invest in a solid vang and a good traveler.  You can vang sheet the main when you need to depower.  You basically are sailing off the back third of the main when you vang hard and drop the traveler to leeward going up wind. Up in the lulls and down in the puffs.

                    8. Get everything off the boat that isn't required by the racing rules and I mean everything including emptying the tanks and having a half load of fuel.

                    9. Medium tech halyards that don't stretch do wonders when the wind is up. 10MM VPC will do nicely.  8MM V-100 for your jib halyard is even better

                    10. In the off season, fair your rudder and make sure the leading edge of your hull and keel are very fair.

                    11. Folding prop is a must.

                    12. In light air put anything like crew gear and sails in the V-berth before you leave the dock,  heavy air, everything including the anchor in the quarterberth

                    13. Tack less- try doing less tacks on the weather leg to keep your speed and pointing up.

                    14.Budget $2000 for a laminate main and $2400 for a mid grade laminate headsail. After you have spent $4400 get that sailmaker to come out with you and tune up the sails.  It is likely he will have some minor adjustments to the luff curve of the main at a minimum.

                    15. After you have done all this dust off a place on your mantle for the pickle dishes you will be winning.



                    ---In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com , <sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                    when I first got my boat, I was fortunate to get club member who had won several j36 championships and no longer was racing his j-105.

                     

                    whenever he drove, he kept trying to point the sabre and we got our butts handed to us.

                    On one really windy regatta we are doing 4 knots into the wind when a guy with a beater S2 goes flying by us out of control due to footing a bit and using the power to beat the waves into submission.

                     

                    I turned to Dick and said “Dick, this is not a Ferrari. It is more like a station wagon.  So beat on it like your dad’s  station wagon when you were a teenager and we will do just fine”.

                    Short of lifting the rig and sliding a new boat underneath it, I suggest you do the same.

                     

                    john

                     

                    Sent from Windows Mail

                     

                    From: John Zeratsky
                    Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎October‎ ‎7‎, ‎2013 ‎4‎:‎18‎ ‎PM
                    To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com

                     

                     

                    Pete - yep. I was just trying to add some detail. Your summary was much clearer.

                     

                    And no, my 38-2 doesn't point anything like a J105! We are fortunate as Sabre owners to have boats that sail quite well to windward, but a 75° tacking angle is not going to happen!

                     

                    On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Peter Tollini <sabre30@...> wrote:

                     

                     

                    We're in the same place. Get the most out of the jib, then trim the main so it works most efficiently.  As the sailing instructors say over and over again, "when in doubt, let it out." Also, if can get your 38II to match a J-105 upwind, please let me know the trick.

                     

                     

                    To John H. - Any input from  34II, 36 or 38II owners will apply almost directly to your 30-3.  

                     

                     

                    On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, John Zeratsky <john@...> wrote:

                     

                    [Attachment(s) from John Zeratsky included below]

                     

                    Good points, Pete. 

                     

                    Easing the main would cause it to luff at the same point of sail as the headsail. It's worth doing, because it balances the boat better and uses the main more effectively. (When I'm sailing close-hauled on my boat, the 90% jib is trimmed in as far as possible against the shroud, but the main needs to be at least 20° off the centerline.)

                     

                    But that won't improve overall pointing ability, it will just make the boat sail better at its current angle (which I'm guessing is about 50° off the true wind). The limiting factor is probably the inability to trim the headsail closer to centerline. I made a small diagram to illustrate the difference (attached).

                     

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