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Re: sabre 34 mk1 mast wobble

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  • rssimons@snet.net
    Thanks, thats really helpfull, i will find a gauge and do some checking...
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 29, 2013
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      Thanks, thats really helpfull, i will find a gauge and do some checking...

      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "rssimons@..." <rssimons@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi I have a mk1 with a single spreader and when motoring into a chop the mast seems to move back and forth at the spreaders,its a bit disconcerting. I tried tightening the lower stays but does not seem much better. thanks for you help Richard
      >
    • sailor11767
      Upper shroud tension is pretty easy, especially on a cruising boat. Simply tighten until when heeled well (20-25 degrees) your leeward uppers are somewhat
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 31, 2013
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        Upper shroud tension is pretty easy, especially on a cruising boat. Simply tighten until when heeled well (20-25 degrees) your leeward uppers are somewhat loose (not floppy, but essentially no tension). Any more than that doesn't help any.

        Lowers are a whole 'nother problem. And backstay/forestay is voodoo magic.

        Harry
        Analysis
        '79 S34-I #063
        Mill Creek, Annapolis

        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Dan Trainor <dptrainor@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Richard,
        >
        > I am thinking (a guess without actually being on your deck) that the rig
        > may be over tight. Especially the Upper Cap shrouds. When over tight, it
        > tends to set up what Brian Toss calls a "spaghetti" tune. Imagine a strand
        > of uncooked spaghetti with your finger pushing down on it, it makes for an
        > unstable situation due to over compression (to some degree). Soooo, what
        > I would do is loosen all wires and build up the tension gradually. First
        > with lowers to establish a base foundation, then tighten uppers again
        > (without over tightening). Try to make it as loose as you can within
        > reason. Keeping Mast straight vertical by using the halyard as a measuring
        > stick. And also of course sighting up the mast track to determine if upper
        > mast is bending at top. If mast is straight in those two respects and
        > wires are loose and not over tight, then your good. But the trick to
        > address this kind of mast pumping is to loosen wire tension (not tighten)
        > such that the mast can breath rather than being over compressed and
        > unstable like. Again, not being there and not knowing what your wire
        > tensions are, I can only speculate. For a reference with Loos Gauge, my
        > tensions are below. But your mileage may very. Also, be sure to tighten
        > forward lowers first (tighter than aft lowers) as you build the lower
        > foundation such that when you later tighten your backstay, you can form a
        > nice pre-bend. The pre-bend (if caps are not too tight) also can
        > significantly improve your pumping issue. Hope that made sense. Easier to
        > show you, than to describe it. Hope this gives you some thoughts to work
        > with.
        >
        > dan Sabre32
        >
        >
        > * Wire PT-2 Model B*
        >
        > *Cap Shrouds 9/32 – 42-42*
        >
        > *Forward Lowers 1/4 - 36-36*
        >
        > *Aft Lowers 1/4 - 33-33*
        >
        > *Back Stay 9/32 - 40 *
        >
        >
        > On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 5:35 PM, rssimons@... <rssimons@...>wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi I have a mk1 with a single spreader and when motoring into a chop the
        > > mast seems to move back and forth at the spreaders,its a bit disconcerting.
        > > I tried tightening the lower stays but does not seem much better. thanks
        > > for you help Richard
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Dan
        >
      • Daniel Trainor
        Yes. The dynamic tuning under sail. Sent from my iPhone ... Yes. The dynamic tuning under sail. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 31, 2013, at 8:40 PM, sailor11767
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 1, 2013
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          Yes. The dynamic tuning under sail.

          Sent from my iPhone

          On Aug 31, 2013, at 8:40 PM, "sailor11767" <sailor11767@...> wrote:

           

          Upper shroud tension is pretty easy, especially on a cruising boat. Simply tighten until when heeled well (20-25 degrees) your leeward uppers are somewhat loose (not floppy, but essentially no tension). Any more than that doesn't help any.

          Lowers are a whole 'nother problem. And backstay/forestay is voodoo magic.

          Harry
          Analysis
          '79 S34-I #063
          Mill Creek, Annapolis

          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Dan Trainor <dptrainor@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Richard,
          >
          > I am thinking (a guess without actually being on your deck) that the rig
          > may be over tight. Especially the Upper Cap shrouds. When over tight, it
          > tends to set up what Brian Toss calls a "spaghetti" tune. Imagine a strand
          > of uncooked spaghetti with your finger pushing down on it, it makes for an
          > unstable situation due to over compression (to some degree). Soooo, what
          > I would do is loosen all wires and build up the tension gradually. First
          > with lowers to establish a base foundation, then tighten uppers again
          > (without over tightening). Try to make it as loose as you can within
          > reason. Keeping Mast straight vertical by using the halyard as a measuring
          > stick. And also of course sighting up the mast track to determine if upper
          > mast is bending at top. If mast is straight in those two respects and
          > wires are loose and not over tight, then your good. But the trick to
          > address this kind of mast pumping is to loosen wire tension (not tighten)
          > such that the mast can breath rather than being over compressed and
          > unstable like. Again, not being there and not knowing what your wire
          > tensions are, I can only speculate. For a reference with Loos Gauge, my
          > tensions are below. But your mileage may very. Also, be sure to tighten
          > forward lowers first (tighter than aft lowers) as you build the lower
          > foundation such that when you later tighten your backstay, you can form a
          > nice pre-bend. The pre-bend (if caps are not too tight) also can
          > significantly improve your pumping issue. Hope that made sense. Easier to
          > show you, than to describe it. Hope this gives you some thoughts to work
          > with.
          >
          > dan Sabre32
          >
          >
          > * Wire PT-2 Model B*
          >
          > *Cap Shrouds 9/32 – 42-42*
          >
          > *Forward Lowers 1/4 - 36-36*
          >
          > *Aft Lowers 1/4 - 33-33*
          >
          > *Back Stay 9/32 - 40 *
          >
          >
          > On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 5:35 PM, rssimons@... <rssimons@...>wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi I have a mk1 with a single spreader and when motoring into a chop the
          > > mast seems to move back and forth at the spreaders,its a bit disconcerting.
          > > I tried tightening the lower stays but does not seem much better. thanks
          > > for you help Richard
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Dan
          >

        • rssimons@snet.net
          ... I checked the tension in the uppers and they were about 45 so I tried loosening them, but that made them too slack when heeling, so i reset them probably a
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 2, 2013
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            >
            I checked the tension in the uppers and they were about 45 so I tried loosening them, but that made them too slack when heeling, so i reset them probably a bit tighter than before and will try that. thanks for the ideas. Richard
          • smofishlaw
            The 34MK2 manual, Section 13, has instructions for adjusting that rig-albeit a double spreader rig-which has some suggestions about balancing the lowers
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 3, 2013
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              The 34MK2 manual, Section 13, has instructions for adjusting that rig-albeit a double spreader rig-which has some suggestions about balancing the lowers shrouds to prevent pounding in a seaway.  I emailed it to you as well. I think the basic principles are applicable to your rig.



              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, <sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              >
              I checked the tension in the uppers and they were about 45 so I tried loosening them, but that made them too slack when heeling, so i reset them probably a bit tighter than before and will try that. thanks for the ideas. Richard
            • William Kellett
              Last spring (2013?) there was an exchange of ideas here on rig tensions for tuning a Sabre 20 MK III. The suggested tensions were provided. Unfortunately I
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 25, 2014
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                Last spring (2013?) there was an exchange of ideas here on rig tensions for tuning a Sabre 20 MK III.  The suggested tensions were provided.  Unfortunately I lost my copy and now cannot find the reference with a search.  Do you have any suggestions about who and when that info was shown here?  If yes I would appreciate the reference.

                 

                Bill

                S28 MK III #585

                 

                From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kalinowski
                Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:13 AM
                To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] sabre 34 mk1 mast wobble

                 

                 

                +1. 

                Get or borrow a Loos gauge

                 

                And read sail and rig tuning by ivar dedekam

                Sent from my iPhone


                On Aug 28, 2013, at 7:37 PM, Dan Trainor <dptrainor@...> wrote:

                 

                Hello Richard,

                 

                I am thinking (a guess without actually being on your deck) that the rig may be over tight.  Especially the Upper Cap shrouds.  When over tight, it tends to set up what Brian Toss calls a "spaghetti" tune.  Imagine a strand of uncooked spaghetti with your finger pushing down on it, it makes for an unstable situation due to over compression (to some degree).   Soooo, what I would do is loosen all wires and build up the tension gradually.  First with lowers to establish a base foundation, then tighten uppers again (without over tightening).  Try to make it as loose as you can within reason. Keeping Mast straight vertical by using the halyard as a measuring stick.  And also of course sighting up the mast track to determine if upper mast is bending at top.  If mast is straight in those two respects and wires are loose and not over tight, then your good.  But the trick to address this kind of mast pumping is to loosen wire tension (not tighten) such that the mast can breath rather than being over compressed and unstable like.  Again, not being there and not knowing what your wire tensions are, I can only speculate.  For a reference with Loos Gauge, my tensions are below.  But your mileage may very.  Also, be sure to tighten forward lowers first (tighter than aft lowers) as you build the lower foundation such that when you later tighten your backstay, you can form a nice pre-bend.  The pre-bend (if caps are not too tight) also can significantly improve your pumping issue.  Hope that made sense.  Easier to show you, than to describe it.  Hope this gives you some thoughts to work with.  

                 

                dan Sabre32

                 

                 

                                  Wire     PT-2    Model B

                Cap Shrouds    9/32 – 42-42

                Forward Lowers 1/4  - 36-36

                Aft Lowers     1/4  - 33-33

                Back Stay      9/32 -  40   

                 

                On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 5:35 PM, rssimons@... <rssimons@...> wrote:

                 

                Hi I have a mk1 with a single spreader and when motoring into a chop the mast seems to move back and forth at the spreaders,its a bit disconcerting. I tried tightening the lower stays but does not seem much better. thanks for you help Richard



                 

                --
                Dan

              • Richard Coerse
                Bill, I am confused! You have a subject line in your post of /*sabre 34 mk1*/ mast wobble and you are asking about rig tensions on a */Sabre 20/* /*MK
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 25, 2014
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                  Bill,
                  I am confused!  You have a subject line in your post of "sabre 34 mk1 mast wobble" and you are asking about rig tensions on a
                  "Sabre 20 MK III".  No such boat was ever built by Sabre to my knowledge and you signed off as a S28 MKIII owner.  Which boat are you wanting tuning information for?
                  Dick Coerse
                  "Early Light"
                  S-34 MK I



                  William Kellett wrote:
                   

                  Last spring (2013?) there was an exchange of ideas here on rig tensions for tuning a .  The suggested tensions were provided.  Unfortunately I lost my copy and now cannot find the reference with a search.  Do you have any suggestions about who and when that info was shown here?  If yes I would appreciate the reference.

                   

                  Bill

                  S28 MK III #585

                   

                  From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Kalinowski
                  Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:13 AM
                  To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] sabre 34 mk1 mast wobble

                   

                   

                  +1. 

                  Get or borrow a Loos gauge

                   

                  And read sail and rig tuning by ivar dedekam

                  Sent from my iPhone


                  On Aug 28, 2013, at 7:37 PM, Dan Trainor <dptrainor@...> wrote:

                   

                  Hello Richard,

                   

                  I am thinking (a guess without actually being on your deck) that the rig may be over tight.  Especially the Upper Cap shrouds.  When over tight, it tends to set up what Brian Toss calls a "spaghetti" tune.  Imagine a strand of uncooked spaghetti with your finger pushing down on it, it makes for an unstable situation due to over compression (to some degree).   Soooo, what I would do is loosen all wires and build up the tension gradually.  First with lowers to establish a base foundation, then tighten uppers again (without over tightening).  Try to make it as loose as you can within reason. Keeping Mast straight vertical by using the halyard as a measuring stick.  And also of course sighting up the mast track to determine if upper mast is bending at top.  If mast is straight in those two respects and wires are loose and not over tight, then your good.  But the trick to address this kind of mast pumping is to loosen wire tension (not tighten) such that the mast can breath rather than being over compressed and unstable like.  Again, not being there and not knowing what your wire tensions are, I can only speculate.  For a reference with Loos Gauge, my tensions are below.  But your mileage may very.  Also, be sure to tighten forward lowers first (tighter than aft lowers) as you build the lower foundation such that when you later tighten your backstay, you can form a nice pre-bend.  The pre-bend (if caps are not too tight) also can significantly improve your pumping issue.  Hope that made sense.  Easier to show you, than to describe it.  Hope this gives you some thoughts to work with.  

                   

                  dan Sabre32

                   

                   

                                    Wire     PT-2    Model B

                  Cap Shrouds    9/32 – 42-42

                  Forward Lowers 1/4  - 36-36

                  Aft Lowers     1/4  - 33-33

                  Back Stay      9/32 -  40   

                   

                  On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 5:35 PM, rssimons@... <rssimons@...> wrote:

                   

                  Hi I have a mk1 with a single spreader and when motoring into a chop the mast seems to move back and forth at the spreaders,its a bit disconcerting. I tried tightening the lower stays but does not seem much better. thanks for you help Richard



                   

                  --
                  Dan


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