Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SabreSailboat] Bad luck, or bad mechanic?

Expand Messages
  • Allison Lehman
    Mike do you know if the diodes were blown on the alternator? If that was the case the charterer probably did it by accident. They probably turned the Perko
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 15, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Mike do you know if the diodes were blown on the alternator?  If that was the case the charterer probably did it by accident.  They probably turned the Perko switch off while the engine was running.  If this is the case you can't blame the rebuild.

      Allison

      Sent from my iPad

      On Jul 15, 2013, at 7:09 PM, mhrutstein <mhrutstein@...> wrote:

       

      Interested in your opinions here.

      I chartered my 1984 Sabre 38 to a couple this past week. Handed over the boat on Saturday, all systems go. Charterer took it down to Boston and spent the night on a mooring. Woke up and could not start the W33 engine. Unfortunately, this was Sunday, so it was 1:30 before I could get a mechanic out to the boat. Four hours later the mechanic decided it was that 20A circuit on the engine and a new circuit would be the fix.

      The mechanic showed up Monday AM with the new circuit breaker, put it in, but the circuit kept blowing. What was blowing it? Suspected the fuel pump. Two hours round trip to obtain a new fuel pump, but then before installing it, the mechanic realized the fuel pump was not the problem and next settled on the alternator. Bad alternator was blowing the circuit.

      At this point (3:30 Monday afternoon) the charter party walked, receiving a full refund.

      Meanwhile, the mechanic went and got a new alternator. Engine started, problem solved. It's now 7 PM on Monday.

      ------> The bad alternator was rebuilt this spring!

      Questions:

      Anyone else experience a similar problem?

      Should this problem have taken 13 hours to diagnose and fix?

      Charterer while trying to troubleshoot noticed significant corrosion on the back of the box (I assume he meant the box in which contains the ignition and glow-plug and start buttons). Anyone have experience replacing this?

      Mike
      S/V Treasure
      Salem, MA

    • Mark Carlson
      Another good reason to have a split charging system where house and engine battery banks are separate. We use the balmar duo charge and there are others
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 16, 2013
      Another good reason to have a split charging system where house and engine battery banks are separate.

      We use the balmar duo charge and there are others devices  out there that do the same, thing.

      The alternator has a direct fused hook up to the house bank. No matter what grand kids, crew  or charterers do to the switches, the alternator allways has a live voltage to sense and the diodes are safe.

      The start battery gets charged after the house bank is fully charged.

      The attached pdf has a good diagram on how to set it up.

      We use two battery bank switches where we can combine both banks if needed
      --

      Best Regards,
       
      Mark Calrson
      s/v Stargazer Sabre 34 14

    • josrulz_2001
      We have a similar set-up, although using a Yandina combiner instead. As Mark said, the alternator (as well as the battery charger) are wired directly to the
      Message 3 of 14 , Jul 16, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        We have a similar set-up, although using a Yandina combiner instead. As Mark said, the alternator (as well as the battery charger) are wired directly to the house bank (fused of course). The battery selector just selects which battery bank we're drawing power from, not charging to. The house bank is larger (in our case 2 x Group 31) and the "reserve" bank is a single Group 24.

        The result is that when we get on the boat, we switch to 1 (house) and never switch it off until we leave the boat. No switching to BOTH while charging or deciding which bank to use on which day. It's basically on or off.

        And we can switch while the engine is running with no worries about harming the alternator.

        We really like this set up.
        -Jim
        1984 Sabre 34, #207


        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Mark Carlson <signsnow389@...> wrote:
        >
        > Another good reason to have a split charging system where house and engine
        > battery banks are separate.
        >
        > We use the balmar duo charge and there are others devices out there that
        > do the same, thing.
        >
        > The alternator has a direct fused hook up to the house bank. No matter what
        > grand kids, crew or charterers do to the switches, the alternator allways
        > has a live voltage to sense and the diodes are safe.
        >
        > The start battery gets charged after the house bank is fully charged.
        >
        > The attached pdf has a good diagram on how to set it up.
        >
        > We use two battery bank switches where we can combine both banks if needed
        > --
        >
        > Best Regards,
        >
        > Mark Calrson
        > s/v Stargazer Sabre 34 14
        >
      • DAVID LOCHNER
        There are several ways to set this up, we use a Yandina combiner with separate switches for the house and starting battery. Blue Sea makes the switches and
        Message 4 of 14 , Jul 16, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          There are several ways to set this up, we use a Yandina combiner with separate switches for the house and starting battery. Blue Sea makes the switches and they also have a combiner.

          In boat bucks terms the combiner is cheap. Not sure what a Yandina is going for but a Blue Sea Automatic Charging Relay (ACR) for a standard 50 amp alternator is only about $50

          Dave


          On Jul 16, 2013, at 9:37 AM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@...> wrote:

           

          We have a similar set-up, although using a Yandina combiner instead. As Mark said, the alternator (as well as the battery charger) are wired directly to the house bank (fused of course). The battery selector just selects which battery bank we're drawing power from, not charging to. The house bank is larger (in our case 2 x Group 31) and the "reserve" bank is a single Group 24.

          The result is that when we get on the boat, we switch to 1 (house) and never switch it off until we leave the boat. No switching to BOTH while charging or deciding which bank to use on which day. It's basically on or off.

          And we can switch while the engine is running with no worries about harming the alternator.

          We really like this set up.
          -Jim
          1984 Sabre 34, #207

          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Mark Carlson <signsnow389@...> wrote:
          >
          > Another good reason to have a split charging system where house and engine
          > battery banks are separate.
          >
          > We use the balmar duo charge and there are others devices out there that
          > do the same, thing.
          >
          > The alternator has a direct fused hook up to the house bank. No matter what
          > grand kids, crew or charterers do to the switches, the alternator allways
          > has a live voltage to sense and the diodes are safe.
          >
          > The start battery gets charged after the house bank is fully charged.
          >
          > The attached pdf has a good diagram on how to set it up.
          >
          > We use two battery bank switches where we can combine both banks if needed
          > --
          >
          > Best Regards,
          >
          > Mark Calrson
          > s/v Stargazer Sabre 34 14
          >


        • josrulz_2001
          The C100 from Yandina was about the same. I think I paid about $55 from Defender last year. The expensive part was properly fusing everything, installing bus
          Message 5 of 14 , Jul 16, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            The C100 from Yandina was about the same. I think I paid about $55 from Defender last year. The expensive part was properly fusing everything, installing bus bars, making up new battery cables, and so on. But even that wasn't so bad in boat bucks terms.


            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, DAVID LOCHNER <davelochner@...> wrote:
            >
            > There are several ways to set this up, we use a Yandina combiner with separate switches for the house and starting battery. Blue Sea makes the switches and they also have a combiner.
            >
            > In boat bucks terms the combiner is cheap. Not sure what a Yandina is going for but a Blue Sea Automatic Charging Relay (ACR) for a standard 50 amp alternator is only about $50
            >
            > Dave
            >
            >
            > On Jul 16, 2013, at 9:37 AM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@...> wrote:
            >
            > > We have a similar set-up, although using a Yandina combiner instead. As Mark said, the alternator (as well as the battery charger) are wired directly to the house bank (fused of course). The battery selector just selects which battery bank we're drawing power from, not charging to. The house bank is larger (in our case 2 x Group 31) and the "reserve" bank is a single Group 24.
            > >
            > > The result is that when we get on the boat, we switch to 1 (house) and never switch it off until we leave the boat. No switching to BOTH while charging or deciding which bank to use on which day. It's basically on or off.
            > >
            > > And we can switch while the engine is running with no worries about harming the alternator.
            > >
            > > We really like this set up.
            > > -Jim
            > > 1984 Sabre 34, #207
            > >
            > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Mark Carlson <signsnow389@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Another good reason to have a split charging system where house and engine
            > > > battery banks are separate.
            > > >
            > > > We use the balmar duo charge and there are others devices out there that
            > > > do the same, thing.
            > > >
            > > > The alternator has a direct fused hook up to the house bank. No matter what
            > > > grand kids, crew or charterers do to the switches, the alternator allways
            > > > has a live voltage to sense and the diodes are safe.
            > > >
            > > > The start battery gets charged after the house bank is fully charged.
            > > >
            > > > The attached pdf has a good diagram on how to set it up.
            > > >
            > > > We use two battery bank switches where we can combine both banks if needed
            > > > --
            > > >
            > > > Best Regards,
            > > >
            > > > Mark Calrson
            > > > s/v Stargazer Sabre 34 14
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Jim Starkey
            Does that mean you have no way to shut off the DC? If so, is that wise? Back to your original question, i d say you have a terrible mechanic. He should have
            Message 6 of 14 , Jul 16, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Does that mean you have no way to shut off the DC?  If so, is that wise?

              Back to your original question, i'd say you have a terrible mechanic.  He should have been able to  checkout a breaker by patching to a different breaker and should have been able to see if the pump was shorted by disconnecting it electrically.  I'm sure he charged you for his travel time.  Did he charge you for the beers coming and going?

              The problem with diodes happens when the load goes to zero before the regulator can shut down the field current and the voltage goes through the ceiling.  Unless you are rock solid certain that this can't happen in you setup, a zapper stopper is a hell of a lot cheaper than either a new alternator or an alternator rebuild and certainly less that a lost charter.

              There used to be a joke about the DEC field service guy who fixed a flat by swapping the spare around until the car was level.  A mechanic that fixes a problem by replacing stuff until the damn engine works is just as bad.




              On Jul 16, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Mark Carlson <signsnow389@...> wrote:

               

              Another good reason to have a split charging system where house and engine battery banks are separate.


              We use the balmar duo charge and there are others devices  out there that do the same, thing.

              The alternator has a direct fused hook up to the house bank. No matter what grand kids, crew  or charterers do to the switches, the alternator allways has a live voltage to sense and the diodes are safe.

              The start battery gets charged after the house bank is fully charged.

              The attached pdf has a good diagram on how to set it up.

              We use two battery bank switches where we can combine both banks if needed
              --

              Best Regards,
               
              Mark Calrson
              s/v Stargazer Sabre 34 14

            • Mark Carlson
              See attached our electrical system diagram , modified from Sabre manual. Courtesy of PO The split charge system is shown in addition to an external voltage
              Message 7 of 14 , Jul 16, 2013
              See attached our electrical system diagram , modified from Sabre manual. Courtesy of PO

              The split charge system is shown in addition to  an external voltage regulator for multi stage charging. A must for extended cruisers.

              We've since added a 10 watt solar panel with its own Morningstar multistage charge controller($50). It keeps all banks charged and floated while in the slip. No need to plug in while slipped and no risk of stray current corrosion.

              The duo charge can be jumpered so anytime the house bank is being charged it will pass current to the start bank (alternator, shore charge or solar panel).  We added a battery temp sensor for the start battery so it will shut down the duo charge if the battery gets too hot.

              Another advantage to the dual bank system is extended battery life. Battery life will be shortened if you repeatedly discharge them below 50% of capacity. With two 90 amp batteries in parallel in the house bank you have 180 amps to draw from vs 90. You also don't have to worry about not being able to start the engine in the morning due to low or dead batteries.  The only draw on the start battery is starting the engine.


              --
              Best Regards,
               
              Mark Carlson
              s/v Stargazer Sabre 34 Hull 14
            • carlsonm54
              The DC doesn t flow to house circuits until the house bank switch is turned on. The alternator is always connected to a voltage source. There is also a 250
              Message 8 of 14 , Jul 16, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                The DC doesn't flow to house circuits until the house bank switch is turned on.

                The alternator is always connected to a voltage source. There is also a 250 amp fuse between the alternator and battery. This helps prevent arc welding or fire should the cable
                come loose off the alternator post.

                Your bilge pump and stereo also probably have direct unswitched connections to the house bank.

                I first saw this in Don Casey's and Nigel Calder books on boat electrical systems.


                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jim@...> wrote:
                >
                > Does that mean you have no way to shut off the DC? If so, is that wise?
                >
                > Back to your original question, i'd say you have a terrible mechanic. He should have been able to checkout a breaker by patching to a different breaker and should have been able to see if the pump was shorted by disconnecting it electrically. I'm sure he charged you for his travel time. Did he charge you for the beers coming and going?
                >
                > The problem with diodes happens when the load goes to zero before the regulator can shut down the field current and the voltage goes through the ceiling. Unless you are rock solid certain that this can't happen in you setup, a zapper stopper is a hell of a lot cheaper than either a new alternator or an alternator rebuild and certainly less that a lost charter.
                >
                > There used to be a joke about the DEC field service guy who fixed a flat by swapping the spare around until the car was level. A mechanic that fixes a problem by replacing stuff until the damn engine works is just as bad.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On Jul 16, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Mark Carlson <signsnow389@...> wrote:
                >
                > > [Attachment(s) from Mark Carlson included below]
                > > Another good reason to have a split charging system where house and engine battery banks are separate.
                > >
                > >
                > > We use the balmar duo charge and there are others devices out there that do the same, thing.
                > >
                > > The alternator has a direct fused hook up to the house bank. No matter what grand kids, crew or charterers do to the switches, the alternator allways has a live voltage to sense and the diodes are safe.
                > >
                > > The start battery gets charged after the house bank is fully charged.
                > >
                > > The attached pdf has a good diagram on how to set it up.
                > >
                > > We use two battery bank switches where we can combine both banks if needed
                > > --
                > >
                > > Best Regards,
                > >
                > > Mark Calrson
                > > s/v Stargazer Sabre 34 14
                > >
                > >
                >
              • mhrutstein
                I think the charterer is smart enough not to have done that. DEFINITELY smart enough not to ADMIT having done it :) But I certainly will take the alternator
                Message 9 of 14 , Jul 16, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think the charterer is smart enough not to have done that. DEFINITELY smart enough not to ADMIT having done it :)

                  But I certainly will take the alternator back to the rebuild shop and see what they have to say.

                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Allison Lehman <allisonleh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Mike do you know if the diodes were blown on the alternator? If that was the case the charterer probably did it by accident. They probably turned the Perko switch off while the engine was running. If this is the case you can't blame the rebuild.
                  >
                  > Allison
                  >
                  > Sent from my iPad
                  >
                  > On Jul 15, 2013, at 7:09 PM, mhrutstein <mhrutstein@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Interested in your opinions here.
                  > >
                  > > I chartered my 1984 Sabre 38 to a couple this past week. Handed over the boat on Saturday, all systems go. Charterer took it down to Boston and spent the night on a mooring. Woke up and could not start the W33 engine. Unfortunately, this was Sunday, so it was 1:30 before I could get a mechanic out to the boat. Four hours later the mechanic decided it was that 20A circuit on the engine and a new circuit would be the fix.
                  > >
                  > > The mechanic showed up Monday AM with the new circuit breaker, put it in, but the circuit kept blowing. What was blowing it? Suspected the fuel pump. Two hours round trip to obtain a new fuel pump, but then before installing it, the mechanic realized the fuel pump was not the problem and next settled on the alternator. Bad alternator was blowing the circuit.
                  > >
                  > > At this point (3:30 Monday afternoon) the charter party walked, receiving a full refund.
                  > >
                  > > Meanwhile, the mechanic went and got a new alternator. Engine started, problem solved. It's now 7 PM on Monday.
                  > >
                  > > ------> The bad alternator was rebuilt this spring!
                  > >
                  > > Questions:
                  > >
                  > > Anyone else experience a similar problem?
                  > >
                  > > Should this problem have taken 13 hours to diagnose and fix?
                  > >
                  > > Charterer while trying to troubleshoot noticed significant corrosion on the back of the box (I assume he meant the box in which contains the ignition and glow-plug and start buttons). Anyone have experience replacing this?
                  > >
                  > > Mike
                  > > S/V Treasure
                  > > Salem, MA
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • mhrutstein
                  Huh! Downloading it now.
                  Message 10 of 14 , Jul 16, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Huh! Downloading it now.
                  • mhrutstein
                    So with our new alternator in place we started the boat and brought it back from Boston to Salem. Went into the dock to wash it down ù the waterline was
                    Message 11 of 14 , Jul 17, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      So with our new alternator in place we started the boat and brought it back from Boston to Salem. Went into the dock to wash it down — the waterline was FILTHY after two nights in Boston harbor. When we went to start it to bring it out to the mooring, however, we got a nasty high-pitched whining sound when we hit the starter button.

                      Now the mechanic says we need a new $750 starter motor, and that this is totally unconnected to the previous starting issues.

                      ???

                      Mike
                      S/V Treasure
                      Salem, MA
                    • Peter Tollini
                      Remove the starter and take it to a good auto electric shop. They ll rebuild it for @$100 or sell you a rebuilt one for @$2-300. You can buy a can of red
                      Message 12 of 14 , Jul 17, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Remove the starter and take it to a good auto electric shop.  They'll rebuild it for @$100 or sell you a rebuilt one for @$2-300.  You can buy a can of red spray paint for $3.99 and it will be just like the $750 one from W.
                        Pete


                        On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 9:33 AM, mhrutstein <mhrutstein@...> wrote:
                         

                        So with our new alternator in place we started the boat and brought it back from Boston to Salem. Went into the dock to wash it down — the waterline was FILTHY after two nights in Boston harbor. When we went to start it to bring it out to the mooring, however, we got a nasty high-pitched whining sound when we hit the starter button.

                        Now the mechanic says we need a new $750 starter motor, and that this is totally unconnected to the previous starting issues.

                        ???

                        Mike
                        S/V Treasure
                        Salem, MA


                      • mainecruising
                        Mike, Twin City Radiator & Alternator in Biddeford, ME (207) 282-1612 will fix it for $100.00 - $150.00 or so. Rick and Gary do great work. Worth the drive...
                        Message 13 of 14 , Jul 17, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Mike,

                          Twin City Radiator & Alternator in Biddeford, ME (207) 282-1612 will fix it for $100.00 - $150.00 or so. Rick and Gary do great work. Worth the drive...

                          -RC



                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "mhrutstein" <mhrutstein@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > So with our new alternator in place we started the boat and brought it back from Boston to Salem. Went into the dock to wash it down — the waterline was FILTHY after two nights in Boston harbor. When we went to start it to bring it out to the mooring, however, we got a nasty high-pitched whining sound when we hit the starter button.
                          >
                          > Now the mechanic says we need a new $750 starter motor, and that this is totally unconnected to the previous starting issues.
                          >
                          > ???
                          >
                          > Mike
                          > S/V Treasure
                          > Salem, MA
                          >
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.