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Re: [SabreSailboat] Sabre focusing on stink potters..

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  • Carter Brey
    John, Dave and I were making fun of Sabre s bad grammar on their pompous website apologia. Not yours. Or your s. Cheerio, CB ... John, Dave and I were making
    Message 1 of 20 , May 13 9:45 PM

      John,

      Dave and I were making fun of Sabre's bad grammar on their pompous website apologia. Not yours. Or your's.

      Cheerio,
      CB

      On May 14, 2013 1:06 AM, <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
       

      Sheesh, looks like I peed in a bunch of your bowls of Cheerios.
      Sorry to break it to some of  you, but I only ask you to note the youngest owner of a Sabre you know.
      Ok, now the 2nd youngest owner you know.
      Bet neither of them are aiming for the Olympics in 2016.
      If the shoe fits, we need to accept it.
      (And if the youngest is you, well you better get in training for Rio.)
       
      Sabres are a quality boat and cost more than other boats.
      As such it is an older clientele who appreciates quality and can afford it.
      For most, when running a sailboat gets too physical,  we move on to trawlers.
      Then comes a black caddie station wagons for a final road trip...
       
      One can say with modern advances, one can handle a sailboat easier.
      But those motorized winches and bow thrusters will only take you so far.
      It is easier to go 5x faster in a power boat and arrive in plenty of time for dinner reservations.
      Being upright the entire trip with ac/heat.
       
      Bentley’s build number are somber, but who here is making killer dough on their investments and is ready move up to a new 426? 
      As I said, the demand is down, but when folks look at older boats, it is the quality of a Sabre that shines.  Hence why we see all these questions on how to rebuild them rather then taking a backhoe to them at a landfill site.
       
      we are all getting older every day.
      But it beats the alternative.
      Enjoy the fact you can still sail your boat.
      But understand sooner or later, you will be looking at alternatives or piloting a rocking chair.
       
      I apologize if my spelling was off.  Early this morning I was dealing with a rigger rebuilding my mast, working on some woodwork for my boat , coordinating the start our club racing program on Thursday, placating a doctor pissed off at my “numbers”, and trying to understand exactly why Outlook under Win8 is so different from any prior version.  My mind was in ramble mode for sure.
       
       
      Regards
       
      john
      Live every day like it is your last because one day you are going to be right.
       
       
       
      Sent from Windows Mail
       
      From: Yahoo
      Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:50 PM
      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
       
       



      Sent from my iPad

      On May 13, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Dave Evans <dave@...> wrote:

       

      Its always a problem for spell-checkers.

      On 5/13/2013 10:30 AM, Carter Brey wrote:
       

      Nice grammar fail in the first sentence. I guess the proofreaders are still furloughed.

      On May 13, 2013 2:06 PM, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
       

      Looks like Sabre has stopped production of sailboats for the time being.

      http://sabreyachts.com/sailing-yachts

      Not the first time this has happened. They did this prior to acquiring Black Cove.

      Demographics are old dudes with lots of cash for high end play toys going to trawlers rather than sailboats.

      This also explains why we have seen an uptick in questions on the late model sailboats around here.

      _

       

       

    • Dan Trainor
      I think we can all do something to get kids / younger adults into sailing. I don t think it is hopeless, but it is a challenge. In this fast-paced virtual
      Message 2 of 20 , May 13 10:50 PM
        I think we can all do something to get kids / younger adults into sailing. I don't think it is hopeless, but it is a challenge.  In this fast-paced virtual world, I think it is a matter of showing them how to slow down to the "Speed of Life".  Sailing is perfect for that.  Simply enjoying the wind and the waves, nature and the boat moving nicely through the water. 


        On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:55 PM, sailor11767 <sailor11767@...> wrote:
         

        20 years ago, I bought a tired old Lightning that I restored (see a trend here? I'm afraid I do....) and raced heavily for a good many years. I have a lot of wonderful memories in that boat, including several years where I had my kids as crew. 4 weeks ago, my son started racing her. While I love the boat, I don't care what misfortune he might bring upon the boat as he learns -- seeing him out racing it and having fun with his early-20's crew is worth whatever happens!

        Harry



        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
        >
        > Jim's comments on the youth are spot on and echoed by Nick Hayes in Saving Sailing. While it is thrilling to watch a 72 foot boat up on a foil that's the kind of sailing only a very few are bold enough, lucky enough, or stupid enough to engage in. (Now sailing on a foiling Moth, is kind of appealing, at least once.) As we all know, sailing is not the NASCAR experience that the AC folks want us to believe. Sailing is about the pure joy of sailing a boat and balancing the wind and sea to get some where, it is about exploring new ports and anchorages, and it is about the camaraderie and friendships that form around our sport and passion.
        >
        > The challenge to those of us who count the time until Social Security and Medicare in weeks and months and not decades is draw young folks, preteens and teens into the sport. Let these kids bring their parents along. If you have a subscription to OffCenterHarbor.com there are some nice videos about kids, boats, and sailing. This is what we need to be promoting. Bringing kids and their families in to the sport needs to happen at local level, at a personal level. What are our clubs doing to make that happen?
        >
        > In Oswego the sailors have taken several approaches. The Yacht Club has a Community Sailing night. Anyone can come down and we'll do our best to get your butt in a boat. Flying Scots, Sabots, Sunfish or whatever, we'll do our best to get you out on the water. We also have a nascent Flying Scot fleet, low key, low expense, working on having a high fun meter rating. Again, get folks on the water, get them sailing.
        >
        > Finally, we formed a 501c3 to support sailing and boating (we did leave Tea Party and Patriot out of the application, so we're hoping it goes through unscathed). The first grant we made was to the local high school to support a high school sailing club. We hope to provide financial support to encourage families and children to become involved in sailing.
        >
        > If we listen to folks like Nick Hayes and think about how we got into sailing, I think we'll all come to the same or similar conclusions, there was a person(s) who whetted our appetite and drew us into the sport.
        >
        > If we want our sport to thrive, we need to help bring young folks into the sport. There are over 700 members on this list serve, if each of us inspired one young person to take up sailing, we'd have 700 new sailors. What are doing to make this happen?
        >
        > Dave
        >
        > Past Commodore
        > Oswego Yacht Club
        >
        > Vice President
        > Oswego Sailing and Boating Foundation, Inc.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On May 13, 2013, at 5:31 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > No one begrudges the inevitable transition to the dark side by the sailors in their late 60s. Stow away masts and power winches can only take you so far. Still, on the water is better than not. But I fear that that is not the problem.
        > >
        > > Our club has a large and active cruising crowd. The first generation, the guys who grew up in wood boats, are mostly dead now. The second generation is having joints replaced and have transitioned to the dark side with honor. My generation of cruisers are having a fine time. But there isn't a next generation. Our friends and ourselves are both the young whipper snappers and the old gaffers.
        > >
        > > Many things have changed to discourage cruising as a way of life. A couple years out of college, I could dream of a Sabre 28 and actually buy a used 24 footer (an Islander Bahama, ugly but sailed badly). Then a 31' Corvette (still with an A4). We bought our Sabre 36 new and kept her for 22 years before we graduated to our dream boat, an (unmentionable) 42. At no point did we have to make a major financial sacrifice to maintain our sailing habit.
        > >
        > > Now, kids two years out of college are profoundly in debt, facing an economy with steadily diminishing real income, and an uncertain job market. And to make it worse, decent 23 and 24 foot entry level cruising boats don't exist; the entire market segment dried up years ago. There are decent used 28 to 30 foot boats, so if the folks in their 20s can grab one, maybe they join the lifestyle. More likely than not, they and their friends have found other less time and capital intensive pastimes. If they wait until they have the proverbial 2.2 kids, they need a 35 or 36 foot boat or face celibacy. That a really big first step. Unless their parent raised 'em on boats, it's a step few will take.
        > >
        > > The other major problem is kid scheduling. It's crazy. Between soccer camp and sailing lessons and robotics camp, the little darlings have every waking moment scheduled. Just try and fine an empty two week period with a 12 year old for a cruise. We tried to schedule our cruises around the sailing association and youth soccer, but it became hopeless.
        > >
        > > I think people are starting boating late, if at all, hoping for something that steers like a car, has high resale value, and isn't a time sink. Grab Buffy after the soccer game, roar out of the harbor streaming dinosaur vapor, and good times, and be home in time for drinks.
        > >
        > > Our cruising committee has tried for a decade to encourage younger members to join use cruising. This year we decided, "Screw it. We're going to the Passamaquoddy. There are no marinas, no restaurants, and no grocery stores. Join us if you can." We don't expect many kids.
        > >
        > > Yeah, I'm afraid it's hopeless. Hinckley pretty much stopped building sailboats five or six years ago. Most of the old names, Pearson, Cape Dory, Bristol, Islander, are all gone. And it's hard to remember when C&C is in bankruptcy or coming.
        > >
        > > And, in the meantime, the lunatics are killing people in mutant boats "to promote the sport."
        > >
        > > It's hopeless. I'm having a wonderful time. I truly sorry that some many good and honest folks are missing out on a wonderful way to live, but I have to accept that that is their problem, not mine.
        > >
        > >
        > > On 5/13/2013 3:09 PM, David and Catherine Allin wrote:
        > >>
        > >> Regrettably as the years start creeping up a switch from sail to power becomes more and more inevitable, if one wishes to maintain the cruising life. Once one has experienced, and become used to Sabre quality, it is surely nice to think that we can remain on the water still in a Sabre. Getting our S402 ready each fall for our annual six month winter cruise in the Bahamas (Canadian snow birds!) is becoming more and more of a chore now both of us are over 70, as is putting her away in the spring as we have just completed.
        > >>
        > >> So... I must take exception to your characterisation of the demographics of those who wish to purchase a Sabre trawler etc. Virtually all our power boat cruising friends are ex long term sailors who wish to continue the life but don't have the health/strength or whatever to continue sailing. Having spent the last fifty plus years at sea/on the sea or just mucking about in boats I will accept the characterisation "old dude" but I do not accept high end play toys ..... a boat of a certain quality is a neccessity and a way of life for my wife and I !! Cheers.
        > >>
        > >> David & Catherine Allin
        > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~_/)~~~~~~~~
        > >> svsolitaire1@...
        > >> http://svsolitaire1.blogspot.com
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >




        --
        Dan
      • Peter Tollini
        One encouraging exception to this trend is our Wednesday night fleet. A large portion of the crew members are 30 or younger. Not so much the skippers and
        Message 3 of 20 , May 14 4:08 AM
          One encouraging exception to this trend is our Wednesday night fleet.  A large portion of the crew members are 30 or younger.  Not so much the skippers and owners.  It seems that time and money are the main bars to ownership in most cases. However, after bashing about in a J30, a laid back daysail on my Sabre has gone from a curiosity to a real source of enjoyment.  Laid back is relative here - we don't get overtaken very often :)  Everybody and everything gets a nick name. For example, Solace is "SV Martha Stewart" to a racing crew.
          One has purchased a clapped out Catalina 27 and is restoring it.  Another is looking at a J28.  All good signs.
          As Dave says, the key is getting them out on the water. 
          Pete


          On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:16 PM, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
           

          Jim's comments on the youth are spot on and echoed by Nick Hayes in Saving Sailing. While it is thrilling to watch a 72 foot boat up on a foil that's the kind of sailing only a very few are bold enough, lucky enough, or stupid enough to engage in. (Now sailing on a foiling Moth, is kind of appealing, at least once.) As we all know, sailing is not the NASCAR experience that the AC folks want us to believe. Sailing is about the pure joy of sailing a boat and balancing the wind and sea to get some where, it is about exploring new ports and anchorages, and it is about the camaraderie and friendships that form around our sport and passion. 


          The challenge to those of us who count the time until Social Security and Medicare in weeks and months and not decades is draw young folks, preteens and teens into the sport. Let these kids bring their parents along. If you have a subscription to OffCenterHarbor.com there are some nice videos about kids, boats, and sailing. This is what we need to be promoting. Bringing kids and their families in to the sport needs to happen at local level, at a personal level. What are our clubs doing to make that happen?

          In Oswego the sailors have taken several approaches. The Yacht Club has a Community Sailing night. Anyone can come down and we'll do our best to get your butt in a boat. Flying Scots, Sabots, Sunfish or whatever, we'll do our best to get you out on the water. We also have a nascent Flying Scot fleet, low key, low expense, working on having a high fun meter rating. Again, get folks on the water, get them sailing. 

          Finally, we formed a 501c3 to support sailing and boating (we did leave Tea Party and Patriot out of the application, so we're hoping it goes through unscathed). The first grant we made was to the local high school to support a high school sailing club. We hope to provide financial support toencourage families and children to become involved in sailing. 

          If we listen to folks like Nick Hayes and think about how we got into sailing, I think we'll all come to the same or similar conclusions, there was a person(s) who whetted our appetite and drew us into the sport. 

          If we want our sport to thrive, we need to help bring young folks into the sport. There are over 700 members on this list serve, if each of us inspired one young person to take up sailing, we'd have 700 new sailors. What are doing to make this happen?

          Dave

          Past Commodore
          Oswego Yacht Club

          Vice President
          Oswego Sailing and Boating Foundation, Inc.





          On May 13, 2013, at 5:31 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:

           

          No one begrudges the inevitable transition to the dark side by the sailors in their late 60s.   Stow away masts and power winches can only take you so far.   Still, on the water is better than not.  But I fear that that is not the problem.

          Our club has a large and active cruising crowd.  The first generation, the guys who grew up in wood boats, are mostly dead now.  The second generation is having joints replaced and have transitioned to the dark side with honor.  My generation of cruisers are having a fine time.  But there isn't a next generation.  Our friends and ourselves are both the young whipper snappers and the old gaffers.

          Many things have changed to discourage cruising as a way of life.  A couple years out of college, I could dream of a Sabre 28 and actually buy a used 24 footer (an Islander Bahama, ugly but sailed badly).  Then a 31' Corvette (still with an A4).  We bought our Sabre 36 new and kept her for 22 years before we graduated to our dream boat, an (unmentionable) 42.  At no point did we have to make a major financial sacrifice to maintain our sailing habit.

          Now, kids two years out of college are profoundly in debt, facing an economy with steadily diminishing real income, and an uncertain job market.  And to make it worse, decent 23 and 24 foot entry level cruising boats don't exist; the entire market segment dried up years ago.  There are decent used 28 to 30 foot boats, so if the folks in their 20s can grab one, maybe they join the lifestyle.  More likely than not, they and their friends have found other less time and capital intensive pastimes.  If they wait until they have the proverbial 2.2 kids, they need a 35 or 36 foot boat or face celibacy.  That a really big first step.  Unless their parent raised 'em on boats, it's a step few will take.

          The other major problem is kid scheduling.  It's crazy.  Between soccer camp and sailing lessons and robotics camp, the little darlings have every waking moment scheduled.  Just try and fine an empty two week period with a 12 year old for a cruise.  We tried to schedule our cruises around the sailing association and youth soccer, but it became hopeless.

          I think people are starting boating late, if at all, hoping for something that steers like a car, has high resale value, and isn't a time sink.  Grab Buffy after the soccer game, roar out of the harbor streaming dinosaur vapor, and good times, and be home in time for drinks.

          Our cruising committee has tried for a decade to encourage younger members to join use cruising.  This year we decided, "Screw it.  We're going to the Passamaquoddy.  There are no marinas, no restaurants, and no grocery stores.  Join us if you can."  We don't expect many kids.

          Yeah, I'm afraid it's hopeless.  Hinckley pretty much stopped building sailboats five or six years ago.  Most of the old names, Pearson, Cape Dory, Bristol, Islander, are all gone.  And it's hard to remember when C&C is in bankruptcy or coming.

          And, in the meantime, the lunatics are killing people in mutant boats "to promote the sport."

          It's hopeless.  I'm having a wonderful time.  I truly sorry that some many good and honest folks are missing out on a wonderful way to live, but I have to accept that that is their problem, not mine.


          On 5/13/2013 3:09 PM, David and Catherine Allin wrote:
           
          Regrettably as the years start creeping up a switch from sail to power becomes more and more inevitable, if one wishes to maintain the cruising life. Once one has experienced, and become used to Sabre quality, it is surely nice to think that we can remain on the water still in a Sabre.  Getting our S402 ready each fall for our annual six month winter cruise in the Bahamas (Canadian snow birds!) is becoming more and more of a chore now both of us are over 70, as is putting her away in the spring as we have just completed.  

          So... I must take exception to your characterisation of the demographics of those who wish to purchase a Sabre trawler etc.  Virtually all our power boat cruising friends are ex long term sailors who wish to continue the  life but don't have the health/strength or whatever to continue sailing.    Having spent the last fifty plus years at sea/on the sea or just mucking about in boats I will accept the characterisation "old dude" but I do not accept high end play toys .....  a boat of a certain quality is a neccessity and a way of life for my wife and I !!  Cheers.   

          David & Catherine Allin
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~_/)~~~~~~~~
          svsolitaire1@...
          http://svsolitaire1.blogspot.com







        • sabre32sailor
          Pete We are about to embark on a grand experiment at out club. Thursday nights we used to average 45-55 boats on the line in the salad days (eg 8-10 years
          Message 4 of 20 , May 14 11:35 AM
            Pete
             
            We are about to embark on a grand experiment at out club.
            Thursday nights we used to average 45-55 boats on the line in the salad days (eg 8-10 years ago).
            That includes a J-24 fleet, a large J-105 fleet,  and 4 classes of PHRF boats that range from 22-45 feet.  Our biggest concern was all the paperwork we had to file with the coast guard and local harbormasters because we tripped over the magic 50 boat number where they care (Ever fill out a form asking for the number of boats, course and wind conditions for races that will not happen for another 3 months???    We have.)
             
            We are down to 35-45 a race now adays.
            In our zeal to make the best racers (we are always in the top 3 in PHRF NE championships), we killed our feed stock.  If you are a diehard, you would love our racing, as it is exactly how a major regatta on the weekend is handled including running kites at night.   If you are beginning, well lets just say it was a steep learning curve, even with our emphasis on fun.
             
            So one of our RC guys has an idea.  He is going to start a fun cruising fleet versus our racing cruising fleet (eg canvas fleet or racing sans kites).  The rules are:
            1. Thursday nights after the racers have started.
            2. instead of windward/leeward courses, they are going for some windward and a lot of beam reaches.
            3. Fun is the #1 item to have.
             
            The idea is to get some of the newer members with the 4 knt shtbxs to  try racing.  Then let them eat pizza and kill beer at the club before the awards ceremony.  They are kept away from the diehards on the course.  If they like the idea, they can easily move up into the racing class with or without a spinnaker.  More work to set up a course where you have to think long and hard as to what likely will be 2-3 courses. But it is worth a try.
             
            We also have started an Snipe race on Tuesday night. This is usually younger folks who raced in college.  They may stay there, or move up to our Thursday night racing series once they start having kids and want a bigger boat.
             
            All Regatta members will not think twice about taking some folks out as crew that just show up on the dock.  I have been a case study for what turned out to be a Harvard shrink when she watched us bend a spinnaker pole around a stay in 4 knots of wind.   She did not come back.   Ohhhps...
             
            On the other hand, we split up a husband/wife team who showed up on our club dock knowing nothing of sailing but had  bought a house next to the sound.  We taught them everything they needed to know about handling and maintaining a boat.   Since then, they have learned to be quite good sailors and bought a b-423.   If you can get them out there, it is half the battle as they say.
             
            Will report back if this works.  If I am as light on crew as I currently am, I may drop down to fun class and single/doublehand my boat without a kite. 
             
             If any of you would like to race on Thursday nights in Salem(ma) Sound, email me.  Can  be with your boat, or we will find you a boat. You do not have to be a club  member to join the fun.
             
            Regards
             
             
            john
             
            Sent from Windows Mail
             
            From: Peter Tollini
            Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎14‎, ‎2013 ‎7‎:‎08‎ ‎AM
            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
             
             

            One encouraging exception to this trend is our Wednesday night fleet.  A large portion of the crew members are 30 or younger.  Not so much the skippers and owners.  It seems that time and money are the main bars to ownership in most cases. However, after bashing about in a J30, a laid back daysail on my Sabre has gone from a curiosity to a real source of enjoyment.  Laid back is relative here - we don't get overtaken very often :)  Everybody and everything gets a nick name. For example, Solace is "SV Martha Stewart" to a racing crew.
            One has purchased a clapped out Catalina 27 and is restoring it.  Another is looking at a J28.  All good signs.
            As Dave says, the key is getting them out on the water. 
            Pete


            On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:16 PM, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
             

            Jim's comments on the youth are spot on and echoed by Nick Hayes in Saving Sailing. While it is thrilling to watch a 72 foot boat up on a foil that's the kind of sailing only a very few are bold enough, lucky enough, or stupid enough to engage in. (Now sailing on a foiling Moth, is kind of appealing, at least once.) As we all know, sailing is not the NASCAR experience that the AC folks want us to believe. Sailing is about the pure joy of sailing a boat and balancing the wind and sea to get some where, it is about exploring new ports and anchorages, and it is about the camaraderie and friendships that form around our sport and passion. 


            The challenge to those of us who count the time until Social Security and Medicare in weeks and months and not decades is draw young folks, preteens and teens into the sport. Let these kids bring their parents along. If you have a subscription to OffCenterHarbor.com there are some nice videos about kids, boats, and sailing. This is what we need to be promoting. Bringing kids and their families in to the sport needs to happen at local level, at a personal level. What are our clubs doing to make that happen?

            In Oswego the sailors have taken several approaches. The Yacht Club has a Community Sailing night. Anyone can come down and we'll do our best to get your butt in a boat. Flying Scots, Sabots, Sunfish or whatever, we'll do our best to get you out on the water. We also have a nascent Flying Scot fleet, low key, low expense, working on having a high fun meter rating. Again, get folks on the water, get them sailing. 

            Finally, we formed a 501c3 to support sailing and boating (we did leave Tea Party and Patriot out of the application, so we're hoping it goes through unscathed). The first grant we made was to the local high school to support a high school sailing club. We hope to provide financial support toencourage families and children to become involved in sailing. 

            If we listen to folks like Nick Hayes and think about how we got into sailing, I think we'll all come to the same or similar conclusions, there was a person(s) who whetted our appetite and drew us into the sport. 

            If we want our sport to thrive, we need to help bring young folks into the sport. There are over 700 members on this list serve, if each of us inspired one young person to take up sailing, we'd have 700 new sailors. What are doing to make this happen?

            Dave

            Past Commodore
            Oswego Yacht Club

            Vice President
            Oswego Sailing and Boating Foundation, Inc.





            On May 13, 2013, at 5:31 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:

             

            No one begrudges the inevitable transition to the dark side by the sailors in their late 60s.   Stow away masts and power winches can only take you so far.   Still, on the water is better than not.  But I fear that that is not the problem.

            Our club has a large and active cruising crowd.  The first generation, the guys who grew up in wood boats, are mostly dead now.  The second generation is having joints replaced and have transitioned to the dark side with honor.  My generation of cruisers are having a fine time.  But there isn't a next generation.  Our friends and ourselves are both the young whipper snappers and the old gaffers.

            Many things have changed to discourage cruising as a way of life.  A couple years out of college, I could dream of a Sabre 28 and actually buy a used 24 footer (an Islander Bahama, ugly but sailed badly).  Then a 31' Corvette (still with an A4).  We bought our Sabre 36 new and kept her for 22 years before we graduated to our dream boat, an (unmentionable) 42.  At no point did we have to make a major financial sacrifice to maintain our sailing habit.

            Now, kids two years out of college are profoundly in debt, facing an economy with steadily diminishing real income, and an uncertain job market.  And to make it worse, decent 23 and 24 foot entry level cruising boats don't exist; the entire market segment dried up years ago.  There are decent used 28 to 30 foot boats, so if the folks in their 20s can grab one, maybe they join the lifestyle.  More likely than not, they and their friends have found other less time and capital intensive pastimes.  If they wait until they have the proverbial 2.2 kids, they need a 35 or 36 foot boat or face celibacy.  That a really big first step.  Unless their parent raised 'em on boats, it's a step few will take.

            The other major problem is kid scheduling.  It's crazy.  Between soccer camp and sailing lessons and robotics camp, the little darlings have every waking moment scheduled.  Just try and fine an empty two week period with a 12 year old for a cruise.  We tried to schedule our cruises around the sailing association and youth soccer, but it became hopeless.

            I think people are starting boating late, if at all, hoping for something that steers like a car, has high resale value, and isn't a time sink.  Grab Buffy after the soccer game, roar out of the harbor streaming dinosaur vapor, and good times, and be home in time for drinks.

            Our cruising committee has tried for a decade to encourage younger members to join use cruising.  This year we decided, "Screw it.  We're going to the Passamaquoddy.  There are no marinas, no restaurants, and no grocery stores.  Join us if you can."  We don't expect many kids.

            Yeah, I'm afraid it's hopeless.  Hinckley pretty much stopped building sailboats five or six years ago.  Most of the old names, Pearson, Cape Dory, Bristol, Islander, are all gone.  And it's hard to remember when C&C is in bankruptcy or coming.

            And, in the meantime, the lunatics are killing people in mutant boats "to promote the sport."

            It's hopeless.  I'm having a wonderful time.  I truly sorry that some many good and honest folks are missing out on a wonderful way to live, but I have to accept that that is their problem, not mine.


            On 5/13/2013 3:09 PM, David and Catherine Allin wrote:
             
            Regrettably as the years start creeping up a switch from sail to power becomes more and more inevitable, if one wishes to maintain the cruising life. Once one has experienced, and become used to Sabre quality, it is surely nice to think that we can remain on the water still in a Sabre.  Getting our S402 ready each fall for our annual six month winter cruise in the Bahamas (Canadian snow birds!) is becoming more and more of a chore now both of us are over 70, as is putting her away in the spring as we have just completed.  

            So... I must take exception to your characterisation of the demographics of those who wish to purchase a Sabre trawler etc.  Virtually all our power boat cruising friends are ex long term sailors who wish to continue the  life but don't have the health/strength or whatever to continue sailing.    Having spent the last fifty plus years at sea/on the sea or just mucking about in boats I will accept the characterisation "old dude" but I do not accept high end play toys .....  a boat of a certain quality is a neccessity and a way of life for my wife and I !!  Cheers.   

            David & Catherine Allin
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~_/)~~~~~~~~
            svsolitaire1@...
            http://svsolitaire1.blogspot.com






             

             

             

             

          • Peter Tollini
            [image: photo.JPG] In the middle of this thread, this pocket cruiser shows up on the next dock over. It s a Paceship PY23, circa 1980. It s a little rough
            Message 5 of 20 , May 14 12:00 PM
              photo.JPG


              In the middle of this thread, this pocket cruiser shows up on the next dock over.  It's a Paceship PY23, circa 1980.  It's a little rough with age, but still shows great lines from Ray Hunt and John Deknatel's boards.  It's also one hull number later and the same color scheme as my first new boat.
              This was how young couples could get into cruising without breaking the bank or spending months on a project. There were comparable choices from Ranger, C&C, Tanzer and others.  They were all good sailing, good looking, solid little boats, with real, if small and Spartan, accommodations.  OK, we could have done better with something other than the Kenyon alcohol stove, aka The Antichrist.  We cruised ours all over the upper two thirds of the Chesapeake, often with an 8 year old son and a German Shepherd.  People didn't look at us like we were nuts, at least not to our face.  We looked at Sabres, Tartans and Bristols on the water and dreamed.
              There is no comparable entry level now.  A J70 is $70K, a Hunter 21 is $20K+.

              Pete



              On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:
              One encouraging exception to this trend is our Wednesday night fleet.  A large portion of the crew members are 30 or younger.  Not so much the skippers and owners.  It seems that time and money are the main bars to ownership in most cases. However, after bashing about in a J30, a laid back daysail on my Sabre has gone from a curiosity to a real source of enjoyment.  Laid back is relative here - we don't get overtaken very often :)  Everybody and everything gets a nick name. For example, Solace is "SV Martha Stewart" to a racing crew.
              One has purchased a clapped out Catalina 27 and is restoring it.  Another is looking at a J28.  All good signs.
              As Dave says, the key is getting them out on the water. 
              Pete


              On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:16 PM, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
               

              Jim's comments on the youth are spot on and echoed by Nick Hayes in Saving Sailing. While it is thrilling to watch a 72 foot boat up on a foil that's the kind of sailing only a very few are bold enough, lucky enough, or stupid enough to engage in. (Now sailing on a foiling Moth, is kind of appealing, at least once.) As we all know, sailing is not the NASCAR experience that the AC folks want us to believe. Sailing is about the pure joy of sailing a boat and balancing the wind and sea to get some where, it is about exploring new ports and anchorages, and it is about the camaraderie and friendships that form around our sport and passion. 


              The challenge to those of us who count the time until Social Security and Medicare in weeks and months and not decades is draw young folks, preteens and teens into the sport. Let these kids bring their parents along. If you have a subscription to OffCenterHarbor.com there are some nice videos about kids, boats, and sailing. This is what we need to be promoting. Bringing kids and their families in to the sport needs to happen at local level, at a personal level. What are our clubs doing to make that happen?

              In Oswego the sailors have taken several approaches. The Yacht Club has a Community Sailing night. Anyone can come down and we'll do our best to get your butt in a boat. Flying Scots, Sabots, Sunfish or whatever, we'll do our best to get you out on the water. We also have a nascent Flying Scot fleet, low key, low expense, working on having a high fun meter rating. Again, get folks on the water, get them sailing. 

              Finally, we formed a 501c3 to support sailing and boating (we did leave Tea Party and Patriot out of the application, so we're hoping it goes through unscathed). The first grant we made was to the local high school to support a high school sailing club. We hope to provide financial support toencourage families and children to become involved in sailing. 

              If we listen to folks like Nick Hayes and think about how we got into sailing, I think we'll all come to the same or similar conclusions, there was a person(s) who whetted our appetite and drew us into the sport. 

              If we want our sport to thrive, we need to help bring young folks into the sport. There are over 700 members on this list serve, if each of us inspired one young person to take up sailing, we'd have 700 new sailors. What are doing to make this happen?

              Dave

              Past Commodore
              Oswego Yacht Club

              Vice President
              Oswego Sailing and Boating Foundation, Inc.





              On May 13, 2013, at 5:31 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:

               

              No one begrudges the inevitable transition to the dark side by the sailors in their late 60s.   Stow away masts and power winches can only take you so far.   Still, on the water is better than not.  But I fear that that is not the problem.

              Our club has a large and active cruising crowd.  The first generation, the guys who grew up in wood boats, are mostly dead now.  The second generation is having joints replaced and have transitioned to the dark side with honor.  My generation of cruisers are having a fine time.  But there isn't a next generation.  Our friends and ourselves are both the young whipper snappers and the old gaffers.

              Many things have changed to discourage cruising as a way of life.  A couple years out of college, I could dream of a Sabre 28 and actually buy a used 24 footer (an Islander Bahama, ugly but sailed badly).  Then a 31' Corvette (still with an A4).  We bought our Sabre 36 new and kept her for 22 years before we graduated to our dream boat, an (unmentionable) 42.  At no point did we have to make a major financial sacrifice to maintain our sailing habit.

              Now, kids two years out of college are profoundly in debt, facing an economy with steadily diminishing real income, and an uncertain job market.  And to make it worse, decent 23 and 24 foot entry level cruising boats don't exist; the entire market segment dried up years ago.  There are decent used 28 to 30 foot boats, so if the folks in their 20s can grab one, maybe they join the lifestyle.  More likely than not, they and their friends have found other less time and capital intensive pastimes.  If they wait until they have the proverbial 2.2 kids, they need a 35 or 36 foot boat or face celibacy.  That a really big first step.  Unless their parent raised 'em on boats, it's a step few will take.

              The other major problem is kid scheduling.  It's crazy.  Between soccer camp and sailing lessons and robotics camp, the little darlings have every waking moment scheduled.  Just try and fine an empty two week period with a 12 year old for a cruise.  We tried to schedule our cruises around the sailing association and youth soccer, but it became hopeless.

              I think people are starting boating late, if at all, hoping for something that steers like a car, has high resale value, and isn't a time sink.  Grab Buffy after the soccer game, roar out of the harbor streaming dinosaur vapor, and good times, and be home in time for drinks.

              Our cruising committee has tried for a decade to encourage younger members to join use cruising.  This year we decided, "Screw it.  We're going to the Passamaquoddy.  There are no marinas, no restaurants, and no grocery stores.  Join us if you can."  We don't expect many kids.

              Yeah, I'm afraid it's hopeless.  Hinckley pretty much stopped building sailboats five or six years ago.  Most of the old names, Pearson, Cape Dory, Bristol, Islander, are all gone.  And it's hard to remember when C&C is in bankruptcy or coming.

              And, in the meantime, the lunatics are killing people in mutant boats "to promote the sport."

              It's hopeless.  I'm having a wonderful time.  I truly sorry that some many good and honest folks are missing out on a wonderful way to live, but I have to accept that that is their problem, not mine.


              On 5/13/2013 3:09 PM, David and Catherine Allin wrote:
               
              Regrettably as the years start creeping up a switch from sail to power becomes more and more inevitable, if one wishes to maintain the cruising life. Once one has experienced, and become used to Sabre quality, it is surely nice to think that we can remain on the water still in a Sabre.  Getting our S402 ready each fall for our annual six month winter cruise in the Bahamas (Canadian snow birds!) is becoming more and more of a chore now both of us are over 70, as is putting her away in the spring as we have just completed.  

              So... I must take exception to your characterisation of the demographics of those who wish to purchase a Sabre trawler etc.  Virtually all our power boat cruising friends are ex long term sailors who wish to continue the  life but don't have the health/strength or whatever to continue sailing.    Having spent the last fifty plus years at sea/on the sea or just mucking about in boats I will accept the characterisation "old dude" but I do not accept high end play toys .....  a boat of a certain quality is a neccessity and a way of life for my wife and I !!  Cheers.   

              David & Catherine Allin
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~_/)~~~~~~~~
              svsolitaire1@...
              http://svsolitaire1.blogspot.com








            • Barend Brink
              The upside of sailors migrating to stink pots is that prices will come down, and we will all be sailing 402 s soon. :-) //Barend To:
              Message 6 of 20 , May 15 3:23 PM
                The upside of sailors migrating to stink pots is that prices will come down, and we will all be sailing 402's soon.   :-)
                 
                //Barend
                 

                To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                From: sabre32sailor@...
                Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 18:35:37 +0000
                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Sabre focusing on stink potters..And getting new sailors into the sport

                 
                Pete
                 
                We are about to embark on a grand experiment at out club.
                Thursday nights we used to average 45-55 boats on the line in the salad days (eg 8-10 years ago).
                That includes a J-24 fleet, a large J-105 fleet,  and 4 classes of PHRF boats that range from 22-45 feet.  Our biggest concern was all the paperwork we had to file with the coast guard and local harbormasters because we tripped over the magic 50 boat number where they care (Ever fill out a form asking for the number of boats, course and wind conditions for races that will not happen for another 3 months???    We have.)
                 
                We are down to 35-45 a race now adays.
                In our zeal to make the best racers (we are always in the top 3 in PHRF NE championships), we killed our feed stock.  If you are a diehard, you would love our racing, as it is exactly how a major regatta on the weekend is handled including running kites at night.   If you are beginning, well lets just say it was a steep learning curve, even with our emphasis on fun.
                 
                So one of our RC guys has an idea.  He is going to start a fun cruising fleet versus our racing cruising fleet (eg canvas fleet or racing sans kites).  The rules are:
                1. Thursday nights after the racers have started.
                2. instead of windward/leeward courses, they are going for some windward and a lot of beam reaches.
                3. Fun is the #1 item to have.
                 
                The idea is to get some of the newer members with the 4 knt shtbxs to  try racing.  Then let them eat pizza and kill beer at the club before the awards ceremony.  They are kept away from the diehards on the course.  If they like the idea, they can easily move up into the racing class with or without a spinnaker.  More work to set up a course where you have to think long and hard as to what likely will be 2-3 courses. But it is worth a try.
                 
                We also have started an Snipe race on Tuesday night. This is usually younger folks who raced in college.  They may stay there, or move up to our Thursday night racing series once they start having kids and want a bigger boat.
                 
                All Regatta members will not think twice about taking some folks out as crew that just show up on the dock.  I have been a case study for what turned out to be a Harvard shrink when she watched us bend a spinnaker pole around a stay in 4 knots of wind.   She did not come back.   Ohhhps...
                 
                On the other hand, we split up a husband/wife team who showed up on our club dock knowing nothing of sailing but had  bought a house next to the sound.  We taught them everything they needed to know about handling and maintaining a boat.   Since then, they have learned to be quite good sailors and bought a b-423.   If you can get them out there, it is half the battle as they say.
                 
                Will report back if this works.  If I am as light on crew as I currently am, I may drop down to fun class and single/doublehand my boat without a kite. 
                 
                 If any of you would like to race on Thursday nights in Salem(ma) Sound, email me.  Can  be with your boat, or we will find you a boat. You do not have to be a club  member to join the fun.
                 
                Regards
                 
                 
                john
                 
                Sent from Windows Mail
                 
                From: Peter Tollini
                Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎14‎, ‎2013 ‎7‎:‎08‎ ‎AM
                To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                 
                 

                One encouraging exception to this trend is our Wednesday night fleet.  A large portion of the crew members are 30 or younger.  Not so much the skippers and owners.  It seems that time and money are the main bars to ownership in most cases. However, after bashing about in a J30, a laid back daysail on my Sabre has gone from a curiosity to a real source of enjoyment.  Laid back is relative here - we don't get overtaken very often :)  Everybody and everything gets a nick name. For example, Solace is "SV Martha Stewart" to a racing crew.
                One has purchased a clapped out Catalina 27 and is restoring it.  Another is looking at a J28.  All good signs.
                As Dave says, the key is getting them out on the water. 
                Pete


                On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:16 PM, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                 

                Jim's comments on the youth are spot on and echoed by Nick Hayes in Saving Sailing. While it is thrilling to watch a 72 foot boat up on a foil that's the kind of sailing only a very few are bold enough, lucky enough, or stupid enough to engage in. (Now sailing on a foiling Moth, is kind of appealing, at least once.) As we all know, sailing is not the NASCAR experience that the AC folks want us to believe. Sailing is about the pure joy of sailing a boat and balancing the wind and sea to get some where, it is about exploring new ports and anchorages, and it is about the camaraderie and friendships that form around our sport and passion. 


                The challenge to those of us who count the time until Social Security and Medicare in weeks and months and not decades is draw young folks, preteens and teens into the sport. Let these kids bring their parents along. If you have a subscription to OffCenterHarbor.com there are some nice videos about kids, boats, and sailing. This is what we need to be promoting. Bringing kids and their families in to the sport needs to happen at local level, at a personal level. What are our clubs doing to make that happen?

                In Oswego the sailors have taken several approaches. The Yacht Club has a Community Sailing night. Anyone can come down and we'll do our best to get your butt in a boat. Flying Scots, Sabots, Sunfish or whatever, we'll do our best to get you out on the water. We also have a nascent Flying Scot fleet, low key, low expense, working on having a high fun meter rating. Again, get folks on the water, get them sailing. 

                Finally, we formed a 501c3 to support sailing and boating (we did leave Tea Party and Patriot out of the application, so we're hoping it goes through unscathed). The first grant we made was to the local high school to support a high school sailing club. We hope to provide financial support toencourage families and children to become involved in sailing. 

                If we listen to folks like Nick Hayes and think about how we got into sailing, I think we'll all come to the same or similar conclusions, there was a person(s) who whetted our appetite and drew us into the sport. 

                If we want our sport to thrive, we need to help bring young folks into the sport. There are over 700 members on this list serve, if each of us inspired one young person to take up sailing, we'd have 700 new sailors. What are doing to make this happen?

                Dave

                Past Commodore
                Oswego Yacht Club

                Vice President
                Oswego Sailing and Boating Foundation, Inc.





                On May 13, 2013, at 5:31 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:

                 

                No one begrudges the inevitable transition to the dark side by the sailors in their late 60s.   Stow away masts and power winches can only take you so far.   Still, on the water is better than not.  But I fear that that is not the problem.

                Our club has a large and active cruising crowd.  The first generation, the guys who grew up in wood boats, are mostly dead now.  The second generation is having joints replaced and have transitioned to the dark side with honor.  My generation of cruisers are having a fine time.  But there isn't a next generation.  Our friends and ourselves are both the young whipper snappers and the old gaffers.

                Many things have changed to discourage cruising as a way of life.  A couple years out of college, I could dream of a Sabre 28 and actually buy a used 24 footer (an Islander Bahama, ugly but sailed badly).  Then a 31' Corvette (still with an A4).  We bought our Sabre 36 new and kept her for 22 years before we graduated to our dream boat, an (unmentionable) 42.  At no point did we have to make a major financial sacrifice to maintain our sailing habit.

                Now, kids two years out of college are profoundly in debt, facing an economy with steadily diminishing real income, and an uncertain job market.  And to make it worse, decent 23 and 24 foot entry level cruising boats don't exist; the entire market segment dried up years ago.  There are decent used 28 to 30 foot boats, so if the folks in their 20s can grab one, maybe they join the lifestyle.  More likely than not, they and their friends have found other less time and capital intensive pastimes.  If they wait until they have the proverbial 2.2 kids, they need a 35 or 36 foot boat or face celibacy.  That a really big first step.  Unless their parent raised 'em on boats, it's a step few will take.

                The other major problem is kid scheduling.  It's crazy.  Between soccer camp and sailing lessons and robotics camp, the little darlings have every waking moment scheduled.  Just try and fine an empty two week period with a 12 year old for a cruise.  We tried to schedule our cruises around the sailing association and youth soccer, but it became hopeless.

                I think people are starting boating late, if at all, hoping for something that steers like a car, has high resale value, and isn't a time sink.  Grab Buffy after the soccer game, roar out of the harbor streaming dinosaur vapor, and good times, and be home in time for drinks.

                Our cruising committee has tried for a decade to encourage younger members to join use cruising.  This year we decided, "Screw it.  We're going to the Passamaquoddy.  There are no marinas, no restaurants, and no grocery stores.  Join us if you can."  We don't expect many kids.

                Yeah, I'm afraid it's hopeless.  Hinckley pretty much stopped building sailboats five or six years ago.  Most of the old names, Pearson, Cape Dory, Bristol, Islander, are all gone.  And it's hard to remember when C&C is in bankruptcy or coming.

                And, in the meantime, the lunatics are killing people in mutant boats "to promote the sport."

                It's hopeless.  I'm having a wonderful time.  I truly sorry that some many good and honest folks are missing out on a wonderful way to live, but I have to accept that that is their problem, not mine.


                On 5/13/2013 3:09 PM, David and Catherine Allin wrote:
                 
                Regrettably as the years start creeping up a switch from sail to power becomes more and more inevitable, if one wishes to maintain the cruising life. Once one has experienced, and become used to Sabre quality, it is surely nice to think that we can remain on the water still in a Sabre.  Getting our S402 ready each fall for our annual six month winter cruise in the Bahamas (Canadian snow birds!) is becoming more and more of a chore now both of us are over 70, as is putting her away in the spring as we have just completed.  

                So... I must take exception to your characterisation of the demographics of those who wish to purchase a Sabre trawler etc.  Virtually all our power boat cruising friends are ex long term sailors who wish to continue the  life but don't have the health/strength or whatever to continue sailing.    Having spent the last fifty plus years at sea/on the sea or just mucking about in boats I will accept the characterisation "old dude" but I do not accept high end play toys .....  a boat of a certain quality is a neccessity and a way of life for my wife and I !!  Cheers.   

                David & Catherine Allin
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~_/)~~~~~~~~
                svsolitaire1@...
                http://svsolitaire1.blogspot.com






                 
                 

                 

                 

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