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RE: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues

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  • JOHN CALLIS
    I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem. I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely empty the bilge, but I
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 7 6:24 AM
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      I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.

      I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely  empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.

      I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge.  It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming. 

      Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime.  I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.

      John
      S34 MKII


      On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:

         I just took the thing out altogether.  Fixed the problem.


      Tom

    • Alan Pressman
      I also experienced the same problem. No water exiting the stern tube, pump running. Try disconnecting the hose from the anti syphon valve, and be sure the
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 7 6:30 AM
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        I also experienced the same problem.  No water exiting the stern tube, pump running.  Try disconnecting the hose from the anti syphon valve, and be sure the pump is actually pumping.  Mine was.  Anti syphon valve was replaced and system returns to normal with dry bilge and water exiting stern tube as per design.

        Alan 
        Windswept S 34 #430


        On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:24 AM, JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...> wrote:
         

        I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.

        I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely  empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.

        I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge.  It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming. 

        Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime.  I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.

        John
        S34 MKII


        On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:

           I just took the thing out altogether.  Fixed the problem.


        Tom




      • Jim Starkey
        A couple of things to think about. First, if the pump can t handle the piddling resistance of a check valve, something is sufficiently wrong that the pump will
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 7 9:36 AM
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          A couple of things to think about.  First, if the pump can't handle the piddling resistance of a check valve, something is sufficiently wrong that the pump will be useless in an emergency situation.  Even a pathetic excuse of a knockoff undersized pump should be able to blow through a thin rubber gasket.  I'd check the wiring and float switches first, and if I couldn't find the problem, replace the pump.  Second, the check valve is there so the boat won't sink if the pump outflow goes under water.  Normally, that doesn't happen.  If it does, you won't want a 1" tube streaming water into a boat already in trouble.

          In other words, removing safety equipment because something else is wrong is not always wise.

          -- The curmudgeon.


          On 4/7/13 9:24 AM, JOHN CALLIS wrote:
           
          I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.

          I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely  empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.

          I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge.  It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming. 

          Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime.  I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.

          John
          S34 MKII


          On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:

             I just took the thing out altogether.  Fixed the problem.


          Tom


        • Nick Sands
          I ve experienced this issue too , but without an anti-return valve, when the pump turns off, there would be enough water in the hose above the pump to cause
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 7 10:13 AM
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            I’ve experienced this issue too , but without an anti-return valve, when the pump turns off,  there would be enough water in the hose above the pump to cause the float switch to come on again, and the pump will cycle repeatedly – possibly leading to burnout, if you don’t empty the bilge after each rain (if you leave the boat for any length of time this could be difficult to maintain).

             

            Could a possible solution be to move the float switch higher so that the amount of water in the hose above the pump, once it drains back into the bilge, is not enough to trip the float switch?  When the boat is unattended, there would be up to that  much water in the bilge; on returning to the boat manually turn on the pump to dry the bilge out; good to go until the next rain.

             

            No anti-return valve, no pump cycling, but down-side is water level in bilge higher until you manually engage bilge pump.

             

            Nick

            Escapade S402

             

             

            From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Pressman
            Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 6:30 AM
            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues

             

             

            I also experienced the same problem.  No water exiting the stern tube, pump running.  Try disconnecting the hose from the anti syphon valve, and be sure the pump is actually pumping.  Mine was.  Anti syphon valve was replaced and system returns to normal with dry bilge and water exiting stern tube as per design.

             

            Alan 

            Windswept S 34 #430

             

            On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:24 AM, JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...> wrote:

             

            I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.

             

            I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely  empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.

             

            I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge.  It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming. 

             

            Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime.  I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.

             

            John

            S34 MKII

             

            On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:

             

               I just took the thing out altogether.  Fixed the problem.

             

            Tom

             



             

          • Roger Yahoo
            A little different analysis. I have Rule 2000 and it can pump copious amounts of water but ZERO air. If you have a completely dry bilge the check valve may
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 7 10:14 AM
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              A little different analysis.

              I have Rule 2000 and it can pump copious amounts of water but ZERO air. If you have a completely dry bilge the check valve may prevent air from clearing the bilge pump. Possibly an air bubble is surrounding the centrifugal impeller. This is not a positive displacement pump. (Make sure you have a non-sticking check valve.)

              I have used a hose to pressure wash the bilge and kicked up enough air to block the flow. Of course there are lots of other causes already mentioned.

              Roger
            • Roger Yahoo
              My 402 always has enough water in the bilge to cover the impeller and I do not have the problem. (except when cleaning the bilge). My float switch must be
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 7 10:28 AM
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                My 402 always has enough water in the bilge to cover the impeller and I do not have the problem. (except when cleaning the bilge). My float switch must be higher than Nick's. Living in Florida I don't have to worry about freezing.

                Roger
              • Allison Lehman
                Nick the check valve was standard in the 402s from the factory to prevent that problem of cycling. I would recommend putting one in so you can sleep at night
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 7 11:35 AM
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                  Nick the check valve was standard in the 402s from the factory to prevent that problem of cycling. I would recommend putting one in so you can sleep at night knowing your bilge pump is in auto mode.  If I remember correctly, they used a standard one off the shelf from Home Depot 

                  Allison Lehman
                  Yachtfinders/Windseakers
                  510 912-5800 cell
                  510 860-4640 fax


                  P Please consider the environment before printing this email






                  On Apr 7, 2013, at 10:13 AM, "Nick Sands" <npsands@...> wrote:

                   

                  I’ve experienced this issue too , but without an anti-return valve, when the pump turns off,  there would be enough water in the hose above the pump to cause the float switch to come on again, and the pump will cycle repeatedly – possibly leading to burnout, if you don’t empty the bilge after each rain (if you leave the boat for any length of time this could be difficult to maintain).

                   

                  Could a possible solution be to move the float switch higher so that the amount of water in the hose above the pump, once it drains back into the bilge, is not enough to trip the float switch?  When the boat is unattended, there would be up to that  much water in the bilge; on returning to the boat manually turn on the pump to dry the bilge out; good to go until the next rain.

                   

                  No anti-return valve, no pump cycling, but down-side is water level in bilge higher until you manually engage bilge pump.

                   

                  Nick

                  Escapade S402

                   

                   

                  From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Pressman
                  Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 6:30 AM
                  To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues

                   

                   

                  I also experienced the same problem.  No water exiting the stern tube, pump running.  Try disconnecting the hose from the anti syphon valve, and be sure the pump is actually pumping.  Mine was.  Anti syphon valve was replaced and system returns to normal with dry bilge and water exiting stern tube as per design.

                   

                  Alan 

                  Windswept S 34 #430

                   

                  On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:24 AM, JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...> wrote:

                   

                  I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.

                   

                  I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely  empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.

                   

                  I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge.  It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming. 

                   

                  Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime.  I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.

                   

                  John

                  S34 MKII

                   

                  On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:

                   

                     I just took the thing out altogether.  Fixed the problem.

                   

                  Tom

                   



                   


                  <image002.jpg><image001.jpg>

                • Roger B
                  I replaced mine at Home Depot years ago. Used on sump pumps. If you ever need to replace pick one that you can easily blow air through in the direction of the
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 7 12:46 PM
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                    I replaced mine at Home Depot years ago. Used on sump pumps. If you ever need to replace pick one that you can easily blow air through in the direction of the arrow.

                    Roger 402
                  • sailor11767
                    Simply raising the switch, in a confined bilge sump, doesn t help -- the water between on and off remains the same. If you get a new-fangled type with
                    Message 9 of 26 , Apr 7 1:13 PM
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                      Simply raising the switch, in a confined bilge sump, doesn't help -- the water between on and off remains the same.

                      If you get a new-fangled type with adjustable set points, you can widen the spread, and that will do the trick.

                      On my boat, I'm preparing to put in a second electric bilge pump, with a 1.25" hose. No check valve, in accordance with mfgr and ABYC recommendations. Problem is, in 1.25" hose, that is a LOT of water! Since this is only a "something is wrong" pump, I really don't care how deep the water is with it. So I'm going to raise the switch, like you suggest. The deal here is I will raise it until the water comes out of the sump, and into the main bilge area. If there is 1/2" of water above the sump for it to kick on, that will be much more water than the hose holds. Not a good solution for the main pump, but just fine for a secondary pump.

                      Harry

                      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Sands" <npsands@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I've experienced this issue too , but without an anti-return valve, when the
                      > pump turns off, there would be enough water in the hose above the pump to
                      > cause the float switch to come on again, and the pump will cycle repeatedly
                      > - possibly leading to burnout, if you don't empty the bilge after each rain
                      > (if you leave the boat for any length of time this could be difficult to
                      > maintain).
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Could a possible solution be to move the float switch higher so that the
                      > amount of water in the hose above the pump, once it drains back into the
                      > bilge, is not enough to trip the float switch? When the boat is unattended,
                      > there would be up to that much water in the bilge; on returning to the boat
                      > manually turn on the pump to dry the bilge out; good to go until the next
                      > rain.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > No anti-return valve, no pump cycling, but down-side is water level in bilge
                      > higher until you manually engage bilge pump.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Nick
                      >
                      > Escapade S402
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com]
                      > On Behalf Of Alan Pressman
                      > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 6:30 AM
                      > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I also experienced the same problem. No water exiting the stern tube, pump
                      > running. Try disconnecting the hose from the anti syphon valve, and be sure
                      > the pump is actually pumping. Mine was. Anti syphon valve was replaced and
                      > system returns to normal with dry bilge and water exiting stern tube as per
                      > design.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Alan
                      >
                      > Windswept S 34 #430
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:24 AM, JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely empty the
                      > bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge
                      > drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the
                      > valve to drain into the bilge. It then creates a air pocket between the
                      > valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime. I took it out two
                      > years ago and it has worked every time since.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > John
                      >
                      > S34 MKII
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I just took the thing out altogether. Fixed the problem.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Tom
                      >
                    • jack horner
                      Sometimes debris as small as 1/2 a toothpick can defeat a one way valve.  Been there ! Thats why god made spares !~happy sailing........ Lee
                      Message 10 of 26 , Apr 7 1:55 PM
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                        Sometimes debris as small as 1/2 a toothpick can defeat a one way valve.  Been there ! Thats why god made spares !~happy sailing........ Lee



                        From: JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...>
                        To: sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 9:24 AM
                        Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues

                         
                        I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.

                        I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely  empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.

                        I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge.  It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming. 

                        Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime.  I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.

                        John
                        S34 MKII


                        On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:

                           I just took the thing out altogether.  Fixed the problem.


                        Tom



                      • Dan Trainor
                        I always had problems with the check-valve thing, either re-cycling or airlock or the flap gumming up over time. So I don t use one now. I just do the old
                        Message 11 of 26 , Apr 7 2:15 PM
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                          I always had problems with the check-valve thing, either re-cycling or airlock or the flap gumming up over time.  So I don't use one now.  I just do the old fashion bucket with Sponge to keep bilge drier / less water.  I use a small rule 500 with built-in float, works good.  But, never believe it would be useful for keeping up with water ingress if in the event the boat is leaking.  For that problem, I am relying on preventive maintenance of hoses, seacocks, etc to reduce the risk.  I have thought about rigging a large primary bilge pump, but I think it would have to be a whopper of a pump to keep up in case of an emergency like that.  And there is always the possibility that the leak happens when you not actually on the boat and not plugged into shore power, so you would run out of juice anyway.  But, anyway check-valves - I would like to get one to work reliably but haven't had much consistent success over the years.  My 2 cents.  Dan



                          On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 4:13 PM, sailor11767 <sailor11767@...> wrote:
                           

                          Simply raising the switch, in a confined bilge sump, doesn't help -- the water between on and off remains the same.

                          If you get a new-fangled type with adjustable set points, you can widen the spread, and that will do the trick.

                          On my boat, I'm preparing to put in a second electric bilge pump, with a 1.25" hose. No check valve, in accordance with mfgr and ABYC recommendations. Problem is, in 1.25" hose, that is a LOT of water! Since this is only a "something is wrong" pump, I really don't care how deep the water is with it. So I'm going to raise the switch, like you suggest. The deal here is I will raise it until the water comes out of the sump, and into the main bilge area. If there is 1/2" of water above the sump for it to kick on, that will be much more water than the hose holds. Not a good solution for the main pump, but just fine for a secondary pump.

                          Harry



                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Sands" <npsands@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I've experienced this issue too , but without an anti-return valve, when the
                          > pump turns off, there would be enough water in the hose above the pump to
                          > cause the float switch to come on again, and the pump will cycle repeatedly
                          > - possibly leading to burnout, if you don't empty the bilge after each rain
                          > (if you leave the boat for any length of time this could be difficult to
                          > maintain).
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Could a possible solution be to move the float switch higher so that the
                          > amount of water in the hose above the pump, once it drains back into the
                          > bilge, is not enough to trip the float switch? When the boat is unattended,
                          > there would be up to that much water in the bilge; on returning to the boat
                          > manually turn on the pump to dry the bilge out; good to go until the next
                          > rain.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > No anti-return valve, no pump cycling, but down-side is water level in bilge
                          > higher until you manually engage bilge pump.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Nick
                          >
                          > Escapade S402
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com]
                          > On Behalf Of Alan Pressman
                          > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 6:30 AM
                          > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I also experienced the same problem. No water exiting the stern tube, pump
                          > running. Try disconnecting the hose from the anti syphon valve, and be sure
                          > the pump is actually pumping. Mine was. Anti syphon valve was replaced and
                          > system returns to normal with dry bilge and water exiting stern tube as per
                          > design.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Alan
                          >
                          > Windswept S 34 #430
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:24 AM, JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely empty the
                          > bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge
                          > drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the
                          > valve to drain into the bilge. It then creates a air pocket between the
                          > valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime. I took it out two
                          > years ago and it has worked every time since.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > John
                          >
                          > S34 MKII
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I just took the thing out altogether. Fixed the problem.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Tom
                          >




                          --
                          Dan
                        • Godwin Jones
                          I have diagnosed the problem as getting air trapped under the pump. If I bail the water out of the bilge to below pump level, when the water level comes back
                          Message 12 of 26 , Apr 7 2:16 PM
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                            I have diagnosed the problem as getting air trapped under the pump.  If I bail the water out of the bilge to below pump level, when the water level comes back up, the pump will run but no water will move.  If I then shake the pump while it runs, it will kick out the ain't bubble an pump fine.  Not a secure situation to bail out the bilge in late fall and hope the pump will do its job when the water level rises.  Mine will not until I mess with it.

                            Godwin
                            Bojangles. S34

                            Sent from my iPad

                            On Apr 7, 2013, at 4:55 PM, jack horner <captbluwater@...> wrote:

                             

                            Sometimes debris as small as 1/2 a toothpick can defeat a one way valve.  Been there ! Thats why god made spares !~happy sailing........ Lee



                            From: JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...>
                            To: sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 9:24 AM
                            Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues

                             
                            I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.

                            I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely  empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.

                            I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge.  It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming. 

                            Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime.  I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.

                            John
                            S34 MKII


                            On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:

                               I just took the thing out altogether.  Fixed the problem.


                            Tom



                          • Stephen
                            I had the same problem-pump motor ran but wouldn t pump. Disconnected hose, still not pumping. When I turned the pump over and it completely filled with
                            Message 13 of 26 , Apr 7 2:55 PM
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                              I had the same problem-pump motor ran but wouldn't pump. Disconnected hose, still not pumping. When I turned the pump over and it completely filled with water, it started to pump fine. Next time it ran dry, it wouldn't pump. I think somewhere there is a passage that allows the air to escape that gets blocked and the pumps become air bound.
                            • Douglas
                              My solution to this problem was to drill a tiny hole in the elbow facing the bilge just before the check valve. Air leaks out the hole allowing water to rise
                              Message 14 of 26 , Apr 9 10:36 AM
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                                My solution to this problem was to drill a tiny hole in the elbow facing the bilge just before the check valve. Air leaks out the hole allowing water to rise in the bilge hose to the level of the water in the bilge when the bilge pump is off. When the bilge pump starts, the remaining air between the pump and the check valve is pushed out and the resulting water hammer that hits the check valve pops it open with a great deal of force. As the pump runs, water is sprayed from the hole back into the bilge but the amount is infinitesimal compared to the amount pumped from the bilge. When the bilge pump stops, the check valve closes and only the small amount of water between the check valve and the pump flows back into the bilge due to air entering the hole that was drilled. The air entering helps keep the hole clear of any debris that may lodge in it while the pump is running.

                                So far (one season), this simple easy fix has worked like a charm. I have had no problems.


                                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Jones <sailbojangles@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I have diagnosed the problem as getting air trapped under the pump. If I bail the water out of the bilge to below pump level, when the water level comes back up, the pump will run but no water will move. If I then shake the pump while it runs, it will kick out the ain't bubble an pump fine. Not a secure situation to bail out the bilge in late fall and hope the pump will do its job when the water level rises. Mine will not until I mess with it.
                                >
                                > Godwin
                                > Bojangles. S34
                                >
                                > Sent from my iPad
                                >
                                > On Apr 7, 2013, at 4:55 PM, jack horner <captbluwater@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > Sometimes debris as small as 1/2 a toothpick can defeat a one way valve. Been there ! Thats why god made spares !~happy sailing........ Lee
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > From: JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...>
                                > > To: sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 9:24 AM
                                > > Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.
                                > >
                                > > I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.
                                > >
                                > > I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge. It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming.
                                > >
                                > > Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime. I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.
                                > >
                                > > John
                                > > S34 MKII
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I just took the thing out altogether. Fixed the problem.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Tom
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Douglas
                                My solution to this problem was to drill a tiny hole in the elbow facing the bilge just before the check valve. Air leaks out the hole allowing water to rise
                                Message 15 of 26 , Apr 9 10:36 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  My solution to this problem was to drill a tiny hole in the elbow facing the bilge just before the check valve. Air leaks out the hole allowing water to rise in the bilge hose to the level of the water in the bilge when the bilge pump is off. When the bilge pump starts, the remaining air between the pump and the check valve is pushed out and the resulting water hammer that hits the check valve pops it open with a great deal of force. As the pump runs, water is sprayed from the hole back into the bilge but the amount is infinitesimal compared to the amount pumped from the bilge. When the bilge pump stops, the check valve closes and only the small amount of water between the check valve and the pump flows back into the bilge due to air entering the hole that was drilled. The air entering helps keep the hole clear of any debris that may lodge in it while the pump is running.

                                  So far (one season), this simple easy fix has worked like a charm. I have had no problems.


                                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Jones <sailbojangles@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I have diagnosed the problem as getting air trapped under the pump. If I bail the water out of the bilge to below pump level, when the water level comes back up, the pump will run but no water will move. If I then shake the pump while it runs, it will kick out the ain't bubble an pump fine. Not a secure situation to bail out the bilge in late fall and hope the pump will do its job when the water level rises. Mine will not until I mess with it.
                                  >
                                  > Godwin
                                  > Bojangles. S34
                                  >
                                  > Sent from my iPad
                                  >
                                  > On Apr 7, 2013, at 4:55 PM, jack horner <captbluwater@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Sometimes debris as small as 1/2 a toothpick can defeat a one way valve. Been there ! Thats why god made spares !~happy sailing........ Lee
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > From: JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...>
                                  > > To: sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 9:24 AM
                                  > > Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.
                                  > >
                                  > > I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.
                                  > >
                                  > > I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge. It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming.
                                  > >
                                  > > Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime. I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.
                                  > >
                                  > > John
                                  > > S34 MKII
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I just took the thing out altogether. Fixed the problem.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Tom
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Douglas
                                  My solution to this problem was to drill a tiny hole in the elbow facing the bilge just before the check valve. Air leaks out the hole allowing water to rise
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Apr 9 10:36 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    My solution to this problem was to drill a tiny hole in the elbow facing the bilge just before the check valve. Air leaks out the hole allowing water to rise in the bilge hose to the level of the water in the bilge when the bilge pump is off. When the bilge pump starts, the remaining air between the pump and the check valve is pushed out and the resulting water hammer that hits the check valve pops it open with a great deal of force. As the pump runs, water is sprayed from the hole back into the bilge but the amount is infinitesimal compared to the amount pumped from the bilge. When the bilge pump stops, the check valve closes and only the small amount of water between the check valve and the pump flows back into the bilge due to air entering the hole that was drilled. The air entering helps keep the hole clear of any debris that may lodge in it while the pump is running.

                                    So far (one season), this simple easy fix has worked like a charm. I have had no problems.


                                    --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Jones <sailbojangles@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I have diagnosed the problem as getting air trapped under the pump. If I bail the water out of the bilge to below pump level, when the water level comes back up, the pump will run but no water will move. If I then shake the pump while it runs, it will kick out the ain't bubble an pump fine. Not a secure situation to bail out the bilge in late fall and hope the pump will do its job when the water level rises. Mine will not until I mess with it.
                                    >
                                    > Godwin
                                    > Bojangles. S34
                                    >
                                    > Sent from my iPad
                                    >
                                    > On Apr 7, 2013, at 4:55 PM, jack horner <captbluwater@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Sometimes debris as small as 1/2 a toothpick can defeat a one way valve. Been there ! Thats why god made spares !~happy sailing........ Lee
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...>
                                    > > To: sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 9:24 AM
                                    > > Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.
                                    > >
                                    > > I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.
                                    > >
                                    > > I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge. It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming.
                                    > >
                                    > > Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime. I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.
                                    > >
                                    > > John
                                    > > S34 MKII
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I just took the thing out altogether. Fixed the problem.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Tom
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Dan Trainor
                                    Ah Brilliant! ... -- Dan
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Apr 9 10:45 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Ah Brilliant!


                                      On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Douglas <dphart2001@...> wrote:
                                       


                                      My solution to this problem was to drill a tiny hole in the elbow facing the bilge just before the check valve. Air leaks out the hole allowing water to rise in the bilge hose to the level of the water in the bilge when the bilge pump is off. When the bilge pump starts, the remaining air between the pump and the check valve is pushed out and the resulting water hammer that hits the check valve pops it open with a great deal of force. As the pump runs, water is sprayed from the hole back into the bilge but the amount is infinitesimal compared to the amount pumped from the bilge. When the bilge pump stops, the check valve closes and only the small amount of water between the check valve and the pump flows back into the bilge due to air entering the hole that was drilled. The air entering helps keep the hole clear of any debris that may lodge in it while the pump is running.

                                      So far (one season), this simple easy fix has worked like a charm. I have had no problems.



                                      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Jones <sailbojangles@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I have diagnosed the problem as getting air trapped under the pump. If I bail the water out of the bilge to below pump level, when the water level comes back up, the pump will run but no water will move. If I then shake the pump while it runs, it will kick out the ain't bubble an pump fine. Not a secure situation to bail out the bilge in late fall and hope the pump will do its job when the water level rises. Mine will not until I mess with it.
                                      >
                                      > Godwin
                                      > Bojangles. S34
                                      >
                                      > Sent from my iPad
                                      >
                                      > On Apr 7, 2013, at 4:55 PM, jack horner <captbluwater@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Sometimes debris as small as 1/2 a toothpick can defeat a one way valve. Been there ! Thats why god made spares !~happy sailing........ Lee
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > From: JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...>

                                      > > To: sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 9:24 AM
                                      > > Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.
                                      > >
                                      > > I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.
                                      > >
                                      > > I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge. It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming.
                                      > >
                                      > > Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime. I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.
                                      > >
                                      > > John
                                      > > S34 MKII
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I just took the thing out altogether. Fixed the problem.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Tom
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >




                                      --
                                      Dan
                                    • rabrown10
                                      Seems like you should get an award for this solution. Great diagnosis and implementation. . Roger.
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Apr 9 2:12 PM
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                                        Seems like you should get an award for this solution. Great diagnosis and implementation. .

                                        Roger.

                                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <dphart2001@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > My solution to this problem was to drill a tiny hole in the elbow facing the bilge just before the check valve. Air leaks out the hole allowing water to rise in the bilge hose to the level of the water in the bilge when the bilge pump is off. When the bilge pump starts, the remaining air between the pump and the check valve is pushed out and the resulting water hammer that hits the check valve pops it open with a great deal of force. As the pump runs, water is sprayed from the hole back into the bilge but the amount is infinitesimal compared to the amount pumped from the bilge. When the bilge pump stops, the check valve closes and only the small amount of water between the check valve and the pump flows back into the bilge due to air entering the hole that was drilled. The air entering helps keep the hole clear of any debris that may lodge in it while the pump is running.
                                        >
                                        > So far (one season), this simple easy fix has worked like a charm. I have had no problems.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Jones <sailbojangles@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I have diagnosed the problem as getting air trapped under the pump. If I bail the water out of the bilge to below pump level, when the water level comes back up, the pump will run but no water will move. If I then shake the pump while it runs, it will kick out the ain't bubble an pump fine. Not a secure situation to bail out the bilge in late fall and hope the pump will do its job when the water level rises. Mine will not until I mess with it.
                                        > >
                                        > > Godwin
                                        > > Bojangles. S34
                                        > >
                                        > > Sent from my iPad
                                        > >
                                        > > On Apr 7, 2013, at 4:55 PM, jack horner <captbluwater@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > Sometimes debris as small as 1/2 a toothpick can defeat a one way valve. Been there ! Thats why god made spares !~happy sailing........ Lee
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > From: JOHN CALLIS <jsts@>
                                        > > > To: sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 9:24 AM
                                        > > > Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge. It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime. I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > John
                                        > > > S34 MKII
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I just took the thing out altogether. Fixed the problem.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Tom
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Barend Brink
                                        I agree!! I have tried everything else over the last 2 years (new 3 way switch, new wiring, new bilge pump, new non-return valve, new bilge pump switch).
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Apr 9 2:16 PM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I agree!!  I have tried everything else over the last 2 years (new 3 way switch, new wiring, new bilge pump, new non-return valve, new bilge pump switch).  Thanks to you I now have something new to try.
                                           
                                          From the responses to this thread, you just made 10 other people very happy too.  :-)
                                           
                                          Regards
                                          //Barend (Yen Shon, 1989 S34II #376)
                                           

                                          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: rabrown10@...
                                          Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:12:42 +0000
                                          Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues

                                           
                                          Seems like you should get an award for this solution. Great diagnosis and implementation. .

                                          Roger.

                                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <dphart2001@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > My solution to this problem was to drill a tiny hole in the elbow facing the bilge just before the check valve. Air leaks out the hole allowing water to rise in the bilge hose to the level of the water in the bilge when the bilge pump is off. When the bilge pump starts, the remaining air between the pump and the check valve is pushed out and the resulting water hammer that hits the check valve pops it open with a great deal of force. As the pump runs, water is sprayed from the hole back into the bilge but the amount is infinitesimal compared to the amount pumped from the bilge. When the bilge pump stops, the check valve closes and only the small amount of water between the check valve and the pump flows back into the bilge due to air entering the hole that was drilled. The air entering helps keep the hole clear of any debris that may lodge in it while the pump is running.
                                          >
                                          > So far (one season), this simple easy fix has worked like a charm. I have had no problems.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Jones <sailbojangles@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I have diagnosed the problem as getting air trapped under the pump. If I bail the water out of the bilge to below pump level, when the water level comes back up, the pump will run but no water will move. If I then shake the pump while it runs, it will kick out the ain't bubble an pump fine. Not a secure situation to bail out the bilge in late fall and hope the pump will do its job when the water level rises. Mine will not until I mess with it.
                                          > >
                                          > > Godwin
                                          > > Bojangles. S34
                                          > >
                                          > > Sent from my iPad
                                          > >
                                          > > On Apr 7, 2013, at 4:55 PM, jack horner <captbluwater@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > Sometimes debris as small as 1/2 a toothpick can defeat a one way valve. Been there ! Thats why god made spares !~happy sailing........ Lee
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > From: JOHN CALLIS <jsts@>
                                          > > > To: sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 9:24 AM
                                          > > > Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge. It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime. I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > John
                                          > > > S34 MKII
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I just took the thing out altogether. Fixed the problem.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Tom
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >


                                        • THOMASJ
                                          In my new 1985 S34 my electric bilge pump needs to be toggled several times before I hear the sound of sucking water. Sometimes I hear the pump go on but no
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Apr 9 2:48 PM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            In my "new" 1985 S34 my electric bilge pump needs to be toggled several times before I hear the sound of sucking water. Sometimes I hear the pump go on but no water is being sucked out. I like your idea and will try that! Thanks

                                            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Barend Brink <barendb@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I agree!! I have tried everything else over the last 2 years (new 3 way switch, new wiring, new bilge pump, new non-return valve, new bilge pump switch). Thanks to you I now have something new to try.
                                            >
                                            > From the responses to this thread, you just made 10 other people very happy too. :-)
                                            >
                                            > Regards
                                            > //Barend (Yen Shon, 1989 S34II #376)
                                            >
                                            > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                            > From: rabrown10@...
                                            > Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:12:42 +0000
                                            > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Seems like you should get an award for this solution. Great diagnosis and implementation. .
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Roger.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <dphart2001@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > My solution to this problem was to drill a tiny hole in the elbow facing the bilge just before the check valve. Air leaks out the hole allowing water to rise in the bilge hose to the level of the water in the bilge when the bilge pump is off. When the bilge pump starts, the remaining air between the pump and the check valve is pushed out and the resulting water hammer that hits the check valve pops it open with a great deal of force. As the pump runs, water is sprayed from the hole back into the bilge but the amount is infinitesimal compared to the amount pumped from the bilge. When the bilge pump stops, the check valve closes and only the small amount of water between the check valve and the pump flows back into the bilge due to air entering the hole that was drilled. The air entering helps keep the hole clear of any debris that may lodge in it while the pump is running.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > So far (one season), this simple easy fix has worked like a charm. I have had no problems.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Jones <sailbojangles@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > I have diagnosed the problem as getting air trapped under the pump. If I bail the water out of the bilge to below pump level, when the water level comes back up, the pump will run but no water will move. If I then shake the pump while it runs, it will kick out the ain't bubble an pump fine. Not a secure situation to bail out the bilge in late fall and hope the pump will do its job when the water level rises. Mine will not until I mess with it.
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > Godwin
                                            >
                                            > > > Bojangles. S34
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > Sent from my iPad
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > On Apr 7, 2013, at 4:55 PM, jack horner <captbluwater@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > Sometimes debris as small as 1/2 a toothpick can defeat a one way valve. Been there ! Thats why god made spares !~happy sailing........ Lee
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > From: JOHN CALLIS <jsts@>
                                            >
                                            > > > > To: sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 9:24 AM
                                            >
                                            > > > > Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Re: Electric bilge pump issues
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > I had the same problem, and removing the return valve fixed the problem.
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > I miss the anti return valve as the pump can not completely empty the bilge, but I dealt with that problem by fixing all my leaks and sponge drying my bilge after rain water comes down the mast.
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > I think the anti return valve allows the water between the pump and the valve to drain into the bilge. It then creates a air pocket between the valve and the pump which prevents the pump from properly priming.
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > Its not worth the risk of not having the pump prime. I took it out two years ago and it has worked every time since.
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > John
                                            >
                                            > > > > S34 MKII
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Thomas Wanderer wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > I just took the thing out altogether. Fixed the problem.
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > Tom
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • christopher
                                            Excellent!
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Apr 10 7:29 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Excellent!

                                              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <dphart2001@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > My solution to this problem was to drill a tiny hole in the elbow facing the bilge just before the check valve. Air leaks out the hole allowing water to rise in the bilge hose to the level of the water in the bilge when the bilge pump is off. When the bilge pump starts, the remaining air between the pump and the check valve is pushed out and the resulting water hammer that hits the check valve pops it open with a great deal of force. As the pump runs, water is sprayed from the hole back into the bilge but the amount is infinitesimal compared to the amount pumped from the bilge. When the bilge pump stops, the check valve closes and only the small amount of water between the check valve and the pump flows back into the bilge due to air entering the hole that was drilled. The air entering helps keep the hole clear of any debris that may lodge in it while the pump is running.
                                              >
                                              > So far (one season), this simple easy fix has worked like a charm. I have had no problems.
                                              >
                                              >
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