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Re: Delaminated Rudder on Sabre 38-2

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  • navip11
    Joe, Thank you for your advice. I think it is spot on. Especially with maintaining the quality control. I am going to suggest this, but I worry that we may
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 3, 2013
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      Joe,

      Thank you for your advice. I think it is spot on. Especially with maintaining the quality control. I am going to suggest this, but I worry that we may have the old tug-o-war about price reduction. Notwithstanding the seller will need to complete this repair no matter who buys it, he may be reluctant to make the full price reduction....

      AJ

      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <cbr_deuce@...> wrote:
      >
      > AJ,
      >
      > I agree with Bob, but I would start by deducting the cost of a new rudder from Sabre. Once you own the boat you can cut the old rudder open, you did say it was de-laminated not just wet, and decide what to do then. Either way you go you will have quality control since you own it. I would hesitate to have the yard fix something I didn't own. And the lower sale price will save on taxes if you need to pay them.
      >
      > My rudder has been fine....knock on wood.
      >
      > Post some pictures of it.
      >
      > Joe
      > s/v Voila
      > S38mkII #174
      >
      > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Bob Marthaler <bmarth12@> wrote:
      > >
      > > RJ,
      > >  
      > >    My first thought is to take the yard repair estimate to the owner and negotiate an adjustment in the total boat price, then take that amount 'saved' and put it towards a new rudder from Sabre. This will give you peace of mind and get you in the water faster, assuming Sabre has your replacement on hand.
      > >  
      > >    Let me point out that I have no idea what the cost of repair versus new is.
      > >  
      > > Bob Marthaler
      > > Shimako S 30 II
      > > Kenosha, WI 
      > >
      > > From: navip11 <navip11@>
      > > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 7:54 AM
      > > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Delaminated Rudder on Sabre 38-2
      > >
      > >  
      > > Hi all,
      > >
      > > Just concluded our survey on a 1994 38-2, biggest concern is a wet/DE-laminated rudder. Looks as though there is a crack in the forward section of the rudder under the post. The starboard side is pretty bad and the surveyor said it was mandatory to fix before sailing.
      > >
      > > I recall someone taking this on a while back but was unable to find the post.
      > >
      > > In working to get this repaired one option was suggested by broker (who has not yet discussed the matter with seller), a.) have the yard repair it and b.) the surveyor suggested contacting Sabre for info on obtaining a new one.
      > >
      > > I am already getting the feeling from the brokers reaction to the news that they would prefer the yard to do the repair (obviously less expensive). Not knowing much about this I am seeking opinions:
      > >
      > > 1. Is this "common" ?
      > >
      > > 2. Anyone care to share personal experience with this?
      > >
      > > 3. If the yard conducts the repair, what should be done?
      > >
      > > 4. I have a concern on having to wait until July to sail, I am waiting on a estimate request from the local yard on repair estimates/time frame. The local yard seems fantastic, but as it is too far from my home base for me to consider in the future, I couldn't blame the yard for putting their "regular" customers first.
      > >
      > > 5. If the yard supplies an estimate, I would like the seller to pay for it directly. This would avoid any issues on my end with additional charges once the rudder is opened up. I have no reason to think this would happen, but I would very much like to avoid having X dollars reduced from the purchase price based on an estimate and then the repair ends up being more due to an unforeseen circumstance. I thought of perhaps suggesting es rowing some proceeds as an alternative.
      > >
      > > Thanks to those who have read through this and their anticipated wisdom to this nervous buyer!
      > >
      > > AJ
      > >
      >
    • Allison Lehman
      AJ, First let me say I agree with Jim, open it up and let the yard access it. I am not sure that Sabre has new rudders as they don t usually keep molds for
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 3, 2013
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        AJ, 
        First let me  say I agree with Jim, open it up and let the yard access it.  I am not sure that Sabre has new rudders as they don't usually keep molds for discontinued models, but it is worth checking. 
        As for the costs, there is a third way to deal with the issue of responsibility.  You will be hard pressed to get the seller to "pay for the job" as they want out of  boat ownership.  Get an estimate from the yard and add some to it.  Then suggest to your broker to hold, that amount in escrow until the job is complete.  That way the seller gets the lion share of his monies so he is happy and you get the repair you want.  You will need to put some language in the agreement stating the scope of the job and what needs to happen if the rudder post is bad.  THis way you can take ownership and start on the things you want to do, while the yard is fixing the rudder.

        Good luck,
        Allison


        A




        On Apr 3, 2013, at 8:37 AM, navip11 <navip11@...> wrote:

         

        Jim,

        Thanks for the information on stainless.

        Everything you said makes sense, however its not so much the water I am concerned about. Its the delamination. Which could cause the post to come lose resulting in no steerage. At a minimum I think we are going to have the rudder opened up for investigation, then reglassed.

        Again I appreciate the input and I feel somewhat better about the situation.

        There is still the timing issue of getting this taken care of prior to a launch.

        Cheers

        AJ

        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jim@...> wrote:
        >
        > Crevice corrosion is a subtle phenomenon. What makes stainless steel
        > "stainless" is a very thin oxide layer that protects the underlying
        > metal. Under some conditions, the layer degrades and needs to be
        > replenished by oxygen. Both air and water have enough oxygen to do the
        > trick, so stainless remains stainless.
        >
        > In some places, most notably where the rudder post enters the sealed
        > rudder, there is a small area that is wet but stagnant (i.e. the water
        > becomes deoxygenated) and the oxide layer is perturbed but starved of
        > oxygen. This is where crevice corrosion occurs.
        >
        > Sabre originally compensated by using particularly thick walled rudder
        > posts, but eventually gave up and cut over to carbon fiber rudder
        > posts. If you have a stainless rudder post, it almost certainly has
        > some crevice corrosion. If it doesn't, look closer.
        >
        > I had the rudder dropped on my 36 about a decade ago for an inspection.
        > The materials engineer took a careful look and said it indeed had some
        > crevice corrosion, he would have been shocked if it didn't, but the
        > depth of pits were insignificant relative to the wall thickness. A
        > subsequent conversation between the yard and Sabre reached the same result.
        >
        > A wet rudder isn't going to cause crevice corrosion in either fresh or
        > salt water. If a crack is big enough to let water it, it's probably big
        > enough to let oxygenated water circulate.
        >
        > I don't think that water in the a rudder is grounds to automatically
        > condemn the rudder. Drying it out is probably sufficient, but if you're
        > deeply concerned, have a yard open it up and take a careful look. Then
        > glass it up and go sailing.
        >
        > This advice doesn't generalize. Early Tartans had rudders with a
        > stainless post and mild steel ribs. When water got into those, the two
        > types of steel went to war against each other.
        >
        > On 4/3/2013 9:14 AM, Dave Lochner wrote:
        > >
        > > AJ,
        > >
        > >
        > > My S30 rudder was full of water that froze and cracked the bottom of
        > > the rudder open.
        > >
        > > I took it off and treated it as if it was wet core, drilled holes in
        > > the side and dried it out. Then filled the holes with West System and
        > > barrier coated it. Not a problem since.
        > >
        > > My boat is a freshwater boat. The concern for a wet rudder in salt
        > > water is crevice corrosion that could cause the SS skeleton to fail at
        > > an inopportune time. Graham's method would allow for inspection of the
        > > post and skeleton.
        > >
        > > Water enters the rudder through the joint between the rudder post and
        > > rudder. The differential expansion rates between fiberglass and SS
        > > makes it difficult to maintain a proper seal.
        > >
        > > Dave
        > >
        > >
        > > On Apr 3, 2013, at 9:07 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >> AJ
        > >> Mine had same crack on 34 MK1
        > >> I took it off and cut it open
        > >> My view is that although it isn't pretty there is little chance of a
        > >> failure
        > >> Stainless skeleton extends full width and depth of rudder
        > >> I replaced all the soggy and smelly foam.
        > >> Then I glassed it closed again.
        > >> Water still gets in through the post but crack is gone
        > >> Graham
        > >>
        > >> *From:* navip11 <navip11@... <mailto:navip11@...>>
        > >> *To:* Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        > >> <mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
        > >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2013 8:54:38 AM
        > >> *Subject:* [SabreSailboat] Delaminated Rudder on Sabre 38-2
        > >> Hi all,
        > >>
        > >> Just concluded our survey on a 1994 38-2, biggest concern is a
        > >> wet/DE-laminated rudder. Looks as though there is a crack in the
        > >> forward section of the rudder under the post. The starboard side is
        > >> pretty bad and the surveyor said it was mandatory to fix before sailing.
        > >>
        > >> I recall someone taking this on a while back but was unable to find
        > >> the post.
        > >>
        > >> In working to get this repaired one option was suggested by broker
        > >> (who has not yet discussed the matter with seller), a.) have the yard
        > >> repair it and b.) the surveyor suggested contacting Sabre for info on
        > >> obtaining a new one.
        > >>
        > >> I am already getting the feeling from the brokers reaction to the
        > >> news that they would prefer the yard to do the repair (obviously less
        > >> expensive). Not knowing much about this I am seeking opinions:
        > >>
        > >> 1. Is this "common" ?
        > >>
        > >> 2. Anyone care to share personal experience with this?
        > >>
        > >> 3. If the yard conducts the repair, what should be done?
        > >>
        > >> 4. I have a concern on having to wait until July to sail, I am
        > >> waiting on a estimate request from the local yard on repair
        > >> estimates/time frame. The local yard seems fantastic, but as it is
        > >> too far from my home base for me to consider in the future, I
        > >> couldn't blame the yard for putting their "regular" customers first.
        > >>
        > >> 5. If the yard supplies an estimate, I would like the seller to pay
        > >> for it directly. This would avoid any issues on my end with
        > >> additional charges once the rudder is opened up. I have no reason to
        > >> think this would happen, but I would very much like to avoid having X
        > >> dollars reduced from the purchase price based on an estimate and then
        > >> the repair ends up being more due to an unforeseen circumstance. I
        > >> thought of perhaps suggesting es rowing some proceeds as an alternative.
        > >>
        > >> Thanks to those who have read through this and their anticipated
        > >> wisdom to this nervous buyer!
        > >>
        > >> AJ
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        >


      • navip11
        Alison, Thanks for your reply. Another excellent idea. Should I agree to accept the boat, we already have an escrow agreement in place to allow for a close
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 3, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Alison,

          Thanks for your reply. Another excellent idea. Should I agree to accept the boat, we already have an escrow agreement in place to allow for a close before the sea-trail. If anything should be wrong with systems not tested during the on the hard part of the survey the escrow funds would cover this. I might suggest your approach asking that the rudder repair (if over the yard estimate) would be subject to the funds held in the escrow agreement. I was thinking that perhaps a few extra bucks could be added into the escrow funds to account for this.

          Again thanks,

          AJ

          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Allison Lehman <allison@...> wrote:
          >
          > AJ,
          > First let me say I agree with Jim, open it up and let the yard access it. I am not sure that Sabre has new rudders as they don't usually keep molds for discontinued models, but it is worth checking.
          > As for the costs, there is a third way to deal with the issue of responsibility. You will be hard pressed to get the seller to "pay for the job" as they want out of boat ownership. Get an estimate from the yard and add some to it. Then suggest to your broker to hold, that amount in escrow until the job is complete. That way the seller gets the lion share of his monies so he is happy and you get the repair you want. You will need to put some language in the agreement stating the scope of the job and what needs to happen if the rudder post is bad. THis way you can take ownership and start on the things you want to do, while the yard is fixing the rudder.
          >
          > Good luck,
          > Allison
          >
          >
          > A
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Apr 3, 2013, at 8:37 AM, navip11 <navip11@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Jim,
          > >
          > > Thanks for the information on stainless.
          > >
          > > Everything you said makes sense, however its not so much the water I am concerned about. Its the delamination. Which could cause the post to come lose resulting in no steerage. At a minimum I think we are going to have the rudder opened up for investigation, then reglassed.
          > >
          > > Again I appreciate the input and I feel somewhat better about the situation.
          > >
          > > There is still the timing issue of getting this taken care of prior to a launch.
          > >
          > > Cheers
          > >
          > > AJ
          > >
          > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jim@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Crevice corrosion is a subtle phenomenon. What makes stainless steel
          > > > "stainless" is a very thin oxide layer that protects the underlying
          > > > metal. Under some conditions, the layer degrades and needs to be
          > > > replenished by oxygen. Both air and water have enough oxygen to do the
          > > > trick, so stainless remains stainless.
          > > >
          > > > In some places, most notably where the rudder post enters the sealed
          > > > rudder, there is a small area that is wet but stagnant (i.e. the water
          > > > becomes deoxygenated) and the oxide layer is perturbed but starved of
          > > > oxygen. This is where crevice corrosion occurs.
          > > >
          > > > Sabre originally compensated by using particularly thick walled rudder
          > > > posts, but eventually gave up and cut over to carbon fiber rudder
          > > > posts. If you have a stainless rudder post, it almost certainly has
          > > > some crevice corrosion. If it doesn't, look closer.
          > > >
          > > > I had the rudder dropped on my 36 about a decade ago for an inspection.
          > > > The materials engineer took a careful look and said it indeed had some
          > > > crevice corrosion, he would have been shocked if it didn't, but the
          > > > depth of pits were insignificant relative to the wall thickness. A
          > > > subsequent conversation between the yard and Sabre reached the same result.
          > > >
          > > > A wet rudder isn't going to cause crevice corrosion in either fresh or
          > > > salt water. If a crack is big enough to let water it, it's probably big
          > > > enough to let oxygenated water circulate.
          > > >
          > > > I don't think that water in the a rudder is grounds to automatically
          > > > condemn the rudder. Drying it out is probably sufficient, but if you're
          > > > deeply concerned, have a yard open it up and take a careful look. Then
          > > > glass it up and go sailing.
          > > >
          > > > This advice doesn't generalize. Early Tartans had rudders with a
          > > > stainless post and mild steel ribs. When water got into those, the two
          > > > types of steel went to war against each other.
          > > >
          > > > On 4/3/2013 9:14 AM, Dave Lochner wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > AJ,
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > My S30 rudder was full of water that froze and cracked the bottom of
          > > > > the rudder open.
          > > > >
          > > > > I took it off and treated it as if it was wet core, drilled holes in
          > > > > the side and dried it out. Then filled the holes with West System and
          > > > > barrier coated it. Not a problem since.
          > > > >
          > > > > My boat is a freshwater boat. The concern for a wet rudder in salt
          > > > > water is crevice corrosion that could cause the SS skeleton to fail at
          > > > > an inopportune time. Graham's method would allow for inspection of the
          > > > > post and skeleton.
          > > > >
          > > > > Water enters the rudder through the joint between the rudder post and
          > > > > rudder. The differential expansion rates between fiberglass and SS
          > > > > makes it difficult to maintain a proper seal.
          > > > >
          > > > > Dave
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > On Apr 3, 2013, at 9:07 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >>
          > > > >> AJ
          > > > >> Mine had same crack on 34 MK1
          > > > >> I took it off and cut it open
          > > > >> My view is that although it isn't pretty there is little chance of a
          > > > >> failure
          > > > >> Stainless skeleton extends full width and depth of rudder
          > > > >> I replaced all the soggy and smelly foam.
          > > > >> Then I glassed it closed again.
          > > > >> Water still gets in through the post but crack is gone
          > > > >> Graham
          > > > >>
          > > > >> *From:* navip11 <navip11@ <mailto:navip11@>>
          > > > >> *To:* Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >> <mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
          > > > >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2013 8:54:38 AM
          > > > >> *Subject:* [SabreSailboat] Delaminated Rudder on Sabre 38-2
          > > > >> Hi all,
          > > > >>
          > > > >> Just concluded our survey on a 1994 38-2, biggest concern is a
          > > > >> wet/DE-laminated rudder. Looks as though there is a crack in the
          > > > >> forward section of the rudder under the post. The starboard side is
          > > > >> pretty bad and the surveyor said it was mandatory to fix before sailing.
          > > > >>
          > > > >> I recall someone taking this on a while back but was unable to find
          > > > >> the post.
          > > > >>
          > > > >> In working to get this repaired one option was suggested by broker
          > > > >> (who has not yet discussed the matter with seller), a.) have the yard
          > > > >> repair it and b.) the surveyor suggested contacting Sabre for info on
          > > > >> obtaining a new one.
          > > > >>
          > > > >> I am already getting the feeling from the brokers reaction to the
          > > > >> news that they would prefer the yard to do the repair (obviously less
          > > > >> expensive). Not knowing much about this I am seeking opinions:
          > > > >>
          > > > >> 1. Is this "common" ?
          > > > >>
          > > > >> 2. Anyone care to share personal experience with this?
          > > > >>
          > > > >> 3. If the yard conducts the repair, what should be done?
          > > > >>
          > > > >> 4. I have a concern on having to wait until July to sail, I am
          > > > >> waiting on a estimate request from the local yard on repair
          > > > >> estimates/time frame. The local yard seems fantastic, but as it is
          > > > >> too far from my home base for me to consider in the future, I
          > > > >> couldn't blame the yard for putting their "regular" customers first.
          > > > >>
          > > > >> 5. If the yard supplies an estimate, I would like the seller to pay
          > > > >> for it directly. This would avoid any issues on my end with
          > > > >> additional charges once the rudder is opened up. I have no reason to
          > > > >> think this would happen, but I would very much like to avoid having X
          > > > >> dollars reduced from the purchase price based on an estimate and then
          > > > >> the repair ends up being more due to an unforeseen circumstance. I
          > > > >> thought of perhaps suggesting es rowing some proceeds as an alternative.
          > > > >>
          > > > >> Thanks to those who have read through this and their anticipated
          > > > >> wisdom to this nervous buyer!
          > > > >>
          > > > >> AJ
          > > > >>
          > > > >>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Allison Lehman
          AJ, Just be sure you spell out the terms/ potential scope of work to be completed. BTW, a wet rudder is not particularly unusual in an older boat,
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 3, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            AJ,
            Just be sure you spell out the terms/ potential scope of work to be completed.  BTW, a wet rudder is not particularly unusual in an older boat, unfortunately.  

            Allison

            Allison Lehman
            Yachtfinders/Windseakers
            510 912-5800 cell
            510 860-4640 fax


            P Please consider the environment before printing this email






            On Apr 3, 2013, at 9:19 AM, "navip11" <navip11@...> wrote:

             

            Alison,

            Thanks for your reply. Another excellent idea. Should I agree to accept the boat, we already have an escrow agreement in place to allow for a close before the sea-trail. If anything should be wrong with systems not tested during the on the hard part of the survey the escrow funds would cover this. I might suggest your approach asking that the rudder repair (if over the yard estimate) would be subject to the funds held in the escrow agreement. I was thinking that perhaps a few extra bucks could be added into the escrow funds to account for this.

            Again thanks,

            AJ

            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Allison Lehman <allison@...> wrote:
            >
            > AJ,
            > First let me say I agree with Jim, open it up and let the yard access it. I am not sure that Sabre has new rudders as they don't usually keep molds for discontinued models, but it is worth checking.
            > As for the costs, there is a third way to deal with the issue of responsibility. You will be hard pressed to get the seller to "pay for the job" as they want out of boat ownership. Get an estimate from the yard and add some to it. Then suggest to your broker to hold, that amount in escrow until the job is complete. That way the seller gets the lion share of his monies so he is happy and you get the repair you want. You will need to put some language in the agreement stating the scope of the job and what needs to happen if the rudder post is bad. THis way you can take ownership and start on the things you want to do, while the yard is fixing the rudder.
            >
            > Good luck,
            > Allison
            >
            >
            > A
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Apr 3, 2013, at 8:37 AM, navip11 <navip11@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Jim,
            > >
            > > Thanks for the information on stainless.
            > >
            > > Everything you said makes sense, however its not so much the water I am concerned about. Its the delamination. Which could cause the post to come lose resulting in no steerage. At a minimum I think we are going to have the rudder opened up for investigation, then reglassed.
            > >
            > > Again I appreciate the input and I feel somewhat better about the situation.
            > >
            > > There is still the timing issue of getting this taken care of prior to a launch.
            > >
            > > Cheers
            > >
            > > AJ
            > >
            > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jim@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Crevice corrosion is a subtle phenomenon. What makes stainless steel
            > > > "stainless" is a very thin oxide layer that protects the underlying
            > > > metal. Under some conditions, the layer degrades and needs to be
            > > > replenished by oxygen. Both air and water have enough oxygen to do the
            > > > trick, so stainless remains stainless.
            > > >
            > > > In some places, most notably where the rudder post enters the sealed
            > > > rudder, there is a small area that is wet but stagnant (i.e. the water
            > > > becomes deoxygenated) and the oxide layer is perturbed but starved of
            > > > oxygen. This is where crevice corrosion occurs.
            > > >
            > > > Sabre originally compensated by using particularly thick walled rudder
            > > > posts, but eventually gave up and cut over to carbon fiber rudder
            > > > posts. If you have a stainless rudder post, it almost certainly has
            > > > some crevice corrosion. If it doesn't, look closer.
            > > >
            > > > I had the rudder dropped on my 36 about a decade ago for an inspection.
            > > > The materials engineer took a careful look and said it indeed had some
            > > > crevice corrosion, he would have been shocked if it didn't, but the
            > > > depth of pits were insignificant relative to the wall thickness. A
            > > > subsequent conversation between the yard and Sabre reached the same result.
            > > >
            > > > A wet rudder isn't going to cause crevice corrosion in either fresh or
            > > > salt water. If a crack is big enough to let water it, it's probably big
            > > > enough to let oxygenated water circulate.
            > > >
            > > > I don't think that water in the a rudder is grounds to automatically
            > > > condemn the rudder. Drying it out is probably sufficient, but if you're
            > > > deeply concerned, have a yard open it up and take a careful look. Then
            > > > glass it up and go sailing.
            > > >
            > > > This advice doesn't generalize. Early Tartans had rudders with a
            > > > stainless post and mild steel ribs. When water got into those, the two
            > > > types of steel went to war against each other.
            > > >
            > > > On 4/3/2013 9:14 AM, Dave Lochner wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > AJ,
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > My S30 rudder was full of water that froze and cracked the bottom of
            > > > > the rudder open.
            > > > >
            > > > > I took it off and treated it as if it was wet core, drilled holes in
            > > > > the side and dried it out. Then filled the holes with West System and
            > > > > barrier coated it. Not a problem since.
            > > > >
            > > > > My boat is a freshwater boat. The concern for a wet rudder in salt
            > > > > water is crevice corrosion that could cause the SS skeleton to fail at
            > > > > an inopportune time. Graham's method would allow for inspection of the
            > > > > post and skeleton.
            > > > >
            > > > > Water enters the rudder through the joint between the rudder post and
            > > > > rudder. The differential expansion rates between fiberglass and SS
            > > > > makes it difficult to maintain a proper seal.
            > > > >
            > > > > Dave
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > On Apr 3, 2013, at 9:07 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >>
            > > > >> AJ
            > > > >> Mine had same crack on 34 MK1
            > > > >> I took it off and cut it open
            > > > >> My view is that although it isn't pretty there is little chance of a
            > > > >> failure
            > > > >> Stainless skeleton extends full width and depth of rudder
            > > > >> I replaced all the soggy and smelly foam.
            > > > >> Then I glassed it closed again.
            > > > >> Water still gets in through the post but crack is gone
            > > > >> Graham
            > > > >>
            > > > >> *From:* navip11 <navip11@ <mailto:navip11@>>
            > > > >> *To:* Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
            > > > >> <mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
            > > > >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2013 8:54:38 AM
            > > > >> *Subject:* [SabreSailboat] Delaminated Rudder on Sabre 38-2
            > > > >> Hi all,
            > > > >>
            > > > >> Just concluded our survey on a 1994 38-2, biggest concern is a
            > > > >> wet/DE-laminated rudder. Looks as though there is a crack in the
            > > > >> forward section of the rudder under the post. The starboard side is
            > > > >> pretty bad and the surveyor said it was mandatory to fix before sailing.
            > > > >>
            > > > >> I recall someone taking this on a while back but was unable to find
            > > > >> the post.
            > > > >>
            > > > >> In working to get this repaired one option was suggested by broker
            > > > >> (who has not yet discussed the matter with seller), a.) have the yard
            > > > >> repair it and b.) the surveyor suggested contacting Sabre for info on
            > > > >> obtaining a new one.
            > > > >>
            > > > >> I am already getting the feeling from the brokers reaction to the
            > > > >> news that they would prefer the yard to do the repair (obviously less
            > > > >> expensive). Not knowing much about this I am seeking opinions:
            > > > >>
            > > > >> 1. Is this "common" ?
            > > > >>
            > > > >> 2. Anyone care to share personal experience with this?
            > > > >>
            > > > >> 3. If the yard conducts the repair, what should be done?
            > > > >>
            > > > >> 4. I have a concern on having to wait until July to sail, I am
            > > > >> waiting on a estimate request from the local yard on repair
            > > > >> estimates/time frame. The local yard seems fantastic, but as it is
            > > > >> too far from my home base for me to consider in the future, I
            > > > >> couldn't blame the yard for putting their "regular" customers first.
            > > > >>
            > > > >> 5. If the yard supplies an estimate, I would like the seller to pay
            > > > >> for it directly. This would avoid any issues on my end with
            > > > >> additional charges once the rudder is opened up. I have no reason to
            > > > >> think this would happen, but I would very much like to avoid having X
            > > > >> dollars reduced from the purchase price based on an estimate and then
            > > > >> the repair ends up being more due to an unforeseen circumstance. I
            > > > >> thought of perhaps suggesting es rowing some proceeds as an alternative.
            > > > >>
            > > > >> Thanks to those who have read through this and their anticipated
            > > > >> wisdom to this nervous buyer!
            > > > >>
            > > > >> AJ
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >


          • Stephen
            I would seriously consider asking Sabre to fabricate a new rudder-When I bought my S34MKII 7 years ago, my surveyor was concerned that the rudder sounded
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 3, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              I would seriously consider asking Sabre to fabricate a new rudder-When I bought my S34MKII 7 years ago, my surveyor was concerned that the rudder sounded hollow. Sabre quoted something like $2,500 delivered (and delivery was a large portion of the expense) for a new unit, but then advised the unit was supposed to sound hollow. (Further investigation revealed the rudder was both hollow and dry, so need to change it.)

              Replacement of the rudder is a good option so you can replace the rudder post bearings-that no-one seems to maintain.

              Repair is another option-the rudder is fiberglass over a stainless steel cage, filled with foam, so it should not be too difficult to repair.
            • navip11
              10-4. I sent correspondence to Glen this am, evidently he is out of the office until next weds! But I did forward along my requested to his designated agent.
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 3, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                10-4. I sent correspondence to Glen this am, evidently he is out of the office until next weds! But I did forward along my requested to his designated agent.

                If Sabre happens to have a new rudder, I have zero issue with going up to ME placing it in the back of the pickup and driving it to the yard.

                We shall see!

                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen" <stephen.ouellette@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I would seriously consider asking Sabre to fabricate a new rudder-When I bought my S34MKII 7 years ago, my surveyor was concerned that the rudder sounded hollow. Sabre quoted something like $2,500 delivered (and delivery was a large portion of the expense) for a new unit, but then advised the unit was supposed to sound hollow. (Further investigation revealed the rudder was both hollow and dry, so need to change it.)
                >
                > Replacement of the rudder is a good option so you can replace the rudder post bearings-that no-one seems to maintain.
                >
                > Repair is another option-the rudder is fiberglass over a stainless steel cage, filled with foam, so it should not be too difficult to repair.
                >
              • christopher
                One other thing. You might want to get a second opinion on the rudder. I don t know about the MK 2 but on the earlier boats one side of the rudder will
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 3, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  One other thing. You might want to get a second opinion on the rudder. I don't know about the MK 2 but on the earlier boats one side of the rudder will "sound out" fine and the other side will usually sound hollow or delaminated. It has to do with the rudder being laid up on its side.

                  Good luck with the purchase,
                  Christopher
                  S30 #18 Aetheria (for sale)

                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "navip11" <navip11@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > 10-4. I sent correspondence to Glen this am, evidently he is out of the office until next weds! But I did forward along my requested to his designated agent.
                  >
                  > If Sabre happens to have a new rudder, I have zero issue with going up to ME placing it in the back of the pickup and driving it to the yard.
                  >
                  > We shall see!
                  >
                  > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen" <stephen.ouellette@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I would seriously consider asking Sabre to fabricate a new rudder-When I bought my S34MKII 7 years ago, my surveyor was concerned that the rudder sounded hollow. Sabre quoted something like $2,500 delivered (and delivery was a large portion of the expense) for a new unit, but then advised the unit was supposed to sound hollow. (Further investigation revealed the rudder was both hollow and dry, so need to change it.)
                  > >
                  > > Replacement of the rudder is a good option so you can replace the rudder post bearings-that no-one seems to maintain.
                  > >
                  > > Repair is another option-the rudder is fiberglass over a stainless steel cage, filled with foam, so it should not be too difficult to repair.
                  > >
                  >
                • john kalinowski
                  give these guys a callhttp://newrudders.com/ Foss has been building nothing but rudders for 35 years. Regards john ... From: navip11
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 3, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    give these guys a call

                    Foss has been building nothing but rudders for 35 years.

                    Regards

                    john

                    --- On Wed, 4/3/13, navip11 <navip11@...> wrote:

                    From: navip11 <navip11@...>
                    Subject: [SabreSailboat] Delaminated Rudder on Sabre 38-2
                    To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, April 3, 2013, 8:54 AM

                     

                    Hi all,

                    Just concluded our survey on a 1994 38-2, biggest concern is a wet/DE-laminated rudder. Looks as though there is a crack in the forward section of the rudder under the post. The starboard side is pretty bad and the surveyor said it was mandatory to fix before sailing.

                    I recall someone taking this on a while back but was unable to find the post.

                    In working to get this repaired one option was suggested by broker (who has not yet discussed the matter with seller), a.) have the yard repair it and b.) the surveyor suggested contacting Sabre for info on obtaining a new one.

                    I am already getting the feeling from the brokers reaction to the news that they would prefer the yard to do the repair (obviously less expensive). Not knowing much about this I am seeking opinions:

                    1. Is this "common" ?

                    2. Anyone care to share personal experience with this?

                    3. If the yard conducts the repair, what should be done?

                    4. I have a concern on having to wait until July to sail, I am waiting on a estimate request from the local yard on repair estimates/time frame. The local yard seems fantastic, but as it is too far from my home base for me to consider in the future, I couldn't blame the yard for putting their "regular" customers first.

                    5. If the yard supplies an estimate, I would like the seller to pay for it directly. This would avoid any issues on my end with additional charges once the rudder is opened up. I have no reason to think this would happen, but I would very much like to avoid having X dollars reduced from the purchase price based on an estimate and then the repair ends up being more due to an unforeseen circumstance. I thought of perhaps suggesting es rowing some proceeds as an alternative.

                    Thanks to those who have read through this and their anticipated wisdom to this nervous buyer!

                    AJ

                  • navip11
                    John, Have you had any experience with Foss? AJ Thanks,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 4, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      John,

                      Have you had any experience with Foss?

                      AJ

                      Thanks,
                      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > give these guys a callhttp://newrudders.com/
                      > Foss has been building nothing but rudders for 35 years.
                      > Regards
                      > john
                      >
                      > --- On Wed, 4/3/13, navip11 <navip11@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: navip11 <navip11@...>
                      > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Delaminated Rudder on Sabre 38-2
                      > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Wednesday, April 3, 2013, 8:54 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi all,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Just concluded our survey on a 1994 38-2, biggest concern is a wet/DE-laminated rudder. Looks as though there is a crack in the forward section of the rudder under the post. The starboard side is pretty bad and the surveyor said it was mandatory to fix before sailing.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I recall someone taking this on a while back but was unable to find the post.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > In working to get this repaired one option was suggested by broker (who has not yet discussed the matter with seller), a.) have the yard repair it and b.) the surveyor suggested contacting Sabre for info on obtaining a new one.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I am already getting the feeling from the brokers reaction to the news that they would prefer the yard to do the repair (obviously less expensive). Not knowing much about this I am seeking opinions:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 1. Is this "common" ?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 2. Anyone care to share personal experience with this?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 3. If the yard conducts the repair, what should be done?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 4. I have a concern on having to wait until July to sail, I am waiting on a estimate request from the local yard on repair estimates/time frame. The local yard seems fantastic, but as it is too far from my home base for me to consider in the future, I couldn't blame the yard for putting their "regular" customers first.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 5. If the yard supplies an estimate, I would like the seller to pay for it directly. This would avoid any issues on my end with additional charges once the rudder is opened up. I have no reason to think this would happen, but I would very much like to avoid having X dollars reduced from the purchase price based on an estimate and then the repair ends up being more due to an unforeseen circumstance. I thought of perhaps suggesting es rowing some proceeds as an alternative.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks to those who have read through this and their anticipated wisdom to this nervous buyer!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > AJ
                      >
                    • john kalinowski
                      I personally have not, but they are the go-to guys for those who race.They are also the vendor of choice for 2 dozen boat builders. Do a Google on them,or
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 4, 2013
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                        I personally have not, but they are the go-to guys for those who race.
                        They are also the vendor of choice for 2 dozen boat builders.

                        Do a Google on them,or better check out the gear & repair forums on sailing anarchy.
                        www.sailinganarchy.com
                        It there is any dirt on them, it will be found at SA...

                        --- On Thu, 4/4/13, navip11 <navip11@...> wrote:

                        From: navip11 <navip11@...>
                        Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Delaminated Rudder on Sabre 38-2
                        To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, April 4, 2013, 9:05 AM

                         


                        John,

                        Have you had any experience with Foss?

                        AJ

                        Thanks,
                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > give these guys a callhttp://newrudders.com/
                        > Foss has been building nothing but rudders for 35 years.
                        > Regards
                        > john
                        >
                        > --- On Wed, 4/3/13, navip11 <navip11@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: navip11 <navip11@...>
                        > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Delaminated Rudder on Sabre 38-2
                        > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Wednesday, April 3, 2013, 8:54 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi all,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Just concluded our survey on a 1994 38-2, biggest concern is a wet/DE-laminated rudder. Looks as though there is a crack in the forward section of the rudder under the post. The starboard side is pretty bad and the surveyor said it was mandatory to fix before sailing.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I recall someone taking this on a while back but was unable to find the post.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > In working to get this repaired one option was suggested by broker (who has not yet discussed the matter with seller), a.) have the yard repair it and b.) the surveyor suggested contacting Sabre for info on obtaining a new one.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I am already getting the feeling from the brokers reaction to the news that they would prefer the yard to do the repair (obviously less expensive). Not knowing much about this I am seeking opinions:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 1. Is this "common" ?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 2. Anyone care to share personal experience with this?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 3. If the yard conducts the repair, what should be done?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 4. I have a concern on having to wait until July to sail, I am waiting on a estimate request from the local yard on repair estimates/time frame. The local yard seems fantastic, but as it is too far from my home base for me to consider in the future, I couldn't blame the yard for putting their "regular" customers first.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 5. If the yard supplies an estimate, I would like the seller to pay for it directly. This would avoid any issues on my end with additional charges once the rudder is opened up. I have no reason to think this would happen, but I would very much like to avoid having X dollars reduced from the purchase price based on an estimate and then the repair ends up being more due to an unforeseen circumstance. I thought of perhaps suggesting es rowing some proceeds as an alternative.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks to those who have read through this and their anticipated wisdom to this nervous buyer!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > AJ
                        >

                      • navip11
                        great idea thanks. Spoke to Sabre, Glen is out until middle of next week. Evidently, I would be looking at 4-6k for a new rudder and it is at a minimum of 8
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 4, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          great idea thanks.

                          Spoke to Sabre, Glen is out until middle of next week. Evidently, I would be looking at "4-6k" for a new rudder and it is at a minimum of 8 weeks out!

                          Yikes.

                          The local yard is able to do it for half of that, just confirming time schedule now.

                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I personally have not, but they are the go-to guys for those who race.They are also the vendor of choice for 2 dozen boat builders.
                          > Do a Google on them,or better check out the gear & repair forums on sailing anarchy.www.sailinganarchy.comIt there is any dirt on them, it will be found at SA...
                          >
                          > --- On Thu, 4/4/13, navip11 <navip11@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: navip11 <navip11@...>
                          > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Delaminated Rudder on Sabre 38-2
                          > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Thursday, April 4, 2013, 9:05 AM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > John,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Have you had any experience with Foss?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > AJ
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > give these guys a callhttp://newrudders.com/
                          >
                          > > Foss has been building nothing but rudders for 35 years.
                          >
                          > > Regards
                          >
                          > > john
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > --- On Wed, 4/3/13, navip11 <navip11@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > From: navip11 <navip11@>
                          >
                          > > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Delaminated Rudder on Sabre 38-2
                          >
                          > > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > > Date: Wednesday, April 3, 2013, 8:54 AM
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >  
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Hi all,
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Just concluded our survey on a 1994 38-2, biggest concern is a wet/DE-laminated rudder. Looks as though there is a crack in the forward section of the rudder under the post. The starboard side is pretty bad and the surveyor said it was mandatory to fix before sailing.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > I recall someone taking this on a while back but was unable to find the post.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > In working to get this repaired one option was suggested by broker (who has not yet discussed the matter with seller), a.) have the yard repair it and b.) the surveyor suggested contacting Sabre for info on obtaining a new one.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > I am already getting the feeling from the brokers reaction to the news that they would prefer the yard to do the repair (obviously less expensive). Not knowing much about this I am seeking opinions:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > 1. Is this "common" ?
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > 2. Anyone care to share personal experience with this?
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > 3. If the yard conducts the repair, what should be done?
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > 4. I have a concern on having to wait until July to sail, I am waiting on a estimate request from the local yard on repair estimates/time frame. The local yard seems fantastic, but as it is too far from my home base for me to consider in the future, I couldn't blame the yard for putting their "regular" customers first.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > 5. If the yard supplies an estimate, I would like the seller to pay for it directly. This would avoid any issues on my end with additional charges once the rudder is opened up. I have no reason to think this would happen, but I would very much like to avoid having X dollars reduced from the purchase price based on an estimate and then the repair ends up being more due to an unforeseen circumstance. I thought of perhaps suggesting es rowing some proceeds as an alternative.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Thanks to those who have read through this and their anticipated wisdom to this nervous buyer!
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > AJ
                          >
                          > >
                          >
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