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No Room for Stuffing Box Service

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  • ibaline
    The stuffing box on my 1974 Sabre 28-1 needs to either have the packing redone or tightened. I have no idea the last time it was done as this is my 4th season
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 29, 2013
      The stuffing box on my 1974 Sabre 28-1 needs to either have the packing redone or tightened. I have no idea the last time it was done as this is my 4th season with the boat. It's dripping a drop every second when the shaft is turning and less often when the shaft is not turning.

      Access is very difficult through the starboard lazarette as some of you might know so I asked the yard to repack it. "Sure", they said about an hour to do it and then an adjustment when the boat goes back in. BUT, after seeing it, the mechanic said there wasn't enough room between the nut and the coupling to move the big nut far enough forward to pick out the stuffing, repack and retighten. Sure enough, the frighteningly rusted coupling with set screw is an inch or less away from the big nut.

      I put a picture of it in a new album for Morning Star.

      Assuming we can get the set screw out and the shaft out of the coupling, options appear to be:
      1. Disconnect the coupling and pull the 7/8" shaft back
      2. Disconnect the coupling and pull the A4 engine
      3. Just try and tighten the thin jamb nut and then see what's doing when she splashes.

      What are the chances of getting the coupling off with out damaging the engine output plate?

      Option 1. Would allow replacing the hose with a thicker walled hose and better hose clamps. Maybe shorten the hose so that there is more room next time. The cutlass bearing is OK so we wouldn't pull the shaft all the way out unless it's grooved beyond repair. Any downside to this?

      Option 2. Would allow me much better temporary access to the engine so that I could more easily replace the coupling and perform some maintenance and even paint her. I love working on my A4. This would also let me replace the engine mounts which I can't even see they are so short or compressed. My concern is that with new mounts, the engine would be too high and would never align properly again, or is there enough play in the cutlass and shaft log?

      Option 3. Would appear to be the easiest although should I worry about scoring the shaft? Also, this maintains the status quo with the coupling and mounts and I wouldn't have better temporary access to the engine.

      Sorry to be so long-winded. Any comments, observations or opinions are welcome.

      Thanks,

      Ira B.
      Morning Star 28-1 #104
    • Carter Brey
      Ira, None of the above. This is child s play, if a little tedious. Assuming the boat is out of the water: Undo the forward two hose clamps. Use a small hacksaw
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 29, 2013
        Ira,

        None of the above. This is child's play, if a little tedious.

        Assuming the boat is out of the water:

        Undo the forward two hose clamps.

        Use a small hacksaw blade and a curved linoleum knife (for the far side
        of the hose if you are unable to reach it with a blade) to cut a
        half-inch from the forward edge of the stuffing box hose. Mark the cut
        with an inked line and take care to make it a clean cut.

        Clean up the stuffing box components (gland, locknut, etc.) with a
        bronze brush.

        Wrenches needed for stuffing box: 1 3/4” (gland nut) and 1
        7/8” (locknut).

        If the nuts won't separate, use penetrating oil judiciously (red plastic
        straw or soaked rag, avoiding splatter on the transmission and hose)
        along with patience, and try again.

        Once the lock nut (the thin one) decides to move, push the flange (along
        with the entire male threaded portion of the assembly) aft the extra
        half-inch into the newly shortened hose.

        Replace the two forward hose clamps in their new position.

        Now, with the gland (the female portion containing the actual packing)
        pushed flush with the transmission coupling, and the male portion pushed
        back into the hose, you will have room to get into the gland with an
        extraction tool of your choice and remove the old, no doubt calcified
        packing.

        Replace with Goretex GFO packing. You will probably want 1/4":

        http://www.emarineinc.com/products/GFO-Packing%2C-1%7B47%7D4-in.%286-mm%
        29-2-foot.html

        Cheers,

        Carter Brey
        S28-II Delphine
        City Island, NY

        On Sat, 2013-03-30 at 02:04 +0000, ibaline wrote:
        >
        > The stuffing box on my 1974 Sabre 28-1 needs to either have the
        > packing redone or tightened. I have no idea the last time it was done
        > as this is my 4th season with the boat. It's dripping a drop every
        > second when the shaft is turning and less often when the shaft is not
        > turning.
        >
        > Access is very difficult through the starboard lazarette as some of
        > you might know so I asked the yard to repack it. "Sure", they said
        > about an hour to do it and then an adjustment when the boat goes back
        > in. BUT, after seeing it, the mechanic said there wasn't enough room
        > between the nut and the coupling to move the big nut far enough
        > forward to pick out the stuffing, repack and retighten. Sure enough,
        > the frighteningly rusted coupling with set screw is an inch or less
        > away from the big nut.
        >
        > I put a picture of it in a new album for Morning Star.
        >
        > Assuming we can get the set screw out and the shaft out of the
        > coupling, options appear to be:
        > 1. Disconnect the coupling and pull the 7/8" shaft back
        > 2. Disconnect the coupling and pull the A4 engine
        > 3. Just try and tighten the thin jamb nut and then see what's doing
        > when she splashes.
        >
        > What are the chances of getting the coupling off with out damaging the
        > engine output plate?
        >
        > Option 1. Would allow replacing the hose with a thicker walled hose
        > and better hose clamps. Maybe shorten the hose so that there is more
        > room next time. The cutlass bearing is OK so we wouldn't pull the
        > shaft all the way out unless it's grooved beyond repair. Any downside
        > to this?
        >
        > Option 2. Would allow me much better temporary access to the engine so
        > that I could more easily replace the coupling and perform some
        > maintenance and even paint her. I love working on my A4. This would
        > also let me replace the engine mounts which I can't even see they are
        > so short or compressed. My concern is that with new mounts, the engine
        > would be too high and would never align properly again, or is there
        > enough play in the cutlass and shaft log?
        >
        > Option 3. Would appear to be the easiest although should I worry about
        > scoring the shaft? Also, this maintains the status quo with the
        > coupling and mounts and I wouldn't have better temporary access to the
        > engine.
        >
        > Sorry to be so long-winded. Any comments, observations or opinions are
        > welcome.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Ira B.
        > Morning Star 28-1 #104
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • mhrutstein
        LOL. All I can say is good luck. I have a Sabre 38 and even on that boat the stuffing box is very difficult to get at. This winter I removed the 30-year-old
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 30, 2013
          LOL. All I can say is good luck.

          I have a Sabre 38 and even on that boat the stuffing box is very difficult to get at. This winter I removed the 30-year-old fuel tank for cleaning, which made access possible, and so I replaced the stuffing box, the hose, the clamps, etc. But after adding a Drivesaver, I found that getting the nut off and the packing in was only possible if we took the Drivesaver back off again!

          It is very comforting to look at the beefy new Algonquin hose, new bronze stuffing box, and new solid T hose clamp compared to the flimsy old things. Also went with the teflon Dynamax packing, although it turned out to be difficult to size — the 3/16" was too small and the 1/4" was so big we could only get two rings in there.

          As to the engine mounts, I did that as well this winter and it was not nearly so bad as I anticipated. Get a couple of 2x4s to lever the engine around. Start early with the PB blast or loose juice or whatever you're going with. It's do-able.

          Mike
          S/V Treasure
          Salem, MA
        • josrulz_2001
          Hi Carter, I m in the same situation on our S34. And Ireally ike your suggestion, because all i really want is a servicable stuffing box. The install by a
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 30, 2013
            Hi Carter,
            I'm in the same situation on our S34. And Ireally ike your suggestion, because all i really want is a servicable stuffing box. The install by a previous yard (before we had the boat) was obviously done improperly in terms of leaving room for future maintenance.

            Anyway, one question on your suggestion below. Do you (or anyone) have any tips on how to be sure there is 1/2 inch clearance available to be cut? It would be a shame to cut, only to find there wasn't enough room between the end of the stern tube and the box to take out 1/2".

            Thoughts anyone?
            Thanks!
            Jim



            My concern has been, what if I start to cut ony to find I can't

            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Carter Brey <carter.brey@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ira,
            >
            > None of the above. This is child's play, if a little tedious.
            >
            > Assuming the boat is out of the water:
            >
            > Undo the forward two hose clamps.
            >
            > Use a small hacksaw blade and a curved linoleum knife (for the far side
            > of the hose if you are unable to reach it with a blade) to cut a
            > half-inch from the forward edge of the stuffing box hose. Mark the cut
            > with an inked line and take care to make it a clean cut.
            >
            > Clean up the stuffing box components (gland, locknut, etc.) with a
            > bronze brush.
            >
            > Wrenches needed for stuffing box: 1 3/4” (gland nut) and 1
            > 7/8” (locknut).
            >
            > If the nuts won't separate, use penetrating oil judiciously (red plastic
            > straw or soaked rag, avoiding splatter on the transmission and hose)
            > along with patience, and try again.
            >
            > Once the lock nut (the thin one) decides to move, push the flange (along
            > with the entire male threaded portion of the assembly) aft the extra
            > half-inch into the newly shortened hose.
            >
            > Replace the two forward hose clamps in their new position.
            >
            > Now, with the gland (the female portion containing the actual packing)
            > pushed flush with the transmission coupling, and the male portion pushed
            > back into the hose, you will have room to get into the gland with an
            > extraction tool of your choice and remove the old, no doubt calcified
            > packing.
            >
            > Replace with Goretex GFO packing. You will probably want 1/4":
            >
            > http://www.emarineinc.com/products/GFO-Packing%2C-1%7B47%7D4-in.%286-mm%
            > 29-2-foot.html
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Carter Brey
            > S28-II Delphine
            > City Island, NY
            >
            > On Sat, 2013-03-30 at 02:04 +0000, ibaline wrote:
            > >
            > > The stuffing box on my 1974 Sabre 28-1 needs to either have the
            > > packing redone or tightened. I have no idea the last time it was done
            > > as this is my 4th season with the boat. It's dripping a drop every
            > > second when the shaft is turning and less often when the shaft is not
            > > turning.
            > >
            > > Access is very difficult through the starboard lazarette as some of
            > > you might know so I asked the yard to repack it. "Sure", they said
            > > about an hour to do it and then an adjustment when the boat goes back
            > > in. BUT, after seeing it, the mechanic said there wasn't enough room
            > > between the nut and the coupling to move the big nut far enough
            > > forward to pick out the stuffing, repack and retighten. Sure enough,
            > > the frighteningly rusted coupling with set screw is an inch or less
            > > away from the big nut.
            > >
            > > I put a picture of it in a new album for Morning Star.
            > >
            > > Assuming we can get the set screw out and the shaft out of the
            > > coupling, options appear to be:
            > > 1. Disconnect the coupling and pull the 7/8" shaft back
            > > 2. Disconnect the coupling and pull the A4 engine
            > > 3. Just try and tighten the thin jamb nut and then see what's doing
            > > when she splashes.
            > >
            > > What are the chances of getting the coupling off with out damaging the
            > > engine output plate?
            > >
            > > Option 1. Would allow replacing the hose with a thicker walled hose
            > > and better hose clamps. Maybe shorten the hose so that there is more
            > > room next time. The cutlass bearing is OK so we wouldn't pull the
            > > shaft all the way out unless it's grooved beyond repair. Any downside
            > > to this?
            > >
            > > Option 2. Would allow me much better temporary access to the engine so
            > > that I could more easily replace the coupling and perform some
            > > maintenance and even paint her. I love working on my A4. This would
            > > also let me replace the engine mounts which I can't even see they are
            > > so short or compressed. My concern is that with new mounts, the engine
            > > would be too high and would never align properly again, or is there
            > > enough play in the cutlass and shaft log?
            > >
            > > Option 3. Would appear to be the easiest although should I worry about
            > > scoring the shaft? Also, this maintains the status quo with the
            > > coupling and mounts and I wouldn't have better temporary access to the
            > > engine.
            > >
            > > Sorry to be so long-winded. Any comments, observations or opinions are
            > > welcome.
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > > Ira B.
            > > Morning Star 28-1 #104
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Carter Brey
            Jim, One way of course is simply to look at the distance between the pairs of hose clamps, and not to exceed that distance in trimming. My suggestion of 1/2
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 30, 2013
              Jim,

              One way of course is simply to look at the distance between the pairs of hose clamps, and not to exceed that distance in trimming. My suggestion of 1/2" was somewhat arbitrary. Perhaps less would be sufficient. Depends on the particular stuffing box assembly.

              CB

              On Sat, 2013-03-30 at 14:41 +0000, josrulz_2001 wrote:
               
              Hi Carter,
              I'm in the same situation on our S34. And Ireally ike your suggestion, because all i really want is a servicable stuffing box. The install by a previous yard (before we had the boat) was obviously done improperly in terms of leaving room for future maintenance.

              Anyway, one question on your suggestion below. Do you (or anyone) have any tips on how to be sure there is 1/2 inch clearance available to be cut? It would be a shame to cut, only to find there wasn't enough room between the end of the stern tube and the box to take out 1/2".

              Thoughts anyone?
              Thanks!
              Jim

              My concern has been, what if I start to cut ony to find I can't

              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Carter Brey <carter.brey@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ira,
              >
              > None of the above. This is child's play, if a little tedious.
              >
              > Assuming the boat is out of the water:
              >
              > Undo the forward two hose clamps.
              >
              > Use a small hacksaw blade and a curved linoleum knife (for the far side
              > of the hose if you are unable to reach it with a blade) to cut a
              > half-inch from the forward edge of the stuffing box hose. Mark the cut
              > with an inked line and take care to make it a clean cut.
              >
              > Clean up the stuffing box components (gland, locknut, etc.) with a
              > bronze brush.
              >
              > Wrenches needed for stuffing box: 1 3/4” (gland nut) and 1
              > 7/8” (locknut).
              >
              > If the nuts won't separate, use penetrating oil judiciously (red plastic
              > straw or soaked rag, avoiding splatter on the transmission and hose)
              > along with patience, and try again.
              >
              > Once the lock nut (the thin one) decides to move, push the flange (along
              > with the entire male threaded portion of the assembly) aft the extra
              > half-inch into the newly shortened hose.
              >
              > Replace the two forward hose clamps in their new position.
              >
              > Now, with the gland (the female portion containing the actual packing)
              > pushed flush with the transmission coupling, and the male portion pushed
              > back into the hose, you will have room to get into the gland with an
              > extraction tool of your choice and remove the old, no doubt calcified
              > packing.
              >
              > Replace with Goretex GFO packing. You will probably want 1/4":
              >
              > http://www.emarineinc.com/products/GFO-Packing%2C-1%7B47%7D4-in.%286-mm%
              > 29-2-foot.html
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Carter Brey
              > S28-II Delphine
              > City Island, NY
              >
              > On Sat, 2013-03-30 at 02:04 +0000, ibaline wrote:
              > >
              > > The stuffing box on my 1974 Sabre 28-1 needs to either have the
              > > packing redone or tightened. I have no idea the last time it was done
              > > as this is my 4th season with the boat. It's dripping a drop every
              > > second when the shaft is turning and less often when the shaft is not
              > > turning.
              > >
              > > Access is very difficult through the starboard lazarette as some of
              > > you might know so I asked the yard to repack it. "Sure", they said
              > > about an hour to do it and then an adjustment when the boat goes back
              > > in. BUT, after seeing it, the mechanic said there wasn't enough room
              > > between the nut and the coupling to move the big nut far enough
              > > forward to pick out the stuffing, repack and retighten. Sure enough,
              > > the frighteningly rusted coupling with set screw is an inch or less
              > > away from the big nut.
              > >
              > > I put a picture of it in a new album for Morning Star.
              > >
              > > Assuming we can get the set screw out and the shaft out of the
              > > coupling, options appear to be:
              > > 1. Disconnect the coupling and pull the 7/8" shaft back
              > > 2. Disconnect the coupling and pull the A4 engine
              > > 3. Just try and tighten the thin jamb nut and then see what's doing
              > > when she splashes.
              > >
              > > What are the chances of getting the coupling off with out damaging the
              > > engine output plate?
              > >
              > > Option 1. Would allow replacing the hose with a thicker walled hose
              > > and better hose clamps. Maybe shorten the hose so that there is more
              > > room next time. The cutlass bearing is OK so we wouldn't pull the
              > > shaft all the way out unless it's grooved beyond repair. Any downside
              > > to this?
              > >
              > > Option 2. Would allow me much better temporary access to the engine so
              > > that I could more easily replace the coupling and perform some
              > > maintenance and even paint her. I love working on my A4. This would
              > > also let me replace the engine mounts which I can't even see they are
              > > so short or compressed. My concern is that with new mounts, the engine
              > > would be too high and would never align properly again, or is there
              > > enough play in the cutlass and shaft log?
              > >
              > > Option 3. Would appear to be the easiest although should I worry about
              > > scoring the shaft? Also, this maintains the status quo with the
              > > coupling and mounts and I wouldn't have better temporary access to the
              > > engine.
              > >
              > > Sorry to be so long-winded. Any comments, observations or opinions are
              > > welcome.
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > >
              > > Ira B.
              > > Morning Star 28-1 #104
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >




            • josrulz_2001
              Thanks Carter. I suspect that the reason for our problem isn t a hose that s too long, but rather that the hose isn t as far down the stern tube as it could
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 30, 2013
                Thanks Carter. I suspect that the reason for our problem isn't a hose that's too long, but rather that the hose isn't as far down the stern tube as it could be. I know I could take apart the stuffing box end and see how much clearance there is, but I'm afraid if there isn't enough clearance, that putting it back together would never work without making the original problem worse. Sort of all or none. I need an x-ray machine!


                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Carter Brey <carter.brey@...> wrote:
                >
                > Jim,
                >
                > One way of course is simply to look at the distance between the pairs of
                > hose clamps, and not to exceed that distance in trimming. My suggestion
                > of 1/2" was somewhat arbitrary. Perhaps less would be sufficient.
                > Depends on the particular stuffing box assembly.
                >
                > CB
                >
                > On Sat, 2013-03-30 at 14:41 +0000, josrulz_2001 wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi Carter,
                > > I'm in the same situation on our S34. And Ireally ike your suggestion,
                > > because all i really want is a servicable stuffing box. The install by
                > > a previous yard (before we had the boat) was obviously done improperly
                > > in terms of leaving room for future maintenance.
                > >
                > > Anyway, one question on your suggestion below. Do you (or anyone) have
                > > any tips on how to be sure there is 1/2 inch clearance available to be
                > > cut? It would be a shame to cut, only to find there wasn't enough room
                > > between the end of the stern tube and the box to take out 1/2".
                > >
                > > Thoughts anyone?
                > > Thanks!
                > > Jim
                > >
                > > My concern has been, what if I start to cut ony to find I can't
                > >
                > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Carter Brey <carter.brey@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Ira,
                > > >
                > > > None of the above. This is child's play, if a little tedious.
                > > >
                > > > Assuming the boat is out of the water:
                > > >
                > > > Undo the forward two hose clamps.
                > > >
                > > > Use a small hacksaw blade and a curved linoleum knife (for the far
                > > side
                > > > of the hose if you are unable to reach it with a blade) to cut a
                > > > half-inch from the forward edge of the stuffing box hose. Mark the
                > > cut
                > > > with an inked line and take care to make it a clean cut.
                > > >
                > > > Clean up the stuffing box components (gland, locknut, etc.) with a
                > > > bronze brush.
                > > >
                > > > Wrenches needed for stuffing box: 1 3/4” (gland nut) and 1
                > > > 7/8” (locknut).
                > > >
                > > > If the nuts won't separate, use penetrating oil judiciously (red
                > > plastic
                > > > straw or soaked rag, avoiding splatter on the transmission and hose)
                > > > along with patience, and try again.
                > > >
                > > > Once the lock nut (the thin one) decides to move, push the flange
                > > (along
                > > > with the entire male threaded portion of the assembly) aft the extra
                > > > half-inch into the newly shortened hose.
                > > >
                > > > Replace the two forward hose clamps in their new position.
                > > >
                > > > Now, with the gland (the female portion containing the actual
                > > packing)
                > > > pushed flush with the transmission coupling, and the male portion
                > > pushed
                > > > back into the hose, you will have room to get into the gland with an
                > > > extraction tool of your choice and remove the old, no doubt
                > > calcified
                > > > packing.
                > > >
                > > > Replace with Goretex GFO packing. You will probably want 1/4":
                > > >
                > > > http://www.emarineinc.com/products/GFO-Packing%2C-1%7B47%7D4-in.%
                > > 286-mm%
                > > > 29-2-foot.html
                > > >
                > > > Cheers,
                > > >
                > > > Carter Brey
                > > > S28-II Delphine
                > > > City Island, NY
                > > >
                > > > On Sat, 2013-03-30 at 02:04 +0000, ibaline wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > The stuffing box on my 1974 Sabre 28-1 needs to either have the
                > > > > packing redone or tightened. I have no idea the last time it was
                > > done
                > > > > as this is my 4th season with the boat. It's dripping a drop every
                > > > > second when the shaft is turning and less often when the shaft is
                > > not
                > > > > turning.
                > > > >
                > > > > Access is very difficult through the starboard lazarette as some
                > > of
                > > > > you might know so I asked the yard to repack it. "Sure", they said
                > > > > about an hour to do it and then an adjustment when the boat goes
                > > back
                > > > > in. BUT, after seeing it, the mechanic said there wasn't enough
                > > room
                > > > > between the nut and the coupling to move the big nut far enough
                > > > > forward to pick out the stuffing, repack and retighten. Sure
                > > enough,
                > > > > the frighteningly rusted coupling with set screw is an inch or
                > > less
                > > > > away from the big nut.
                > > > >
                > > > > I put a picture of it in a new album for Morning Star.
                > > > >
                > > > > Assuming we can get the set screw out and the shaft out of the
                > > > > coupling, options appear to be:
                > > > > 1. Disconnect the coupling and pull the 7/8" shaft back
                > > > > 2. Disconnect the coupling and pull the A4 engine
                > > > > 3. Just try and tighten the thin jamb nut and then see what's
                > > doing
                > > > > when she splashes.
                > > > >
                > > > > What are the chances of getting the coupling off with out damaging
                > > the
                > > > > engine output plate?
                > > > >
                > > > > Option 1. Would allow replacing the hose with a thicker walled
                > > hose
                > > > > and better hose clamps. Maybe shorten the hose so that there is
                > > more
                > > > > room next time. The cutlass bearing is OK so we wouldn't pull the
                > > > > shaft all the way out unless it's grooved beyond repair. Any
                > > downside
                > > > > to this?
                > > > >
                > > > > Option 2. Would allow me much better temporary access to the
                > > engine so
                > > > > that I could more easily replace the coupling and perform some
                > > > > maintenance and even paint her. I love working on my A4. This
                > > would
                > > > > also let me replace the engine mounts which I can't even see they
                > > are
                > > > > so short or compressed. My concern is that with new mounts, the
                > > engine
                > > > > would be too high and would never align properly again, or is
                > > there
                > > > > enough play in the cutlass and shaft log?
                > > > >
                > > > > Option 3. Would appear to be the easiest although should I worry
                > > about
                > > > > scoring the shaft? Also, this maintains the status quo with the
                > > > > coupling and mounts and I wouldn't have better temporary access to
                > > the
                > > > > engine.
                > > > >
                > > > > Sorry to be so long-winded. Any comments, observations or opinions
                > > are
                > > > > welcome.
                > > > >
                > > > > Thanks,
                > > > >
                > > > > Ira B.
                > > > > Morning Star 28-1 #104
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • WAYNE LADD
                Carter Senza Paragone S28-1 #12 here. My stuffing box was putting a gallon a day into the bilge. I was going to re-do the box but after many tries and Bruised
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 30, 2013
                  Carter
                  Senza Paragone S28-1 #12 here. My stuffing box was putting a gallon a day into the bilge. I was going to re-do the box but after many tries and Bruised arms, I just loosened the lock nut and tightened up the packing nut. The packing must be ok because I haven't had a problem for 6 years. I do feel that someday I'm going to be dealing with a box redo but will wait until necessary.--------------------Wladd


                  To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                  From: josrulz_2001@...
                  Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 14:41:45 +0000
                  Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: No Room for Stuffing Box Service

                   
                  Hi Carter,
                  I'm in the same situation on our S34. And Ireally ike your suggestion, because all i really want is a servicable stuffing box. The install by a previous yard (before we had the boat) was obviously done improperly in terms of leaving room for future maintenance.

                  Anyway, one question on your suggestion below. Do you (or anyone) have any tips on how to be sure there is 1/2 inch clearance available to be cut? It would be a shame to cut, only to find there wasn't enough room between the end of the stern tube and the box to take out 1/2".

                  Thoughts anyone?
                  Thanks!
                  Jim

                  My concern has been, what if I start to cut ony to find I can't

                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Carter Brey <carter.brey@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ira,
                  >
                  > None of the above. This is child's play, if a little tedious.
                  >
                  > Assuming the boat is out of the water:
                  >
                  > Undo the forward two hose clamps.
                  >
                  > Use a small hacksaw blade and a curved linoleum knife (for the far side
                  > of the hose if you are unable to reach it with a blade) to cut a
                  > half-inch from the forward edge of the stuffing box hose. Mark the cut
                  > with an inked line and take care to make it a clean cut.
                  >
                  > Clean up the stuffing box components (gland, locknut, etc.) with a
                  > bronze brush.
                  >
                  > Wrenches needed for stuffing box: 1 3/4� (gland nut) and 1
                  > 7/8� (locknut).
                  >
                  > If the nuts won't separate, use penetrating oil judiciously (red plastic
                  > straw or soaked rag, avoiding splatter on the transmission and hose)
                  > along with patience, and try again.
                  >
                  > Once the lock nut (the thin one) decides to move, push the flange (along
                  > with the entire male threaded portion of the assembly) aft the extra
                  > half-inch into the newly shortened hose.
                  >
                  > Replace the two forward hose clamps in their new position.
                  >
                  > Now, with the gland (the female portion containing the actual packing)
                  > pushed flush with the transmission coupling, and the male portion pushed
                  > back into the hose, you will have room to get into the gland with an
                  > extraction tool of your choice and remove the old, no doubt calcified
                  > packing.
                  >
                  > Replace with Goretex GFO packing. You will probably want 1/4":
                  >
                  > http://www.emarineinc.com/products/GFO-Packing%2C-1%7B47%7D4-in.%286-mm%
                  > 29-2-foot.html
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Carter Brey
                  > S28-II Delphine
                  > City Island, NY
                  >
                  > On Sat, 2013-03-30 at 02:04 +0000, ibaline wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The stuffing box on my 1974 Sabre 28-1 needs to either have the
                  > > packing redone or tightened. I have no idea the last time it was done
                  > > as this is my 4th season with the boat. It's dripping a drop every
                  > > second when the shaft is turning and less often when the shaft is not
                  > > turning.
                  > >
                  > > Access is very difficult through the starboard lazarette as some of
                  > > you might know so I asked the yard to repack it. "Sure", they said
                  > > about an hour to do it and then an adjustment when the boat goes back
                  > > in. BUT, after seeing it, the mechanic said there wasn't enough room
                  > > between the nut and the coupling to move the big nut far enough
                  > > forward to pick out the stuffing, repack and retighten. Sure enough,
                  > > the frighteningly rusted coupling with set screw is an inch or less
                  > > away from the big nut.
                  > >
                  > > I put a picture of it in a new album for Morning Star.
                  > >
                  > > Assuming we can get the set screw out and the shaft out of the
                  > > coupling, options appear to be:
                  > > 1. Disconnect the coupling and pull the 7/8" shaft back
                  > > 2. Disconnect the coupling and pull the A4 engine
                  > > 3. Just try and tighten the thin jamb nut and then see what's doing
                  > > when she splashes.
                  > >
                  > > What are the chances of getting the coupling off with out damaging the
                  > > engine output plate?
                  > >
                  > > Option 1. Would allow replacing the hose with a thicker walled hose
                  > > and better hose clamps. Maybe shorten the hose so that there is more
                  > > room next time. The cutlass bearing is OK so we wouldn't pull the
                  > > shaft all the way out unless it's grooved beyond repair. Any downside
                  > > to this?
                  > >
                  > > Option 2. Would allow me much better temporary access to the engine so
                  > > that I could more easily replace the coupling and perform some
                  > > maintenance and even paint her. I love working on my A4. This would
                  > > also let me replace the engine mounts which I can't even see they are
                  > > so short or compressed. My concern is that with new mounts, the engine
                  > > would be too high and would never align properly again, or is there
                  > > enough play in the cutlass and shaft log?
                  > >
                  > > Option 3. Would appear to be the easiest although should I worry about
                  > > scoring the shaft? Also, this maintains the status quo with the
                  > > coupling and mounts and I wouldn't have better temporary access to the
                  > > engine.
                  > >
                  > > Sorry to be so long-winded. Any comments, observations or opinions are
                  > > welcome.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > >
                  > > Ira B.
                  > > Morning Star 28-1 #104
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >


                • tim_woodworth88
                  Ira - Your post brings back crazy memories of this time last year when I decided to pull the coupling and, while at it, replace the cutlass bearing. It was
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013
                    Ira -

                    Your post brings back crazy memories of this time last year when I decided to pull the coupling and, while at it, replace the cutlass bearing. It was a nasty job.

                    There's no room in a S28 for the traditional tricks for pressing out the shaft from the coupling with a socket or worse, a stack of dimes. I used a dremel cutoff wheel and a cold chisel to split the coupling. I saved the shaft and replaced the coupling with a split version from Don Moyer. Had to use an angle grinder too since the dremel cutoff did not have the cutting depth to get through the whole flange.

                    As for replacing stuffing... I do this while upside down and crammed in the starboard lazarette. There is just enough room to push in a strand at time. It's tough but doable on my boat. I posted a picture of my setup in the L'Heretique photo album section.

                    Also, I was warned by one of our senior posters of using Graphic impregnated packing on a bronze shaft. Doing this will destroy your bronze shaft. ABYC also says this is not to be done.

                    This job was an avalanche of a project. It all started from a leaky steel gas tank and ended with faring the shaft strut back in place. It was an event but she's a better boat for it!

                    Happy to help if you have any other questions.

                    Regards
                    Tim
                    L'Hérétique - S28 1975
                  • Joe Kemp
                    I just went through a bit of this. I have a repowered Universal M3-20 so I am not sure how much room the original Atomic provided. I had to cut out my shaft
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013

                      I just went through a bit of this. I have a repowered Universal M3-20 so I am not sure how much room the original Atomic provided.  I had to cut out my shaft because of a failed PSS seal.  The shaft had to be cut between the PSS collar and the stern tube.  I was able to do it with a die grinder with a cut off wheel.  I replaced everything from the flange back: flange, shaft, stuffing box, cutlass bearing, Campbell prop. 

                       

                      I was able to do all work from the quaterberth access panel and by removing the front access panel.  With the front removed I could put the stairs back and lay across the stairs/top of the engine to get both hands on the die grinder.  It’s the only way I know of to get both hands down there.  I had more clearance between the stuffing box and flange, yours looks a bit tight.

                       

                       

                      -Joe

                      1975 S28

                       

                      From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tim_woodworth88
                      Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 1:38 PM
                      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: No Room for Stuffing Box Service

                       

                       



                      Ira -

                      Your post brings back crazy memories of this time last year when I decided to pull the coupling and, while at it, replace the cutlass bearing. It was a nasty job.

                      There's no room in a S28 for the traditional tricks for pressing out the shaft from the coupling with a socket or worse, a stack of dimes. I used a dremel cutoff wheel and a cold chisel to split the coupling. I saved the shaft and replaced the coupling with a split version from Don Moyer. Had to use an angle grinder too since the dremel cutoff did not have the cutting depth to get through the whole flange.

                      As for replacing stuffing... I do this while upside down and crammed in the starboard lazarette. There is just enough room to push in a strand at time. It's tough but doable on my boat. I posted a picture of my setup in the L'Heretique photo album section.

                      Also, I was warned by one of our senior posters of using Graphic impregnated packing on a bronze shaft. Doing this will destroy your bronze shaft. ABYC also says this is not to be done.

                      This job was an avalanche of a project. It all started from a leaky steel gas tank and ended with faring the shaft strut back in place. It was an event but she's a better boat for it!

                      Happy to help if you have any other questions.

                      Regards
                      Tim
                      L'Hérétique - S28 1975

                    • josrulz_2001
                      Tim s mention below about not using graphite packing on a bronze shaft caught my eye. I have no expertise in this, so I m just asking the group if anyone else
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013
                        Tim's mention below about not using graphite packing on a bronze shaft caught my eye. I have no expertise in this, so I'm just asking the group if anyone else has ever heard this. Isn't Gore packing that is so highly recommended one of the graphite types? Sounds like there would be a LOT of boats with that configuration. Can anyone else confirm this issue?
                        Thanks,
                        Jim

                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "tim_woodworth88" <tim.woodworth@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Ira -
                        >
                        > Your post brings back crazy memories of this time last year when I decided to pull the coupling and, while at it, replace the cutlass bearing. It was a nasty job.
                        >
                        > There's no room in a S28 for the traditional tricks for pressing out the shaft from the coupling with a socket or worse, a stack of dimes. I used a dremel cutoff wheel and a cold chisel to split the coupling. I saved the shaft and replaced the coupling with a split version from Don Moyer. Had to use an angle grinder too since the dremel cutoff did not have the cutting depth to get through the whole flange.
                        >
                        > As for replacing stuffing... I do this while upside down and crammed in the starboard lazarette. There is just enough room to push in a strand at time. It's tough but doable on my boat. I posted a picture of my setup in the L'Heretique photo album section.
                        >
                        > Also, I was warned by one of our senior posters of using Graphic impregnated packing on a bronze shaft. Doing this will destroy your bronze shaft. ABYC also says this is not to be done.
                        >
                        > This job was an avalanche of a project. It all started from a leaky steel gas tank and ended with faring the shaft strut back in place. It was an event but she's a better boat for it!
                        >
                        > Happy to help if you have any other questions.
                        >
                        > Regards
                        > Tim
                        > L'Hérétique - S28 1975
                        >
                      • Joe Kemp
                        Here is a little more info from Mainesail http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box &page=3/
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013

                          Here is a little more info from Mainesail http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box&page=3/  Plus it’s a real good write up of how to re-pack a stuffing box.  He has an example of a shaft that had a bad reaction with graphite impregnated packing.

                           

                          From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of josrulz_2001
                          Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:02 PM
                          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: No Room for Stuffing Box Service

                           

                           

                          Tim's mention below about not using graphite packing on a bronze shaft caught my eye. I have no expertise in this, so I'm just asking the group if anyone else has ever heard this. Isn't Gore packing that is so highly recommended one of the graphite types? Sounds like there would be a LOT of boats with that configuration. Can anyone else confirm this issue?
                          Thanks,
                          Jim

                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "tim_woodworth88" <tim.woodworth@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Ira -
                          >
                          > Your post brings back crazy memories of this time last year when I decided to pull the coupling and, while at it, replace the cutlass bearing. It was a nasty job.
                          >
                          > There's no room in a S28 for the traditional tricks for pressing out the shaft from the coupling with a socket or worse, a stack of dimes. I used a dremel cutoff wheel and a cold chisel to split the coupling. I saved the shaft and replaced the coupling with a split version from Don Moyer. Had to use an angle grinder too since the dremel cutoff did not have the cutting depth to get through the whole flange.
                          >
                          > As for replacing stuffing... I do this while upside down and crammed in the starboard lazarette. There is just enough room to push in a strand at time. It's tough but doable on my boat. I posted a picture of my setup in the L'Heretique photo album section.
                          >
                          > Also, I was warned by one of our senior posters of using Graphic impregnated packing on a bronze shaft. Doing this will destroy your bronze shaft. ABYC also says this is not to be done.
                          >
                          > This job was an avalanche of a project. It all started from a leaky steel gas tank and ended with faring the shaft strut back in place. It was an event but she's a better boat for it!
                          >
                          > Happy to help if you have any other questions.
                          >
                          > Regards
                          > Tim
                          > L'Hérétique - S28 1975
                          >

                        • josrulz_2001
                          Damn, I ve read Mainesail s article a bunch of times and missed that. On a Sabre, at least on ours where we tend to run through zincs, I d take no risk there.
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013
                            Damn, I've read Mainesail's article a bunch of times and missed that. On a Sabre, at least on ours where we tend to run through zincs, I'd take no risk there. So that means traditional packing or PSS. At least I found out now. Thanks for the help!


                            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Kemp" <jkemp2@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Here is a little more info from Mainesail
                            > http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box
                            > <http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box&page=3/> &page=3/ Plus
                            > it's a real good write up of how to re-pack a stuffing box. He has an
                            > example of a shaft that had a bad reaction with graphite impregnated
                            > packing.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com]
                            > On Behalf Of josrulz_2001
                            > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:02 PM
                            > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: No Room for Stuffing Box Service
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Tim's mention below about not using graphite packing on a bronze shaft
                            > caught my eye. I have no expertise in this, so I'm just asking the group if
                            > anyone else has ever heard this. Isn't Gore packing that is so highly
                            > recommended one of the graphite types? Sounds like there would be a LOT of
                            > boats with that configuration. Can anyone else confirm this issue?
                            > Thanks,
                            > Jim
                            >
                            > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com> , "tim_woodworth88"
                            > <tim.woodworth@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Ira -
                            > >
                            > > Your post brings back crazy memories of this time last year when I decided
                            > to pull the coupling and, while at it, replace the cutlass bearing. It was a
                            > nasty job.
                            > >
                            > > There's no room in a S28 for the traditional tricks for pressing out the
                            > shaft from the coupling with a socket or worse, a stack of dimes. I used a
                            > dremel cutoff wheel and a cold chisel to split the coupling. I saved the
                            > shaft and replaced the coupling with a split version from Don Moyer. Had to
                            > use an angle grinder too since the dremel cutoff did not have the cutting
                            > depth to get through the whole flange.
                            > >
                            > > As for replacing stuffing... I do this while upside down and crammed in
                            > the starboard lazarette. There is just enough room to push in a strand at
                            > time. It's tough but doable on my boat. I posted a picture of my setup in
                            > the L'Heretique photo album section.
                            > >
                            > > Also, I was warned by one of our senior posters of using Graphic
                            > impregnated packing on a bronze shaft. Doing this will destroy your bronze
                            > shaft. ABYC also says this is not to be done.
                            > >
                            > > This job was an avalanche of a project. It all started from a leaky steel
                            > gas tank and ended with faring the shaft strut back in place. It was an
                            > event but she's a better boat for it!
                            > >
                            > > Happy to help if you have any other questions.
                            > >
                            > > Regards
                            > > Tim
                            > > L'Hérétique - S28 1975
                            > >
                            >
                          • Joe Kemp
                            I guess I will be the test case. I just put in a new Aqualoy 22 shaft with Duramax Ultra-X. I wonder what he meant by regularly checking the shaft? Just look
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013

                              I guess I will be the test case.  I just put in a new Aqualoy 22 shaft with Duramax Ultra-X.  I wonder what he meant by regularly checking the shaft?  Just look for leaks?  The shaft was $228 so hopefully that is all I am risking, plus the machining of the coupling to a new shaft.

                               

                              From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of josrulz_2001
                              Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 6:12 PM
                              To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: No Room for Stuffing Box Service

                               

                               

                              Damn, I've read Mainesail's article a bunch of times and missed that. On a Sabre, at least on ours where we tend to run through zincs, I'd take no risk there. So that means traditional packing or PSS. At least I found out now. Thanks for the help!

                              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Kemp" <jkemp2@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Here is a little more info from Mainesail
                              > http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box
                              > <http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box&page=3/> &page=3/ Plus
                              > it's a real good write up of how to re-pack a stuffing box. He has an
                              > example of a shaft that had a bad reaction with graphite impregnated
                              > packing.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com]
                              > On Behalf Of josrulz_2001
                              > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:02 PM
                              > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: No Room for Stuffing Box Service
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Tim's mention below about not using graphite packing on a bronze shaft
                              > caught my eye. I have no expertise in this, so I'm just asking the group if
                              > anyone else has ever heard this. Isn't Gore packing that is so highly
                              > recommended one of the graphite types? Sounds like there would be a LOT of
                              > boats with that configuration. Can anyone else confirm this issue?
                              > Thanks,
                              > Jim
                              >
                              > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                              > <mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com> , "tim_woodworth88"
                              > <tim.woodworth@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Ira -
                              > >
                              > > Your post brings back crazy memories of this time last year when I decided
                              > to pull the coupling and, while at it, replace the cutlass bearing. It was a
                              > nasty job.
                              > >
                              > > There's no room in a S28 for the traditional tricks for pressing out the
                              > shaft from the coupling with a socket or worse, a stack of dimes. I used a
                              > dremel cutoff wheel and a cold chisel to split the coupling. I saved the
                              > shaft and replaced the coupling with a split version from Don Moyer. Had to
                              > use an angle grinder too since the dremel cutoff did not have the cutting
                              > depth to get through the whole flange.
                              > >
                              > > As for replacing stuffing... I do this while upside down and crammed in
                              > the starboard lazarette. There is just enough room to push in a strand at
                              > time. It's tough but doable on my boat. I posted a picture of my setup in
                              > the L'Heretique photo album section.
                              > >
                              > > Also, I was warned by one of our senior posters of using Graphic
                              > impregnated packing on a bronze shaft. Doing this will destroy your bronze
                              > shaft. ABYC also says this is not to be done.
                              > >
                              > > This job was an avalanche of a project. It all started from a leaky steel
                              > gas tank and ended with faring the shaft strut back in place. It was an
                              > event but she's a better boat for it!
                              > >
                              > > Happy to help if you have any other questions.
                              > >
                              > > Regards
                              > > Tim
                              > > L'Hérétique - S28 1975
                              > >
                              >

                            • tim_woodworth88
                              RC from Mainecrusing sent the following to me last year when I was in throws of the same project. He gave me permission to repost his comments. R.C. writes -
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013
                                RC from Mainecrusing sent the following to me last year when I was in throws of the same project. He gave me permission to repost his comments.

                                R.C. writes -
                                As for GFO and bronze. Graphite is one of the most noble metals on the galvanic scale and zinc one of the least. Bronze shafting is between 32 & 40% zinc. Even a slight malfunction in your shaft zinc and the graphite goes to town pretty quickly on the shaft. Depsite the ABYC prohibiting the use of graphite impregnated packing it can work well on AQ-22 shafting providing good zinc contact and intact zincs. Zinc wear usually increases slightly with graphite impregnated packing.

                                It should be noted that ABYC P-6 specifically says this:

                                "6.7.4 Graphite impregnated packing material shall not be used because of the possibility of galvanic incompatibility with the shaft material."

                                This was a Sabre 34 shaft after one year with graphite packing on a bronze shaft. Shaft was like new prior...

                                http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/139144123.jpg


                                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "josrulz_2001" <josrulz_2001@...> wrote:
                                > Can anyone else confirm this issue?



                                > Thanks,
                                > Jim
                              • mainecruising
                                You guys might also want to check out this short video I made... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfbD7cFfY70&feature=share&list=UUoPqTkOlu Qsuu3RpGnxVwFw
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013
                                  You guys might also want to check out this short video I made...

                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfbD7cFfY70&feature=share&list=UUoPqTkOluQsuu3RpGnxVwFw

                                  Please don't misconstrue my info below. I still like graphite packings but they MUST be used with caution and the shaft needs to be checked annually. I no longer will install graphite packings on bronze shafts. Graphite packings also can and do accelerate zinc erosion even on AQ-22 shafts..

                                  -RC


                                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "tim_woodworth88" <tim.woodworth@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > RC from Mainecrusing sent the following to me last year when I was in throws of the same project. He gave me permission to repost his comments.
                                  >
                                  > R.C. writes -
                                  > As for GFO and bronze. Graphite is one of the most noble metals on the galvanic scale and zinc one of the least. Bronze shafting is between 32 & 40% zinc. Even a slight malfunction in your shaft zinc and the graphite goes to town pretty quickly on the shaft. Depsite the ABYC prohibiting the use of graphite impregnated packing it can work well on AQ-22 shafting providing good zinc contact and intact zincs. Zinc wear usually increases slightly with graphite impregnated packing.
                                  >
                                  > It should be noted that ABYC P-6 specifically says this:
                                  >
                                  > "6.7.4 Graphite impregnated packing material shall not be used because of the possibility of galvanic incompatibility with the shaft material."
                                  >
                                  > This was a Sabre 34 shaft after one year with graphite packing on a bronze shaft. Shaft was like new prior...
                                  >
                                  > http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/139144123.jpg
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "josrulz_2001" josrulz_2001@ wrote:
                                  > > Can anyone else confirm this issue?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > Thanks,
                                  > > Jim
                                  >
                                • Jim Starkey
                                  I m having a lot of trouble with this. Maybe somebody can explain. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, often with other stuff like nickel thrown in. Copper
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013
                                    I'm having a lot of trouble with this.  Maybe somebody can explain.

                                    Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, often with other stuff like nickel thrown in.  Copper alloyed with zinc is brass, not bronze.  As I understand it, there is no such thing as bronze with 30% zinc.  (Historical note:  bronze cannon were sometimes referred to as brass, or so Patrick O'Brian (sic) has Jack explaining to Steven.)

                                    Graphite is carbon.  It isn't a metal.  It's soft and moderates neutrons (if sufficiently pure), but doesn't react with anything but oxygen and neutrons.

                                    I'm puzzled.


                                    On 3/31/2013 7:11 PM, tim_woodworth88 wrote:
                                     

                                    RC from Mainecrusing sent the following to me last year when I was in throws of the same project. He gave me permission to repost his comments.

                                    R.C. writes -
                                    As for GFO and bronze. Graphite is one of the most noble metals on the galvanic scale and zinc one of the least. Bronze shafting is between 32 & 40% zinc. Even a slight malfunction in your shaft zinc and the graphite goes to town pretty quickly on the shaft. Depsite the ABYC prohibiting the use of graphite impregnated packing it can work well on AQ-22 shafting providing good zinc contact and intact zincs. Zinc wear usually increases slightly with graphite impregnated packing.

                                    It should be noted that ABYC P-6 specifically says this:

                                    "6.7.4 Graphite impregnated packing material shall not be used because of the possibility of galvanic incompatibility with the shaft material."

                                    This was a Sabre 34 shaft after one year with graphite packing on a bronze shaft. Shaft was like new prior...

                                    http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/139144123.jpg

                                    --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "josrulz_2001" <josrulz_2001@...> wrote:
                                    > Can anyone else confirm this issue?

                                    > Thanks,
                                    > Jim


                                  • Joe Kemp
                                    I believe graphite is considered a semi-metal. For instance it conducts electricity. Look at the GALVANIC CORROSION: section in the following article
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013

                                      I believe graphite is considered a semi-metal.  For instance it conducts electricity.  Look at the “GALVANIC CORROSION:” section in the following article http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/111994.  Graphite is #2 and Bronze is #5.  That means if you put the two together, graphite wins. 

                                       

                                      From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Starkey
                                      Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 7:41 PM
                                      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: No Room for Stuffing Box Service

                                       

                                       

                                      I'm having a lot of trouble with this.  Maybe somebody can explain.

                                      Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, often with other stuff like nickel thrown in.  Copper alloyed with zinc is brass, not bronze.  As I understand it, there is no such thing as bronze with 30% zinc.  (Historical note:  bronze cannon were sometimes referred to as brass, or so Patrick O'Brian (sic) has Jack explaining to Steven.)

                                      Graphite is carbon.  It isn't a metal.  It's soft and moderates neutrons (if sufficiently pure), but doesn't react with anything but oxygen and neutrons.

                                      I'm puzzled.


                                      On 3/31/2013 7:11 PM, tim_woodworth88 wrote:

                                       

                                      RC from Mainecrusing sent the following to me last year when I was in throws of the same project. He gave me permission to repost his comments.

                                      R.C. writes -
                                      As for GFO and bronze. Graphite is one of the most noble metals on the galvanic scale and zinc one of the least. Bronze shafting is between 32 & 40% zinc. Even a slight malfunction in your shaft zinc and the graphite goes to town pretty quickly on the shaft. Depsite the ABYC prohibiting the use of graphite impregnated packing it can work well on AQ-22 shafting providing good zinc contact and intact zincs. Zinc wear usually increases slightly with graphite impregnated packing.

                                      It should be noted that ABYC P-6 specifically says this:

                                      "6.7.4 Graphite impregnated packing material shall not be used because of the possibility of galvanic incompatibility with the shaft material."

                                      This was a Sabre 34 shaft after one year with graphite packing on a bronze shaft. Shaft was like new prior...

                                      http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/139144123.jpg

                                      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "josrulz_2001" <josrulz_2001@...> wrote:
                                      > Can anyone else confirm this issue?

                                      > Thanks,
                                      > Jim

                                       

                                    • sailor11767
                                      Jim, As a longtime sailor, son of a materials scientist, and mechanical engineer myself, I long believed just what you say about bronze and brass. I ve
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013
                                        Jim,

                                        As a longtime sailor, son of a materials scientist, and mechanical engineer myself, I long believed just what you say about bronze and brass. I've recently had a "mental adjustment" and now have no idea.

                                        Take, for instance, this site, which lists Naval Bronze as 60% copper, balance zinc.
                                        http://www.inweldcorporation.com/datasheets/Inweld%20Naval%20Bronze.pdf

                                        Or this site, which lists Manganese Bronze as copper, manganese, aluminum, and iron -- but no tin OR zinc!
                                        http://www.concast.com/alloys-manganese-bronze.php

                                        I now consider the terms brass and bronze to be meaningless indications of copper alloys.

                                        Harry

                                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jim@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I'm having a lot of trouble with this. Maybe somebody can explain.
                                        >
                                        > Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, often with other stuff like nickel
                                        > thrown in. Copper alloyed with zinc is brass, not bronze. As I
                                        > understand it, there is no such thing as bronze with 30% zinc.
                                        >
                                      • mainecruising
                                        Jim, There are LOTS of brasses in the marine environment referred to as bronze because they ve thwon in some tin and called it a bronze . Tobin bronze
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013
                                          Jim,

                                          There are LOTS of brasses in the marine environment referred to as "bronze" because they've thwon in some "tin" and called it a "bronze".

                                          Tobin bronze shafting (this was the good stuff) or manganese bronze shafting (what we wound up with after we could no longer get tobin bronze) is quite high in zinc content. Probably a good thing you can no longer get it....

                                          Manganese bronze props, the majority of sailboat props are manganese bronze, are also very high in zinc content and it is why they can dezincify, become brittle and fail. The coppery color of the flaking metal on that pictured shaft is the result of localized extreme dezincification making the shaft brittle.

                                          Other areas where high zinc bronzes are used would be struts and some packing glands. Most good quality UL Marine seacocks will be made of 85-5-5-5 bronze which is about as good as it gets in the marine environment in a bronze.

                                          Graphite is basically the top element on the galvanic scale. It has a voltage potential of about +0.3 +/- and zinc has a potential of -1.0 +/-...

                                          -RC




                                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jim@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I'm having a lot of trouble with this. Maybe somebody can explain.
                                          >
                                          > Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, often with other stuff like nickel
                                          > thrown in. Copper alloyed with zinc is brass, not bronze. As I
                                          > understand it, there is no such thing as bronze with 30% zinc.
                                          > (Historical note: bronze cannon were sometimes referred to as brass, or
                                          > so Patrick O'Brian (sic) has Jack explaining to Steven.)
                                          >
                                          > Graphite is carbon. It isn't a metal. It's soft and moderates neutrons
                                          > (if sufficiently pure), but doesn't react with anything but oxygen and
                                          > neutrons.
                                          >
                                          > I'm puzzled.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On 3/31/2013 7:11 PM, tim_woodworth88 wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > RC from Mainecrusing sent the following to me last year when I was in
                                          > > throws of the same project. He gave me permission to repost his comments.
                                          > >
                                          > > R.C. writes -
                                          > > As for GFO and bronze. Graphite is one of the most noble metals on the
                                          > > galvanic scale and zinc one of the least. Bronze shafting is between
                                          > > 32 & 40% zinc. Even a slight malfunction in your shaft zinc and the
                                          > > graphite goes to town pretty quickly on the shaft. Depsite the ABYC
                                          > > prohibiting the use of graphite impregnated packing it can work well
                                          > > on AQ-22 shafting providing good zinc contact and intact zincs. Zinc
                                          > > wear usually increases slightly with graphite impregnated packing.
                                          > >
                                          > > It should be noted that ABYC P-6 specifically says this:
                                          > >
                                          > > "6.7.4 Graphite impregnated packing material shall not be used because
                                          > > of the possibility of galvanic incompatibility with the shaft material."
                                          > >
                                          > > This was a Sabre 34 shaft after one year with graphite packing on a
                                          > > bronze shaft. Shaft was like new prior...
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/139144123.jpg
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > <mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>, "josrulz_2001"
                                          > > <josrulz_2001@> wrote:
                                          > > > Can anyone else confirm this issue?
                                          > >
                                          > > > Thanks,
                                          > > > Jim
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Ira Baline
                                          Thanks for all of the ideas. Don t we all LOVE a good discussion thread? I put another pic in Morning Star s album showing a view from the starboard side.
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013
                                            Thanks for all of the ideas. Don't we all LOVE a good discussion thread?

                                            I put another pic in Morning Star's album showing a view from the starboard side. Perhaps there is a little room to slide the hose back. I like Wayne's idea about backing off the lock nut rather than just tightening and I might try adding material in the big nut thinking that the existing is compressed somewhat.

                                            Perhaps I'll remove the tank in the fall and go for a more permant solution including replacing the coupling then.

                                            On a seasonal note, I removed the tarps today. A balmy 60 degrees on Cape Anne!

                                            Thanks again,

                                            Ira B
                                            Morning Star 28-1 #104






                                            On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 9:01 PM, sailor11767 <sailor11767@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            Jim,

                                            As a longtime sailor, son of a materials scientist, and mechanical engineer myself, I long believed just what you say about bronze and brass. I've recently had a "mental adjustment" and now have no idea.

                                            Take, for instance, this site, which lists Naval Bronze as 60% copper, balance zinc.
                                            http://www.inweldcorporation.com/datasheets/Inweld%20Naval%20Bronze.pdf

                                            Or this site, which lists Manganese Bronze as copper, manganese, aluminum, and iron -- but no tin OR zinc!
                                            http://www.concast.com/alloys-manganese-bronze.php

                                            I now consider the terms brass and bronze to be meaningless indications of copper alloys.

                                            Harry



                                            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jim@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I'm having a lot of trouble with this. Maybe somebody can explain.
                                            >
                                            > Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, often with other stuff like nickel
                                            > thrown in. Copper alloyed with zinc is brass, not bronze. As I
                                            > understand it, there is no such thing as bronze with 30% zinc.
                                            >


                                          • Carter Brey
                                            Jim, What, you never made a foxhole radio as a kid or read about how to make one in a Rick Brant Science Mystery?
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Mar 31, 2013

                                              Jim,

                                              What, you never made a foxhole radio as a kid or read about how to make one in a Rick Brant Science Mystery?

                                              http://books.google.com/books?id=9cl1rAzdgLYC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=make+a+radio+out+of+a+razor+blade+and+pencil+stub&source=bl&ots=w3AzjZ2_P5&sig=Z6pgXQhR99UjSxA43RCRKhkCajc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0-FYUYfBF6Xb0wGFloDQCg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw

                                              A very important component, in addition to the use of a blued razor blade as a diode, is a cat's whisker made from a safety pin pushed into a graphite pencil stub.

                                              CB

                                              On Mar 31, 2013 7:41 PM, "Jim Starkey" <jim@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              I'm having a lot of trouble with this.  Maybe somebody can explain.

                                              Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, often with other stuff like nickel thrown in.  Copper alloyed with zinc is brass, not bronze.  As I understand it, there is no such thing as bronze with 30% zinc.  (Historical note:  bronze cannon were sometimes referred to as brass, or so Patrick O'Brian (sic) has Jack explaining to Steven.)

                                              Graphite is carbon.  It isn't a metal.  It's soft and moderates neutrons (if sufficiently pure), but doesn't react with anything but oxygen and neutrons.

                                              I'm puzzled.


                                              On 3/31/2013 7:11 PM, tim_woodworth88 wrote:
                                               

                                              RC from Mainecrusing sent the following to me last year when I was in throws of the same project. He gave me permission to repost his comments.

                                              R.C. writes -
                                              As for GFO and bronze. Graphite is one of the most noble metals on the galvanic scale and zinc one of the least. Bronze shafting is between 32 & 40% zinc. Even a slight malfunction in your shaft zinc and the graphite goes to town pretty quickly on the shaft. Depsite the ABYC prohibiting the use of graphite impregnated packing it can work well on AQ-22 shafting providing good zinc contact and intact zincs. Zinc wear usually increases slightly with graphite impregnated packing.

                                              It should be noted that ABYC P-6 specifically says this:

                                              "6.7.4 Graphite impregnated packing material shall not be used because of the possibility of galvanic incompatibility with the shaft material."

                                              This was a Sabre 34 shaft after one year with graphite packing on a bronze shaft. Shaft was like new prior...

                                              http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/139144123.jpg

                                              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "josrulz_2001" <josrulz_2001@...> wrote:
                                              > Can anyone else confirm this issue?

                                              > Thanks,
                                              > Jim


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