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Re: [SabreSailboat] America's Cup, Volvo Ocean Race, et al

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  • john kalinowski
    Have to disagree Pete. F1 is boring to me.Nothing but has been fighter jet companies who could not compete with  Boeing, Gumman, and General Dynamics.  So
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 21, 2013
      Have to disagree Pete.

      F1 is boring to me.
      Nothing but has been fighter jet companies who could not compete with  Boeing, Gumman, and General Dynamics.  So they pick on guys who just wanted to race cars and made everything  expensive.

      I love the glory days of sport car racing or NASCAR when it was a real car under the livery.

      AC boats were at their finest in Freemantle.
      Real boats, real crews, real wind and real seas.
      Turned it into an athletic event as much as a technology event.

      This building a boat for a venue and the wind limitations is baloney.
      Funny how these rich clowns are only now discovering what use beach cat guys knew in the 70s.  Of course they will overspend to try and get an advantage or/or bankrupt their competitors.  

      Been useless since Dennis defended Faye's monster monohull with the Stars and Stripes catamaran.

      I get more our of the Volvo Ocean series than these "boats".
      In the end, these freaks will fade just like the J boats.
      The cost to play will be too high to justify.


      --- On Thu, 3/21/13, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:

      From: Peter Tollini <pete@...>
      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] America's Cup, Volvo Ocean Race, et al
      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013, 3:52 PM

       

      Jim
      All true, but I'm sure similar things were said about the J-Class yachts and their owners.  
      Formula One is to an Accord what AC72s are to our boats. Helmets required; speeds insane and similarity to normality nil. But, damn, they are exciting to watch.
      The drop off in cruising sailing is a subject for an entirely different discussion.
      Pete


      On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Richard Coerse <rcoerse@...> wrote:
       

      Amen Jim!



      Jim Starkey wrote:
       

      <rant>
      Spectacles like the current America's Cup and the Volvo Ocean race are
      doing nothing good for our sport and, mostly likely, quite a bit of damage.

      These events are designed by and for the benefit of sailing rock stars.
      To generate the big bucks, they need major sponsorships, and for major
      sponsorships, they need major coverage, which means TV. And TV means
      excitement, apparent danger, and at least the prospect of a major
      crash. And these events deliver. The America's Cup has mutated from a
      friendly competition between nations to a demolition potlatch between
      billionaires.

      The argument made to sailing community is that they bring sailing to the
      masses, encouraging people to try it as a sport or for recreation. This
      is nuts. Non-sailors attracted to the America's cup largely fall into
      two disjoint categories: Those who will discover that "real" sailing
      has nothing to do with 40 knot 70 foot hydrofoil catamarans and is,
      therefore, boring, and those think exposing their families to that is
      absolutely crazy.

      Cruising sailing is rapidly becoming an endangered species. We see it
      in our club as the average age of cruisers advances by about a year per
      year and in Maine with long term drop off in boats in prime anchorages.
      In our club, younger members are more likely to have power boats
      unsuitable for cruising. A primary cause seems to be their ludicrously
      over-scheduled children who can't find time between tennis camp and
      soccer camp for a trip down east, but this probably generalizes to an
      unwillingness to commit to any time consuming avocation.

      Whatever the deeper reasons are, these crazy races restricted to top
      tier professional racers and expendable boats aren't doing us -- or our
      chosen lifestyle -- any good. The technology doesn't trickle down and
      the audience doesn't turn to sailing as we know it.

      When I said that I missed the 12s, I didn't mean the 12 meter rule, but
      the era when a club could fund a syndicate, where the designs, boats,
      and crew all came from the country they represented, the boats all
      looked like sailboats, and the competition intense, but friendly. But I
      also love 12s. The one time I steered one the width of my grin exceeded
      the beam of the boat.

      There's probably nothing to do any of this but wait it out. In the
      short term, Maine has so many empty moorings that an anchor almost isn't
      needed any more. In some ways, less crowded is probably better. But I
      just hate to see a gracious way of life eclipsed by preposterous boats
      sailed by armored gladiators.

      </rant>




    • Robert Carter
      All for more empty moorings downeast. For those of us who sail primarily in August with family, uncrowded harbors is a delicious thought. Hate having to get in
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 21, 2013
        All for more empty moorings downeast. For those of us who sail primarily in August with family, uncrowded harbors is a delicious thought. Hate having to get in order to get a mooring just as the wind pipes up.

        Bob Carter
        Andiamo S38
      • Jules Bender
        Jim, I enjoyed reading your rant, while I still like to cruise and race my slow boat I wouldn t be too hasty about condemning these new boats, they still use
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 21, 2013
          Jim, I enjoyed reading your rant, while I still like to cruise and race my slow boat I wouldn't be too hasty about condemning these new boats, they still use sails, have a head sail and main sail, tack, use winches (okay grinders) go upwind, reach and downwind, have halyards and sheets....interesting point about the decrease in the interest in sailing, I assume this has more to do with the economy, but I don't track that data ....my wife has given up on sailing, gets seasick, for my 2 sons I'm sure there's not enough action......I just think there's a core number of people that are drawn to it and that's the way it is ......Jules

          On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Jim Starkey <jim@...> wrote:
           

          <rant>
          Spectacles like the current America's Cup and the Volvo Ocean race are
          doing nothing good for our sport and, mostly likely, quite a bit of damage.

          These events are designed by and for the benefit of sailing rock stars.
          To generate the big bucks, they need major sponsorships, and for major
          sponsorships, they need major coverage, which means TV. And TV means
          excitement, apparent danger, and at least the prospect of a major
          crash. And these events deliver. The America's Cup has mutated from a
          friendly competition between nations to a demolition potlatch between
          billionaires.

          The argument made to sailing community is that they bring sailing to the
          masses, encouraging people to try it as a sport or for recreation. This
          is nuts. Non-sailors attracted to the America's cup largely fall into
          two disjoint categories: Those who will discover that "real" sailing
          has nothing to do with 40 knot 70 foot hydrofoil catamarans and is,
          therefore, boring, and those think exposing their families to that is
          absolutely crazy.

          Cruising sailing is rapidly becoming an endangered species. We see it
          in our club as the average age of cruisers advances by about a year per
          year and in Maine with long term drop off in boats in prime anchorages.
          In our club, younger members are more likely to have power boats
          unsuitable for cruising. A primary cause seems to be their ludicrously
          over-scheduled children who can't find time between tennis camp and
          soccer camp for a trip down east, but this probably generalizes to an
          unwillingness to commit to any time consuming avocation.

          Whatever the deeper reasons are, these crazy races restricted to top
          tier professional racers and expendable boats aren't doing us -- or our
          chosen lifestyle -- any good. The technology doesn't trickle down and
          the audience doesn't turn to sailing as we know it.

          When I said that I missed the 12s, I didn't mean the 12 meter rule, but
          the era when a club could fund a syndicate, where the designs, boats,
          and crew all came from the country they represented, the boats all
          looked like sailboats, and the competition intense, but friendly. But I
          also love 12s. The one time I steered one the width of my grin exceeded
          the beam of the boat.

          There's probably nothing to do any of this but wait it out. In the
          short term, Maine has so many empty moorings that an anchor almost isn't
          needed any more. In some ways, less crowded is probably better. But I
          just hate to see a gracious way of life eclipsed by preposterous boats
          sailed by armored gladiators.

          </rant>


        • walkabout193
          Jules Point of fact - the AC cats do not use sails as we know them, they are rigid wings, they can t be raised and lowered or reefed. When have you seen crew
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 22, 2013
            Jules

            Point of fact - the AC cats do not use "sails" as we know them, they are rigid wings, they can't be raised and lowered or reefed. When have you seen crew wearing helmets for racing before this? But in any case, it's going to be pretty exciting. Even if its not what I do, I might still like it.

            I'll take issue with the tech transfer statement. I am looking seriously at replacing the rod rigging (when the time comes) with either the carbon fiber shrouds by Hall or the Dynex Dux by Colligo. Taking 250 lbs off my rig, the a CG of what 25' above the deck will really improve my sailing performance and I get to keep all my gorgeous cherry interior. These are technologies that are directly dependent upon development through the high end racing market. If you have the opportunity, pay a visit to Hall Spars in Bristol. Nan Hall will give you a shop tour if you ask politely and the carbon fiber work is really impressive. I envy a CF V-boom something awful.

            To Jim's point, I surely don't miss crowded anchorages. That being said, I haven't found the popular Maine anchorages to be particularly empty. The summer of 2011 we had 10 cruising boats anchored at Roque Island; the Cow's Yard had a half dozen; the Mud Hole had five boat and I couldn't get to the middle with my 6'-6" draft. And these are anchorages so far down east they practically speak Chinese! Anybody able to report empty space at Hadley's this past July?

            We're heading for Nova Scotia this summer. I'll report back to the group about the status of crowded anchorages way way down east. Jaimie, I'll be ringing you up soon to get your recommendations.

            Len Bertaux
            Walkabout S38 MKII

            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jules Bender <julesbender@...> wrote:
            >
            > Jim, I enjoyed reading your rant, while I still like to cruise and race my
            > slow boat I wouldn't be too hasty about condemning these new boats, they
            > still use sails, have a head sail and main sail, tack, use winches (okay
            > grinders) go upwind, reach and downwind, have halyards and
            > sheets....interesting point about the decrease in the interest in sailing,
            > I assume this has more to do with the economy, but I don't track that data
            > ....my wife has given up on sailing, gets seasick, for my 2 sons I'm sure
            > there's not enough action......I just think there's a core number of people
            > that are drawn to it and that's the way it is .....[?].Jules
            >
            > On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Jim Starkey <jim@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > <rant>
            > > Spectacles like the current America's Cup and the Volvo Ocean race are
            > > doing nothing good for our sport and, mostly likely, quite a bit of damage.
            > >
            > > These events are designed by and for the benefit of sailing rock stars.
            > > To generate the big bucks, they need major sponsorships, and for major
            > > sponsorships, they need major coverage, which means TV. And TV means
            > > excitement, apparent danger, and at least the prospect of a major
            > > crash. And these events deliver. The America's Cup has mutated from a
            > > friendly competition between nations to a demolition potlatch between
            > > billionaires.
            > >
            > > The argument made to sailing community is that they bring sailing to the
            > > masses, encouraging people to try it as a sport or for recreation. This
            > > is nuts. Non-sailors attracted to the America's cup largely fall into
            > > two disjoint categories: Those who will discover that "real" sailing
            > > has nothing to do with 40 knot 70 foot hydrofoil catamarans and is,
            > > therefore, boring, and those think exposing their families to that is
            > > absolutely crazy.
            > >
            > > Cruising sailing is rapidly becoming an endangered species. We see it
            > > in our club as the average age of cruisers advances by about a year per
            > > year and in Maine with long term drop off in boats in prime anchorages.
            > > In our club, younger members are more likely to have power boats
            > > unsuitable for cruising. A primary cause seems to be their ludicrously
            > > over-scheduled children who can't find time between tennis camp and
            > > soccer camp for a trip down east, but this probably generalizes to an
            > > unwillingness to commit to any time consuming avocation.
            > >
            > > Whatever the deeper reasons are, these crazy races restricted to top
            > > tier professional racers and expendable boats aren't doing us -- or our
            > > chosen lifestyle -- any good. The technology doesn't trickle down and
            > > the audience doesn't turn to sailing as we know it.
            > >
            > > When I said that I missed the 12s, I didn't mean the 12 meter rule, but
            > > the era when a club could fund a syndicate, where the designs, boats,
            > > and crew all came from the country they represented, the boats all
            > > looked like sailboats, and the competition intense, but friendly. But I
            > > also love 12s. The one time I steered one the width of my grin exceeded
            > > the beam of the boat.
            > >
            > > There's probably nothing to do any of this but wait it out. In the
            > > short term, Maine has so many empty moorings that an anchor almost isn't
            > > needed any more. In some ways, less crowded is probably better. But I
            > > just hate to see a gracious way of life eclipsed by preposterous boats
            > > sailed by armored gladiators.
            > >
            > > </rant>
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Jim Starkey
            Speaking of the Mud Hole, a fair number of years back we found Endeavor, the J boat, anchored directly outside with a diver down. The crew wouldn t admit to
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 22, 2013
              Speaking of the Mud Hole, a fair number of years back we found Endeavor, the J boat, anchored directly outside with a diver down.  The crew wouldn't admit to any difficulty at all, so we'll have to guess.  But even with two boats, if one is a J, the Mud Hole would be crowded.

              For those unfamiliar with the Mud Hole, count your blessings.  It's a thoroughly nasty place that people only go to test the forbearance of their insurance companies.  It's small, rocky, and surrounded by nasty carnivorous birds and flesh eating seals.  Jules never should have brought it up.

               
              On 3/22/13 2:34 PM, walkabout193 wrote:
               

              Jules

              Point of fact - the AC cats do not use "sails" as we know them, they are rigid wings, they can't be raised and lowered or reefed. When have you seen crew wearing helmets for racing before this? But in any case, it's going to be pretty exciting. Even if its not what I do, I might still like it.

              I'll take issue with the tech transfer statement. I am looking seriously at replacing the rod rigging (when the time comes) with either the carbon fiber shrouds by Hall or the Dynex Dux by Colligo. Taking 250 lbs off my rig, the a CG of what 25' above the deck will really improve my sailing performance and I get to keep all my gorgeous cherry interior. These are technologies that are directly dependent upon development through the high end racing market. If you have the opportunity, pay a visit to Hall Spars in Bristol. Nan Hall will give you a shop tour if you ask politely and the carbon fiber work is really impressive. I envy a CF V-boom something awful.

              To Jim's point, I surely don't miss crowded anchorages. That being said, I haven't found the popular Maine anchorages to be particularly empty. The summer of 2011 we had 10 cruising boats anchored at Roque Island; the Cow's Yard had a half dozen; the Mud Hole had five boat and I couldn't get to the middle with my 6'-6" draft. And these are anchorages so far down east they practically speak Chinese! Anybody able to report empty space at Hadley's this past July?

              We're heading for Nova Scotia this summer. I'll report back to the group about the status of crowded anchorages way way down east. Jaimie, I'll be ringing you up soon to get your recommendations.

              Len Bertaux
              Walkabout S38 MKII

              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jules Bender <julesbender@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jim, I enjoyed reading your rant, while I still like to cruise and race my
              > slow boat I wouldn't be too hasty about condemning these new boats, they
              > still use sails, have a head sail and main sail, tack, use winches (okay
              > grinders) go upwind, reach and downwind, have halyards and
              > sheets....interesting point about the decrease in the interest in sailing,
              > I assume this has more to do with the economy, but I don't track that data
              > ....my wife has given up on sailing, gets seasick, for my 2 sons I'm sure
              > there's not enough action......I just think there's a core number of people
              > that are drawn to it and that's the way it is .....[?].Jules
              >
              > On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Jim Starkey <jim@...> wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > > <rant>
              > > Spectacles like the current America's Cup and the Volvo Ocean race are
              > > doing nothing good for our sport and, mostly likely, quite a bit of damage.
              > >
              > > These events are designed by and for the benefit of sailing rock stars.
              > > To generate the big bucks, they need major sponsorships, and for major
              > > sponsorships, they need major coverage, which means TV. And TV means
              > > excitement, apparent danger, and at least the prospect of a major
              > > crash. And these events deliver. The America's Cup has mutated from a
              > > friendly competition between nations to a demolition potlatch between
              > > billionaires.
              > >
              > > The argument made to sailing community is that they bring sailing to the
              > > masses, encouraging people to try it as a sport or for recreation. This
              > > is nuts. Non-sailors attracted to the America's cup largely fall into
              > > two disjoint categories: Those who will discover that "real" sailing
              > > has nothing to do with 40 knot 70 foot hydrofoil catamarans and is,
              > > therefore, boring, and those think exposing their families to that is
              > > absolutely crazy.
              > >
              > > Cruising sailing is rapidly becoming an endangered species. We see it
              > > in our club as the average age of cruisers advances by about a year per
              > > year and in Maine with long term drop off in boats in prime anchorages.
              > > In our club, younger members are more likely to have power boats
              > > unsuitable for cruising. A primary cause seems to be their ludicrously
              > > over-scheduled children who can't find time between tennis camp and
              > > soccer camp for a trip down east, but this probably generalizes to an
              > > unwillingness to commit to any time consuming avocation.
              > >
              > > Whatever the deeper reasons are, these crazy races restricted to top
              > > tier professional racers and expendable boats aren't doing us -- or our
              > > chosen lifestyle -- any good. The technology doesn't trickle down and
              > > the audience doesn't turn to sailing as we know it.
              > >
              > > When I said that I missed the 12s, I didn't mean the 12 meter rule, but
              > > the era when a club could fund a syndicate, where the designs, boats,
              > > and crew all came from the country they represented, the boats all
              > > looked like sailboats, and the competition intense, but friendly. But I
              > > also love 12s. The one time I steered one the width of my grin exceeded
              > > the beam of the boat.
              > >
              > > There's probably nothing to do any of this but wait it out. In the
              > > short term, Maine has so many empty moorings that an anchor almost isn't
              > > needed any more. In some ways, less crowded is probably better. But I
              > > just hate to see a gracious way of life eclipsed by preposterous boats
              > > sailed by armored gladiators.
              > >
              > > </rant>
              > >
              > >
              >


            • walkabout193
              Hmmm, a J boat at the entrance to the Mud Hole, diver down....probably didn t pay close attention to the instructions and were more than 10 off the southern
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 22, 2013
                Hmmm, a J boat at the entrance to the Mud Hole, diver down....probably didn't pay close attention to the instructions and were more than 10' off the southern bank. Very, very nasty to the north side!

                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jim@...> wrote:
                >
                > Speaking of the Mud Hole, a fair number of years back we found Endeavor,
                > the J boat, anchored directly outside with a diver down. The crew
                > wouldn't admit to any difficulty at all, so we'll have to guess. But
                > even with two boats, if one is a J, the Mud Hole would be crowded.
                >
                > For those unfamiliar with the Mud Hole, count your blessings. It's a
                > thoroughly nasty place that people only go to test the forbearance of
                > their insurance companies. It's small, rocky, and surrounded by nasty
                > carnivorous birds and flesh eating seals. Jules never should have
                > brought it up.
                >
                >
                > On 3/22/13 2:34 PM, walkabout193 wrote:
                > >
                > > Jules
                > >
                > > Point of fact - the AC cats do not use "sails" as we know them, they
                > > are rigid wings, they can't be raised and lowered or reefed. When have
                > > you seen crew wearing helmets for racing before this? But in any case,
                > > it's going to be pretty exciting. Even if its not what I do, I might
                > > still like it.
                > >
                > > I'll take issue with the tech transfer statement. I am looking
                > > seriously at replacing the rod rigging (when the time comes) with
                > > either the carbon fiber shrouds by Hall or the Dynex Dux by Colligo.
                > > Taking 250 lbs off my rig, the a CG of what 25' above the deck will
                > > really improve my sailing performance and I get to keep all my
                > > gorgeous cherry interior. These are technologies that are directly
                > > dependent upon development through the high end racing market. If you
                > > have the opportunity, pay a visit to Hall Spars in Bristol. Nan Hall
                > > will give you a shop tour if you ask politely and the carbon fiber
                > > work is really impressive. I envy a CF V-boom something awful.
                > >
                > > To Jim's point, I surely don't miss crowded anchorages. That being
                > > said, I haven't found the popular Maine anchorages to be particularly
                > > empty. The summer of 2011 we had 10 cruising boats anchored at Roque
                > > Island; the Cow's Yard had a half dozen; the Mud Hole had five boat
                > > and I couldn't get to the middle with my 6'-6" draft. And these are
                > > anchorages so far down east they practically speak Chinese! Anybody
                > > able to report empty space at Hadley's this past July?
                > >
                > > We're heading for Nova Scotia this summer. I'll report back to the
                > > group about the status of crowded anchorages way way down east.
                > > Jaimie, I'll be ringing you up soon to get your recommendations.
                > >
                > > Len Bertaux
                > > Walkabout S38 MKII
                > >
                > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                > > <mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>, Jules Bender
                > > <julesbender@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Jim, I enjoyed reading your rant, while I still like to cruise and
                > > race my
                > > > slow boat I wouldn't be too hasty about condemning these new boats, they
                > > > still use sails, have a head sail and main sail, tack, use winches (okay
                > > > grinders) go upwind, reach and downwind, have halyards and
                > > > sheets....interesting point about the decrease in the interest in
                > > sailing,
                > > > I assume this has more to do with the economy, but I don't track
                > > that data
                > > > ....my wife has given up on sailing, gets seasick, for my 2 sons I'm
                > > sure
                > > > there's not enough action......I just think there's a core number of
                > > people
                > > > that are drawn to it and that's the way it is .....[?].Jules
                > > >
                > > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Jim Starkey <jim@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > **
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > <rant>
                > > > > Spectacles like the current America's Cup and the Volvo Ocean race are
                > > > > doing nothing good for our sport and, mostly likely, quite a bit
                > > of damage.
                > > > >
                > > > > These events are designed by and for the benefit of sailing rock
                > > stars.
                > > > > To generate the big bucks, they need major sponsorships, and for major
                > > > > sponsorships, they need major coverage, which means TV. And TV means
                > > > > excitement, apparent danger, and at least the prospect of a major
                > > > > crash. And these events deliver. The America's Cup has mutated from a
                > > > > friendly competition between nations to a demolition potlatch between
                > > > > billionaires.
                > > > >
                > > > > The argument made to sailing community is that they bring sailing
                > > to the
                > > > > masses, encouraging people to try it as a sport or for recreation.
                > > This
                > > > > is nuts. Non-sailors attracted to the America's cup largely fall into
                > > > > two disjoint categories: Those who will discover that "real" sailing
                > > > > has nothing to do with 40 knot 70 foot hydrofoil catamarans and is,
                > > > > therefore, boring, and those think exposing their families to that is
                > > > > absolutely crazy.
                > > > >
                > > > > Cruising sailing is rapidly becoming an endangered species. We see it
                > > > > in our club as the average age of cruisers advances by about a
                > > year per
                > > > > year and in Maine with long term drop off in boats in prime
                > > anchorages.
                > > > > In our club, younger members are more likely to have power boats
                > > > > unsuitable for cruising. A primary cause seems to be their ludicrously
                > > > > over-scheduled children who can't find time between tennis camp and
                > > > > soccer camp for a trip down east, but this probably generalizes to an
                > > > > unwillingness to commit to any time consuming avocation.
                > > > >
                > > > > Whatever the deeper reasons are, these crazy races restricted to top
                > > > > tier professional racers and expendable boats aren't doing us --
                > > or our
                > > > > chosen lifestyle -- any good. The technology doesn't trickle down and
                > > > > the audience doesn't turn to sailing as we know it.
                > > > >
                > > > > When I said that I missed the 12s, I didn't mean the 12 meter
                > > rule, but
                > > > > the era when a club could fund a syndicate, where the designs, boats,
                > > > > and crew all came from the country they represented, the boats all
                > > > > looked like sailboats, and the competition intense, but friendly.
                > > But I
                > > > > also love 12s. The one time I steered one the width of my grin
                > > exceeded
                > > > > the beam of the boat.
                > > > >
                > > > > There's probably nothing to do any of this but wait it out. In the
                > > > > short term, Maine has so many empty moorings that an anchor almost
                > > isn't
                > > > > needed any more. In some ways, less crowded is probably better. But I
                > > > > just hate to see a gracious way of life eclipsed by preposterous boats
                > > > > sailed by armored gladiators.
                > > > >
                > > > > </rant>
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Steven Fein
                The reason for my question is that I have been having trouble with bagging on the lower part of the luff of the main. My sailmaker has DX it as a stretchy
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 23, 2013
                  The reason for my question is that I have been having trouble with bagging on the lower part of the luff of the main.
                  My sailmaker has DX it as a stretchy halyard. So I am looking to replace it with Stay Set x or given that there has been negative comment on Stay Set maybe go to VPC or Samsons XLS
                  SS
                • sailor11767
                  VPC is VERY nice material. Sta-Set-X is hard on the hands, but the old standby. If you assume 3/8, then it has a breaking strength of 5500lb, with 1.6%
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 23, 2013
                    VPC is VERY nice material.

                    Sta-Set-X is hard on the hands, but the "old standby." If you assume 3/8, then it has a breaking strength of 5500lb, with 1.6% stretch at 15% load (or 825lb). It also runs $1.21 at West.

                    VPC is very nice on the hands. 8mm (5/16) is slightly smaller size, has a breaking strength of 4000lb (yes, weaker line), with 0.5% stretch at 15% (or 600lb). If you do a straight line extrapolation of stretch, it is under 0.7% stretch at 825 lb (the SSX number above). It runs $1.15 at West.

                    Remember, halyards are sized for stretch, not strength. The VPC is 40% less stretch, cheaper, nicer feel, lighter, and runs freer (because it is 1/16 smaller). It's always easy to make a choice when one is better on all counts!

                    And you don't have to buy at West. This guy on eBay sells it for $0.99/ft. http://www.ebay.com/itm/8mm-VPC-per-10-ft-5-16-New-England-Ropes-White-VPC-/350445444616

                    Now, Samson XLS is something else. This web site:
                    http://www.wmjmarine.com/sam-455024005030.html
                    says it is around $1/ft, breaking strength of 4400lb, with stretch around 1.7%. To me, it is lower strength, much higher stretch, and cheaper. Could be a nice product (especially if it handles nicely), but I would be more inclined to use it for less critical lines, say main sheet, or boom preventer, or maybe even jib sheets. But it seems to lose for halyards.

                    Harry

                    --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Steven Fein <ssfein@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The reason for my question is that I have been having trouble with bagging on the lower part of the luff of the main.
                    > My sailmaker has DX it as a stretchy halyard. So I am looking to replace it with Stay Set x or given that there has been negative comment on Stay Set maybe go to VPC or Samsons XLS
                    > SS
                    >
                  • Allison Lehman
                    What size genoa are you using? Is it possible you are seeing the genoa backwinding the mainsail? Allison
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 23, 2013
                      What size genoa are you using?  Is it possible you are seeing the genoa backwinding the mainsail?

                      Allison








                      On Mar 23, 2013, at 8:34 AM, Steven Fein wrote:

                       

                      The reason for my question is that I have been having trouble with bagging on the lower part of the luff of the main.
                      My sailmaker has DX it as a stretchy halyard. So I am looking to replace it with Stay Set x or given that there has been negative comment on Stay Set maybe go to VPC or Samsons XLS
                      SS


                    • john kalinowski
                      go with the VCP the problem with Samson XLS is the fact it is a very soft (eg loosely woven line).It has a bad habit of the core coming out the side and making
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 24, 2013
                        go with the VCP

                        the problem with Samson XLS is the fact it is a very soft (eg loosely woven line).
                        It has a bad habit of the core coming out the side and making a mess.
                        It's cover is also very slippery which is a pain for rope clutches.

                        Been there, done that...

                        Dollar for dollar, the VPC is the best value short of die hard racing.

                        Regards

                        john

                        --- On Sat, 3/23/13, sailor11767 <sailor11767@...> wrote:

                        From: sailor11767 <sailor11767@...>
                        Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: America's Cup, Volvo Ocean Race, et al
                        To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, March 23, 2013, 12:12 PM

                         

                        VPC is VERY nice material.

                        Sta-Set-X is hard on the hands, but the "old standby." If you assume 3/8, then it has a breaking strength of 5500lb, with 1.6% stretch at 15% load (or 825lb). It also runs $1.21 at West.

                        VPC is very nice on the hands. 8mm (5/16) is slightly smaller size, has a breaking strength of 4000lb (yes, weaker line), with 0.5% stretch at 15% (or 600lb). If you do a straight line extrapolation of stretch, it is under 0.7% stretch at 825 lb (the SSX number above). It runs $1.15 at West.

                        Remember, halyards are sized for stretch, not strength. The VPC is 40% less stretch, cheaper, nicer feel, lighter, and runs freer (because it is 1/16 smaller). It's always easy to make a choice when one is better on all counts!

                        And you don't have to buy at West. This guy on eBay sells it for $0.99/ft. http://www.ebay.com/itm/8mm-VPC-per-10-ft-5-16-New-England-Ropes-White-VPC-/350445444616

                        Now, Samson XLS is something else. This web site:
                        http://www.wmjmarine.com/sam-455024005030.html
                        says it is around $1/ft, breaking strength of 4400lb, with stretch around 1.7%. To me, it is lower strength, much higher stretch, and cheaper. Could be a nice product (especially if it handles nicely), but I would be more inclined to use it for less critical lines, say main sheet, or boom preventer, or maybe even jib sheets. But it seems to lose for halyards.

                        Harry

                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Steven Fein <ssfein@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The reason for my question is that I have been having trouble with bagging on the lower part of the luff of the main.
                        > My sailmaker has DX it as a stretchy halyard. So I am looking to replace it with Stay Set x or given that there has been negative comment on Stay Set maybe go to VPC or Samsons XLS
                        > SS
                        >

                      • Steven Fein
                        Thanks for the input. Sabre specs 7/16 but 3/8 would be strong enough in VPC. I assume the rope clutches will work on 1/16 smaller line Yale ULS could be a
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 24, 2013
                          Thanks for the input.
                          Sabre specs 7/16 but 3/8 would be strong enough in VPC.
                          I assume the rope clutches will work on 1/16 smaller line
                          Yale ULS could be a contender--HM has 7/16 at .99. But I have had difficulty getting specs on it.
                          ss
                        • Peter Tollini
                          Steven - Unless your main has a short luff, using the halyard to tension the luff of the main is not very effective. If your main doesn t have a cunningham
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 24, 2013
                            Steven -
                            Unless your main has a short luff, using the halyard to tension the luff of the main is not very effective.  If your main doesn't have a cunningham eye, have your sailmaker add one. Small bucks.   Then rig a piece of slippery line, like Amsteel, from a deadeye on the mast about a foot below the boom, up through the C'ham eye and back down the other side to a 4:1 tackcle attached to the mast collar (Glen's OK with that).  That gives you an 8:1 pull to tension the main luff, from the bottom.
                            See diagrams on Harken's web site.
                            Tension the luff until you get a vertical wrinkle, the ease the C'ham until it just disappears.  Then consider upgrading your ourhaul.
                            Pete


                            On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Steven Fein <ssfein@...> wrote:
                             

                            Thanks for the input.
                            Sabre specs 7/16 but 3/8 would be strong enough in VPC.
                            I assume the rope clutches will work on 1/16 smaller line
                            Yale ULS could be a contender--HM has 7/16 at .99. But I have had difficulty getting specs on it.
                            ss


                          • sailor11767
                            Pete s comment about short luff is worth considering. My main had horrible shape. I was unable to tension the luff. I also had a foot of mast above the sail
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 24, 2013
                              Pete's comment about short luff is worth considering. My main had horrible shape. I was unable to tension the luff. I also had a foot of mast above the sail when hoisted. My boom also would hit the dodger.

                              Then my sailmaker said "your luff rope has shrunk." I think he probably let out at least 6 inches. What a difference! He probably let out 3 inches on the foot, too.

                              Harry

                              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Steven -
                              > Unless your main has a short luff, using the halyard to tension the luff of
                              > the main is not very effective. If your main doesn't have a cunningham
                              > eye, have your sailmaker add one. Small bucks. Then rig a piece of
                              > slippery line, like Amsteel, from a deadeye on the mast about a foot below
                              > the boom, up through the C'ham eye and back down the other side to a 4:1
                              > tackcle attached to the mast collar (Glen's OK with that). That gives you
                              > an 8:1 pull to tension the main luff, from the bottom.
                              > See diagrams on Harken's web site.
                              > Tension the luff until you get a vertical wrinkle, the ease the C'ham until
                              > it just disappears. Then consider upgrading your ourhaul.
                              > Pete
                              >
                              >
                              > On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Steven Fein <ssfein@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > **
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for the input.
                              > > Sabre specs 7/16 but 3/8 would be strong enough in VPC.
                              > > I assume the rope clutches will work on 1/16 smaller line
                              > > Yale ULS could be a contender--HM has 7/16 at .99. But I have had
                              > > difficulty getting specs on it.
                              > > ss
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • john kalinowski
                              usually the sail maker cuts the luff at the foot. where it is stitched through the covering.The rope slides up through the outer cover and makes the sail look
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 24, 2013
                                usually the sail maker cuts the luff at the foot. where it is stitched through the covering.
                                The rope slides up through the outer cover and makes the sail look good again.
                                Not exactly rocket science, but man it sure works....

                                --- On Sun, 3/24/13, sailor11767 <sailor11767@...> wrote:

                                From: sailor11767 <sailor11767@...>
                                Subject: [SabreSailboat] Main Halyard (was A/C stuff!)
                                To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, March 24, 2013, 9:33 PM

                                 

                                Pete's comment about short luff is worth considering. My main had horrible shape. I was unable to tension the luff. I also had a foot of mast above the sail when hoisted. My boom also would hit the dodger.

                                Then my sailmaker said "your luff rope has shrunk." I think he probably let out at least 6 inches. What a difference! He probably let out 3 inches on the foot, too.

                                Harry

                                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Steven -
                                > Unless your main has a short luff, using the halyard to tension the luff of
                                > the main is not very effective. If your main doesn't have a cunningham
                                > eye, have your sailmaker add one. Small bucks. Then rig a piece of
                                > slippery line, like Amsteel, from a deadeye on the mast about a foot below
                                > the boom, up through the C'ham eye and back down the other side to a 4:1
                                > tackcle attached to the mast collar (Glen's OK with that). That gives you
                                > an 8:1 pull to tension the main luff, from the bottom.
                                > See diagrams on Harken's web site.
                                > Tension the luff until you get a vertical wrinkle, the ease the C'ham until
                                > it just disappears. Then consider upgrading your ourhaul.
                                > Pete
                                >
                                >
                                > On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Steven Fein <ssfein@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > **
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Thanks for the input.
                                > > Sabre specs 7/16 but 3/8 would be strong enough in VPC.
                                > > I assume the rope clutches will work on 1/16 smaller line
                                > > Yale ULS could be a contender--HM has 7/16 at .99. But I have had
                                > > difficulty getting specs on it.
                                > > ss
                                > >
                                > >
                                >

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