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Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: westerbeke injector removal

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  • john kalinowski
    Thanks folks the response from Hansen was maybe I should just leave them in there and give up.Glad we pay 20 times the going rate ($17 banjo washer) for such
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 18, 2013
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      Thanks folks

      the response from Hansen was maybe I should just leave them in there and give up.
      Glad we pay 20 times the going rate ($17 banjo washer) for such helpful insight.
      Well they did say I can use an adjustable wrench to twist them clockwise to help crack them loose.

      I will continue to add penetrating oil and twist/tap it.
      I will up the force later in the weekend if need be.

      I will also get some 190mm 8mm bolts to put into the holder holes. From beneath the collars i will use washers and a nut to put pressure upward while holding the bolt head with a 2nd wrench. Hopefully with a bit of heat to the cylinder head to expand it, some more oil and tapping will release the injector much like a steering wheel puller. 

      Got a trunk full of pry bars already in the back of the Jeep and a virgin heavy duty square shank screw driver ready to be customized.


      --- On Mon, 3/18/13, Jan <workshoe99@...> wrote:

      From: Jan <workshoe99@...>
      Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: westerbeke injector removal
      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, March 18, 2013, 9:42 PM

       

      I borrowed an "injector removal tool" which turned out to be a large screwdriver which had been heated and a 90 degree bend put in the squared shaft just at the blade/shaft intersection. Popped them right out on my W33. Can't remember if I used any PB Blaster or not.

      Jan S38 Mk I

      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "navip11" <navip11@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Tackled this last year.
      >
      > I was unable to find any tricks. Best to try and get leverage using engine block being careful not to damage other components. On the w-18 I ended up removing the injector lines and some other components to make it a bit easier. All in all it wasn't easy but you will get them out eventually. Also, on the way back in make sure to put the anti-seize stuff on the threads (not too much) if you ever need to get them out again.
      >
      > O, and even though the engines are self-bleeding, I found out that you need to bleed each injector line individually to prime the system before start up.
      >
      >
      > AJ
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I am in the middle of pulling my injectors for a rebuild.
      > >
      > > unbolted the hold down collars and tried to pull them out.
      > > after 30 years they did not budge.
      > > spent the weekend spraying penetrating oil and tapping them with a hammer.
      > > no dice.
      > > tried attaching a long bolt into the hole on top for the return rail and used a loose vice grip like a slide hammer to pull up to no avail.
      > >
      > > so anyone want to share the trick to get these things out?
      > >
      >

    • JOHN CALLIS
      John I have had injector replacement on my list of things to do, and was hoping to get to it this Spring. I was going to exchange them for rebuilt ones for
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 19, 2013
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        John

        I have had injector replacement on my list of things to do, and was hoping to get to it this Spring.  I was going to exchange them for rebuilt ones for Hansen/Westerbeke for rebuilt ones.  I have put it off in the past for two reasons, one is the cost and the second reason is the fact that my motor runs fine, and why should I mess with something that is not broken.

        Why are you changing your injectors?  I would be changing my for the simple fact that it has been a while.

        Thanks
        John
        S34 MKII Westerbeke 27A


        On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 1:24 AM, john kalinowski wrote:

           Thanks folks

        the response from Hansen was maybe I should just leave them in there and give up.
        Glad we pay 20 times the going rate ($17 banjo washer) for such helpful insight.
        Well they did say I can use an adjustable wrench to twist them clockwise to help crack them loose.


        I will continue to add penetrating oil and twist/tap it.
        I will up the force later in the weekend if need be.


        I will also get some 190mm 8mm bolts to put into the holder holes. From beneath the collars i will use washers and a nut to put pressure upward while holding the bolt head with a 2nd wrench. Hopefully with a bit of heat to the cylinder head to expand it, some more oil and tapping will release the injector much like a steering wheel puller. 


        Got a trunk full  of pry bars already in the back of the Jeep and a virgin heavy duty square shank screw driver ready to be customized.



        --- On Mon, 3/18/13, Jan <workshoe99@...> wrote:

        From: Jan <workshoe99@...>
        Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: westerbeke injector removal
        To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, March 18, 2013, 9:42 PM

         
        I borrowed an "injector removal tool" which turned out to be a large screwdriver which had been heated and a 90 degree bend put in the squared shaft just at the blade/shaft intersection. Popped them right out on my W33. Can't remember if I used any PB Blaster or not.

        Jan S38 Mk I

        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "navip11" <navip11@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Tackled this last year.
        >
        > I was unable to find any tricks. Best to try and get leverage using engine block being careful not to damage other components. On the w-18 I ended up removing the injector lines and some other components to make it a bit easier. All in all it wasn't easy but you will get them out eventually. Also, on the way back in make sure to put the anti-seize stuff on the threads (not too much) if you ever need to get them out again.
        >
        > O, and even though the engines are self-bleeding, I found out that you need to bleed each injector line individually to prime the system before start up.
        >
        >
        > AJ
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I am in the middle of pulling my injectors for a rebuild.
        > >
        > > unbolted the hold down collars and tried to pull them out.
        > > after 30 years they did not budge.
        > > spent the weekend spraying penetrating oil and tapping them with a hammer.
        > > no dice.
        > > tried attaching a long bolt into the hole on top for the return rail and used a loose vice grip like a slide hammer to pull up to no avail.
        > >
        > > so anyone want to share the trick to get these things out?
        > >
        >

      • sabre32sailor
        29 years and 1500 hours on the motor Got a slight vibration But the real reason is next year I am taking the boat from Boston to Norfolk on her own bottom and
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 19, 2013
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          29 years and 1500 hours on the motor
          Got a slight vibration

          But the real reason is  next year I am taking the boat from Boston to Norfolk on her own bottom and want that motor like new.

          This also allows me to really clean that engine.

          I look at it as cheap insurance
          $350 for Injectors being rebuilt
          $110 to rebuild the alternator
          $100 to rebuild the water pump
          $500 for a new clutch

          10% the price of a new motor, never mind installation
          And the peace of mind is priceless





          -- Sent from my HP TouchPad

          On Mar 19, 2013 12:11 PM, JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...> wrote:
           

          John

          I have had injector replacement on my list of things to do, and was hoping to get to it this Spring.  I was going to exchange them for rebuilt ones for Hansen/Westerbeke for rebuilt ones.  I have put it off in the past for two reasons, one is the cost and the second reason is the fact that my motor runs fine, and why should I mess with something that is not broken.

          Why are you changing your injectors?  I would be changing my for the simple fact that it has been a while.

          Thanks
          John
          S34 MKII Westerbeke 27A


          On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 1:24 AM, john kalinowski wrote:

             Thanks folks

          the response from Hansen was maybe I should just leave them in there and give up.
          Glad we pay 20 times the going rate ($17 banjo washer) for such helpful insight.
          Well they did say I can use an adjustable wrench to twist them clockwise to help crack them loose.


          I will continue to add penetrating oil and twist/tap it.
          I will up the force later in the weekend if need be.


          I will also get some 190mm 8mm bolts to put into the holder holes. From beneath the collars i will use washers and a nut to put pressure upward while holding the bolt head with a 2nd wrench. Hopefully with a bit of heat to the cylinder head to expand it, some more oil and tapping will release the injector much like a steering wheel puller. 


          Got a trunk full  of pry bars already in the back of the Jeep and a virgin heavy duty square shank screw driver ready to be customized.



          --- On Mon, 3/18/13, Jan <workshoe99@...> wrote:

          From: Jan <workshoe99@...>
          Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: westerbeke injector removal
          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, March 18, 2013, 9:42 PM

           
          I borrowed an "injector removal tool" which turned out to be a large screwdriver which had been heated and a 90 degree bend put in the squared shaft just at the blade/shaft intersection. Popped them right out on my W33. Can't remember if I used any PB Blaster or not.

          Jan S38 Mk I

          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "navip11" <navip11@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Tackled this last year.
          >
          > I was unable to find any tricks. Best to try and get leverage using engine block being careful not to damage other components. On the w-18 I ended up removing the injector lines and some other components to make it a bit easier. All in all it wasn't easy but you will get them out eventually. Also, on the way back in make sure to put the anti-seize stuff on the threads (not too much) if you ever need to get them out again.
          >
          > O, and even though the engines are self-bleeding, I found out that you need to bleed each injector line individually to prime the system before start up.
          >
          >
          > AJ
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I am in the middle of pulling my injectors for a rebuild.
          > >
          > > unbolted the hold down collars and tried to pull them out.
          > > after 30 years they did not budge.
          > > spent the weekend spraying penetrating oil and tapping them with a hammer.
          > > no dice.
          > > tried attaching a long bolt into the hole on top for the return rail and used a loose vice grip like a slide hammer to pull up to no avail.
          > >
          > > so anyone want to share the trick to get these things out?
          > >
          >

        • Charles Sidwa
          $500 for a new clutch What clutch??? Charlie ... From: sabre32sailor@yahoo.com To:
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 19, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            
            $500 for a new clutch
            What clutch???
             
            Charlie
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 7:50 PM
            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: westerbeke injector removal

             

            29 years and 1500 hours on the motor
            Got a slight vibration

            But the real reason is  next year I am taking the boat from Boston to Norfolk on her own bottom and want that motor like new.

            This also allows me to really clean that engine.

            I look at it as cheap insurance
            $350 for Injectors being rebuilt
            $110 to rebuild the alternator
            $100 to rebuild the water pump
            $500 for a new clutch

            10% the price of a new motor, never mind installation
            And the peace of mind is priceless





            -- Sent from my HP TouchPad

            On Mar 19, 2013 12:11 PM, JOHN CALLIS <jsts@...> wrote:
             

            John

            I have had injector replacement on my list of things to do, and was hoping to get to it this Spring.  I was going to exchange them for rebuilt ones for Hansen/Westerbeke for rebuilt ones.  I have put it off in the past for two reasons, one is the cost and the second reason is the fact that my motor runs fine, and why should I mess with something that is not broken.

            Why are you changing your injectors?  I would be changing my for the simple fact that it has been a while.

            Thanks
            John
            S34 MKII Westerbeke 27A


            On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 1:24 AM, john kalinowski wrote:

               Thanks folks

            the response from Hansen was maybe I should just leave them in there and give up.
            Glad we pay 20 times the going rate ($17 banjo washer) for such helpful insight.
            Well they did say I can use an adjustable wrench to twist them clockwise to help crack them loose.


            I will continue to add penetrating oil and twist/tap it.
            I will up the force later in the weekend if need be.


            I will also get some 190mm 8mm bolts to put into the holder holes. From beneath the collars i will use washers and a nut to put pressure upward while holding the bolt head with a 2nd wrench. Hopefully with a bit of heat to the cylinder head to expand it, some more oil and tapping will release the injector much like a steering wheel puller. 


            Got a trunk full  of pry bars already in the back of the Jeep and a virgin heavy duty square shank screw driver ready to be customized.



            --- On Mon, 3/18/13, Jan <workshoe99@...> wrote:

            From: Jan <workshoe99@...>
            Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: westerbeke injector removal
            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, March 18, 2013, 9:42 PM

             
            I borrowed an "injector removal tool" which turned out to be a large screwdriver which had been heated and a 90 degree bend put in the squared shaft just at the blade/shaft intersection. Popped them right out on my W33. Can't remember if I used any PB Blaster or not.

            Jan S38 Mk I

            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "navip11" <navip11@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Tackled this last year.
            >
            > I was unable to find any tricks. Best to try and get leverage using engine block being careful not to damage other components. On the w-18 I ended up removing the injector lines and some other components to make it a bit easier. All in all it wasn't easy but you will get them out eventually. Also, on the way back in make sure to put the anti-seize stuff on the threads (not too much) if you ever need to get them out again.
            >
            > O, and even though the engines are self-bleeding, I found out that you need to bleed each injector line individually to prime the system before start up.
            >
            >
            > AJ
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I am in the middle of pulling my injectors for a rebuild.
            > >
            > > unbolted the hold down collars and tried to pull them out.
            > > after 30 years they did not budge.
            > > spent the weekend spraying penetrating oil and tapping them with a hammer.
            > > no dice.
            > > tried attaching a long bolt into the hole on top for the return rail and used a loose vice grip like a slide hammer to pull up to no avail.
            > >
            > > so anyone want to share the trick to get these things out?
            > >
            >

          • Carter Brey
            Charlie, don t you downshift into first when approaching the dock? $500 for a new clutch What clutch??? Charlie
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 20, 2013
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              Charlie, don't you downshift into first when approaching the dock?

              $500 for a new clutch What clutch???

              Charlie

            • Charles Sidwa
              And while downshifting I do try to double clutch as my syncros are gone. Charlie Sent from my iPad
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 20, 2013
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                And while downshifting I do try to double clutch as my syncros are gone.

                Charlie

                Sent from my iPad

                On Mar 20, 2013, at 7:06 AM, "Carter Brey" <carter.brey@...> wrote:

                 

                Charlie, don't you downshift into first when approaching the dock?

                $500 for a new clutch What clutch???

                Charlie

              • john kalinowski
                Sorry, after shoveling 18 of snow, I was not thinking properly last night and used the incorrect terminology. Anyways, the damper is clutch.Take a look at one
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 20, 2013
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                  Sorry, after shoveling 18" of snow, I was not thinking properly last night and used the incorrect terminology.

                  Anyways, the damper is clutch.
                  Take a look at one up close and tell me what you think it looks like.
                  Without it, you could could not go from forward to reverse smoothly.
                  They do wear out.
                  when it happens, you go nowhere regardless of how good your engine , transmission and prop are functioning.

                  The price for the Hurth unit has skyrocketed from $170 a couple years ago to $448.
                  Part number 19398

                  john

                  --- On Wed, 3/20/13, Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...> wrote:

                  From: Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: westerbeke injector removal
                  To: "Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com" <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013, 7:19 AM

                   

                  And while downshifting I do try to double clutch as my syncros are gone.

                  Charlie

                  Sent from my iPad

                  On Mar 20, 2013, at 7:06 AM, "Carter Brey" <carter.brey@...> wrote:

                   

                  Charlie, don't you downshift into first when approaching the dock?

                  $500 for a new clutch What clutch???

                  Charlie

                • rabrown10
                  In 2008 I was motoring sailing, or so I thought, out of Government Cut (very busy inlet in Miami). It was blowing and didn t realize I had a problem until I
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 21, 2013
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                    In 2008 I was motoring sailing, or so I thought, out of Government Cut (very busy inlet in Miami). It was blowing and didn't realize I had a problem until I was out in the ocean heading to Ft Lauderdale. I put the tranmission in reverse to stop the prop from rotating while sailing but it kept spinning - destroyed damper plate.

                    A few points:
                    1)There were some less expensive DPs with the same dimensional specs online. Diameter, number of screw holes, number of spline teeth.

                    2) During the repair I saw telltale metal filings in the sump under the engine flywheel. Prior to the failure I had intermittent significant vibration (thought it was all the prop). It did try to warn me.

                    3) Possible cause was vibration from my Max Prop which I should have addressed sooner. When some vibration continued after the DP repair I installed the original fixed prop. Very smooth. I sent in the Max Prop in for reconditioning but I'm sticking with the fixed since we are cruisers.

                    It took me about 30 hrs. to change the plate on my 402. Did not have to remove the engine or galley.

                    Roger






                    --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Sorry, after shoveling 18" of snow, I was not thinking properly last night and used the incorrect terminology.
                    > Anyways, the damper is clutch.Take a look at one up close and tell me what you think it looks like.Without it, you could could not go from forward to reverse smoothly.They do wear out.when it happens, you go nowhere regardless of how good your engine , transmission and prop are functioning.
                    > The price for the Hurth unit has skyrocketed from $170 a couple years ago to $448.Part number 19398
                    > john
                    >
                    > --- On Wed, 3/20/13, Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: westerbeke injector removal
                    > To: "Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com" <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013, 7:19 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > And while downshifting I do try to double clutch as my syncros are gone.
                    > Charlie
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPad
                    > On Mar 20, 2013, at 7:06 AM, "Carter Brey" <carter.brey@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >  
                    >
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                    >
                    > Charlie, don't you downshift into first when approaching the dock?
                    > $500 for a new clutch What clutch???
                    > Charlie
                    >
                  • sabre32sailor
                    I got all the injectors out after 10 hours yesterday. What a pain in the kister. If you can get some yard guy to do it for $200, it is money well spent.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 24, 2013
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                      I got all the injectors out after 10 hours yesterday.
                      What a pain in the kister.
                      If you can get some yard guy to do it for $200, it is money well spent.

                      Anyhow, here is the method that proved successful.

                      Us Sabre owners are at a disadvantage in that the engine compartment does not allow the use of a slide hammer. And most of us have engines installed during the Reagan administration.

                      My back two injectors were never touched for 30 years. Still had paint on them The #1 injector was rusted in to the point that the collar on top was seized to the injector. Considering how sloppy that fit is, you understand how corroded that is.

                      Mantra during all of this:
                      Slow, time, heat and penetrant are your friends. USE THEM!

                      Tools:
                      Metric wrench set
                      Hammer
                      Penetrant (Seafoam deep creep or PB blaster) with one of those little red plastic straws that allow you to pinpoint where the stuff is going.
                      Large screwdrivers
                      12" adjustable wrench
                      2 rolls of paper towels
                      Acetone (to degrease the outside prior to painting).
                      Can of red spray paint.
                      several wire brushes of different shapes.
                      several 8mm bolts (1 per injector), fine thread. 10 mm length is fine.


                      Shut down the fuel supply.

                      Put several oil absorb mats in the bilge under the motor and on the outside of the starboard stringer

                      If you have your antifreeze tank located above the engine, you may wish to unbolt it from its mount and relocate to the other side of cylinder head to give yourself some room.

                      Remove the air box.

                      Remove the intake manifold.

                      Remove the electric fuel pump.

                      Remove the fuel filter assembly.

                      Remove the return lines from all the injector. Be care not to lose the banjo washers on both sides of the banjo fittings. Take the 8mm fine thread bolts you bought and insert them into each injector return lines so debits cannot fall in

                      Remove the fuel lines
                      Be careful and use 2 wrenches so you do not twist the lines.
                      The bottom connections can be a real pain because there is not a lot of room for the bottom wrench, especially the middle lines. I cut the ends off a glove and put the fingers over the injector pump holes so no crud gets into them.

                      You may get a drip out of the line going into high pressure fuel pump. Likely coming from the return line connection. May have to disconnect and plug the return line to stop this annoying drip.

                      Remove the glow plug wiring and set aside.

                      Wire brush the cylinder head to get all the dirt, rust and peeled paint off. Be sure it is not on top of the head. Use some acetone and a paper towel to wipe down.

                      Remove the injector hold down bolts. there are 2 8mmx35mm course thread bolts per injector.

                      Pull the injector straight out. If it happens, go buy a lottery ticket, for it is your lucky day.
                      But first oil the injector and reinsert it to keep crud from getting in the cylinder until you have all of them removed. Are you still lucky on the other injectors? More likely the other injectors are in there tight.

                      Now we get into how to remove those stuck injectors.
                      We will work from Mr. Nice Guy to going Medieval on them.

                      First you can pry up with a large screw driver. Issue is space to do this and the fact you can jam them in their holes if they get out of column.

                      I tried putting washers and a nut on 2 course 180mm 8mm course bolts to try and lever the inject off using the collar. It was a real pia to work the nuts in the tight confines, so I gave up before I broke the collar.

                      Next you can spray some penetrant at the injector/cylinder head.
                      Tap (not slam) the bolts sitting in the injector return lines to help it get into the crevices. Let it sit for a couple minutes.

                      Using the adjustable wrench try to turn the injectors CLOCKWISE to break them loose. If you get 2 degrees twist, stop, add more pentrant and repeat as it will quickly loosen up and then you can just pull it out.

                      OK, the injector has laughed at 4-5 applications of penetrant and twisting. Time to add heat to the routine which is major difference.
                      This may take several applications.

                      A propane torch is needed to heat the joint. Maybe you can get the head to expand enough to get some penetrant in there to do the job. More likely you have much of rust and carbon that have sized the injector to the head.

                      A word about torches:
                      - Be sure there is nothing around that can burn.
                      - Be care where you point it.
                      - Keep the flame as small as possible.
                      - Have a fire extinguisher right next you at all times.
                      - Aim the flame down at the metal and not allow it to skip across where it can catch something else on fire.
                      - Have a clean flat area to set it.
                      - Light corrosion can be dealt with a lightweight Benzomatic torch you get at any hardware store for $20. For nasty cases, you need one of the more heavy duty units. The best I have seen is a Benomatic with a 3 foot hose. This allows you to keep the tank upright while you maneuver the head any way you desire which keeps the torch from sputtering and is much safer. If you do not own one, ask one of your buddies.

                      Here is the one I borrowed. A BERNZOMATIC BZ8250HT
                      http://www.amazon.com/Bernzomatic-BZ8250HT-Trigger-Start-Hose-Torch/dp/B001OLVPOY

                      It puts out 4-5 times the heat, so it gets the job done MUCH better.
                      It also has an igniter and gas flow switch in the handle so on/off is easy.

                      So we have our torch and ready to attack our injectors.

                      Get some heat and work that into the cylinder head around the injector. I tried doing this on a 34 degree morning to cause real temp differences to try separate the two metals, but the density of that head just sucks up the heat of a consumer torch. You are basically trying to heat the joint to the point that the crud between the injector and head starts to give up a bit so you can get some penetrant in there to dissolve the rest of crude.

                      I heat the intake manifold side to get the heat deep into the cylinder, then heat behind it on both sides. You removed the glow plug wiring so you do not burn it up as it is too close otherwise. You may burn some paint on the engine. Just stop off a second, blow out the flame and get going again.

                      When the metal starts to smell hot and had wisps of smoke, take some of the penetrant and spray it at the joint . The stuff will go from liquid and then violently bubble at the joint for a second or two. You will notice the color has changed from clear to red or black as it runs down the side of the head. That is crud boiling out of the joint and will drip down the side into the bilge where those oil absorb pads will suck it up.
                      You may even see particles in the fluid. Take the wrench and give that injector a strong twist. Nothing? Spray the injector with some more fluid and see what else bubbles out. Sooner or later, the metal is too cool to boil the fluid. Wipe off all the crud around the injector with a paper towel, and start another heat cycle. After 20 minutes or so, let it sit to cool off. Hit the joint with a wire brush and some more penetrant. Then start another heat cycle.

                      Now you may have noticed my choice of penetrants. It is for a couple reasons:
                      They are both pretty good.
                      Both have very high flash points, so they do not catch fire when the torch flame hits some on the next cycle. Again, we have to minimize the chance of fire.
                      I would give the edge to the PB Blaster for effectiveness, but not by much.
                      And by the way, both only started making high flash point penetrants 2 years or so ago.
                      If you are using an older can of either, check the label.
                      Do not use Liquid Wrench or Cold Freeze as they explicitly say their stuff is volatile and keep it away from flames.

                      After an hour or so. Get off your knees and take a break.
                      Good for you and the injectors.

                      Sooner or later, the injector will twist 2 degrees. Spray on more penetrant, and twist it back and forth with the wrench. May need another heat cycle but you are close to the end. Keep adding penetrant until you can turn it all the way around. Let it cool and then pop the recalcitrant injector out. Oil, put it back in the hole and move onto the next one.

                      My rusted out injector looked like new sans the red paint by the time I got it out.

                      If your injectors still have lots of paint and not too corroded, you should be able to pull each in about 15 minutes.
                      If heavily corroded, they could take a couple hours. Each.
                      If you have low power torch, it could be hours and hours if ever, so do not play with the small pencil type torches. I also did not see a difference between propane and MAP gas.

                      Once they are all out, be sure you also have removed the injector gaskets. They are copper crush washers.
                      They likely would be on the injector, but if not, they are still in the hole.

                      Clean up the head area with acetone and a paper towel. With everything out of the way, it is a great time to remove the glow plugs to clean the contacts and put antisieze on the threads. These come out easily, but take a while because there are lots of threads and limited room to work the wrench.

                      Remove the oil absorb pods in the bilge.
                      They have sucked up all the penetrant, along with all the dirt, and paint flakes that have fallen on them.

                      Remove the old injectors, remove that 8mm bolt in the return line and bag them for shipment to be rebuilt.

                      When you get the new injectors installed, be sure to anti-seize them.
                      When all assembled and a successful test fire the motor with no leaks, be sure to rattle can a new coat of paint.
                      I suggest Toro red spray paint from any power supply company, as it is the same stuff at 20% of the costs (well the paper label says Toro instead of Westerbeke).

                      Take your time, use lots of penetrant, use heat and most importantly use your head.
                      Just a matter of time before they understand you are going to succeed and give up.


                      Good Luck


                      john
                    • Joe
                      John nice write up! If I understand correctly you are sending them out to be rebuilt, it would be instructive to hear just how good or bad the injectors
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 24, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        John

                        nice write up! If I understand correctly you are sending them out to be rebuilt, it would be instructive to hear just "how good or bad" the injectors are, can you get some feedback from your re-builder? I am planning to pull mine in a week or two and take them to a local guy to be tested. $8 per injector to test, I will share the results.

                        joe

                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > I got all the injectors out after 10 hours yesterday.
                        > What a pain in the kister.
                        > If you can get some yard guy to do it for $200, it is money well spent.
                        >
                        > Anyhow, here is the method that proved successful.
                        >
                        > Us Sabre owners are at a disadvantage in that the engine compartment does not allow the use of a slide hammer. And most of us have engines installed during the Reagan administration.
                        >
                        > My back two injectors were never touched for 30 years. Still had paint on them The #1 injector was rusted in to the point that the collar on top was seized to the injector. Considering how sloppy that fit is, you understand how corroded that is.
                        >
                        > Mantra during all of this:
                        > Slow, time, heat and penetrant are your friends. USE THEM!
                        >
                        > Tools:
                        > Metric wrench set
                        > Hammer
                        > Penetrant (Seafoam deep creep or PB blaster) with one of those little red plastic straws that allow you to pinpoint where the stuff is going.
                        > Large screwdrivers
                        > 12" adjustable wrench
                        > 2 rolls of paper towels
                        > Acetone (to degrease the outside prior to painting).
                        > Can of red spray paint.
                        > several wire brushes of different shapes.
                        > several 8mm bolts (1 per injector), fine thread. 10 mm length is fine.
                        >
                        >
                        > Shut down the fuel supply.
                        >
                        > Put several oil absorb mats in the bilge under the motor and on the outside of the starboard stringer
                        >
                        > If you have your antifreeze tank located above the engine, you may wish to unbolt it from its mount and relocate to the other side of cylinder head to give yourself some room.
                        >
                        > Remove the air box.
                        >
                        > Remove the intake manifold.
                        >
                        > Remove the electric fuel pump.
                        >
                        > Remove the fuel filter assembly.
                        >
                        > Remove the return lines from all the injector. Be care not to lose the banjo washers on both sides of the banjo fittings. Take the 8mm fine thread bolts you bought and insert them into each injector return lines so debits cannot fall in
                        >
                        > Remove the fuel lines
                        > Be careful and use 2 wrenches so you do not twist the lines.
                        > The bottom connections can be a real pain because there is not a lot of room for the bottom wrench, especially the middle lines. I cut the ends off a glove and put the fingers over the injector pump holes so no crud gets into them.
                        >
                        > You may get a drip out of the line going into high pressure fuel pump. Likely coming from the return line connection. May have to disconnect and plug the return line to stop this annoying drip.
                        >
                        > Remove the glow plug wiring and set aside.
                        >
                        > Wire brush the cylinder head to get all the dirt, rust and peeled paint off. Be sure it is not on top of the head. Use some acetone and a paper towel to wipe down.
                        >
                        > Remove the injector hold down bolts. there are 2 8mmx35mm course thread bolts per injector.
                        >
                        > Pull the injector straight out. If it happens, go buy a lottery ticket, for it is your lucky day.
                        > But first oil the injector and reinsert it to keep crud from getting in the cylinder until you have all of them removed. Are you still lucky on the other injectors? More likely the other injectors are in there tight.
                        >
                        > Now we get into how to remove those stuck injectors.
                        > We will work from Mr. Nice Guy to going Medieval on them.
                        >
                        > First you can pry up with a large screw driver. Issue is space to do this and the fact you can jam them in their holes if they get out of column.
                        >
                        > I tried putting washers and a nut on 2 course 180mm 8mm course bolts to try and lever the inject off using the collar. It was a real pia to work the nuts in the tight confines, so I gave up before I broke the collar.
                        >
                        > Next you can spray some penetrant at the injector/cylinder head.
                        > Tap (not slam) the bolts sitting in the injector return lines to help it get into the crevices. Let it sit for a couple minutes.
                        >
                        > Using the adjustable wrench try to turn the injectors CLOCKWISE to break them loose. If you get 2 degrees twist, stop, add more pentrant and repeat as it will quickly loosen up and then you can just pull it out.
                        >
                        > OK, the injector has laughed at 4-5 applications of penetrant and twisting. Time to add heat to the routine which is major difference.
                        > This may take several applications.
                        >
                        > A propane torch is needed to heat the joint. Maybe you can get the head to expand enough to get some penetrant in there to do the job. More likely you have much of rust and carbon that have sized the injector to the head.
                        >
                        > A word about torches:
                        > - Be sure there is nothing around that can burn.
                        > - Be care where you point it.
                        > - Keep the flame as small as possible.
                        > - Have a fire extinguisher right next you at all times.
                        > - Aim the flame down at the metal and not allow it to skip across where it can catch something else on fire.
                        > - Have a clean flat area to set it.
                        > - Light corrosion can be dealt with a lightweight Benzomatic torch you get at any hardware store for $20. For nasty cases, you need one of the more heavy duty units. The best I have seen is a Benomatic with a 3 foot hose. This allows you to keep the tank upright while you maneuver the head any way you desire which keeps the torch from sputtering and is much safer. If you do not own one, ask one of your buddies.
                        >
                        > Here is the one I borrowed. A BERNZOMATIC BZ8250HT
                        > http://www.amazon.com/Bernzomatic-BZ8250HT-Trigger-Start-Hose-Torch/dp/B001OLVPOY
                        >
                        > It puts out 4-5 times the heat, so it gets the job done MUCH better.
                        > It also has an igniter and gas flow switch in the handle so on/off is easy.
                        >
                        > So we have our torch and ready to attack our injectors.
                        >
                        > Get some heat and work that into the cylinder head around the injector. I tried doing this on a 34 degree morning to cause real temp differences to try separate the two metals, but the density of that head just sucks up the heat of a consumer torch. You are basically trying to heat the joint to the point that the crud between the injector and head starts to give up a bit so you can get some penetrant in there to dissolve the rest of crude.
                        >
                        > I heat the intake manifold side to get the heat deep into the cylinder, then heat behind it on both sides. You removed the glow plug wiring so you do not burn it up as it is too close otherwise. You may burn some paint on the engine. Just stop off a second, blow out the flame and get going again.
                        >
                        > When the metal starts to smell hot and had wisps of smoke, take some of the penetrant and spray it at the joint . The stuff will go from liquid and then violently bubble at the joint for a second or two. You will notice the color has changed from clear to red or black as it runs down the side of the head. That is crud boiling out of the joint and will drip down the side into the bilge where those oil absorb pads will suck it up.
                        > You may even see particles in the fluid. Take the wrench and give that injector a strong twist. Nothing? Spray the injector with some more fluid and see what else bubbles out. Sooner or later, the metal is too cool to boil the fluid. Wipe off all the crud around the injector with a paper towel, and start another heat cycle. After 20 minutes or so, let it sit to cool off. Hit the joint with a wire brush and some more penetrant. Then start another heat cycle.
                        >
                        > Now you may have noticed my choice of penetrants. It is for a couple reasons:
                        > They are both pretty good.
                        > Both have very high flash points, so they do not catch fire when the torch flame hits some on the next cycle. Again, we have to minimize the chance of fire.
                        > I would give the edge to the PB Blaster for effectiveness, but not by much.
                        > And by the way, both only started making high flash point penetrants 2 years or so ago.
                        > If you are using an older can of either, check the label.
                        > Do not use Liquid Wrench or Cold Freeze as they explicitly say their stuff is volatile and keep it away from flames.
                        >
                        > After an hour or so. Get off your knees and take a break.
                        > Good for you and the injectors.
                        >
                        > Sooner or later, the injector will twist 2 degrees. Spray on more penetrant, and twist it back and forth with the wrench. May need another heat cycle but you are close to the end. Keep adding penetrant until you can turn it all the way around. Let it cool and then pop the recalcitrant injector out. Oil, put it back in the hole and move onto the next one.
                        >
                        > My rusted out injector looked like new sans the red paint by the time I got it out.
                        >
                        > If your injectors still have lots of paint and not too corroded, you should be able to pull each in about 15 minutes.
                        > If heavily corroded, they could take a couple hours. Each.
                        > If you have low power torch, it could be hours and hours if ever, so do not play with the small pencil type torches. I also did not see a difference between propane and MAP gas.
                        >
                        > Once they are all out, be sure you also have removed the injector gaskets. They are copper crush washers.
                        > They likely would be on the injector, but if not, they are still in the hole.
                        >
                        > Clean up the head area with acetone and a paper towel. With everything out of the way, it is a great time to remove the glow plugs to clean the contacts and put antisieze on the threads. These come out easily, but take a while because there are lots of threads and limited room to work the wrench.
                        >
                        > Remove the oil absorb pods in the bilge.
                        > They have sucked up all the penetrant, along with all the dirt, and paint flakes that have fallen on them.
                        >
                        > Remove the old injectors, remove that 8mm bolt in the return line and bag them for shipment to be rebuilt.
                        >
                        > When you get the new injectors installed, be sure to anti-seize them.
                        > When all assembled and a successful test fire the motor with no leaks, be sure to rattle can a new coat of paint.
                        > I suggest Toro red spray paint from any power supply company, as it is the same stuff at 20% of the costs (well the paper label says Toro instead of Westerbeke).
                        >
                        > Take your time, use lots of penetrant, use heat and most importantly use your head.
                        > Just a matter of time before they understand you are going to succeed and give up.
                        >
                        >
                        > Good Luck
                        >
                        >
                        > john
                        >
                      • john kalinowski
                        Joe I do not expect anything bad in the injectors.The bottoms were very clean with with only a light coat of soot.Ditto the glow plugs.  so the combustion
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 24, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Joe

                          I do not expect anything bad in the injectors.
                          The bottoms were very clean with with only a light coat of soot.
                          Ditto the glow plugs.  so the combustion chambers are clean.

                          I add Diesel Stop  creatine booster/injector cleaner with every refueling.
                          I think that is keeping the motor internals looking good.

                          I am prepping for a voyage next year, so with 30 years on the motor, it was time to pull them. Else I would have left them alone as they only have 1500 hours.

                          john

                          --- On Sun, 3/24/13, Joe <cbr_deuce@...> wrote:

                          From: Joe <cbr_deuce@...>
                          Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: westerbeke injector removal
                          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, March 24, 2013, 10:54 AM

                           

                          John

                          nice write up! If I understand correctly you are sending them out to be rebuilt, it would be instructive to hear just "how good or bad" the injectors are, can you get some feedback from your re-builder? I am planning to pull mine in a week or two and take them to a local guy to be tested. $8 per injector to test, I will share the results.

                          joe

                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > I got all the injectors out after 10 hours yesterday.
                          > What a pain in the kister.
                          > If you can get some yard guy to do it for $200, it is money well spent.
                          >
                          > Anyhow, here is the method that proved successful.
                          >
                          > Us Sabre owners are at a disadvantage in that the engine compartment does not allow the use of a slide hammer. And most of us have engines installed during the Reagan administration.
                          >
                          > My back two injectors were never touched for 30 years. Still had paint on them The #1 injector was rusted in to the point that the collar on top was seized to the injector. Considering how sloppy that fit is, you understand how corroded that is.
                          >
                          > Mantra during all of this:
                          > Slow, time, heat and penetrant are your friends. USE THEM!
                          >
                          > Tools:
                          > Metric wrench set
                          > Hammer
                          > Penetrant (Seafoam deep creep or PB blaster) with one of those little red plastic straws that allow you to pinpoint where the stuff is going.
                          > Large screwdrivers
                          > 12" adjustable wrench
                          > 2 rolls of paper towels
                          > Acetone (to degrease the outside prior to painting).
                          > Can of red spray paint.
                          > several wire brushes of different shapes.
                          > several 8mm bolts (1 per injector), fine thread. 10 mm length is fine.
                          >
                          >
                          > Shut down the fuel supply.
                          >
                          > Put several oil absorb mats in the bilge under the motor and on the outside of the starboard stringer
                          >
                          > If you have your antifreeze tank located above the engine, you may wish to unbolt it from its mount and relocate to the other side of cylinder head to give yourself some room.
                          >
                          > Remove the air box.
                          >
                          > Remove the intake manifold.
                          >
                          > Remove the electric fuel pump.
                          >
                          > Remove the fuel filter assembly.
                          >
                          > Remove the return lines from all the injector. Be care not to lose the banjo washers on both sides of the banjo fittings. Take the 8mm fine thread bolts you bought and insert them into each injector return lines so debits cannot fall in
                          >
                          > Remove the fuel lines
                          > Be careful and use 2 wrenches so you do not twist the lines.
                          > The bottom connections can be a real pain because there is not a lot of room for the bottom wrench, especially the middle lines. I cut the ends off a glove and put the fingers over the injector pump holes so no crud gets into them.
                          >
                          > You may get a drip out of the line going into high pressure fuel pump. Likely coming from the return line connection. May have to disconnect and plug the return line to stop this annoying drip.
                          >
                          > Remove the glow plug wiring and set aside.
                          >
                          > Wire brush the cylinder head to get all the dirt, rust and peeled paint off. Be sure it is not on top of the head. Use some acetone and a paper towel to wipe down.
                          >
                          > Remove the injector hold down bolts. there are 2 8mmx35mm course thread bolts per injector.
                          >
                          > Pull the injector straight out. If it happens, go buy a lottery ticket, for it is your lucky day.
                          > But first oil the injector and reinsert it to keep crud from getting in the cylinder until you have all of them removed. Are you still lucky on the other injectors? More likely the other injectors are in there tight.
                          >
                          > Now we get into how to remove those stuck injectors.
                          > We will work from Mr. Nice Guy to going Medieval on them.
                          >
                          > First you can pry up with a large screw driver. Issue is space to do this and the fact you can jam them in their holes if they get out of column.
                          >
                          > I tried putting washers and a nut on 2 course 180mm 8mm course bolts to try and lever the inject off using the collar. It was a real pia to work the nuts in the tight confines, so I gave up before I broke the collar.
                          >
                          > Next you can spray some penetrant at the injector/cylinder head.
                          > Tap (not slam) the bolts sitting in the injector return lines to help it get into the crevices. Let it sit for a couple minutes.
                          >
                          > Using the adjustable wrench try to turn the injectors CLOCKWISE to break them loose. If you get 2 degrees twist, stop, add more pentrant and repeat as it will quickly loosen up and then you can just pull it out.
                          >
                          > OK, the injector has laughed at 4-5 applications of penetrant and twisting. Time to add heat to the routine which is major difference.
                          > This may take several applications.
                          >
                          > A propane torch is needed to heat the joint. Maybe you can get the head to expand enough to get some penetrant in there to do the job. More likely you have much of rust and carbon that have sized the injector to the head.
                          >
                          > A word about torches:
                          > - Be sure there is nothing around that can burn.
                          > - Be care where you point it.
                          > - Keep the flame as small as possible.
                          > - Have a fire extinguisher right next you at all times.
                          > - Aim the flame down at the metal and not allow it to skip across where it can catch something else on fire.
                          > - Have a clean flat area to set it.
                          > - Light corrosion can be dealt with a lightweight Benzomatic torch you get at any hardware store for $20. For nasty cases, you need one of the more heavy duty units. The best I have seen is a Benomatic with a 3 foot hose. This allows you to keep the tank upright while you maneuver the head any way you desire which keeps the torch from sputtering and is much safer. If you do not own one, ask one of your buddies.
                          >
                          > Here is the one I borrowed. A BERNZOMATIC BZ8250HT
                          > http://www.amazon.com/Bernzomatic-BZ8250HT-Trigger-Start-Hose-Torch/dp/B001OLVPOY
                          >
                          > It puts out 4-5 times the heat, so it gets the job done MUCH better.
                          > It also has an igniter and gas flow switch in the handle so on/off is easy.
                          >
                          > So we have our torch and ready to attack our injectors.
                          >
                          > Get some heat and work that into the cylinder head around the injector. I tried doing this on a 34 degree morning to cause real temp differences to try separate the two metals, but the density of that head just sucks up the heat of a consumer torch. You are basically trying to heat the joint to the point that the crud between the injector and head starts to give up a bit so you can get some penetrant in there to dissolve the rest of crude.
                          >
                          > I heat the intake manifold side to get the heat deep into the cylinder, then heat behind it on both sides. You removed the glow plug wiring so you do not burn it up as it is too close otherwise. You may burn some paint on the engine. Just stop off a second, blow out the flame and get going again.
                          >
                          > When the metal starts to smell hot and had wisps of smoke, take some of the penetrant and spray it at the joint . The stuff will go from liquid and then violently bubble at the joint for a second or two. You will notice the color has changed from clear to red or black as it runs down the side of the head. That is crud boiling out of the joint and will drip down the side into the bilge where those oil absorb pads will suck it up.
                          > You may even see particles in the fluid. Take the wrench and give that injector a strong twist. Nothing? Spray the injector with some more fluid and see what else bubbles out. Sooner or later, the metal is too cool to boil the fluid. Wipe off all the crud around the injector with a paper towel, and start another heat cycle. After 20 minutes or so, let it sit to cool off. Hit the joint with a wire brush and some more penetrant. Then start another heat cycle.
                          >
                          > Now you may have noticed my choice of penetrants. It is for a couple reasons:
                          > They are both pretty good.
                          > Both have very high flash points, so they do not catch fire when the torch flame hits some on the next cycle. Again, we have to minimize the chance of fire.
                          > I would give the edge to the PB Blaster for effectiveness, but not by much.
                          > And by the way, both only started making high flash point penetrants 2 years or so ago.
                          > If you are using an older can of either, check the label.
                          > Do not use Liquid Wrench or Cold Freeze as they explicitly say their stuff is volatile and keep it away from flames.
                          >
                          > After an hour or so. Get off your knees and take a break.
                          > Good for you and the injectors.
                          >
                          > Sooner or later, the injector will twist 2 degrees. Spray on more penetrant, and twist it back and forth with the wrench. May need another heat cycle but you are close to the end. Keep adding penetrant until you can turn it all the way around. Let it cool and then pop the recalcitrant injector out. Oil, put it back in the hole and move onto the next one.
                          >
                          > My rusted out injector looked like new sans the red paint by the time I got it out.
                          >
                          > If your injectors still have lots of paint and not too corroded, you should be able to pull each in about 15 minutes.
                          > If heavily corroded, they could take a couple hours. Each.
                          > If you have low power torch, it could be hours and hours if ever, so do not play with the small pencil type torches. I also did not see a difference between propane and MAP gas.
                          >
                          > Once they are all out, be sure you also have removed the injector gaskets. They are copper crush washers.
                          > They likely would be on the injector, but if not, they are still in the hole.
                          >
                          > Clean up the head area with acetone and a paper towel. With everything out of the way, it is a great time to remove the glow plugs to clean the contacts and put antisieze on the threads. These come out easily, but take a while because there are lots of threads and limited room to work the wrench.
                          >
                          > Remove the oil absorb pods in the bilge.
                          > They have sucked up all the penetrant, along with all the dirt, and paint flakes that have fallen on them.
                          >
                          > Remove the old injectors, remove that 8mm bolt in the return line and bag them for shipment to be rebuilt.
                          >
                          > When you get the new injectors installed, be sure to anti-seize them.
                          > When all assembled and a successful test fire the motor with no leaks, be sure to rattle can a new coat of paint.
                          > I suggest Toro red spray paint from any power supply company, as it is the same stuff at 20% of the costs (well the paper label says Toro instead of Westerbeke).
                          >
                          > Take your time, use lots of penetrant, use heat and most importantly use your head.
                          > Just a matter of time before they understand you are going to succeed and give up.
                          >
                          >
                          > Good Luck
                          >
                          >
                          > john
                          >

                        • sabre32sailor
                          Joe Picked them up last night. Turn around depends on when they are doing another batch, but in my case, it was ready 2 days later. Nothing of note from the
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 29, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Joe

                            Picked them up last night.
                            Turn around depends on when they are doing another batch, but in my case, it was ready 2 days later. Nothing of note from the Hansen.

                            Rebuilt units look like new.
                            They had been boiled out to where there was no dirt, rust, oil, or paint left. The sides looked to be polished to remove any rough surfaces due to corrosion. Injector tip and tip housing look to be new components.

                            All the tip ends are enclosed in protective covers like a new injector.

                            Can easily read the injector numbers off the side now.
                            ND
                            2020
                            9C

                            Have not been able to cross reference it on the internet. Your local diesel guy may be able to do better.

                            Price was $105 each.
                            Cost another $40 for the 9 washers (3 copper washers where they go into the head, and 6 rubberized banjo fittings for the return lines.
                            (w27 folks can add 25% for the extra cylinder).

                            Will install and fire the motor up tomorrow.



                            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <cbr_deuce@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > John
                            >
                            > nice write up! If I understand correctly you are sending them out to be rebuilt, it would be instructive to hear just "how good or bad" the injectors are, can you get some feedback from your re-builder? I am planning to pull mine in a week or two and take them to a local guy to be tested. $8 per injector to test, I will share the results.
                            >
                            > joe
                            >
                            > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I got all the injectors out after 10 hours yesterday.
                            > > What a pain in the kister.
                            > > If you can get some yard guy to do it for $200, it is money well spent.
                            > >
                            > > Anyhow, here is the method that proved successful.
                            > >
                            > > Us Sabre owners are at a disadvantage in that the engine compartment does not allow the use of a slide hammer. And most of us have engines installed during the Reagan administration.
                            > >
                            > > My back two injectors were never touched for 30 years. Still had paint on them The #1 injector was rusted in to the point that the collar on top was seized to the injector. Considering how sloppy that fit is, you understand how corroded that is.
                            > >
                            > > Mantra during all of this:
                            > > Slow, time, heat and penetrant are your friends. USE THEM!
                            > >
                            > > Tools:
                            > > Metric wrench set
                            > > Hammer
                            > > Penetrant (Seafoam deep creep or PB blaster) with one of those little red plastic straws that allow you to pinpoint where the stuff is going.
                            > > Large screwdrivers
                            > > 12" adjustable wrench
                            > > 2 rolls of paper towels
                            > > Acetone (to degrease the outside prior to painting).
                            > > Can of red spray paint.
                            > > several wire brushes of different shapes.
                            > > several 8mm bolts (1 per injector), fine thread. 10 mm length is fine.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Shut down the fuel supply.
                            > >
                            > > Put several oil absorb mats in the bilge under the motor and on the outside of the starboard stringer
                            > >
                            > > If you have your antifreeze tank located above the engine, you may wish to unbolt it from its mount and relocate to the other side of cylinder head to give yourself some room.
                            > >
                            > > Remove the air box.
                            > >
                            > > Remove the intake manifold.
                            > >
                            > > Remove the electric fuel pump.
                            > >
                            > > Remove the fuel filter assembly.
                            > >
                            > > Remove the return lines from all the injector. Be care not to lose the banjo washers on both sides of the banjo fittings. Take the 8mm fine thread bolts you bought and insert them into each injector return lines so debits cannot fall in
                            > >
                            > > Remove the fuel lines
                            > > Be careful and use 2 wrenches so you do not twist the lines.
                            > > The bottom connections can be a real pain because there is not a lot of room for the bottom wrench, especially the middle lines. I cut the ends off a glove and put the fingers over the injector pump holes so no crud gets into them.
                            > >
                            > > You may get a drip out of the line going into high pressure fuel pump. Likely coming from the return line connection. May have to disconnect and plug the return line to stop this annoying drip.
                            > >
                            > > Remove the glow plug wiring and set aside.
                            > >
                            > > Wire brush the cylinder head to get all the dirt, rust and peeled paint off. Be sure it is not on top of the head. Use some acetone and a paper towel to wipe down.
                            > >
                            > > Remove the injector hold down bolts. there are 2 8mmx35mm course thread bolts per injector.
                            > >
                            > > Pull the injector straight out. If it happens, go buy a lottery ticket, for it is your lucky day.
                            > > But first oil the injector and reinsert it to keep crud from getting in the cylinder until you have all of them removed. Are you still lucky on the other injectors? More likely the other injectors are in there tight.
                            > >
                            > > Now we get into how to remove those stuck injectors.
                            > > We will work from Mr. Nice Guy to going Medieval on them.
                            > >
                            > > First you can pry up with a large screw driver. Issue is space to do this and the fact you can jam them in their holes if they get out of column.
                            > >
                            > > I tried putting washers and a nut on 2 course 180mm 8mm course bolts to try and lever the inject off using the collar. It was a real pia to work the nuts in the tight confines, so I gave up before I broke the collar.
                            > >
                            > > Next you can spray some penetrant at the injector/cylinder head.
                            > > Tap (not slam) the bolts sitting in the injector return lines to help it get into the crevices. Let it sit for a couple minutes.
                            > >
                            > > Using the adjustable wrench try to turn the injectors CLOCKWISE to break them loose. If you get 2 degrees twist, stop, add more pentrant and repeat as it will quickly loosen up and then you can just pull it out.
                            > >
                            > > OK, the injector has laughed at 4-5 applications of penetrant and twisting. Time to add heat to the routine which is major difference.
                            > > This may take several applications.
                            > >
                            > > A propane torch is needed to heat the joint. Maybe you can get the head to expand enough to get some penetrant in there to do the job. More likely you have much of rust and carbon that have sized the injector to the head.
                            > >
                            > > A word about torches:
                            > > - Be sure there is nothing around that can burn.
                            > > - Be care where you point it.
                            > > - Keep the flame as small as possible.
                            > > - Have a fire extinguisher right next you at all times.
                            > > - Aim the flame down at the metal and not allow it to skip across where it can catch something else on fire.
                            > > - Have a clean flat area to set it.
                            > > - Light corrosion can be dealt with a lightweight Benzomatic torch you get at any hardware store for $20. For nasty cases, you need one of the more heavy duty units. The best I have seen is a Benomatic with a 3 foot hose. This allows you to keep the tank upright while you maneuver the head any way you desire which keeps the torch from sputtering and is much safer. If you do not own one, ask one of your buddies.
                            > >
                            > > Here is the one I borrowed. A BERNZOMATIC BZ8250HT
                            > > http://www.amazon.com/Bernzomatic-BZ8250HT-Trigger-Start-Hose-Torch/dp/B001OLVPOY
                            > >
                            > > It puts out 4-5 times the heat, so it gets the job done MUCH better.
                            > > It also has an igniter and gas flow switch in the handle so on/off is easy.
                            > >
                            > > So we have our torch and ready to attack our injectors.
                            > >
                            > > Get some heat and work that into the cylinder head around the injector. I tried doing this on a 34 degree morning to cause real temp differences to try separate the two metals, but the density of that head just sucks up the heat of a consumer torch. You are basically trying to heat the joint to the point that the crud between the injector and head starts to give up a bit so you can get some penetrant in there to dissolve the rest of crude.
                            > >
                            > > I heat the intake manifold side to get the heat deep into the cylinder, then heat behind it on both sides. You removed the glow plug wiring so you do not burn it up as it is too close otherwise. You may burn some paint on the engine. Just stop off a second, blow out the flame and get going again.
                            > >
                            > > When the metal starts to smell hot and had wisps of smoke, take some of the penetrant and spray it at the joint . The stuff will go from liquid and then violently bubble at the joint for a second or two. You will notice the color has changed from clear to red or black as it runs down the side of the head. That is crud boiling out of the joint and will drip down the side into the bilge where those oil absorb pads will suck it up.
                            > > You may even see particles in the fluid. Take the wrench and give that injector a strong twist. Nothing? Spray the injector with some more fluid and see what else bubbles out. Sooner or later, the metal is too cool to boil the fluid. Wipe off all the crud around the injector with a paper towel, and start another heat cycle. After 20 minutes or so, let it sit to cool off. Hit the joint with a wire brush and some more penetrant. Then start another heat cycle.
                            > >
                            > > Now you may have noticed my choice of penetrants. It is for a couple reasons:
                            > > They are both pretty good.
                            > > Both have very high flash points, so they do not catch fire when the torch flame hits some on the next cycle. Again, we have to minimize the chance of fire.
                            > > I would give the edge to the PB Blaster for effectiveness, but not by much.
                            > > And by the way, both only started making high flash point penetrants 2 years or so ago.
                            > > If you are using an older can of either, check the label.
                            > > Do not use Liquid Wrench or Cold Freeze as they explicitly say their stuff is volatile and keep it away from flames.
                            > >
                            > > After an hour or so. Get off your knees and take a break.
                            > > Good for you and the injectors.
                            > >
                            > > Sooner or later, the injector will twist 2 degrees. Spray on more penetrant, and twist it back and forth with the wrench. May need another heat cycle but you are close to the end. Keep adding penetrant until you can turn it all the way around. Let it cool and then pop the recalcitrant injector out. Oil, put it back in the hole and move onto the next one.
                            > >
                            > > My rusted out injector looked like new sans the red paint by the time I got it out.
                            > >
                            > > If your injectors still have lots of paint and not too corroded, you should be able to pull each in about 15 minutes.
                            > > If heavily corroded, they could take a couple hours. Each.
                            > > If you have low power torch, it could be hours and hours if ever, so do not play with the small pencil type torches. I also did not see a difference between propane and MAP gas.
                            > >
                            > > Once they are all out, be sure you also have removed the injector gaskets. They are copper crush washers.
                            > > They likely would be on the injector, but if not, they are still in the hole.
                            > >
                            > > Clean up the head area with acetone and a paper towel. With everything out of the way, it is a great time to remove the glow plugs to clean the contacts and put antisieze on the threads. These come out easily, but take a while because there are lots of threads and limited room to work the wrench.
                            > >
                            > > Remove the oil absorb pods in the bilge.
                            > > They have sucked up all the penetrant, along with all the dirt, and paint flakes that have fallen on them.
                            > >
                            > > Remove the old injectors, remove that 8mm bolt in the return line and bag them for shipment to be rebuilt.
                            > >
                            > > When you get the new injectors installed, be sure to anti-seize them.
                            > > When all assembled and a successful test fire the motor with no leaks, be sure to rattle can a new coat of paint.
                            > > I suggest Toro red spray paint from any power supply company, as it is the same stuff at 20% of the costs (well the paper label says Toro instead of Westerbeke).
                            > >
                            > > Take your time, use lots of penetrant, use heat and most importantly use your head.
                            > > Just a matter of time before they understand you are going to succeed and give up.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Good Luck
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > john
                            > >
                            >
                          • Joe
                            Cool, thanks for the update. I m sure she ll fire right up. I will get mine out this week, I think the weather has finally broke! Joe
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 29, 2013
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                              Cool, thanks for the update. I'm sure she'll fire right up. I will get mine out this week, I think the weather has finally broke!

                              Joe

                              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Joe
                              >
                              > Picked them up last night.
                              > Turn around depends on when they are doing another batch, but in my case, it was ready 2 days later. Nothing of note from the Hansen.
                              >
                              > Rebuilt units look like new.
                              > They had been boiled out to where there was no dirt, rust, oil, or paint left. The sides looked to be polished to remove any rough surfaces due to corrosion. Injector tip and tip housing look to be new components.
                              >
                              > All the tip ends are enclosed in protective covers like a new injector.
                              >
                              > Can easily read the injector numbers off the side now.
                              > ND
                              > 2020
                              > 9C
                              >
                              > Have not been able to cross reference it on the internet. Your local diesel guy may be able to do better.
                              >
                              > Price was $105 each.
                              > Cost another $40 for the 9 washers (3 copper washers where they go into the head, and 6 rubberized banjo fittings for the return lines.
                              > (w27 folks can add 25% for the extra cylinder).
                              >
                              > Will install and fire the motor up tomorrow.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <cbr_deuce@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > John
                              > >
                              > > nice write up! If I understand correctly you are sending them out to be rebuilt, it would be instructive to hear just "how good or bad" the injectors are, can you get some feedback from your re-builder? I am planning to pull mine in a week or two and take them to a local guy to be tested. $8 per injector to test, I will share the results.
                              > >
                              > > joe
                              > >
                              > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > I got all the injectors out after 10 hours yesterday.
                              > > > What a pain in the kister.
                              > > > If you can get some yard guy to do it for $200, it is money well spent.
                              > > >
                              > > > Anyhow, here is the method that proved successful.
                              > > >
                              > > > Us Sabre owners are at a disadvantage in that the engine compartment does not allow the use of a slide hammer. And most of us have engines installed during the Reagan administration.
                              > > >
                              > > > My back two injectors were never touched for 30 years. Still had paint on them The #1 injector was rusted in to the point that the collar on top was seized to the injector. Considering how sloppy that fit is, you understand how corroded that is.
                              > > >
                              > > > Mantra during all of this:
                              > > > Slow, time, heat and penetrant are your friends. USE THEM!
                              > > >
                              > > > Tools:
                              > > > Metric wrench set
                              > > > Hammer
                              > > > Penetrant (Seafoam deep creep or PB blaster) with one of those little red plastic straws that allow you to pinpoint where the stuff is going.
                              > > > Large screwdrivers
                              > > > 12" adjustable wrench
                              > > > 2 rolls of paper towels
                              > > > Acetone (to degrease the outside prior to painting).
                              > > > Can of red spray paint.
                              > > > several wire brushes of different shapes.
                              > > > several 8mm bolts (1 per injector), fine thread. 10 mm length is fine.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Shut down the fuel supply.
                              > > >
                              > > > Put several oil absorb mats in the bilge under the motor and on the outside of the starboard stringer
                              > > >
                              > > > If you have your antifreeze tank located above the engine, you may wish to unbolt it from its mount and relocate to the other side of cylinder head to give yourself some room.
                              > > >
                              > > > Remove the air box.
                              > > >
                              > > > Remove the intake manifold.
                              > > >
                              > > > Remove the electric fuel pump.
                              > > >
                              > > > Remove the fuel filter assembly.
                              > > >
                              > > > Remove the return lines from all the injector. Be care not to lose the banjo washers on both sides of the banjo fittings. Take the 8mm fine thread bolts you bought and insert them into each injector return lines so debits cannot fall in
                              > > >
                              > > > Remove the fuel lines
                              > > > Be careful and use 2 wrenches so you do not twist the lines.
                              > > > The bottom connections can be a real pain because there is not a lot of room for the bottom wrench, especially the middle lines. I cut the ends off a glove and put the fingers over the injector pump holes so no crud gets into them.
                              > > >
                              > > > You may get a drip out of the line going into high pressure fuel pump. Likely coming from the return line connection. May have to disconnect and plug the return line to stop this annoying drip.
                              > > >
                              > > > Remove the glow plug wiring and set aside.
                              > > >
                              > > > Wire brush the cylinder head to get all the dirt, rust and peeled paint off. Be sure it is not on top of the head. Use some acetone and a paper towel to wipe down.
                              > > >
                              > > > Remove the injector hold down bolts. there are 2 8mmx35mm course thread bolts per injector.
                              > > >
                              > > > Pull the injector straight out. If it happens, go buy a lottery ticket, for it is your lucky day.
                              > > > But first oil the injector and reinsert it to keep crud from getting in the cylinder until you have all of them removed. Are you still lucky on the other injectors? More likely the other injectors are in there tight.
                              > > >
                              > > > Now we get into how to remove those stuck injectors.
                              > > > We will work from Mr. Nice Guy to going Medieval on them.
                              > > >
                              > > > First you can pry up with a large screw driver. Issue is space to do this and the fact you can jam them in their holes if they get out of column.
                              > > >
                              > > > I tried putting washers and a nut on 2 course 180mm 8mm course bolts to try and lever the inject off using the collar. It was a real pia to work the nuts in the tight confines, so I gave up before I broke the collar.
                              > > >
                              > > > Next you can spray some penetrant at the injector/cylinder head.
                              > > > Tap (not slam) the bolts sitting in the injector return lines to help it get into the crevices. Let it sit for a couple minutes.
                              > > >
                              > > > Using the adjustable wrench try to turn the injectors CLOCKWISE to break them loose. If you get 2 degrees twist, stop, add more pentrant and repeat as it will quickly loosen up and then you can just pull it out.
                              > > >
                              > > > OK, the injector has laughed at 4-5 applications of penetrant and twisting. Time to add heat to the routine which is major difference.
                              > > > This may take several applications.
                              > > >
                              > > > A propane torch is needed to heat the joint. Maybe you can get the head to expand enough to get some penetrant in there to do the job. More likely you have much of rust and carbon that have sized the injector to the head.
                              > > >
                              > > > A word about torches:
                              > > > - Be sure there is nothing around that can burn.
                              > > > - Be care where you point it.
                              > > > - Keep the flame as small as possible.
                              > > > - Have a fire extinguisher right next you at all times.
                              > > > - Aim the flame down at the metal and not allow it to skip across where it can catch something else on fire.
                              > > > - Have a clean flat area to set it.
                              > > > - Light corrosion can be dealt with a lightweight Benzomatic torch you get at any hardware store for $20. For nasty cases, you need one of the more heavy duty units. The best I have seen is a Benomatic with a 3 foot hose. This allows you to keep the tank upright while you maneuver the head any way you desire which keeps the torch from sputtering and is much safer. If you do not own one, ask one of your buddies.
                              > > >
                              > > > Here is the one I borrowed. A BERNZOMATIC BZ8250HT
                              > > > http://www.amazon.com/Bernzomatic-BZ8250HT-Trigger-Start-Hose-Torch/dp/B001OLVPOY
                              > > >
                              > > > It puts out 4-5 times the heat, so it gets the job done MUCH better.
                              > > > It also has an igniter and gas flow switch in the handle so on/off is easy.
                              > > >
                              > > > So we have our torch and ready to attack our injectors.
                              > > >
                              > > > Get some heat and work that into the cylinder head around the injector. I tried doing this on a 34 degree morning to cause real temp differences to try separate the two metals, but the density of that head just sucks up the heat of a consumer torch. You are basically trying to heat the joint to the point that the crud between the injector and head starts to give up a bit so you can get some penetrant in there to dissolve the rest of crude.
                              > > >
                              > > > I heat the intake manifold side to get the heat deep into the cylinder, then heat behind it on both sides. You removed the glow plug wiring so you do not burn it up as it is too close otherwise. You may burn some paint on the engine. Just stop off a second, blow out the flame and get going again.
                              > > >
                              > > > When the metal starts to smell hot and had wisps of smoke, take some of the penetrant and spray it at the joint . The stuff will go from liquid and then violently bubble at the joint for a second or two. You will notice the color has changed from clear to red or black as it runs down the side of the head. That is crud boiling out of the joint and will drip down the side into the bilge where those oil absorb pads will suck it up.
                              > > > You may even see particles in the fluid. Take the wrench and give that injector a strong twist. Nothing? Spray the injector with some more fluid and see what else bubbles out. Sooner or later, the metal is too cool to boil the fluid. Wipe off all the crud around the injector with a paper towel, and start another heat cycle. After 20 minutes or so, let it sit to cool off. Hit the joint with a wire brush and some more penetrant. Then start another heat cycle.
                              > > >
                              > > > Now you may have noticed my choice of penetrants. It is for a couple reasons:
                              > > > They are both pretty good.
                              > > > Both have very high flash points, so they do not catch fire when the torch flame hits some on the next cycle. Again, we have to minimize the chance of fire.
                              > > > I would give the edge to the PB Blaster for effectiveness, but not by much.
                              > > > And by the way, both only started making high flash point penetrants 2 years or so ago.
                              > > > If you are using an older can of either, check the label.
                              > > > Do not use Liquid Wrench or Cold Freeze as they explicitly say their stuff is volatile and keep it away from flames.
                              > > >
                              > > > After an hour or so. Get off your knees and take a break.
                              > > > Good for you and the injectors.
                              > > >
                              > > > Sooner or later, the injector will twist 2 degrees. Spray on more penetrant, and twist it back and forth with the wrench. May need another heat cycle but you are close to the end. Keep adding penetrant until you can turn it all the way around. Let it cool and then pop the recalcitrant injector out. Oil, put it back in the hole and move onto the next one.
                              > > >
                              > > > My rusted out injector looked like new sans the red paint by the time I got it out.
                              > > >
                              > > > If your injectors still have lots of paint and not too corroded, you should be able to pull each in about 15 minutes.
                              > > > If heavily corroded, they could take a couple hours. Each.
                              > > > If you have low power torch, it could be hours and hours if ever, so do not play with the small pencil type torches. I also did not see a difference between propane and MAP gas.
                              > > >
                              > > > Once they are all out, be sure you also have removed the injector gaskets. They are copper crush washers.
                              > > > They likely would be on the injector, but if not, they are still in the hole.
                              > > >
                              > > > Clean up the head area with acetone and a paper towel. With everything out of the way, it is a great time to remove the glow plugs to clean the contacts and put antisieze on the threads. These come out easily, but take a while because there are lots of threads and limited room to work the wrench.
                              > > >
                              > > > Remove the oil absorb pods in the bilge.
                              > > > They have sucked up all the penetrant, along with all the dirt, and paint flakes that have fallen on them.
                              > > >
                              > > > Remove the old injectors, remove that 8mm bolt in the return line and bag them for shipment to be rebuilt.
                              > > >
                              > > > When you get the new injectors installed, be sure to anti-seize them.
                              > > > When all assembled and a successful test fire the motor with no leaks, be sure to rattle can a new coat of paint.
                              > > > I suggest Toro red spray paint from any power supply company, as it is the same stuff at 20% of the costs (well the paper label says Toro instead of Westerbeke).
                              > > >
                              > > > Take your time, use lots of penetrant, use heat and most importantly use your head.
                              > > > Just a matter of time before they understand you are going to succeed and give up.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Good Luck
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > john
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • sabre32sailor
                              Just to finish up this thread, I re-installed the injectors yesterday. Had a recalcitrant copper washer in the head I needed to remove first. Using a thin
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 31, 2013
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                                Just to finish up this thread, I re-installed the injectors yesterday.
                                Had a recalcitrant copper washer in the head I needed to remove first.
                                Using a thin screwdriver and a couple shots of penetrant I dissolved and removed the carbon holding it firm so I could remove it.

                                I put anti-seize on the injectors before installing. During assembly I went through the system to ensure everything was clean inside and out. Found a dirt and dead critters in the corners of the electric pump and engine filter housing.

                                Lightly tighten the injector collars until you have all the geometry correct for the fuel and return lines. then you can snug down.
                                Best to tighten the lower bolt on the mechanical pump with an adjustable wrench. lightly install the return lines before putting on the fuel lines. Snug the fuel lines, then back off 3/4th of a turn at the injectors. Then tighten the return lines, and injector collars.

                                As Joe mentioned, you need to bleed the system (hence why we backed off the fuel connections at the injectors. Start by turning on the fuel petcock.

                                You also need to crack the engine fuel filter collar and then energize the system. Snug the filter collar once you see fuel starting to drip.

                                Next we need to bleed the injectors. Have someone crank the engine over 10 seconds at a time until you see a bit of fuel starting to drip at the connector. Snug each connectors until they all have been done.

                                At this point you are ready to fire the motor. Took a couple extra tries as it was only 44 degrees out, and once she fires, it may be off for a moment as it runs on less than all cylinders until they all are fully bled.

                                Once she fired, she settled down immediately. Took a couple minutes for the valves to settle in after a long cold winter, but the motor sounded strong. More importantly, it is noticably smoother (had the guy helping me comment on it). Also does not seem to vibrate as much at idle.

                                Was getting late and the engine was hot, so I did not have a chance to repaint the motor.

                                Took close to 20 hours to get the injectors out.
                                Reassembly & fire up took 5 hours.
                                Note this time includes degreasing the motor, hand wire brushing all components and fixing anything not perfect along the way. Could have knocked 10-12 hours off disassembly with what I now know about using a larger torch.

                                Not a job for the faint of heart, but it is a job anyone can do if they take their time.

                                One final tip. When removing the fuel lines, loosen but do not remove the clips holding them together. It will make figuring out the geometry a whole lot easier.

                                Regards

                                john
                              • Joe
                                I completed my injector project yesterday. The access in the 38II is great and I had all injectors out within 2 hours (I bought a lottery ticket). Using a
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 13, 2013
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                                  I completed my injector project yesterday. The access in the 38II is great and I had all injectors out within 2 hours (I bought a lottery ticket). Using a wrench to turn the injector and then a screw driver to provide some upward force was all I needed. It did take quite a bit of force to break them loose but no heat was needed. One note, when turning them you should go clockwise first or you may simply loosen the top of the injector from the body. As John has stated cleanliness is the first priority. I found simply scrapping with a small screw driver in conjunction with a shop vac worked great.

                                  I took them to Hoffmann's Fuel Injection Service (Newark, DE), which is very close to home, I haul at Summit North Marina on the C&D Canal. This is a second generation family run business. I can't say enough good things and I didn't even know they existed until 3 weeks ago. Dropped them off Monday afternoon and they were done Tuesday morning. They bench tested them ($8 each but this was not on my bill) for me and gave me a quote of $90-$105 to rebuild. I figured that they were original so that put about 2400 hours on them. When bench tested they didn't pop like they should, had some leak by and didn't atomize very well. Their diagnosis was that they were well worn, overdue but not the worst that have come thru the door.

                                  Rebuild was $90 each and they showed me what an injector should fire like on the bench, what a difference!

                                  A little background, my symptoms were - cold starts needed to throttle up to about 1500 until she warmed up a bit before idling smoothly at 1000 rpm and just recently she would "get the shakes" when you put her in gear at idle, I would only only have to bump the throttle up the slightest bit and she would smooth out. Booth of these are signs of poor fuel atomization and injector leak by. At cruising speed she always ran like a champ.

                                  I put them back in (lottery ticket didn't win) with a little anti-seize, bled, and she started right up at idle speed, smooooooth. I didn't run her long but can't wait to get back in the water next week. Power and fuel mileage should be up!

                                  They also gave me a fuel additive called Stanadyne for water, centane boost, and lubrication. He was quite outspoken that USA diesel has been stripped by the EPA and they see a difference in equipment between customers that use it and don't. $10 treats 60 gallons. Always use a 2 micron filter, too.

                                  Considering the manual, W 38B FOUR states injector service every 800 hours I would say they were well overdue. And understanding now what harm a poor injector does to an engine, I would have pulled them when I bought that boat at 1200 hours. But being a big believer in the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" theory, she did run fine up until last year. Moral of the story, don't simply adjust your idle up to mask a problem but don't create any problems when they don't exist either.

                                  Lastly I adjusted the valves while I was there, no major changes all exhaust valves were slightly tight and all intake were slight loose, none more than a quarter turn.

                                  Over and out,

                                  Joe





                                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Just to finish up this thread, I re-installed the injectors yesterday.
                                  > Had a recalcitrant copper washer in the head I needed to remove first.
                                  > Using a thin screwdriver and a couple shots of penetrant I dissolved and removed the carbon holding it firm so I could remove it.
                                  >
                                  > I put anti-seize on the injectors before installing. During assembly I went through the system to ensure everything was clean inside and out. Found a dirt and dead critters in the corners of the electric pump and engine filter housing.
                                  >
                                  > Lightly tighten the injector collars until you have all the geometry correct for the fuel and return lines. then you can snug down.
                                  > Best to tighten the lower bolt on the mechanical pump with an adjustable wrench. lightly install the return lines before putting on the fuel lines. Snug the fuel lines, then back off 3/4th of a turn at the injectors. Then tighten the return lines, and injector collars.
                                  >
                                  > As Joe mentioned, you need to bleed the system (hence why we backed off the fuel connections at the injectors. Start by turning on the fuel petcock.
                                  >
                                  > You also need to crack the engine fuel filter collar and then energize the system. Snug the filter collar once you see fuel starting to drip.
                                  >
                                  > Next we need to bleed the injectors. Have someone crank the engine over 10 seconds at a time until you see a bit of fuel starting to drip at the connector. Snug each connectors until they all have been done.
                                  >
                                  > At this point you are ready to fire the motor. Took a couple extra tries as it was only 44 degrees out, and once she fires, it may be off for a moment as it runs on less than all cylinders until they all are fully bled.
                                  >
                                  > Once she fired, she settled down immediately. Took a couple minutes for the valves to settle in after a long cold winter, but the motor sounded strong. More importantly, it is noticably smoother (had the guy helping me comment on it). Also does not seem to vibrate as much at idle.
                                  >
                                  > Was getting late and the engine was hot, so I did not have a chance to repaint the motor.
                                  >
                                  > Took close to 20 hours to get the injectors out.
                                  > Reassembly & fire up took 5 hours.
                                  > Note this time includes degreasing the motor, hand wire brushing all components and fixing anything not perfect along the way. Could have knocked 10-12 hours off disassembly with what I now know about using a larger torch.
                                  >
                                  > Not a job for the faint of heart, but it is a job anyone can do if they take their time.
                                  >
                                  > One final tip. When removing the fuel lines, loosen but do not remove the clips holding them together. It will make figuring out the geometry a whole lot easier.
                                  >
                                  > Regards
                                  >
                                  > john
                                  >
                                • walkabout193
                                  Joe I appreciate your report on the injector rebuild. I also have a 38Bfour. Mine has 1600 hours, no issues but next season I m going to put rebuilding the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 14, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Joe
                                    I appreciate your report on the injector rebuild. I also have a 38Bfour. Mine has 1600 hours, no issues but next season I'm going to put rebuilding the injectors on my project list.
                                    Len Bertaux
                                    Walkabout
                                    --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <cbr_deuce@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I completed my injector project yesterday. The access in the 38II is great and I had all injectors out within 2 hours (I bought a lottery ticket). Using a wrench to turn the injector and then a screw driver to provide some upward force was all I needed. It did take quite a bit of force to break them loose but no heat was needed. One note, when turning them you should go clockwise first or you may simply loosen the top of the injector from the body. As John has stated cleanliness is the first priority. I found simply scrapping with a small screw driver in conjunction with a shop vac worked great.
                                    >
                                    > I took them to Hoffmann's Fuel Injection Service (Newark, DE), which is very close to home, I haul at Summit North Marina on the C&D Canal. This is a second generation family run business. I can't say enough good things and I didn't even know they existed until 3 weeks ago. Dropped them off Monday afternoon and they were done Tuesday morning. They bench tested them ($8 each but this was not on my bill) for me and gave me a quote of $90-$105 to rebuild. I figured that they were original so that put about 2400 hours on them. When bench tested they didn't pop like they should, had some leak by and didn't atomize very well. Their diagnosis was that they were well worn, overdue but not the worst that have come thru the door.
                                    >
                                    > Rebuild was $90 each and they showed me what an injector should fire like on the bench, what a difference!
                                    >
                                    > A little background, my symptoms were - cold starts needed to throttle up to about 1500 until she warmed up a bit before idling smoothly at 1000 rpm and just recently she would "get the shakes" when you put her in gear at idle, I would only only have to bump the throttle up the slightest bit and she would smooth out. Booth of these are signs of poor fuel atomization and injector leak by. At cruising speed she always ran like a champ.
                                    >
                                    > I put them back in (lottery ticket didn't win) with a little anti-seize, bled, and she started right up at idle speed, smooooooth. I didn't run her long but can't wait to get back in the water next week. Power and fuel mileage should be up!
                                    >
                                    > They also gave me a fuel additive called Stanadyne for water, centane boost, and lubrication. He was quite outspoken that USA diesel has been stripped by the EPA and they see a difference in equipment between customers that use it and don't. $10 treats 60 gallons. Always use a 2 micron filter, too.
                                    >
                                    > Considering the manual, W 38B FOUR states injector service every 800 hours I would say they were well overdue. And understanding now what harm a poor injector does to an engine, I would have pulled them when I bought that boat at 1200 hours. But being a big believer in the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" theory, she did run fine up until last year. Moral of the story, don't simply adjust your idle up to mask a problem but don't create any problems when they don't exist either.
                                    >
                                    > Lastly I adjusted the valves while I was there, no major changes all exhaust valves were slightly tight and all intake were slight loose, none more than a quarter turn.
                                    >
                                    > Over and out,
                                    >
                                    > Joe
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Just to finish up this thread, I re-installed the injectors yesterday.
                                    > > Had a recalcitrant copper washer in the head I needed to remove first.
                                    > > Using a thin screwdriver and a couple shots of penetrant I dissolved and removed the carbon holding it firm so I could remove it.
                                    > >
                                    > > I put anti-seize on the injectors before installing. During assembly I went through the system to ensure everything was clean inside and out. Found a dirt and dead critters in the corners of the electric pump and engine filter housing.
                                    > >
                                    > > Lightly tighten the injector collars until you have all the geometry correct for the fuel and return lines. then you can snug down.
                                    > > Best to tighten the lower bolt on the mechanical pump with an adjustable wrench. lightly install the return lines before putting on the fuel lines. Snug the fuel lines, then back off 3/4th of a turn at the injectors. Then tighten the return lines, and injector collars.
                                    > >
                                    > > As Joe mentioned, you need to bleed the system (hence why we backed off the fuel connections at the injectors. Start by turning on the fuel petcock.
                                    > >
                                    > > You also need to crack the engine fuel filter collar and then energize the system. Snug the filter collar once you see fuel starting to drip.
                                    > >
                                    > > Next we need to bleed the injectors. Have someone crank the engine over 10 seconds at a time until you see a bit of fuel starting to drip at the connector. Snug each connectors until they all have been done.
                                    > >
                                    > > At this point you are ready to fire the motor. Took a couple extra tries as it was only 44 degrees out, and once she fires, it may be off for a moment as it runs on less than all cylinders until they all are fully bled.
                                    > >
                                    > > Once she fired, she settled down immediately. Took a couple minutes for the valves to settle in after a long cold winter, but the motor sounded strong. More importantly, it is noticably smoother (had the guy helping me comment on it). Also does not seem to vibrate as much at idle.
                                    > >
                                    > > Was getting late and the engine was hot, so I did not have a chance to repaint the motor.
                                    > >
                                    > > Took close to 20 hours to get the injectors out.
                                    > > Reassembly & fire up took 5 hours.
                                    > > Note this time includes degreasing the motor, hand wire brushing all components and fixing anything not perfect along the way. Could have knocked 10-12 hours off disassembly with what I now know about using a larger torch.
                                    > >
                                    > > Not a job for the faint of heart, but it is a job anyone can do if they take their time.
                                    > >
                                    > > One final tip. When removing the fuel lines, loosen but do not remove the clips holding them together. It will make figuring out the geometry a whole lot easier.
                                    > >
                                    > > Regards
                                    > >
                                    > > john
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Don Kerrigan
                                    Joe, I have a 30B3 in my 34 and have been experiencing the same problems, especially in gear at idle speeds. It feels as though it is surging. Thank you for
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 14, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Joe,
                                         I have a 30B3 in my 34 and have been experiencing the same problems, especially in gear at idle speeds.  It feels as though it is surging.  Thank you for describing your symptoms!


                                      On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 8:03 AM, walkabout193 <lbertaux@...> wrote:
                                       


                                      Joe
                                      I appreciate your report on the injector rebuild. I also have a 38Bfour. Mine has 1600 hours, no issues but next season I'm going to put rebuilding the injectors on my project list.
                                      Len Bertaux
                                      Walkabout


                                      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <cbr_deuce@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I completed my injector project yesterday. The access in the 38II is great and I had all injectors out within 2 hours (I bought a lottery ticket). Using a wrench to turn the injector and then a screw driver to provide some upward force was all I needed. It did take quite a bit of force to break them loose but no heat was needed. One note, when turning them you should go clockwise first or you may simply loosen the top of the injector from the body. As John has stated cleanliness is the first priority. I found simply scrapping with a small screw driver in conjunction with a shop vac worked great.
                                      >
                                      > I took them to Hoffmann's Fuel Injection Service (Newark, DE), which is very close to home, I haul at Summit North Marina on the C&D Canal. This is a second generation family run business. I can't say enough good things and I didn't even know they existed until 3 weeks ago. Dropped them off Monday afternoon and they were done Tuesday morning. They bench tested them ($8 each but this was not on my bill) for me and gave me a quote of $90-$105 to rebuild. I figured that they were original so that put about 2400 hours on them. When bench tested they didn't pop like they should, had some leak by and didn't atomize very well. Their diagnosis was that they were well worn, overdue but not the worst that have come thru the door.
                                      >
                                      > Rebuild was $90 each and they showed me what an injector should fire like on the bench, what a difference!
                                      >
                                      > A little background, my symptoms were - cold starts needed to throttle up to about 1500 until she warmed up a bit before idling smoothly at 1000 rpm and just recently she would "get the shakes" when you put her in gear at idle, I would only only have to bump the throttle up the slightest bit and she would smooth out. Booth of these are signs of poor fuel atomization and injector leak by. At cruising speed she always ran like a champ.
                                      >
                                      > I put them back in (lottery ticket didn't win) with a little anti-seize, bled, and she started right up at idle speed, smooooooth. I didn't run her long but can't wait to get back in the water next week. Power and fuel mileage should be up!
                                      >
                                      > They also gave me a fuel additive called Stanadyne for water, centane boost, and lubrication. He was quite outspoken that USA diesel has been stripped by the EPA and they see a difference in equipment between customers that use it and don't. $10 treats 60 gallons. Always use a 2 micron filter, too.
                                      >
                                      > Considering the manual, W 38B FOUR states injector service every 800 hours I would say they were well overdue. And understanding now what harm a poor injector does to an engine, I would have pulled them when I bought that boat at 1200 hours. But being a big believer in the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" theory, she did run fine up until last year. Moral of the story, don't simply adjust your idle up to mask a problem but don't create any problems when they don't exist either.
                                      >
                                      > Lastly I adjusted the valves while I was there, no major changes all exhaust valves were slightly tight and all intake were slight loose, none more than a quarter turn.
                                      >
                                      > Over and out,
                                      >
                                      > Joe
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sabre32sailor" <sabre32sailor@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Just to finish up this thread, I re-installed the injectors yesterday.
                                      > > Had a recalcitrant copper washer in the head I needed to remove first.
                                      > > Using a thin screwdriver and a couple shots of penetrant I dissolved and removed the carbon holding it firm so I could remove it.
                                      > >
                                      > > I put anti-seize on the injectors before installing. During assembly I went through the system to ensure everything was clean inside and out. Found a dirt and dead critters in the corners of the electric pump and engine filter housing.
                                      > >
                                      > > Lightly tighten the injector collars until you have all the geometry correct for the fuel and return lines. then you can snug down.
                                      > > Best to tighten the lower bolt on the mechanical pump with an adjustable wrench. lightly install the return lines before putting on the fuel lines. Snug the fuel lines, then back off 3/4th of a turn at the injectors. Then tighten the return lines, and injector collars.
                                      > >
                                      > > As Joe mentioned, you need to bleed the system (hence why we backed off the fuel connections at the injectors. Start by turning on the fuel petcock.
                                      > >
                                      > > You also need to crack the engine fuel filter collar and then energize the system. Snug the filter collar once you see fuel starting to drip.
                                      > >
                                      > > Next we need to bleed the injectors. Have someone crank the engine over 10 seconds at a time until you see a bit of fuel starting to drip at the connector. Snug each connectors until they all have been done.
                                      > >
                                      > > At this point you are ready to fire the motor. Took a couple extra tries as it was only 44 degrees out, and once she fires, it may be off for a moment as it runs on less than all cylinders until they all are fully bled.
                                      > >
                                      > > Once she fired, she settled down immediately. Took a couple minutes for the valves to settle in after a long cold winter, but the motor sounded strong. More importantly, it is noticably smoother (had the guy helping me comment on it). Also does not seem to vibrate as much at idle.
                                      > >
                                      > > Was getting late and the engine was hot, so I did not have a chance to repaint the motor.
                                      > >
                                      > > Took close to 20 hours to get the injectors out.
                                      > > Reassembly & fire up took 5 hours.
                                      > > Note this time includes degreasing the motor, hand wire brushing all components and fixing anything not perfect along the way. Could have knocked 10-12 hours off disassembly with what I now know about using a larger torch.
                                      > >
                                      > > Not a job for the faint of heart, but it is a job anyone can do if they take their time.
                                      > >
                                      > > One final tip. When removing the fuel lines, loosen but do not remove the clips holding them together. It will make figuring out the geometry a whole lot easier.
                                      > >
                                      > > Regards
                                      > >
                                      > > john
                                      > >
                                      >




                                      --
                                      Don Kerrigan "Kanaloa's Call" Sabre 34T #385 Bay Point Marina, Norfolk, VA
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