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Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

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  • Jim Starkey
    Case in point: Last summer we were heading east. The wind, mostly unforecast, was honking out of the SE at 25 knots apparent and 6-8 foot following seas. We
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 25, 2013
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      Case in point:  Last summer we were heading east.  The wind, mostly unforecast, was honking out of the SE at 25 knots apparent and 6-8 foot following seas.  We were towing a 9' Avon with a high pressure flow.  The motor was on the rail and everything in the dinghy was tied down.  Off Cape Porpoise, the dinghy painter parted.  Bummer.  We were able come up to it on the windward side and flip it back upright with a boat hook.  and we're still married.

      A RIB without a motor was probably possible to salvage.  A RIB with a 88 lb. outboard, no way.

      If you have an outboard that is a major PITA to pull up to the rail, you're going to leave on the dinghy when you don't expect trouble.  And that's when trouble happens.

      Why do you need a 10 hp motor for a dinghy that is used so infrequently that the "gas goes bad."

      Incidentally, "gas goes bad" is more often that not water absorbed by ethanol precipitating out, forming a tiny water ball blocking the carburetor jet.   This can -- and has been -- designed around by modern outboards.  This may be an excuse for new engine (anyone want a Johnson 3hp that doesn't start?), but it isn't a reason to go to propane.  The Johnson took about a half hour of work to expose the carburetor.  My current Mercury 6 hp has the carburetor sitting fully exposed on a little pedestal.

      On 2/25/2013 12:14 PM, mhrutstein wrote:
       

      That's a good point, and it reinforces the idea that there is no one perfect dinghy. Some are great for coastal-cruising boats and some are good for ocean-crossing boats; some make good tenders for a 30-footer and others for a 40-footer. No one dinghy is going to meet all these needs.

      I feel that unless I am crossing oceans, I can pick my weather, and as long as I get the engine and fuel tank out I am going to be able to tow a RIB in most conditions. Last Monday I sailed 30 miles from Anguilla to St. Barts in 20-25 knots of wind and seas 6-8 feet with some occasional whoppers thrown in. With the engine safely mounted on my stern rail and the fuel tank secured in my cockpit, our nine-foot Tui RIB skated happily behind us all the way.

      Mike
      STBNL


    • Janice Kowalke
      From my expierence with fuel that seems to have water/moisture that affects any engine, I have found this product to as close to a miracle cure as I have
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 26, 2013
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        From my expierence with fuel that seems to have water/moisture that affects any engine, I have found this product to as close to a miracle cure as I have found.  I have recommended it to multiple friends for gas and diesel (different products) and they all have found it to have resolved most of their fuel related issues.
         
        One friend spent approx. $800 on repairs to a 2004 vintage Honda 90 four stroke to resolve hard to start and rough idling, which did not significantly improve the situation.  After using the product as directed and then as a maintenance additive, they no longer have any issues.  This friend is a "I won't believe it until I prove it" type and now recommends this product to all.
         
         
         
        This is my opinion based on my results.  I don't want to start any fuel additive war.
         
        Jan
        From: Jim Starkey <jim@...>
        To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:35 PM
        Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
         
        Case in point:  Last summer we were heading east.  The wind, mostly unforecast, was honking out of the SE at 25 knots apparent and 6-8 foot following seas.  We were towing a 9' Avon with a high pressure flow.  The motor was on the rail and everything in the dinghy was tied down.  Off Cape Porpoise, the dinghy painter parted.  Bummer.  We were able come up to it on the windward side and flip it back upright with a boat hook.  and we're still married. A RIB without a motor was probably possible to salvage.  A RIB with a 88 lb. outboard, no way. If you have an outboard that is a major PITA to pull up to the rail, you're going to leave on the dinghy when you don't expect trouble.  And that's when trouble happens. Why do you need a 10 hp motor for a dinghy that is used so infrequently that the "gas goes bad." Incidentally, "gas goes bad" is more often that not water absorbed by ethanol precipitating out, forming a tiny water ball blocking the carburetor jet.   This can -- and has been -- designed around by modern outboards.  This may be an excuse for new engine (anyone want a Johnson 3hp that doesn't start?), but it isn't a reason to go to propane.  The Johnson took about a half hour of work to expose the carburetor.  My current Mercury 6 hp has the carburetor sitting fully exposed on a little pedestal.
        On 2/25/2013 12:14 PM, mhrutstein wrote:
         
        That's a good point, and it reinforces the idea that there is no one perfect dinghy. Some are great for coastal-cruising boats and some are good for ocean-crossing boats; some make good tenders for a 30-footer and others for a 40-footer. No one dinghy is going to meet all these needs.

        I feel that unless I am crossing oceans, I can pick my weather, and as long as I get the engine and fuel tank out I am going to be able to tow a RIB in most conditions. Last Monday I sailed 30 miles from Anguilla to St. Barts in 20-25 knots of wind and seas 6-8 feet with some occasional whoppers thrown in. With the engine safely mounted on my stern rail and the fuel tank secured in my cockpit, our nine-foot Tui RIB skated happily behind us all the way.

        Mike
        STBNL

      • Charles Sidwa
        My powerboat mechanic said to me if you pour K100-MG in a tank of p..s it will burn fine, a bit of exaggeration but it sure does work great. My old, dare I
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 26, 2013
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          My powerboat mechanic said to me if you pour K100-MG in a tank of p..s it will burn fine, a bit of exaggeration but it sure does work great.  My old, dare I say, hard starting 2 stroke jet ski starts right up like it's not 13 years old.  I swear by this for gas applications.  Do get the marine version as it has more water removing additive in it.
           
          Charlie
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:35 AM
          Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

           

          From my expierence with fuel that seems to have water/moisture that affects any engine, I have found this product to as close to a miracle cure as I have found.  I have recommended it to multiple friends for gas and diesel (different products) and they all have found it to have resolved most of their fuel related issues.
           
          One friend spent approx. $800 on repairs to a 2004 vintage Honda 90 four stroke to resolve hard to start and rough idling, which did not significantly improve the situation.  After using the product as directed and then as a maintenance additive, they no longer have any issues.  This friend is a "I won't believe it until I prove it" type and now recommends this product to all.
           
           
           
          This is my opinion based on my results.  I don't want to start any fuel additive war.
           
          Jan
          From: Jim Starkey <jim@...>
          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:35 PM
          Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
           
          Case in point:  Last summer we were heading east.  The wind, mostly unforecast, was honking out of the SE at 25 knots apparent and 6-8 foot following seas.  We were towing a 9' Avon with a high pressure flow.  The motor was on the rail and everything in the dinghy was tied down.  Off Cape Porpoise, the dinghy painter parted.  Bummer.  We were able come up to it on the windward side and flip it back upright with a boat hook.  and we're still married. A RIB without a motor was probably possible to salvage.  A RIB with a 88 lb. outboard, no way. If you have an outboard that is a major PITA to pull up to the rail, you're going to leave on the dinghy when you don't expect trouble.  And that's when trouble happens. Why do you need a 10 hp motor for a dinghy that is used so infrequently that the "gas goes bad." Incidentally, "gas goes bad" is more often that not water absorbed by ethanol precipitating out, forming a tiny water ball blocking the carburetor jet.   This can -- and has been -- designed around by modern outboards.  This may be an excuse for new engine (anyone want a Johnson 3hp that doesn't start?), but it isn't a reason to go to propane.  The Johnson took about a half hour of work to expose the carburetor.  My current Mercury 6 hp has the carburetor sitting fully exposed on a little pedestal. On 2/25/2013 12:14 PM, mhrutstein wrote:
           
          That's a good point, and it reinforces the idea that there is no one perfect dinghy. Some are great for coastal-cruising boats and some are good for ocean-crossing boats; some make good tenders for a 30-footer and others for a 40-footer. No one dinghy is going to meet all these needs.

          I feel that unless I am crossing oceans, I can pick my weather, and as long as I get the engine and fuel tank out I am going to be able to tow a RIB in most conditions. Last Monday I sailed 30 miles from Anguilla to St. Barts in 20-25 knots of wind and seas 6-8 feet with some occasional whoppers thrown in. With the engine safely mounted on my stern rail and the fuel tank secured in my cockpit, our nine-foot Tui RIB skated happily behind us all the way.

          Mike
          STBNL

        • Bennett Kaufman
          One recommendation, which may have come from this forum. is to stop by your local private aviation airport and pick up aviation gas--it does not contain
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 26, 2013
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            One recommendation, which may have come from this forum. is to stop by your local private aviation airport and pick up aviation gas--it does not contain alcohol, and is therefore free from the water-retaining issues of gas from the gas-station pump. It also seems to have a longer "shelf life" (i.e., doesn't go "bad" over a season). Yes, it costs more than gas-station fuel, but it's a lot cheaper than an engine or carburetor overhaul, and does not degrade the rubber hoses. I've used it in in my 2-stroke (horrors!) Nissan 5 HP for several seasons, and my outboard mechanic always comments on how clean the carb, etc. look.
             
            ben kaufman, CARACOL (S36 #52)

            --- On Tue, 2/26/13, Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...> wrote:

            From: Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...>
            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 8:46 AM

             
            
            My powerboat mechanic said to me if you pour K100-MG in a tank of p..s it will burn fine, a bit of exaggeration but it sure does work great.  My old, dare I say, hard starting 2 stroke jet ski starts right up like it's not 13 years old.  I swear by this for gas applications.  Do get the marine version as it has more water removing additive in it.
             
            Charlie
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:35 AM
            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

             
            From my expierence with fuel that seems to have water/moisture that affects any engine, I have found this product to as close to a miracle cure as I have found.  I have recommended it to multiple friends for gas and diesel (different products) and they all have found it to have resolved most of their fuel related issues.
             
            One friend spent approx. $800 on repairs to a 2004 vintage Honda 90 four stroke to resolve hard to start and rough idling, which did not significantly improve the situation.  After using the product as directed and then as a maintenance additive, they no longer have any issues.  This friend is a "I won't believe it until I prove it" type and now recommends this product to all.
             
             
             
            This is my opinion based on my results.  I don't want to start any fuel additive war.
             
            Jan
            From: Jim Starkey <jim@...>
            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:35 PM
            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
             
            Case in point:  Last summer we were heading east.  The wind, mostly unforecast, was honking out of the SE at 25 knots apparent and 6-8 foot following seas.  We were towing a 9' Avon with a high pressure flow.  The motor was on the rail and everything in the dinghy was tied down.  Off Cape Porpoise, the dinghy painter parted.  Bummer.  We were able come up to it on the windward side and flip it back upright with a boat hook.  and we're still married. A RIB without a motor was probably possible to salvage.  A RIB with a 88 lb. outboard, no way. If you have an outboard that is a major PITA to pull up to the rail, you're going to leave on the dinghy when you don't expect trouble.  And that's when trouble happens. Why do you need a 10 hp motor for a dinghy that is used so infrequently that the "gas goes bad." Incidentally, "gas goes bad" is more often that not water absorbed by ethanol precipitating out, forming a tiny water ball blocking the carburetor jet.   This can -- and has been -- designed around by modern outboards.  This may be an excuse for new engine (anyone want a Johnson 3hp that doesn't start?), but it isn't a reason to go to propane.  The Johnson took about a half hour of work to expose the carburetor.  My current Mercury 6 hp has the carburetor sitting fully exposed on a little pedestal. On 2/25/2013 12:14 PM, mhrutstein wrote:
             
            That's a good point, and it reinforces the idea that there is no one perfect dinghy. Some are great for coastal-cruising boats and some are good for ocean-crossing boats; some make good tenders for a 30-footer and others for a 40-footer. No one dinghy is going to meet all these needs.

            I feel that unless I am crossing oceans, I can pick my weather, and as long as I get the engine and fuel tank out I am going to be able to tow a RIB in most conditions. Last Monday I sailed 30 miles from Anguilla to St. Barts in 20-25 knots of wind and seas 6-8 feet with some occasional whoppers thrown in. With the engine safely mounted on my stern rail and the fuel tank secured in my cockpit, our nine-foot Tui RIB skated happily behind us all the way.

            Mike
            STBNL

          • Charles Sidwa
            The local marinas in upstate NY seem to be able to get alcohol free gas. There is even a gas station in Watertown that sells alcohol free high test. I don t
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 26, 2013
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              The local marinas in upstate NY seem to be able to get alcohol free gas.  There is even a gas station in Watertown that sells alcohol free high test.  I don't know how they do this but I use it in all my low usage applications, along with K100-MG.
               
              Charlie
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:02 AM
              Subject: [SabreSailboat] Outboard fuel and additives

               

              One recommendation, which may have come from this forum. is to stop by your local private aviation airport and pick up aviation gas--it does not contain alcohol, and is therefore free from the water-retaining issues of gas from the gas-station pump. It also seems to have a longer "shelf life" (i.e., doesn't go "bad" over a season). Yes, it costs more than gas-station fuel, but it's a lot cheaper than an engine or carburetor overhaul, and does not degrade the rubber hoses. I've used it in in my 2-stroke (horrors!) Nissan 5 HP for several seasons, and my outboard mechanic always comments on how clean the carb, etc. look.
               
              ben kaufman, CARACOL (S36 #52)

              --- On Tue, 2/26/13, Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...> wrote:

              From: Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...>
              Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
              To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 8:46 AM

               
              
              My powerboat mechanic said to me if you pour K100-MG in a tank of p..s it will burn fine, a bit of exaggeration but it sure does work great.  My old, dare I say, hard starting 2 stroke jet ski starts right up like it's not 13 years old.  I swear by this for gas applications.  Do get the marine version as it has more water removing additive in it.
               
              Charlie
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

               
              From my expierence with fuel that seems to have water/moisture that affects any engine, I have found this product to as close to a miracle cure as I have found.  I have recommended it to multiple friends for gas and diesel (different products) and they all have found it to have resolved most of their fuel related issues.
               
              One friend spent approx. $800 on repairs to a 2004 vintage Honda 90 four stroke to resolve hard to start and rough idling, which did not significantly improve the situation.  After using the product as directed and then as a maintenance additive, they no longer have any issues.  This friend is a "I won't believe it until I prove it" type and now recommends this product to all.
               
               
               
              This is my opinion based on my results.  I don't want to start any fuel additive war.
               
              Jan
              From: Jim Starkey <jim@...>
              To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:35 PM
              Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
               
              Case in point:  Last summer we were heading east.  The wind, mostly unforecast, was honking out of the SE at 25 knots apparent and 6-8 foot following seas.  We were towing a 9' Avon with a high pressure flow.  The motor was on the rail and everything in the dinghy was tied down.  Off Cape Porpoise, the dinghy painter parted.  Bummer.  We were able come up to it on the windward side and flip it back upright with a boat hook.  and we're still married. A RIB without a motor was probably possible to salvage.  A RIB with a 88 lb. outboard, no way. If you have an outboard that is a major PITA to pull up to the rail, you're going to leave on the dinghy when you don't expect trouble.  And that's when trouble happens. Why do you need a 10 hp motor for a dinghy that is used so infrequently that the "gas goes bad." Incidentally, "gas goes bad" is more often that not water absorbed by ethanol precipitating out, forming a tiny water ball blocking the carburetor jet.   This can -- and has been -- designed around by modern outboards.  This may be an excuse for new engine (anyone want a Johnson 3hp that doesn't start?), but it isn't a reason to go to propane.  The Johnson took about a half hour of work to expose the carburetor.  My current Mercury 6 hp has the carburetor sitting fully exposed on a little pedestal. On 2/25/2013 12:14 PM, mhrutstein wrote:
               
              That's a good point, and it reinforces the idea that there is no one perfect dinghy. Some are great for coastal-cruising boats and some are good for ocean-crossing boats; some make good tenders for a 30-footer and others for a 40-footer. No one dinghy is going to meet all these needs.

              I feel that unless I am crossing oceans, I can pick my weather, and as long as I get the engine and fuel tank out I am going to be able to tow a RIB in most conditions. Last Monday I sailed 30 miles from Anguilla to St. Barts in 20-25 knots of wind and seas 6-8 feet with some occasional whoppers thrown in. With the engine safely mounted on my stern rail and the fuel tank secured in my cockpit, our nine-foot Tui RIB skated happily behind us all the way.

              Mike
              STBNL

            • Jim Starkey
              You should be aware that this is illegal. Aviation (100LL -- low lead) is lower in lead than the interior of a lead-acid battery, but just so. It is low lead
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 26, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                You should be aware that this is illegal.  Aviation (100LL -- low lead) is lower in lead than the interior of a lead-acid battery, but just so.  It is low lead only in comparison to aviation fuels that preceded it.  It is also prone to fouling plugs, even with plugs designed for it and scavenging procedures during engine shutdown.  Leaded fuel is legal only in aircraft.

                There are two other good reasons not to do this.  Until another general aviation fuel is certificated and existing engines are approved for a new fuel (we're talking a decade here), 90+% of general aviation piston aircraft depend on the availability of 100LL.  If the EPA were to detect significant leakage from GA to other uses, their margin tolerance of 100LL for aviation use might break.

                The other reason is it's around $6.50 a gallon.


                On 2/26/13 9:02 AM, Bennett Kaufman wrote:
                 

                One recommendation, which may have come from this forum. is to stop by your local private aviation airport and pick up aviation gas--it does not contain alcohol, and is therefore free from the water-retaining issues of gas from the gas-station pump. It also seems to have a longer "shelf life" (i.e., doesn't go "bad" over a season). Yes, it costs more than gas-station fuel, but it's a lot cheaper than an engine or carburetor overhaul, and does not degrade the rubber hoses. I've used it in in my 2-stroke (horrors!) Nissan 5 HP for several seasons, and my outboard mechanic always comments on how clean the carb, etc. look.
                 
                ben kaufman, CARACOL (S36 #52)

                --- On Tue, 2/26/13, Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...> wrote:

                From: Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...>
                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
                To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 8:46 AM

                 
                
                My powerboat mechanic said to me if you pour K100-MG in a tank of p..s it will burn fine, a bit of exaggeration but it sure does work great.  My old, dare I say, hard starting 2 stroke jet ski starts right up like it's not 13 years old.  I swear by this for gas applications.  Do get the marine version as it has more water removing additive in it.
                 
                Charlie
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:35 AM
                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

                 
                From my expierence with fuel that seems to have water/moisture that affects any engine, I have found this product to as close to a miracle cure as I have found.  I have recommended it to multiple friends for gas and diesel (different products) and they all have found it to have resolved most of their fuel related issues.
                 
                One friend spent approx. $800 on repairs to a 2004 vintage Honda 90 four stroke to resolve hard to start and rough idling, which did not significantly improve the situation.  After using the product as directed and then as a maintenance additive, they no longer have any issues.  This friend is a "I won't believe it until I prove it" type and now recommends this product to all.
                 
                 
                 
                This is my opinion based on my results.  I don't want to start any fuel additive war.
                 
                Jan
                From: Jim Starkey <jim@...>
                To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:35 PM
                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
                 
                Case in point:  Last summer we were heading east.  The wind, mostly unforecast, was honking out of the SE at 25 knots apparent and 6-8 foot following seas.  We were towing a 9' Avon with a high pressure flow.  The motor was on the rail and everything in the dinghy was tied down.  Off Cape Porpoise, the dinghy painter parted.  Bummer.  We were able come up to it on the windward side and flip it back upright with a boat hook.  and we're still married. A RIB without a motor was probably possible to salvage.  A RIB with a 88 lb. outboard, no way. If you have an outboard that is a major PITA to pull up to the rail, you're going to leave on the dinghy when you don't expect trouble.  And that's when trouble happens. Why do you need a 10 hp motor for a dinghy that is used so infrequently that the "gas goes bad." Incidentally, "gas goes bad" is more often that not water absorbed by ethanol precipitating out, forming a tiny water ball blocking the carburetor jet.   This can -- and has been -- designed around by modern outboards.  This may be an excuse for new engine (anyone want a Johnson 3hp that doesn't start?), but it isn't a reason to go to propane.  The Johnson took about a half hour of work to expose the carburetor.  My current Mercury 6 hp has the carburetor sitting fully exposed on a little pedestal. On 2/25/2013 12:14 PM, mhrutstein wrote:
                 
                That's a good point, and it reinforces the idea that there is no one perfect dinghy. Some are great for coastal-cruising boats and some are good for ocean-crossing boats; some make good tenders for a 30-footer and others for a 40-footer. No one dinghy is going to meet all these needs.

                I feel that unless I am crossing oceans, I can pick my weather, and as long as I get the engine and fuel tank out I am going to be able to tow a RIB in most conditions. Last Monday I sailed 30 miles from Anguilla to St. Barts in 20-25 knots of wind and seas 6-8 feet with some occasional whoppers thrown in. With the engine safely mounted on my stern rail and the fuel tank secured in my cockpit, our nine-foot Tui RIB skated happily behind us all the way.

                Mike
                STBNL


              • Jim Starkey
                Gasoline is shipped from the refinery sans alcohol. The alcohol is added further down the delivery chain. If you can find it, get it. A modest number of GA
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 26, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Gasoline is shipped from the refinery sans alcohol.  The alcohol is added further down the delivery chain.  If you can find it, get it.

                  A modest number of GA aircraft have gotten approval for "mogas", but only has without alcohol.  If you hang for a bit at your local airport on a nice Saturday afternoon and ask around, you should be able to identify a source.

                  Aviation fuel on airplane lists is what varnish is to the Sabre list.


                  On 2/26/13 9:07 AM, Charles Sidwa wrote:
                   

                  

                  The local marinas in upstate NY seem to be able to get alcohol free gas.  There is even a gas station in Watertown that sells alcohol free high test.  I don't know how they do this but I use it in all my low usage applications, along with K100-MG.
                   
                  Charlie
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:02 AM
                  Subject: [SabreSailboat] Outboard fuel and additives

                   
                  One recommendation, which may have come from this forum. is to stop by your local private aviation airport and pick up aviation gas--it does not contain alcohol, and is therefore free from the water-retaining issues of gas from the gas-station pump. It also seems to have a longer "shelf life" (i.e., doesn't go "bad" over a season). Yes, it costs more than gas-station fuel, but it's a lot cheaper than an engine or carburetor overhaul, and does not degrade the rubber hoses. I've used it in in my 2-stroke (horrors!) Nissan 5 HP for several seasons, and my outboard mechanic always comments on how clean the carb, etc. look.
                   
                  ben kaufman, CARACOL (S36 #52)

                  --- On Tue, 2/26/13, Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...> wrote:

                  From: Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
                  To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 8:46 AM

                   
                  
                  My powerboat mechanic said to me if you pour K100-MG in a tank of p..s it will burn fine, a bit of exaggeration but it sure does work great.  My old, dare I say, hard starting 2 stroke jet ski starts right up like it's not 13 years old.  I swear by this for gas applications.  Do get the marine version as it has more water removing additive in it.
                   
                  Charlie
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:35 AM
                  Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

                   
                  From my expierence with fuel that seems to have water/moisture that affects any engine, I have found this product to as close to a miracle cure as I have found.  I have recommended it to multiple friends for gas and diesel (different products) and they all have found it to have resolved most of their fuel related issues.
                   
                  One friend spent approx. $800 on repairs to a 2004 vintage Honda 90 four stroke to resolve hard to start and rough idling, which did not significantly improve the situation.  After using the product as directed and then as a maintenance additive, they no longer have any issues.  This friend is a "I won't believe it until I prove it" type and now recommends this product to all.
                   
                   
                   
                  This is my opinion based on my results.  I don't want to start any fuel additive war.
                   
                  Jan
                  From: Jim Starkey <jim@...>
                  To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:35 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
                   
                  Case in point:  Last summer we were heading east.  The wind, mostly unforecast, was honking out of the SE at 25 knots apparent and 6-8 foot following seas.  We were towing a 9' Avon with a high pressure flow.  The motor was on the rail and everything in the dinghy was tied down.  Off Cape Porpoise, the dinghy painter parted.  Bummer.  We were able come up to it on the windward side and flip it back upright with a boat hook.  and we're still married. A RIB without a motor was probably possible to salvage.  A RIB with a 88 lb. outboard, no way. If you have an outboard that is a major PITA to pull up to the rail, you're going to leave on the dinghy when you don't expect trouble.  And that's when trouble happens. Why do you need a 10 hp motor for a dinghy that is used so infrequently that the "gas goes bad." Incidentally, "gas goes bad" is more often that not water absorbed by ethanol precipitating out, forming a tiny water ball blocking the carburetor jet.   This can -- and has been -- designed around by modern outboards.  This may be an excuse for new engine (anyone want a Johnson 3hp that doesn't start?), but it isn't a reason to go to propane.  The Johnson took about a half hour of work to expose the carburetor.  My current Mercury 6 hp has the carburetor sitting fully exposed on a little pedestal. On 2/25/2013 12:14 PM, mhrutstein wrote:
                   
                  That's a good point, and it reinforces the idea that there is no one perfect dinghy. Some are great for coastal-cruising boats and some are good for ocean-crossing boats; some make good tenders for a 30-footer and others for a 40-footer. No one dinghy is going to meet all these needs.

                  I feel that unless I am crossing oceans, I can pick my weather, and as long as I get the engine and fuel tank out I am going to be able to tow a RIB in most conditions. Last Monday I sailed 30 miles from Anguilla to St. Barts in 20-25 knots of wind and seas 6-8 feet with some occasional whoppers thrown in. With the engine safely mounted on my stern rail and the fuel tank secured in my cockpit, our nine-foot Tui RIB skated happily behind us all the way.

                  Mike
                  STBNL


                • sailor11767
                  Ben, Freeway, or Lee? I m thinking of it for lawnmowers, weed wackers, chain saws, and other lightly used household engines. Harry
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 26, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ben,

                    Freeway, or Lee? I'm thinking of it for lawnmowers, weed wackers, chain saws, and other lightly used household engines.

                    Harry

                    --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Bennett Kaufman <kaufmanb@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > One recommendation, which may have come from this forum. is to stop by your local private aviation airport and pick up aviation gas--it does not contain alcohol, and is therefore free from the water-retaining issues of gas from the gas-station pump. It also seems to have a longer "shelf life" (i.e., doesn't go "bad" over a season). Yes, it costs more than gas-station fuel, but it's a lot cheaper than an engine or carburetor overhaul, and does not degrade the rubber hoses. I've used it in in my 2-stroke (horrors!) Nissan 5 HP for several seasons, and my outboard mechanic always comments on how clean the carb, etc. look.
                    >  
                    > ben kaufman, CARACOL (S36 #52)
                    >
                    > --- On Tue, 2/26/13, Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
                    > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 8:46 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > 
                    >
                    > My powerboat mechanic said to me if you pour K100-MG in a tank of p..s it will burn fine, a bit of exaggeration but it sure does work great.  My old, dare I say, hard starting 2 stroke jet ski starts right up like it's not 13 years old.  I swear by this for gas applications.  Do get the marine version as it has more water removing additive in it.
                    >  
                    > Charlie
                    >  
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    >
                    > From: Janice Kowalke
                    > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:35 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From my expierence with fuel that seems to have water/moisture that affects any engine, I have found this product to as close to a miracle cure as I have found.  I have recommended it to multiple friends for gas and diesel (different products) and they all have found it to have resolved most of their fuel related issues.
                    >  
                    > One friend spent approx. $800 on repairs to a 2004 vintage Honda 90 four stroke to resolve hard to start and rough idling, which did not significantly improve the situation.  After using the product as directed and then as a maintenance additive, they no longer have any issues.  This friend is a "I won't believe it until I prove it" type and now recommends this product to all.
                    >  
                    > http://www.k100fueltreatment.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=K100G&Store_Code=KFTO
                    >  
                    >  
                    > This is my opinion based on my results.  I don't want to start any fuel additive war.
                    >  
                    > Jan
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Jim Starkey <jim@...>
                    > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:35 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    > Case in point:  Last summer we were heading east.  The wind, mostly unforecast, was honking out of the SE at 25 knots apparent and 6-8 foot following seas.  We were towing a 9' Avon with a high pressure flow.  The motor was on the rail and everything in the dinghy was tied down.  Off Cape Porpoise, the dinghy painter parted.  Bummer.  We were able come up to it on the windward side and flip it back upright with a boat hook.  and we're still married. A RIB without a motor was probably possible to salvage.  A RIB with a 88 lb. outboard, no way. If you have an outboard that is a major PITA to pull up to the rail, you're going to leave on the dinghy when you don't expect trouble.  And that's when trouble happens. Why do you need a 10 hp motor for a dinghy that is used so infrequently that the "gas goes bad." Incidentally, "gas goes bad" is more often that not water absorbed by ethanol precipitating out, forming a tiny water ball blocking the
                    > carburetor jet.   This can -- and has been -- designed around by modern outboards.  This may be an excuse for new engine (anyone want a Johnson 3hp that doesn't start?), but it isn't a reason to go to propane.  The Johnson took about a half hour of work to expose the carburetor.  My current Mercury 6 hp has the carburetor sitting fully exposed on a little pedestal. On 2/25/2013 12:14 PM, mhrutstein wrote:
                    >  
                    >
                    > That's a good point, and it reinforces the idea that there is no one perfect dinghy. Some are great for coastal-cruising boats and some are good for ocean-crossing boats; some make good tenders for a 30-footer and others for a 40-footer. No one dinghy is going to meet all these needs.
                    >
                    > I feel that unless I am crossing oceans, I can pick my weather, and as long as I get the engine and fuel tank out I am going to be able to tow a RIB in most conditions. Last Monday I sailed 30 miles from Anguilla to St. Barts in 20-25 knots of wind and seas 6-8 feet with some occasional whoppers thrown in. With the engine safely mounted on my stern rail and the fuel tank secured in my cockpit, our nine-foot Tui RIB skated happily behind us all the way.
                    >
                    > Mike
                    > STBNL
                    >
                  • sailor11767
                    The alternative, around here, is around $6/quart, sold at the local farm supply place! Or, according to Pure-Gas.Com, the nearest road station is in Easton, or
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 26, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The alternative, around here, is around $6/quart, sold at the local farm supply place!

                      Or, according to Pure-Gas.Com, the nearest road station is in Easton, or 50 miles from here.

                      Harry

                      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jim@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > The other reason is it's around $6.50 a gallon.
                      >
                    • Bennett Kaufman
                      The airport in/near Edgewater...Lee, I think it is.   ben kaufman ... From: sailor11767 Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Outboard fuel and
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 26, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The airport in/near Edgewater...Lee, I think it is.
                         
                        ben kaufman

                        --- On Tue, 2/26/13, sailor11767 <sailor11767@...> wrote:

                        From: sailor11767 <sailor11767@...>
                        Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Outboard fuel and additives
                        To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 6:02 PM

                         
                        Ben,

                        Freeway, or Lee? I'm thinking of it for lawnmowers, weed wackers, chain saws, and other lightly used household engines.

                        Harry

                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Bennett Kaufman wrote:
                        >
                        > One recommendation, which may have come from this forum. is to stop by your local private aviation airport and pick up aviation gas--it does not contain alcohol, and is therefore free from the water-retaining issues of gas from the gas-station pump. It also seems to have a longer "shelf life" (i.e., doesn't go "bad" over a season). Yes, it costs more than gas-station fuel, but it's a lot cheaper than an engine or carburetor overhaul, and does not degrade the rubber hoses. I've used it in in my 2-stroke (horrors!) Nissan 5 HP for several seasons, and my outboard mechanic always comments on how clean the carb, etc. look.
                        >  
                        > ben kaufman, CARACOL (S36 #52)
                        >
                        > --- On Tue, 2/26/13, Charles Sidwa wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > From: Charles Sidwa
                        > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
                        > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 8:46 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 
                        >
                        > My powerboat mechanic said to me if you pour K100-MG in a tank of p..s it will burn fine, a bit of exaggeration but it sure does work great.  My old, dare I say, hard starting 2 stroke jet ski starts right up like it's not 13 years old.  I swear by this for gas applications.  Do get the marine version as it has more water removing additive in it.
                        >  
                        > Charlie
                        >  
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        >
                        > From: Janice Kowalke
                        > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:35 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From my expierence with fuel that seems to have water/moisture that affects any engine, I have found this product to as close to a miracle cure as I have found.  I have recommended it to multiple friends for gas and diesel (different products) and they all have found it to have resolved most of their fuel related issues.
                        >  
                        > One friend spent approx. $800 on repairs to a 2004 vintage Honda 90 four stroke to resolve hard to start and rough idling, which did not significantly improve the situation.  After using the product as directed and then as a maintenance additive, they no longer have any issues.  This friend is a "I won't believe it until I prove it" type and now recommends this product to all.
                        >  
                        > http://www.k100fueltreatment.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=K100G&Store_Code=KFTO
                        >  
                        >  
                        > This is my opinion based on my results.  I don't want to start any fuel additive war.
                        >  
                        > Jan
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: Jim Starkey
                        > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:35 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > Case in point:  Last summer we were heading east.  The wind, mostly unforecast, was honking out of the SE at 25 knots apparent and 6-8 foot following seas.  We were towing a 9' Avon with a high pressure flow.  The motor was on the rail and everything in the dinghy was tied down.  Off Cape Porpoise, the dinghy painter parted.  Bummer.  We were able come up to it on the windward side and flip it back upright with a boat hook.  and we're still married. A RIB without a motor was probably possible to salvage.  A RIB with a 88 lb. outboard, no way. If you have an outboard that is a major PITA to pull up to the rail, you're going to leave on the dinghy when you don't expect trouble.  And that's when trouble happens. Why do you need a 10 hp motor for a dinghy that is used so infrequently that the "gas goes bad." Incidentally, "gas goes bad" is more often that not water absorbed by ethanol precipitating out, forming a tiny water ball blocking the
                        > carburetor jet.   This can -- and has been -- designed around by modern outboards.  This may be an excuse for new engine (anyone want a Johnson 3hp that doesn't start?), but it isn't a reason to go to propane.  The Johnson took about a half hour of work to expose the carburetor.  My current Mercury 6 hp has the carburetor sitting fully exposed on a little pedestal. On 2/25/2013 12:14 PM, mhrutstein wrote:
                        >  
                        >
                        > That's a good point, and it reinforces the idea that there is no one perfect dinghy. Some are great for coastal-cruising boats and some are good for ocean-crossing boats; some make good tenders for a 30-footer and others for a 40-footer. No one dinghy is going to meet all these needs.
                        >
                        > I feel that unless I am crossing oceans, I can pick my weather, and as long as I get the engine and fuel tank out I am going to be able to tow a RIB in most conditions. Last Monday I sailed 30 miles from Anguilla to St. Barts in 20-25 knots of wind and seas 6-8 feet with some occasional whoppers thrown in. With the engine safely mounted on my stern rail and the fuel tank secured in my cockpit, our nine-foot Tui RIB skated happily behind us all the way.
                        >
                        > Mike
                        > STBNL
                        >

                      • Bennett Kaufman
                        I haven t bought avgas in a while, so I can t give you any idea about the price. Last time I got any (last Spring), it was about $1.00/gallon more than
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 26, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I haven't bought avgas in a while, so I can't give you any idea about the price. Last time I got any (last Spring), it was about $1.00/gallon more than regular unleaded gasoline at the gas statin nearby.
                           
                          Just don't let Jim Starkey catch you using it....he'll report you to the EPA!
                           
                          ben kaufman
                          --- On Tue, 2/26/13, sailor11767 <sailor11767@...> wrote:

                          From: sailor11767 <sailor11767@...>
                          Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Outboard fuel and additives
                          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 6:05 PM

                           
                          The alternative, around here, is around $6/quart, sold at the local farm supply place!

                          Or, according to Pure-Gas.Com, the nearest road station is in Easton, or 50 miles from here.

                          Harry

                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > The other reason is it's around $6.50 a gallon.
                          >

                        • Jim Starkey
                          Tell you what --- you don t tell the EPA I sold a 22 year old Sabre 36 with a virgin holding tank and I won t report anyone to the EPA for squandering avgas in
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 26, 2013
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                            Tell you what --- you don't tell the EPA I sold a 22 year old Sabre 36 with a virgin holding tank and I won't report anyone to the EPA for squandering avgas in an outboard.  Deal?


                            On 2/26/2013 6:44 PM, Bennett Kaufman wrote:
                             

                            I haven't bought avgas in a while, so I can't give you any idea about the price. Last time I got any (last Spring), it was about $1.00/gallon more than regular unleaded gasoline at the gas statin nearby.
                             
                            Just don't let Jim Starkey catch you using it....he'll report you to the EPA!
                             
                            ben kaufman
                            --- On Tue, 2/26/13, sailor11767 <sailor11767@...> wrote:

                            From: sailor11767 <sailor11767@...>
                            Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Outboard fuel and additives
                            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 6:05 PM

                             
                            The alternative, around here, is around $6/quart, sold at the local farm supply place!

                            Or, according to Pure-Gas.Com, the nearest road station is in Easton, or 50 miles from here.

                            Harry

                            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > The other reason is it's around $6.50 a gallon.
                            >


                          • walkabout193
                            Mike We bought our boat 5 years back, and with three kids decided upon a large RIB. At first we purchased an 8 hp merc OB, but within a week realizing its
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 27, 2013
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                              Mike
                              We bought our boat 5 years back, and with three kids decided upon a large RIB. At first we purchased an 8 hp merc OB, but within a week realizing its weight would be an issue exchanged it for the 6 hp model. With just me and the dog she planes up real nice. After two summers of manhandling the engine on and off the dink we purchased a lift from Kato. Not only well made, it has a one point fastener system allowing us to take it off and on easily. It's a bit pricey but you get what you pay for. We never travel with the OB on the dink. And when we travel offshore the dink goes on the foredeck, upside down, deflated, securely lashed. We use a spare halyard to lift it and its no sweat. The size of our dink on the boe end presents some access difficulties flying the spinnaker as getting around it on the bow is tight. As the kids start to peel away however we plan on downsizing to the smallest RIB on the market.
                              Len Bertaux
                              Walkabout S38mkii

                              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "mhrutstein" <mhrutstein@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I'm in the market for a new dinghy and OB and shopped the boat show today. It was the last day of the how and I thought I might get some good pricing.
                              >
                              > I am looking at RIBs in the 9.5'-10.5' range, which means say $2500 in PVC or $3500 in Hypalon. I was intrigued by the Highfield Classic line of boats which are RIBs with aluminum instead of fiberglass hulls. I was under the impression they were built by Caribe, but their brochure lists an address in China.
                              >
                              > Anyone have experience with these boats?
                              >
                              > The Lehr propane outboards now have a 9.9 HP engine at the top of their line for $2700 and I am VERY interested. We use our dinghy sporadically, the gas goes bad, and I end up cleaning my carburetor. These engines are very clean and of course propane is readily available and doesn;t go bad.
                              >
                              > Any thoughts?
                              >
                              > Mike
                              > Sabre To Be Named Later
                              >
                            • mhrutstein
                              Thanks, Len, I will look for that Kato product!
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 27, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thanks, Len, I will look for that Kato product!
                              • jay4868
                                On the subject of dingy towing I have been using a version of a Dingy Tow mechanism that tows the dingy backwards (motor on)   tethered to the main
                                Message 15 of 29 , Mar 14, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On the subject of dingy towing I have been using a version of a "Dingy Tow" mechanism that tows the dingy backwards (motor on)  
                                  tethered to the main ship stern.  We have been in all kinds of weather and sea conditions without any difficulty at all.  Its the most convenient system I have found although it looks a bit odd.

                                  Joe M
                                  Ceapach S38M1


                                  From: mhrutstein <mhrutstein@...>
                                  To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:32 PM
                                  Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

                                   
                                  That's great to know, Dave. What kind and how big is your dinghy?



                                • Charles Sidwa
                                  Is this what you are using? http://dinghy-tow.com/ Charlie ... From: jay4868@yahoo.com To:
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Mar 14, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    
                                    Is this what you are using?  http://dinghy-tow.com/ 
                                     
                                    Charlie
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 4:05 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

                                     

                                    On the subject of dingy towing I have been using a version of a "Dingy Tow" mechanism that tows the dingy backwards (motor on)  
                                    tethered to the main ship stern.  We have been in all kinds of weather and sea conditions without any difficulty at all.  Its the most convenient system I have found although it looks a bit odd.

                                    Joe M
                                    Ceapach S38M1


                                    From: mhrutstein <mhrutstein@...>
                                    To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:32 PM
                                    Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

                                     
                                    That's great to know, Dave. What kind and how big is your dinghy?



                                  • jay4868
                                    its a home made version of that product ________________________________ From: Charles Sidwa To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Mar 17, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      its a home made version of that product


                                      From: Charles Sidwa <ChasSidwa@...>
                                      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 5:00 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

                                       
                                      
                                      Is this what you are using?  http://dinghy-tow.com/ 
                                       
                                      Charlie
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 4:05 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

                                       
                                      On the subject of dingy towing I have been using a version of a "Dingy Tow" mechanism that tows the dingy backwards (motor on)  
                                      tethered to the main ship stern.  We have been in all kinds of weather and sea conditions without any difficulty at all.  Its the most convenient system I have found although it looks a bit odd.

                                      Joe M
                                      Ceapach S38M1


                                      From: mhrutstein <mhrutstein@...>
                                      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:32 PM
                                      Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Shopping for a RIB and outboard at the the Boston Boat Show

                                       
                                      That's great to know, Dave. What kind and how big is your dinghy?





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