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Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Flax packing width / Dripless boxes

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  • Jim Starkey
    If there was a serious risk with the shaft seal it would be reflected in insurance rates. Has anyone ever been asked by their underwriter about their shop
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 9, 2013
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      If there was a serious risk with the shaft seal it would be reflected in insurance rates.  Has anyone ever been asked by their underwriter about their shop seals?




      On Jan 8, 2013, at 11:45 PM, "Martin" <mnthomas46@...> wrote:

       

      From my experience this might mean a scored shaft. That is one hazard of the stuffing box. We had constant problems with our stuffing box leaking and when we hauled to replace th cutless, we ended up replacing the original badly scored bronze shaft with a stainless one and putting in PYI shaft seal. Very happy with the bone dry bilge. Next haul out in two years it will be time to replace the bellows even though the current one looks pristine.
      I can understand both viewpoints on the issue, and perhaps if our shaft had not been scored it would have been fine with the old stuffing box.

      Cheers,
      Martin

      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > How do you tell when it is time to repack the stuffing box?
      >
      > I have had to adjust my stuffing box 2 to 4 times a year since I have had my boat. The PO told me he had just repacked the stuffing box when I purchased the boat two years ago. I have only tightened the box a flat at a time as recommended by Compass Marine article.
      >
      >
      > Kevin
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Allison Lehman wrote:
      > >
      > > unfortunately too small for what I am looking for, thanks anyway
      > >
      > > Allison
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On Jan 8, 2013, at 10:58 AM, Peter Tollini wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Allison -
      > > > I think the concern is the failure mode for dripless. Conventional boxes start failing slowly as soon as they are placed in service, but unless neglected for years, rarely sink a boat. With real GFO packing, water incursion is negligible. The dripless versions consistently work perfectly for years, but can fail suddenly and catastrophically. A few years ago the USCG investigated the sinking of a new Carolina Classic 28 being delivered. The boat sank not far from the plant with one fatality. The cause was a failed/improperly installed dripless stuffing box.
      > > > One of the people on this list had a scare on their 402 due to a slipped collar.
      > > > As with all things boat, proper installation followed by regular inspection and maintenance reduces risk more than anything else.
      > > > Pete
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Allison Lehman wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Stephen,
      > > >
      > > > How old was the dripless packing gland on the boat that sank? Do you know if it had ever been checked? What exactly failed? Could it have been a loose hose clamp? I ask these questions because many people have been scared off of these thinking they are inherently flawed, and as you eluded to, the cause of failure is usually operator error. In this case, not checked or replaced at recommended intervals.
      > > >
      > > > I say this as a Yacht broker who has been selling new boats with for the last 16 yrs as well as having my own for the last 9 yrs. I have yet to see a failure on any boat with one, with the exception of lack of maintenance (a hose clamp corroded thru and failed) Had the owner looked at the packing gland at least once every 6 months they would have seen this.
      > > >
      > > > I hate to see a good product get trashed due to bad maintenance. In many cases I have seen o lder boats switch out to a dripless system and the boat changed dramatically for the better. First off, no water in the bilge so no smell, no regular cleaning of the bilge, humidity in the boat down so doors fit better, mirrors last longer and upholstery and foam lasts longer. The benefits are huge but one must still maintain the product.
      > > >
      > > > OK, Allison, off the soap box!
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Jan 8, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Stephen wrote:
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >> I would advise against the dripless stuffing box. I have a standard stuffing box on my 34MK2 which was packed 6 or 7 years ago, and has required little adjustment since.
      > > >> I had a client whose Bristol 34 sank when the dripless stuffing box failed. I did a fair amount of research which indicated the dripless boxes have two modes-they work great or the boat suddenly sinks. Sometimes low tech is good! (I think part of the problem is that dripless boxes are seldom maintained properly and their failures tend to be major-traditional stuffing boxes fail progressively, and give you a lot of warning).
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >

    • Peter Tollini
      Kevin - You should slowly tighten the nut until it just stops dripping. Set the locknut and start up the boat, put the transmission in forward (in a slip or
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 9, 2013
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        Kevin -
        You should slowly tighten the nut until it just stops dripping.  Set the locknut and start up the boat, put the transmission in forward (in a slip or at a dock, not on a mooring).  The shaft should drip very slightly, (@ one drop/minute).  Shut it down and feel the box.  It should not be appreciably warm.

        If you can't stop the drip at rest, if it drips excessively when turning, or if you have to choose between dripping and warm, you should repack the box and inspect the shaft.

        I am a big fan of Gore-Tex GFO packing.  It's not that easy to find and there are knockoffs out there. Try e-marine.com

        Also see RC's photo series on stuffing boxes at:

        Pete


        On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Kevin <Khartz86@...> wrote:
         



        How do you tell when it is time to repack the stuffing box?

        I have had to adjust my stuffing box 2 to 4 times a year since I have had my boat. The PO told me he had just repacked the stuffing box when I purchased the boat two years ago. I have only tightened the box a flat at a time as recommended by Compass Marine article.

        Kevin



        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Allison Lehman wrote:
        >
        > unfortunately too small for what I am looking for, thanks anyway
        >
        > Allison
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Jan 8, 2013, at 10:58 AM, Peter Tollini wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > Allison -
        > > I think the concern is the failure mode for dripless. Conventional boxes start failing slowly as soon as they are placed in service, but unless neglected for years, rarely sink a boat. With real GFO packing, water incursion is negligible. The dripless versions consistently work perfectly for years, but can fail suddenly and catastrophically. A few years ago the USCG investigated the sinking of a new Carolina Classic 28 being delivered. The boat sank not far from the plant with one fatality. The cause was a failed/improperly installed dripless stuffing box.
        > > One of the people on this list had a scare on their 402 due to a slipped collar.
        > > As with all things boat, proper installation followed by regular inspection and maintenance reduces risk more than anything else.
        > > Pete
        > >
        > >
        > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Allison Lehman wrote:
        > >
        > > Stephen,
        > >
        > > How old was the dripless packing gland on the boat that sank? Do you know if it had ever been checked? What exactly failed? Could it have been a loose hose clamp? I ask these questions because many people have been scared off of these thinking they are inherently flawed, and as you eluded to, the cause of failure is usually operator error. In this case, not checked or replaced at recommended intervals.
        > >
        > > I say this as a Yacht broker who has been selling new boats with for the last 16 yrs as well as having my own for the last 9 yrs. I have yet to see a failure on any boat with one, with the exception of lack of maintenance (a hose clamp corroded thru and failed) Had the owner looked at the packing gland at least once every 6 months they would have seen this.
        > >
        > > I hate to see a good product get trashed due to bad maintenance. In many cases I have seen o lder boats switch out to a dripless system and the boat changed dramatically for the better. First off, no water in the bilge so no smell, no regular cleaning of the bilge, humidity in the boat down so doors fit better, mirrors last longer and upholstery and foam lasts longer. The benefits are huge but one must still maintain the product.

        > >
        > > OK, Allison, off the soap box!
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Jan 8, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Stephen wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >> I would advise against the dripless stuffing box. I have a standard stuffing box on my 34MK2 which was packed 6 or 7 years ago, and has required little adjustment since.
        > >> I had a client whose Bristol 34 sank when the dripless stuffing box failed. I did a fair amount of research which indicated the dripless boxes have two modes-they work great or the boat suddenly sinks. Sometimes low tech is good! (I think part of the problem is that dripless boxes are seldom maintained properly and their failures tend to be major-traditional stuffing boxes fail progressively, and give you a lot of warning).
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >


      • mhrutstein
        Well... we got a little off topic there, but thanks for all the feedback. I am going to stick with the traditional stuffing box and use the Goretex GFO
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 9, 2013
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          Well... we got a little off topic there, but thanks for all the feedback. I am going to stick with the traditional stuffing box and use the Goretex GFO packing.

          Also, I am going to try a Drivesaver. I am replacing my engine mounts and have to disconnect the coupling anyhow, and I have heard good things.

          Thanks to Dick from Early Light for giving me the heads up on engine mounts.

          Mike
          S38TBNL
        • Jan
          Whoa John, I thought I was the only one to carry duck seal as part of my spares! I ve never come across another sailor who even knows what it is but I ve
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 9, 2013
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            Whoa John,

            I thought I was the only one to carry "duck seal" as part of my spares! I've never come across another sailor who even knows what it is but I've explained why I have it aboard for exacttly your reason!

            Jan S38 MkI (with GFO in the original shaft fitting)

            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski wrote:
            >
            > Allison
            >  
            > A member of my club had a C&C 27 that had the rubber gator tear while sailing.
            > He was doing hull speed from the sound to the club radioing in ahead.
            > By the time he got to the dock, we had a travellift ready for him. Took a couple hours to empty his boat.  He had not changed the gator in 12 years.  PYI suggests 8 years. I do mine every 7.  If the gator tears, the water is pretty impressive.  Same deal as tearing the gator on an IO unit.
            >  
            > I once did not get the s/s collar tight enough after a rebuild and it slid back just a smidgen. Nothing at mooring,but it was to the floorboards in a 2.5 mile motor ( things you never want to hear from the cabin is "is there suppose to be water/smoke down here?").  I have since put a zinc in place so it can never happen again.  PYI now sells a backup collar. A zinc is 1/5th the price and has more surface area.
            >  
            > So there are 2 ways they can leak.
            > I would suggest anyone using them carry a stick of waterproof electrical putty (about $4 at Home Depot). It can be tucked into the prop log tunnel from the outside to stop the leaking in an emergency, though you will not be able to use the motor.
            >  
            > having said that, I love my PYI set up and would not change back.  The new Bennetaus have a bizzare spin on the design for their io where you just pack with grease and no way to replace the gator easily.
            >  
            > john
            >
            > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, Allison Lehman wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Allison Lehman
            > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Flax packing width / Dripless boxes
            > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 1:06 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            > Stephen,
            > How old was the dripless packing gland on the boat that sank?  Do you know if it had ever been checked?  What exactly failed?  Could it have been a loose hose clamp?  I ask these questions because many people have been scared off of these thinking they are inherently  flawed, and as you eluded to, the cause of failure is usually operator error.  In this case,  not checked or replaced at recommended intervals.
            >
            >
            > I say this as a Yacht broker who has been selling new boats with for the last 16 yrs as well as having my own for the last 9 yrs.  I have yet to see a failure on any boat with one, with the exception of lack of maintenance (a hose clamp corroded thru and failed)  Had the owner looked at the packing gland at least once every 6 months they would have seen this.  
            >
            >
            > I hate to see a good product get trashed due to bad maintenance.   In many cases I have seen older boats switch out to a dripless system and the boat changed dramatically for the better.  First off, no water in the bilge so no smell, no regular cleaning of the bilge, humidity in the boat down so doors fit better, mirrors last longer and upholstery and foam lasts longer.  The benefits are huge but one must still maintain the product.
            >
            >
            > OK, Allison, off the soap box!
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Jan 8, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Stephen wrote:
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            > I would advise against the dripless stuffing box. I have a standard stuffing box on my 34MK2 which was packed 6 or 7 years ago, and has required little adjustment since.
            > I had a client whose Bristol 34 sank when the dripless stuffing box failed. I did a fair amount of research which indicated the dripless boxes have two modes-they work great or the boat suddenly sinks. Sometimes low tech is good! (I think part of the problem is that dripless boxes are seldom maintained properly and their failures tend to be major-traditional stuffing boxes fail progressively, and give you a lot of warning).
            >
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