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Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

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  • David Kiernan
    Hi Everyone I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 19, 2012
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    Hi Everyone

    I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.

    Thanks in advance

    David
  • Bob Jenning
    There are many decent Sabre 28 s out there. Bent rudder stock, persoanlly I would run. From: David Kiernan To:
    Message 2 of 26 , Dec 19, 2012
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      There are many decent Sabre 28's out there. Bent rudder stock, persoanlly I would run.

      From: David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...>
      To: "Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com" <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:09 PM
      Subject: [SabreSailboat] Looking at 1975 Sabre 28 [1 Attachment]
       
      Hi Everyone

      I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.

      Thanks in advance

      David
    • andrew johnson
      I d also be concerned about what else hasn t been fixed / maintained. I know I wouldn t leave a bent rudder. Andy S28 #322
      Message 3 of 26 , Dec 19, 2012
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        I'd also be concerned about what else hasn't been fixed / maintained.  I know I wouldn't leave a bent rudder.

        Andy
        S28 #322 

        On Dec 19, 2012, at 6:57 PM, "Bob Jenning" <b.jenning@...> wrote:

         

        There are many decent Sabre 28's out there. Bent rudder stock, persoanlly I would run.

        From: David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...>
        To: "Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com" <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:09 PM
        Subject: [SabreSailboat] Looking at 1975 Sabre 28 [1 Attachment]
         
        Hi Everyone

        I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.

        Thanks in advance

        David

      • Jim Starkey
        Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It s kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without
        Message 4 of 26 , Dec 19, 2012
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          Hmm.  A bent rudder post.  By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel.  It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.

          Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.

          On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
           
          Hi Everyone

          I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.

          Thanks in advance

          David

        • andrew johnson
          I thought the same. I can only imagine it was hard aground when the tide went out and rested on the rudder. I m sure it could be put right. All depends on
          Message 5 of 26 , Dec 19, 2012
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            I thought the same.  I can only imagine it was hard aground when the tide went out and rested on the rudder.  I'm sure it could be put right.  All depends on price, but I would certainly be nervous about what else I'd uncover.

            Sent from my iPad

            On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:29 PM, "Jim Starkey" <jim@...> wrote:

             

            Hmm.  A bent rudder post.  By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel.  It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.

            Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.

            On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
             
            Hi Everyone

            I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.

            Thanks in advance

            David

          • Dave Lochner
            Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I d guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin
            Message 6 of 26 , Dec 19, 2012
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              Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue. 

              The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.

              Dave


              On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:

               

              Hmm.  A bent rudder post.  By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel.  It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.

              Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.

              On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
               
              Hi Everyone

              I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.

              Thanks in advance

              David



            • DKIERNAN10
              I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can t travel quite as far starboard due to the
              Message 7 of 26 , Dec 20, 2012
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                I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can't travel quite as far starboard due to the slight bend in the post. I did look in the bilge as you suggested and the stringers are all solid and dry, and the fiberglass tabs show no cracks and are solid. The teak floor is completely dry and solid at least everywhere I could reach. The bulkheads are dry and solid right down to the floor. The paint in the bilge was all a sort of greenish-blue (petit bikini blue?). The keel and rudder seem to have no visible damage that I can see.

                I have seen in some online research that some people drop the rudder and have a machine shop straighten the post? Does this seem viable?Since other than a few minor issues the boat seems pretty good to me, I would hate to let it go because of a problem that could be solved for perhaps not huge money. The owner has put money into the boat. Quite a few new Atomic 4 parts, new mainsail, 2 new batteries, rebedded all the chain plates. I would appreciate any further feedback. Thanks.

                David
                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                >
                > Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue.
                >
                > The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.
                >
                > Dave
                >
                >
                > On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.
                > >
                > > Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.
                > >
                > > On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
                > >>
                > >> Hi Everyone
                > >>
                > >> I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice. Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat. I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips. I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little. I am attaching a photo of it. The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed. I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject. Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                > >>
                > >> Thanks in advance
                > >>
                > >> David
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Jim Schofield
                Any offer should be made contingent on a survey and sea trial. Jim S. ... From: DKIERNAN10 To:
                Message 8 of 26 , Dec 20, 2012
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                  Any offer should be made contingent on a survey and sea trial.
                   
                  Jim S.
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:49 PM
                  Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                   


                  I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can't travel quite as far starboard due to the slight bend in the post. I did look in the bilge as you suggested and the stringers are all solid and dry, and the fiberglass tabs show no cracks and are solid. The teak floor is completely dry and solid at least everywhere I could reach. The bulkheads are dry and solid right down to the floor. The paint in the bilge was all a sort of greenish-blue (petit bikini blue?). The keel and rudder seem to have no visible damage that I can see.

                  I have seen in some online research that some people drop the rudder and have a machine shop straighten the post? Does this seem viable?Since other than a few minor issues the boat seems pretty good to me, I would hate to let it go because of a problem that could be solved for perhaps not huge money. The owner has put money into the boat. Quite a few new Atomic 4 parts, new mainsail, 2 new batteries, rebedded all the chain plates. I would appreciate any further feedback. Thanks.

                  David
                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue.
                  >
                  > The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  >
                  > On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.
                  > >
                  > > Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.
                  > >
                  > > On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> Hi Everyone
                  > >>
                  > >> I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice. Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat. I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips. I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little. I am attaching a photo of it. The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed. I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject. Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                  > >>
                  > >> Thanks in advance
                  > >>
                  > >> David
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >

                • Greg Rogers
                  I d appreciate any thoughts on what the the contengincies of the survey and sea trial might be. And where to draw the line between acceptable flaws in an older
                  Message 9 of 26 , Dec 20, 2012
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                    I'd appreciate any thoughts on what the the contengincies of the survey and sea trial might be. And where to draw the line between acceptable flaws in an older boat and those that might require remedy or an adjustment in price before sale.
                    Thanks
                    Grey

                    From: Jim Schofield <jschofield1@...>
                    To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:19 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28
                     
                    Any offer should be made contingent on a survey and sea trial.
                     
                    Jim S.
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:49 PM
                    Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                     

                    I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can't travel quite as far starboard due to the slight bend in the post. I did look in the bilge as you suggested and the stringers are all solid and dry, and the fiberglass tabs show no cracks and are solid. The teak floor is completely dry and solid at least everywhere I could reach. The bulkheads are dry and solid right down to the floor. The paint in the bilge was all a sort of greenish-blue (petit bikini blue?). The keel and rudder seem to have no visible damage that I can see.

                    I have seen in some online research that some people drop the rudder and have a machine shop straighten the post? Does this seem viable?Since other than a few minor issues the boat seems pretty good to me, I would hate to let it go because of a problem that could be solved for perhaps not huge money. The owner has put money into the boat. Quite a few new Atomic 4 parts, new mainsail, 2 new batteries, rebedded all the chain plates. I would appreciate any further feedback. Thanks.

                    David
                    --- In mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue.
                    >
                    > The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    >
                    > On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.
                    > >
                    > > Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.
                    > >
                    > > On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> Hi Everyone
                    > >>
                    > >> I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice. Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat. I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips. I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little. I am attaching a photo of it. The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed. I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject. Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                    > >>
                    > >> Thanks in advance
                    > >>
                    > >> David
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >

                  • Jim Starkey
                    Depending on where you are, a sea trial may be problematic if the boat is on the hard. I think the best you can do is to make provision for a sea trial when
                    Message 10 of 26 , Dec 20, 2012
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                      Depending on where you are, a sea trial may be problematic if the boat is on the hard.  I think the best you can do is to make provision for a sea trial when the boat is launched naming a mutually agreeable third party to decide whether a price adjustment is in order or the sale cancelled if something catastrophically wrong is found.

                      That said, you should go into this with the assumption that the A4 is on its last legs.  It may be in fine condition or it might have a head ready to dump coolant into block or a crankshaft ready to break.  Given the age of the engine, it isn't something you will want to rebuild, so plan for the worst and hope for the best.

                      If the cosmetics are good, in all likelihood the boat is sound.  It's hard to cover up serious problems and an own who lets serious problems go probably isn't going to try to cover them up anyway.  Find a surveyor who knows Sabres (this is critical!) and heed his advice.  A decent surveyor will warn you off.  A bad surveyor, and there are plenty, won't do much more than produce the customary paperwork for the insurance company.  So be very, very picky about the surveyor.  This list is a good place to start.

                      But whatever you do, don't fall so in love with a boat that you can't walk away if something turns up.  You can fall in love with it later -- there will be plenty of time and the economy needs a loved boat.

                      Oh, if it has the original W&C Headmate Jr., plan on replacing it with a Raritan PH-II sometime in the foreseeable future.

                      On 12/20/12 5:18 PM, Greg Rogers wrote:
                       
                      I'd appreciate any thoughts on what the the contengincies of the survey and sea trial might be. And where to draw the line between acceptable flaws in an older boat and those that might require remedy or an adjustment in price before sale.
                      Thanks
                      Grey

                      From: Jim Schofield <jschofield1@...>
                      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:19 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28
                       
                      Any offer should be made contingent on a survey and sea trial.
                       
                      Jim S.
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:49 PM
                      Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                       

                      I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can't travel quite as far starboard due to the slight bend in the post. I did look in the bilge as you suggested and the stringers are all solid and dry, and the fiberglass tabs show no cracks and are solid. The teak floor is completely dry and solid at least everywhere I could reach. The bulkheads are dry and solid right down to the floor. The paint in the bilge was all a sort of greenish-blue (petit bikini blue?). The keel and rudder seem to have no visible damage that I can see.

                      I have seen in some online research that some people drop the rudder and have a machine shop straighten the post? Does this seem viable?Since other than a few minor issues the boat seems pretty good to me, I would hate to let it go because of a problem that could be solved for perhaps not huge money. The owner has put money into the boat. Quite a few new Atomic 4 parts, new mainsail, 2 new batteries, rebedded all the chain plates. I would appreciate any further feedback. Thanks.

                      David
                      --- In mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue.
                      >
                      > The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.
                      >
                      > Dave
                      >
                      >
                      > On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.
                      > >
                      > > Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.
                      > >
                      > > On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> Hi Everyone
                      > >>
                      > >> I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice. Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat. I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips. I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little. I am attaching a photo of it. The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed. I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject. Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                      > >>
                      > >> Thanks in advance
                      > >>
                      > >> David
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >


                    • sailor11767
                      Dave, I have perhaps a differing view on this (if you read back far enough in the archives, you ll find that I often do....). Life is gray, and you have to
                      Message 11 of 26 , Dec 20, 2012
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                        Dave,

                        I have perhaps a differing view on this (if you read back far enough in the archives, you'll find that I often do....). Life is gray, and you have to play priorities and compromises. I can see a scenario as follows:

                        The owner has an older boat. He treats it well, and spends money on it -- but it's an older boat. Something happens, and the rudder gets bent. He dives the boat. Funny thing is, nothing else was really damaged. So he finishes the season out. Along the way, he finds that, while "less than perfect" it isn't much worse than many other "less than perfect" aspects of his 30 year old boat. It turns port fine, and starboard isn't that big an issue. So, that winter, instead of dropping $2K in fixing the rudder, he drops $2K on a new sail. Next year, he's glad he made the choice, 'cause the boat looks better, sails faster, and that right turn thing still isn't that big an issue.

                        If you want a perfect boat, buy new. If you can only afford a less than perfect boat, your budget will define the level of blemishes. You probably don't want to sail around the world with that bent rudder. But I'm not sure that a S28 is the right boat for that (although a 40 year old Albin Vega 27 went non-stop around the Americas -- and it was in bad shape when it started the trip!).

                        Me? I'd look long and hard at the rest of the boat, and then I'd go back and look at the rudder carefully. If the boat is generally in good shape (sounds like it is), the rudder with damage is still functional with no serious impending issues (sounds like it is), the price is generally right (sounds like it is), you may have the right level of compromise. Just like the PO, be annoyed by the damage but live with it.

                        As far as binding in one direction, you can adjust the rudder stops to make it "stop" rather than bind.

                        Harry
                        Analysis
                        '79 S34-I #063
                        Mill Creek, Annapolis

                        PS -- I bought a project boat, a purchase that I regret. It was the best boat I could afford (and from a "TOTAL COST" basis it was still a good deal -- just not from a labor (mine) basis). The alternative was "no boat" -- but with the alternative, I would have much more time to sail OPB's. So maybe I'm not the best source of advice.

                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "DKIERNAN10" <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can't travel quite as far starboard due to the slight bend in the post. I did look in the bilge as you suggested and the stringers are all solid and dry, and the fiberglass tabs show no cracks and are solid. The teak floor is completely dry and solid at least everywhere I could reach. The bulkheads are dry and solid right down to the floor. The paint in the bilge was all a sort of greenish-blue (petit bikini blue?). The keel and rudder seem to have no visible damage that I can see.
                        >
                        > I have seen in some online research that some people drop the rudder and have a machine shop straighten the post? Does this seem viable?Since other than a few minor issues the boat seems pretty good to me, I would hate to let it go because of a problem that could be solved for perhaps not huge money. The owner has put money into the boat. Quite a few new Atomic 4 parts, new mainsail, 2 new batteries, rebedded all the chain plates. I would appreciate any further feedback. Thanks.
                        >
                        > David
                        > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue.
                        > >
                        > > The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.
                        > >
                        > > Dave
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.
                        > > >
                        > > > Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.
                        > > >
                        > > > On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Hi Everyone
                        > > >>
                        > > >> I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice. Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat. I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips. I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little. I am attaching a photo of it. The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed. I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject. Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Thanks in advance
                        > > >>
                        > > >> David
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Mark Wallace
                        Greg, Is this the 28 for sale in Portsmouth RI? The description matches. If so I saw it on Craigslist, and it does look nice in the pictures. Regardless,
                        Message 12 of 26 , Dec 20, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Greg,
                          Is this the 28 for sale in Portsmouth RI?  The description matches.  If so I saw it on Craigslist, and it does look nice in the pictures.  Regardless, you will definitely want someone with knowledge to look at that rudder before committing to a purchase.  There is a Hinckley yard in Portsmouth that provides repair services with many knowledgeable guys (including one I bought my 28 from), perhaps you could ask someone there to take a look for short money.  My concern would be the ability of the SS rudder post to be bent back without compromising it's integrity or damaging the rudder in the process.  That rudder post is very heavy gauge SS, and for a bend like that to have occurred would have taken a LOT of force.
                           
                          Beyond that, I can't imagine owning a boat which I put money into and ignoring such a serious issue, which makes me question the present owner's priorities (at least).
                           
                          If there is any question, move on, there are a lot of 28's for sale in this area, esp. come spring time.  Best of luck,
                           
                          Mark
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           


                          On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Greg Rogers <greggo214@...> wrote:
                           

                          I'd appreciate any thoughts on what the the contengincies of the survey and sea trial might be. And where to draw the line between acceptable flaws in an older boat and those that might require remedy or an adjustment in price before sale.
                          Thanks
                          Grey

                          From: Jim Schofield <jschofield1@...>
                          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:19 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28
                           
                          Any offer should be made contingent on a survey and sea trial.
                           
                          Jim S.
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:49 PM
                          Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                           

                          I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can't travel quite as far starboard due to the slight bend in the post. I did look in the bilge as you suggested and the stringers are all solid and dry, and the fiberglass tabs show no cracks and are solid. The teak floor is completely dry and solid at least everywhere I could reach. The bulkheads are dry and solid right down to the floor. The paint in the bilge was all a sort of greenish-blue (petit bikini blue?). The keel and rudder seem to have no visible damage that I can see.

                          I have seen in some online research that some people drop the rudder and have a machine shop straighten the post? Does this seem viable?Since other than a few minor issues the boat seems pretty good to me, I would hate to let it go because of a problem that could be solved for perhaps not huge money. The owner has put money into the boat. Quite a few new Atomic 4 parts, new mainsail, 2 new batteries, rebedded all the chain plates. I would appreciate any further feedback. Thanks.

                          David
                          --- In mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue.
                          >
                          > The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          >
                          > On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.
                          > >
                          > > Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.
                          > >
                          > > On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> Hi Everyone
                          > >>
                          > >> I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice. Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat. I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips. I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little. I am attaching a photo of it. The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed. I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject. Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                          > >>
                          > >> Thanks in advance
                          > >>
                          > >> David
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >


                        • David Kiernan
                          Mark It is the 28 in Portsmouth.  Do you have a name of anyone at the Hinckley yard I could talk to?  I really appreciate the info.  It s amazing to me to
                          Message 13 of 26 , Dec 20, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Mark

                            It is the 28 in Portsmouth.  Do you have a name of anyone at the Hinckley yard I could talk to?  I really appreciate the info.  It's amazing to me to be able to connect with someone locally.  My impression is that the present owner doesn't consider it such a serious issue.  The rudder has almost full range of motion, and he said it hasn't bothered him.  I had one response from sailor11767 that I think probably describes how he feels about it.

                            Thanks again for the tip about Hinckley.

                            David


                            From: Mark Wallace <markwallace65@...>
                            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:50 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                             
                            Greg,
                            Is this the 28 for sale in Portsmouth RI?  The description matches.  If so I saw it on Craigslist, and it does look nice in the pictures.  Regardless, you will definitely want someone with knowledge to look at that rudder before committing to a purchase.  There is a Hinckley yard in Portsmouth that provides repair services with many knowledgeable guys (including one I bought my 28 from), perhaps you could ask someone there to take a look for short money.  My concern would be the ability of the SS rudder post to be bent back without compromising it's integrity or damaging the rudder in the process.  That rudder post is very heavy gauge SS, and for a bend like that to have occurred would have taken a LOT of force.
                             
                            Beyond that, I can't imagine owning a boat which I put money into and ignoring such a serious issue, which makes me question the present owner's priorities (at least).
                             
                            If there is any question, move on, there are a lot of 28's for sale in this area, esp. come spring time.  Best of luck,
                             
                            Mark
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             


                            On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Greg Rogers <greggo214@...> wrote:
                             
                            I'd appreciate any thoughts on what the the contengincies of the survey and sea trial might be. And where to draw the line between acceptable flaws in an older boat and those that might require remedy or an adjustment in price before sale.
                            Thanks
                            Grey

                            From: Jim Schofield <jschofield1@...>
                            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:19 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28
                             
                            Any offer should be made contingent on a survey and sea trial.
                             
                            Jim S.
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:49 PM
                            Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                             

                            I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can't travel quite as far starboard due to the slight bend in the post. I did look in the bilge as you suggested and the stringers are all solid and dry, and the fiberglass tabs show no cracks and are solid. The teak floor is completely dry and solid at least everywhere I could reach. The bulkheads are dry and solid right down to the floor. The paint in the bilge was all a sort of greenish-blue (petit bikini blue?). The keel and rudder seem to have no visible damage that I can see.

                            I have seen in some online research that some people drop the rudder and have a machine shop straighten the post? Does this seem viable?Since other than a few minor issues the boat seems pretty good to me, I would hate to let it go because of a problem that could be solved for perhaps not huge money. The owner has put money into the boat. Quite a few new Atomic 4 parts, new mainsail, 2 new batteries, rebedded all the chain plates. I would appreciate any further feedback. Thanks.

                            David
                            --- In mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue.
                            >
                            > The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.
                            >
                            > Dave
                            >
                            >
                            > On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.
                            > >
                            > > Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.
                            > >
                            > > On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >> Hi Everyone
                            > >>
                            > >> I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice. Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat. I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips. I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little. I am attaching a photo of it. The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed. I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject. Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                            > >>
                            > >> Thanks in advance
                            > >>
                            > >> David
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >




                          • Mark Wallace
                            David, I don t have a contact, sorry, the guy I knew moved on to another yard. I would just stop by and show your picture and ask their opinion, as a start.
                            Message 14 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              David,
                              I don't have a contact, sorry, the guy I knew moved on to another yard.  I would just stop by and show your picture and ask their opinion, as a start.  You may be a potential client for the repair, so they should help.  I would consider this a major issue.  The other responses you received on this forum also echoed that.  I'm in CT, glad to help.  Let us know how you make out.
                               
                              Mark


                               
                              On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 7:15 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                               

                              Mark

                              It is the 28 in Portsmouth.  Do you have a name of anyone at the Hinckley yard I could talk to?  I really appreciate the info.  It's amazing to me to be able to connect with someone locally.  My impression is that the present owner doesn't consider it such a serious issue.  The rudder has almost full range of motion, and he said it hasn't bothered him.  I had one response from sailor11767 that I think probably describes how he feels about it.

                              Thanks again for the tip about Hinckley.

                              David


                              From: Mark Wallace <markwallace65@...>
                              To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:50 PM

                              Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                               
                              Greg,
                              Is this the 28 for sale in Portsmouth RI?  The description matches.  If so I saw it on Craigslist, and it does look nice in the pictures.  Regardless, you will definitely want someone with knowledge to look at that rudder before committing to a purchase.  There is a Hinckley yard in Portsmouth that provides repair services with many knowledgeable guys (including one I bought my 28 from), perhaps you could ask someone there to take a look for short money.  My concern would be the ability of the SS rudder post to be bent back without compromising it's integrity or damaging the rudder in the process.  That rudder post is very heavy gauge SS, and for a bend like that to have occurred would have taken a LOT of force.
                               
                              Beyond that, I can't imagine owning a boat which I put money into and ignoring such a serious issue, which makes me question the present owner's priorities (at least).
                               
                              If there is any question, move on, there are a lot of 28's for sale in this area, esp. come spring time.  Best of luck,
                               
                              Mark
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               


                              On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Greg Rogers <greggo214@...> wrote:
                               
                              I'd appreciate any thoughts on what the the contengincies of the survey and sea trial might be. And where to draw the line between acceptable flaws in an older boat and those that might require remedy or an adjustment in price before sale.
                              Thanks
                              Grey

                              From: Jim Schofield <jschofield1@...>
                              To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:19 PM
                              Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28
                               
                              Any offer should be made contingent on a survey and sea trial.
                               
                              Jim S.
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:49 PM
                              Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                               

                              I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can't travel quite as far starboard due to the slight bend in the post. I did look in the bilge as you suggested and the stringers are all solid and dry, and the fiberglass tabs show no cracks and are solid. The teak floor is completely dry and solid at least everywhere I could reach. The bulkheads are dry and solid right down to the floor. The paint in the bilge was all a sort of greenish-blue (petit bikini blue?). The keel and rudder seem to have no visible damage that I can see.

                              I have seen in some online research that some people drop the rudder and have a machine shop straighten the post? Does this seem viable?Since other than a few minor issues the boat seems pretty good to me, I would hate to let it go because of a problem that could be solved for perhaps not huge money. The owner has put money into the boat. Quite a few new Atomic 4 parts, new mainsail, 2 new batteries, rebedded all the chain plates. I would appreciate any further feedback. Thanks.

                              David
                              --- In mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue.
                              >
                              > The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.
                              >
                              > Dave
                              >
                              >
                              > On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.
                              > >
                              > > Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.
                              > >
                              > > On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >> Hi Everyone
                              > >>
                              > >> I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice. Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat. I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips. I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little. I am attaching a photo of it. The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed. I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject. Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                              > >>
                              > >> Thanks in advance
                              > >>
                              > >> David
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >





                            • Bill
                              I ve heard of a S-28 with a bent rudder post in the past. A friend of mine had a 76 S-28 which he swears that he bent the post on a very rough extended power
                              Message 15 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I've heard of a S-28 with a bent rudder post in the past. A friend of mine had a 76 S-28 which he swears that he bent the post on a very rough extended power reach in about 20 knots and too much sail up. He is an engineer and explained that the lateral force on the boat can be equal to the weight of the boat. I'm skeptical but if it is true then 7000 lbs trying to bend the post could happen especially if the stainless post has any defect. It should be pretty easy to drop the rudder. I think the best thing would be to cut the seam and open the rudder up. Take out the post with spade. Buy a new piece of stainless schedule pipe and have a welding shop weld the new post. Put 2 halves back together, glass up and fair. From past experience with the rudder on my S-28 it is about a $1500 job. Good luck

                                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Mark
                                >
                                > It is the 28 in Portsmouth.  Do you have a name of anyone at the Hinckley yard I could talk to?  I really appreciate the info.  It's amazing to me to be able to connect with someone locally.  My impression is that the present owner doesn't consider it such a serious issue.  The rudder has almost full range of motion, and he said it hasn't bothered him.  I had one response from sailor11767 that I think probably describes how he feels about it.
                                >
                                > Thanks again for the tip about Hinckley.
                                >
                                > David
                                >
                              • Bill Blalock
                                You can bend the post if you get a line, mooring, or pendant stuck on it. Running aground is not required. Trust me. Bill B
                                Message 16 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  You can bend the post if you get a line, mooring, or pendant stuck on it. Running aground is not required. Trust me.
                                  Bill B

                                  On Dec 20, 2012 4:47 PM, "sailor11767" <sailor11767@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Dave,

                                  I have perhaps a differing view on this (if you read back far enough in the archives, you'll find that I often do....). Life is gray, and you have to play priorities and compromises. I can see a scenario as follows:

                                  The owner has an older boat. He treats it well, and spends money on it -- but it's an older boat. Something happens, and the rudder gets bent. He dives the boat. Funny thing is, nothing else was really damaged. So he finishes the season out. Along the way, he finds that, while "less than perfect" it isn't much worse than many other "less than perfect" aspects of his 30 year old boat. It turns port fine, and starboard isn't that big an issue. So, that winter, instead of dropping $2K in fixing the rudder, he drops $2K on a new sail. Next year, he's glad he made the choice, 'cause the boat looks better, sails faster, and that right turn thing still isn't that big an issue.

                                  If you want a perfect boat, buy new. If you can only afford a less than perfect boat, your budget will define the level of blemishes. You probably don't want to sail around the world with that bent rudder. But I'm not sure that a S28 is the right boat for that (although a 40 year old Albin Vega 27 went non-stop around the Americas -- and it was in bad shape when it started the trip!).

                                  Me? I'd look long and hard at the rest of the boat, and then I'd go back and look at the rudder carefully. If the boat is generally in good shape (sounds like it is), the rudder with damage is still functional with no serious impending issues (sounds like it is), the price is generally right (sounds like it is), you may have the right level of compromise. Just like the PO, be annoyed by the damage but live with it.

                                  As far as binding in one direction, you can adjust the rudder stops to make it "stop" rather than bind.

                                  Harry
                                  Analysis
                                  '79 S34-I #063
                                  Mill Creek, Annapolis

                                  PS -- I bought a project boat, a purchase that I regret. It was the best boat I could afford (and from a "TOTAL COST" basis it was still a good deal -- just not from a labor (mine) basis). The alternative was "no boat" -- but with the alternative, I would have much more time to sail OPB's. So maybe I'm not the best source of advice.

                                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "DKIERNAN10" <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can't travel quite as far starboard due to the slight bend in the post. I did look in the bilge as you suggested and the stringers are all solid and dry, and the fiberglass tabs show no cracks and are solid. The teak floor is completely dry and solid at least everywhere I could reach. The bulkheads are dry and solid right down to the floor. The paint in the bilge was all a sort of greenish-blue (petit bikini blue?). The keel and rudder seem to have no visible damage that I can see.
                                  >
                                  > I have seen in some online research that some people drop the rudder and have a machine shop straighten the post? Does this seem viable?Since other than a few minor issues the boat seems pretty good to me, I would hate to let it go because of a problem that could be solved for perhaps not huge money. The owner has put money into the boat. Quite a few new Atomic 4 parts, new mainsail, 2 new batteries, rebedded all the chain plates. I would appreciate any further feedback. Thanks.
                                  >
                                  > David
                                  > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue.
                                  > >
                                  > > The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.
                                  > >
                                  > > Dave
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> Hi Everyone
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice. Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat. I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips. I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little. I am attaching a photo of it. The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed. I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject. Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> Thanks in advance
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> David
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >

                                • David Kiernan
                                  Mark Thanks for the update.  I will probably stop by the Hinckley yard and see if I can get them to take a look. In an e-mail,  the current owner said that
                                  Message 17 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Mark

                                    Thanks for the update.  I will probably stop by the Hinckley yard and see if I can get them to take a look. In an e-mail,  the current owner said that the yard he keeps the boat at would drop the rudder and have it straightened at a machine shop for a few hundred dollars.  He didn't define "few" though.  I plan on checking into that also.  Thanks again for getting back to me and I will let you know what happens.

                                    David


                                    From: Mark Wallace <markwallace65@...>
                                    To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 10:57 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                                     
                                    David,
                                    I don't have a contact, sorry, the guy I knew moved on to another yard.  I would just stop by and show your picture and ask their opinion, as a start.  You may be a potential client for the repair, so they should help.  I would consider this a major issue.  The other responses you received on this forum also echoed that.  I'm in CT, glad to help.  Let us know how you make out.
                                     
                                    Mark


                                     
                                    On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 7:15 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    Mark

                                    It is the 28 in Portsmouth.  Do you have a name of anyone at the Hinckley yard I could talk to?  I really appreciate the info.  It's amazing to me to be able to connect with someone locally.  My impression is that the present owner doesn't consider it such a serious issue.  The rudder has almost full range of motion, and he said it hasn't bothered him.  I had one response from sailor11767 that I think probably describes how he feels about it.

                                    Thanks again for the tip about Hinckley.

                                    David


                                    From: Mark Wallace <markwallace65@...>
                                    To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:50 PM

                                    Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                                     
                                    Greg,
                                    Is this the 28 for sale in Portsmouth RI?  The description matches.  If so I saw it on Craigslist, and it does look nice in the pictures.  Regardless, you will definitely want someone with knowledge to look at that rudder before committing to a purchase.  There is a Hinckley yard in Portsmouth that provides repair services with many knowledgeable guys (including one I bought my 28 from), perhaps you could ask someone there to take a look for short money.  My concern would be the ability of the SS rudder post to be bent back without compromising it's integrity or damaging the rudder in the process.  That rudder post is very heavy gauge SS, and for a bend like that to have occurred would have taken a LOT of force.
                                     
                                    Beyond that, I can't imagine owning a boat which I put money into and ignoring such a serious issue, which makes me question the present owner's priorities (at least).
                                     
                                    If there is any question, move on, there are a lot of 28's for sale in this area, esp. come spring time.  Best of luck,
                                     
                                    Mark
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     


                                    On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Greg Rogers <greggo214@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    I'd appreciate any thoughts on what the the contengincies of the survey and sea trial might be. And where to draw the line between acceptable flaws in an older boat and those that might require remedy or an adjustment in price before sale.
                                    Thanks
                                    Grey

                                    From: Jim Schofield <jschofield1@...>
                                    To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:19 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28
                                     
                                    Any offer should be made contingent on a survey and sea trial.
                                     
                                    Jim S.
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:49 PM
                                    Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                                     

                                    I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can't travel quite as far starboard due to the slight bend in the post. I did look in the bilge as you suggested and the stringers are all solid and dry, and the fiberglass tabs show no cracks and are solid. The teak floor is completely dry and solid at least everywhere I could reach. The bulkheads are dry and solid right down to the floor. The paint in the bilge was all a sort of greenish-blue (petit bikini blue?). The keel and rudder seem to have no visible damage that I can see.

                                    I have seen in some online research that some people drop the rudder and have a machine shop straighten the post? Does this seem viable?Since other than a few minor issues the boat seems pretty good to me, I would hate to let it go because of a problem that could be solved for perhaps not huge money. The owner has put money into the boat. Quite a few new Atomic 4 parts, new mainsail, 2 new batteries, rebedded all the chain plates. I would appreciate any further feedback. Thanks.

                                    David
                                    --- In mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue.
                                    >
                                    > The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.
                                    >
                                    > Dave
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.
                                    > >
                                    > > Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.
                                    > >
                                    > > On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Hi Everyone
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice. Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat. I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips. I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little. I am attaching a photo of it. The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed. I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject. Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Thanks in advance
                                    > >>
                                    > >> David
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >







                                  • Dan Trainor
                                    Or you could ship rudder to Sabre and have them fabricate a new one of same dimensions. ... -- Dan
                                    Message 18 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Or you could ship rudder to Sabre and have them fabricate a new one of same dimensions.


                                      On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 2:46 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      Mark

                                      Thanks for the update.  I will probably stop by the Hinckley yard and see if I can get them to take a look. In an e-mail,  the current owner said that the yard he keeps the boat at would drop the rudder and have it straightened at a machine shop for a few hundred dollars.  He didn't define "few" though.  I plan on checking into that also.  Thanks again for getting back to me and I will let you know what happens.

                                      David

                                      Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 10:57 AM

                                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                                       
                                      David,
                                      I don't have a contact, sorry, the guy I knew moved on to another yard.  I would just stop by and show your picture and ask their opinion, as a start.  You may be a potential client for the repair, so they should help.  I would consider this a major issue.  The other responses you received on this forum also echoed that.  I'm in CT, glad to help.  Let us know how you make out.
                                       
                                      Mark


                                       
                                      On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 7:15 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      Mark

                                      It is the 28 in Portsmouth.  Do you have a name of anyone at the Hinckley yard I could talk to?  I really appreciate the info.  It's amazing to me to be able to connect with someone locally.  My impression is that the present owner doesn't consider it such a serious issue.  The rudder has almost full range of motion, and he said it hasn't bothered him.  I had one response from sailor11767 that I think probably describes how he feels about it.

                                      Thanks again for the tip about Hinckley.

                                      David


                                      From: Mark Wallace <markwallace65@...>
                                      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:50 PM

                                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                                       
                                      Greg,
                                      Is this the 28 for sale in Portsmouth RI?  The description matches.  If so I saw it on Craigslist, and it does look nice in the pictures.  Regardless, you will definitely want someone with knowledge to look at that rudder before committing to a purchase.  There is a Hinckley yard in Portsmouth that provides repair services with many knowledgeable guys (including one I bought my 28 from), perhaps you could ask someone there to take a look for short money.  My concern would be the ability of the SS rudder post to be bent back without compromising it's integrity or damaging the rudder in the process.  That rudder post is very heavy gauge SS, and for a bend like that to have occurred would have taken a LOT of force.
                                       
                                      Beyond that, I can't imagine owning a boat which I put money into and ignoring such a serious issue, which makes me question the present owner's priorities (at least).
                                       
                                      If there is any question, move on, there are a lot of 28's for sale in this area, esp. come spring time.  Best of luck,
                                       
                                      Mark
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       


                                      On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Greg Rogers <greggo214@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      I'd appreciate any thoughts on what the the contengincies of the survey and sea trial might be. And where to draw the line between acceptable flaws in an older boat and those that might require remedy or an adjustment in price before sale.
                                      Thanks
                                      Grey

                                      From: Jim Schofield <jschofield1@...>
                                      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:19 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28
                                       
                                      Any offer should be made contingent on a survey and sea trial.
                                       
                                      Jim S.
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:49 PM
                                      Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                                       

                                      I went back and took another look at the boat today. The rudder moves freely to the port side and ultimately can't travel quite as far starboard due to the slight bend in the post. I did look in the bilge as you suggested and the stringers are all solid and dry, and the fiberglass tabs show no cracks and are solid. The teak floor is completely dry and solid at least everywhere I could reach. The bulkheads are dry and solid right down to the floor. The paint in the bilge was all a sort of greenish-blue (petit bikini blue?). The keel and rudder seem to have no visible damage that I can see.

                                      I have seen in some online research that some people drop the rudder and have a machine shop straighten the post? Does this seem viable?Since other than a few minor issues the boat seems pretty good to me, I would hate to let it go because of a problem that could be solved for perhaps not huge money. The owner has put money into the boat. Quite a few new Atomic 4 parts, new mainsail, 2 new batteries, rebedded all the chain plates. I would appreciate any further feedback. Thanks.

                                      David
                                      --- In mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Have to go with the crowd here. Bent rudder post is a bad sign. I'd guess that the boat has been run hard aground. If so, check the stringers under the cabin sole. Look for cracks in the fiberglass tabbing around the stringers and missing or mismatched paint. The bilge should be Petit Bikini Blue.
                                      >
                                      > The other half of the equation is the boat price and repair cost. If the owner is willing to pay you some money to take it off his hands, then it may not be a bad deal.
                                      >
                                      > Dave
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hmm. A bent rudder post. By design, the rudder is a little less deep than the keel. It's kind a hard to imagine how a rudder post could be bent without doing significant, if non-obvious, damage elsewhere.
                                      > >
                                      > > Either deeper investigation or bail out is necessary.
                                      > >
                                      > > On 12/19/2012 4:09 PM, David Kiernan wrote:
                                      > >>
                                      > >> Hi Everyone
                                      > >>
                                      > >> I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice. Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat. I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips. I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little. I am attaching a photo of it. The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed. I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject. Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> Thanks in advance
                                      > >>
                                      > >> David
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >










                                      --
                                      Dan
                                    • Ira Baline
                                      I wouldn t buy into that problem. But David at this email address replaced his shaft and has the cost info,I think. leex3103@umn.edu By the way, I have a 74
                                      Message 19 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
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                                        I wouldn't buy into that problem. But David at this email address replaced his shaft and has the cost info,I think.


                                        By the way, I have a 74 Sabre 28 and may be interested in selling it. I am outside Boston. Where are you located
                                        ?
                                        On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:09 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                         
                                        [Attachment(s) from David Kiernan included below]

                                        Hi Everyone

                                        I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.

                                        Thanks in advance

                                        David


                                      • Aongus Flood
                                        David, If this has a tiller rather than a wheel, it is very easy to remove. Bringing it to a local machine shop might do the trick. This would not be a worry
                                        Message 20 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          David,

                                          If this has a tiller rather than a wheel, it is very easy to remove.  Bringing it to a local machine shop might do the trick.

                                          This would not be a worry unless there is some fracturing to be seen in the metal.  A complete new rudder would be expensive.  You might contact Glen at Sabre for more information and advice.  (gchaplin at sabreyatchs.com)

                                          Check the main bulkheads in the cabin where the chain plates are attached.  Ensure there is no rot or soft stuff there.

                                          Aongus
                                          S28 hull 54

                                          On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:09 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                           
                                          [Attachment(s) from David Kiernan included below]

                                          Hi Everyone

                                          I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.

                                          Thanks in advance

                                          David


                                        • David Kiernan
                                          Ira I am nearby in Rhode Island.  Let me know if you are interested in selling and if so, price.  Thanks. David ________________________________ From: Ira
                                          Message 21 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Ira

                                            I am nearby in Rhode Island.  Let me know if you are interested in selling and if so, price.  Thanks.

                                            David


                                            From: Ira Baline <darwindad2@...>
                                            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 6:00 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                                             
                                            I wouldn't buy into that problem. But David at this email address replaced his shaft and has the cost info,I think.


                                            By the way, I have a 74 Sabre 28 and may be interested in selling it. I am outside Boston. Where are you located
                                            ?
                                            On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:09 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                             
                                            [Attachment(s) from David Kiernan included below]
                                            Hi Everyone

                                            I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.

                                            Thanks in advance

                                            David



                                          • David Kiernan
                                            Aongus It is a wheel, not a tiller.  There is no friction when moving the rudder from side to side, it just can t go all the way to the starboard side because
                                            Message 22 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Aongus

                                              It is a wheel, not a tiller.  There is no friction when moving the rudder from side to side, it just can't go all the way to the starboard side because of the bend.  It eventually hits the hull on the top of the rudder.  I am thinking that if it was removed it should be possible to bend it back in place.   From what I have been able to find online it would seem that a new rudder would be around $2,000.  

                                              Another thought I have had is turning it back to a tiller instead of the wheel.  I have sailed a Laser for a long time, and am very comfortable with a tiller, and it seems to me the wheel takes up quite a lot of room in the cockpit.  It has the emergency tiller, and I wonder if it would be very difficult to go back to the tiller full time. Just a thought.

                                              David


                                              From: Aongus Flood <potatoespud@...>
                                              To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 6:05 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                                               
                                              David,

                                              If this has a tiller rather than a wheel, it is very easy to remove.  Bringing it to a local machine shop might do the trick.

                                              This would not be a worry unless there is some fracturing to be seen in the metal.  A complete new rudder would be expensive.  You might contact Glen at Sabre for more information and advice.  (gchaplin at sabreyatchs.com)

                                              Check the main bulkheads in the cabin where the chain plates are attached.  Ensure there is no rot or soft stuff there.

                                              Aongus
                                              S28 hull 54

                                              On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:09 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                               
                                              [Attachment(s) from David Kiernan included below]
                                              Hi Everyone

                                              I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.

                                              Thanks in advance

                                              David



                                            • mookiesurfs@gmail.com
                                              The rudder will float up when in the water, and slides down a little when out. Check the hull for signs of scraping from when it was in the water, trying to
                                              Message 23 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                The rudder will float up when in the water, and slides down a little when out. Check the hull for signs of scraping from when it was in the water, trying to float up towards the hull. You may be able to lift to simulate being in the water.

                                                Dropping a wheel driven rudder can be a pain, but I would insist on it before purchase. It may be serviceable bent, it may not be. Tough to tell without dropping it.
                                                Bill B

                                                Sent from an elegant interface with limited functionality, while traveling 

                                                On Dec 21, 2012, at 7:13 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:

                                                 

                                                Aongus

                                                It is a wheel, not a tiller.  There is no friction when moving the rudder from side to side, it just can't go all the way to the starboard side because of the bend.  It eventually hits the hull on the top of the rudder.  I am thinking that if it was removed it should be possible to bend it back in place.   From what I have been able to find online it would seem that a new rudder would be around $2,000.  

                                                Another thought I have had is turning it back to a tiller instead of the wheel.  I have sailed a Laser for a long time, and am very comfortable with a tiller, and it seems to me the wheel takes up quite a lot of room in the cockpit.  It has the emergency tiller, and I wonder if it would be very difficult to go back to the tiller full time. Just a thought.

                                                David


                                                From: Aongus Flood <potatoespud@...>
                                                To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 6:05 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                                                 
                                                David,

                                                If this has a tiller rather than a wheel, it is very easy to remove.  Bringing it to a local machine shop might do the trick.

                                                This would not be a worry unless there is some fracturing to be seen in the metal.  A complete new rudder would be expensive.  You might contact Glen at Sabre for more information and advice.  (gchaplin at sabreyatchs.com)

                                                Check the main bulkheads in the cabin where the chain plates are attached.  Ensure there is no rot or soft stuff there.

                                                Aongus
                                                S28 hull 54

                                                On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:09 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                                 
                                                [Attachment(s) from David Kiernan included below]
                                                Hi Everyone

                                                I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.

                                                Thanks in advance

                                                David



                                              • sailor11767
                                                There are lots of thoughts on the advantages of tillers and wheels. One point worth noting is that a wheel is very conducive to an autopilot. While a tiller
                                                Message 24 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  There are lots of thoughts on the advantages of tillers and wheels. One point worth noting is that a wheel is very conducive to an autopilot. While a tiller can use a tiller pilot, it is not any where near as omnipresent. If you sail alone, this is a big consideration.

                                                  Harry

                                                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Aongus
                                                  >
                                                  > It is a wheel, not a tiller.  There is no friction when moving the rudder from side to side, it just can't go all the way to the starboard side because of the bend.  It eventually hits the hull on the top of the rudder.  I am thinking that if it was removed it should be possible to bend it back in place.   From what I have been able to find online it would seem that a new rudder would be around $2,000.  
                                                  >
                                                  > Another thought I have had is turning it back to a tiller instead of the wheel.  I have sailed a Laser for a long time, and am very comfortable with a tiller, and it seems to me the wheel takes up quite a lot of room in the cockpit.  It has the emergency tiller, and I wonder if it would be very difficult to go back to the tiller full time. Just a thought.
                                                  >
                                                  > David
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ________________________________
                                                  > From: Aongus Flood <potatoespud@...>
                                                  > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 6:05 PM
                                                  > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Looking at 1975 Sabre 28
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >  
                                                  > David,
                                                  >
                                                  > If this has a tiller rather than a wheel, it is very easy to remove.  Bringing it to a local machine shop might do the trick.
                                                  >
                                                  > This would not be a worry unless there is some fracturing to be seen in the metal.  A complete new rudder would be expensive.  You might contact Glen at Sabre for more information and advice.  (gchaplin at sabreyatchs.com)
                                                  >
                                                  > Check the main bulkheads in the cabin where the chain plates are attached.  Ensure there is no rot or soft stuff there.
                                                  >
                                                  > Aongus
                                                  > S28 hull 54
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:09 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > > 
                                                  > >[Attachment(s) from David Kiernan included below]
                                                  > >Hi Everyone
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >Thanks in advance
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >David
                                                  >
                                                • David Kiernan
                                                  Harry Some good points to consider.  Since it does have a wheel now and an autopilot, I would not change anything until I spent quite a bit of time with the
                                                  Message 25 of 26 , Dec 21, 2012
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Harry

                                                    Some good points to consider.  Since it does have a wheel now and an autopilot, I would not change anything until I spent quite a bit of time with the current set-up.  I suspect I would get used to the wheel and probably come to like it.

                                                    David


                                                    From: sailor11767 <sailor11767@...>
                                                    To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 10:04 PM
                                                    Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28

                                                     
                                                    There are lots of thoughts on the advantages of tillers and wheels. One point worth noting is that a wheel is very conducive to an autopilot. While a tiller can use a tiller pilot, it is not any where near as omnipresent. If you sail alone, this is a big consideration.

                                                    Harry

                                                    --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Aongus
                                                    >
                                                    > It is a wheel, not a tiller.  There is no friction when moving the rudder from side to side, it just can't go all the way to the starboard side because of the bend.  It eventually hits the hull on the top of the rudder.  I am thinking that if it was removed it should be possible to bend it back in place.   From what I have been able to find online it would seem that a new rudder would be around $2,000.  
                                                    >
                                                    > Another thought I have had is turning it back to a tiller instead of the wheel.  I have sailed a Laser for a long time, and am very comfortable with a tiller, and it seems to me the wheel takes up quite a lot of room in the cockpit.  It has the emergency tiller, and I wonder if it would be very difficult to go back to the tiller full time. Just a thought.
                                                    >
                                                    > David
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ________________________________
                                                    > From: Aongus Flood <potatoespud@...>
                                                    > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 6:05 PM
                                                    > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Looking at 1975 Sabre 28
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >  
                                                    > David,
                                                    >
                                                    > If this has a tiller rather than a wheel, it is very easy to remove.  Bringing it to a local machine shop might do the trick.
                                                    >
                                                    > This would not be a worry unless there is some fracturing to be seen in the metal.  A complete new rudder would be expensive.  You might contact Glen at Sabre for more information and advice.  (gchaplin at sabreyatchs.com)
                                                    >
                                                    > Check the main bulkheads in the cabin where the chain plates are attached.  Ensure there is no rot or soft stuff there.
                                                    >
                                                    > Aongus
                                                    > S28 hull 54
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:09 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > > 
                                                    > >[Attachment(s) from David Kiernan included below]
                                                    > >Hi Everyone
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >Thanks in advance
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >David
                                                    >



                                                  • Barry Wilson
                                                    I have a tiller on my S28.  It sails fine with the tiller.  However, there are a lot of times I wish I had a wheel. The tiller is long and has a big sweep
                                                    Message 26 of 26 , Dec 24, 2012
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      I have a tiller on my S28.  It sails fine with the tiller.  However, there are a lot of times I wish I had a wheel. The tiller is long and has a big sweep in the cockpit. The wheel may take up a lot of space in the cockpit, but it is a fixed object that people don't have to constantly get out of the way of. 
                                                       
                                                      The issue is more noticable with inexperienced guests who are surprised to get goosed by the end of the tiller.  Of course for some skippers that is what is referred to in the software world as an undocumented feature.
                                                       
                                                      Barry Wilson
                                                      Slipstream S28 #400

                                                      From: David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...>
                                                      To: "Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com" <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 10:12 PM
                                                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28
                                                       
                                                      Harry

                                                      Some good points to consider.  Since it does have a wheel now and an autopilot, I would not change anything until I spent quite a bit of time with the current set-up.  I suspect I would get used to the wheel and probably come to like it.

                                                      David

                                                      From: sailor11767 <sailor11767@...>
                                                      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 10:04 PM
                                                      Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Looking at 1975 Sabre 28
                                                       
                                                      There are lots of thoughts on the advantages of tillers and wheels. One point worth noting is that a wheel is very conducive to an autopilot. While a tiller can use a tiller pilot, it is not any where near as omnipresent. If you sail alone, this is a big consideration. Harry --- In mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote: > > Aongus > > It is a wheel, not a tiller.  There is no friction when moving the rudder from side to side, it just can't go all the way to the starboard side because of the bend.  It eventually hits the hull on the top of the rudder.  I am thinking that if it was removed it should be possible to bend it back in place.   From what I have been able to find online it would seem that a new rudder would be around $2,000.   > > Another thought I have had is turning it back to a tiller instead of the wheel.  I have sailed a Laser for a long time, and am very comfortable with a tiller, and it seems to me the wheel takes up quite a lot of room in the cockpit.  It has the emergency tiller, and I wonder if it would be very difficult to go back to the tiller full time. Just a thought. > > David > > > ________________________________ > From: Aongus Flood <potatoespud@...> > To: mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Looking at 1975 Sabre 28 > > >   > David, > > If this has a tiller rather than a wheel, it is very easy to remove.  Bringing it to a local machine shop might do the trick. > > This would not be a worry unless there is some fracturing to be seen in the metal.  A complete new rudder would be expensive.  You might contact Glen at Sabre for more information and advice.  (gchaplin at sabreyatchs.com) > > Check the main bulkheads in the cabin where the chain plates are attached.  Ensure there is no rot or soft stuff there. > > Aongus > S28 hull 54 > > > On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:09 PM, David Kiernan <dkiernan10@...> wrote: > > > >  > >[Attachment(s) from David Kiernan included below] > >Hi Everyone > > > > > >I am looking at buying a 1975 Sabre 28 and am looking for some advice.  Let me preface by saying I am a novice to the world of this size sailboat.  I have owned and sailed a Laser for about 20 years both on lakes and in the ocean, but have always wanted to own and sail a larger boat for day sailing and short trips.  I have looked at the boat once and I noticed the rudder post is bent back and to the starboard side a little.  I am attaching a photo of it.  The present owner said the rudder was like this when he bought the boat and it never was a problem and so hasn't been fixed.  I am hoping to get others opinion on the subject.  Also if people have suggestions of specific areas to check out on this boat I would appreciate it. > > > > > >Thanks in advance > > > > > >David >
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