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Re: Sole Searching for the Best Solution

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  • mattcragon
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 4, 2012
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      ...and dangling fuzz balls over each port hole. Pimp my boat!


      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Richard Coerse <rcoerse@...> wrote:
      >
      > How about a curtain made of beads across the passageway to the v-berth
      > and a few lava lamps in the salon? *lol*
      >
      > Daniel Trainor wrote:
      > >
      > > 1970s style green shag? LOL
      > >
      > > Sent from my iPhone
      > >
      > > On Nov 3, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Scott <targa387@...
      > > <mailto:targa387@...>> wrote:
      > >
      > >>
      > >> Glueing down shag carpet will send you straight to Sabre hell.
      > >> Plasteak, not so much.
      > >>
      > >> Scott
      > >>
      > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > >> *From:* mattcragon <mattcragon@... <mailto:mattcragon@...>>
      > >> *To:* Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
      > >> <mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
      > >> *Sent:* Friday, November 2, 2012 10:14 PM
      > >> *Subject:* [SabreSailboat] Sole Searching for the Best Solution
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Greetings,
      > >>
      > >> I am in the throws of ripping up portions of my delaminating sole.
      > >> Since Burmese Teak is no longer an option, I am forced consider
      > >> alternatives.
      > >>
      > >> While I am still considering actual wood, I ordered a sample of a
      > >> PlasTeak's Teak & Ebony stock, which could be a contender. The
      > >> obvious plus is lack of maintenance, it is really no cheaper than
      > >> wood, but it may be easier to lay down especially given the curves of
      > >> the Sabre 34's sole.
      > >>
      > >> My broker thinks going non-wood is bad idea from a resale
      > >> perspective. I am not really worried about that as I plan to keep the
      > >> boat forever. I have posted some pics of the swatch in the boat here
      > >> in the Photos section here...
      > >>
      > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sabresailboat/photos/album/1925830726/pic/list
      > >>
      > >> What do you think about it's looks. I does seem like it might be a
      > >> little bright compared to the rest of the boat, especially foward,
      > >> but I think I might have that issue with real teak as well. Lastly
      > >> would I go to Sabre hell for such sacrilege or dose it really matter.
      > >>
      > >> Matt
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      >
    • sailor11767
      Matt, I m in the middle of the same project, perhaps worse, on my 79 S34 #063. Pictures here: www.photobucket.com/cabinsole and I ve been wrestling with the
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 4, 2012
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        Matt,

        I'm in the middle of the same project, perhaps worse, on my '79 S34 #063. Pictures here: www.photobucket.com/cabinsole and I've been wrestling with the same question. My thoughts:

        * It's a 30 year old boat, and while a fine yacht and resale value is an issue, it's also a LOOOONG way from showroom. I have seen Lonseal (similar product) installed on a club member's boat, and it doesn't look fake. It may condemn you to Sabre Hell, but it won't kill the (rather limited) resale value of the boat. Just my opinion.

        * Since real teak and holly is out of reach of all of us, the only question is the flavor of fake. Sorry, but T&H plywood has as much authenticity as Formica. If you can't actually see the seams, you know in an instant it's fake. And speaking of Formica, I spent this past weekend on a Beneteau 44 with a Formica cabin sole -- WOW! 16 years old, looks great. I had seen it a year ago and tried to source it, without luck. Also, it's probably easier to do it on the dead flat sole he has VS our curved sole.

        * I've seen 5 year old replacement Sabre cabin soles in T&H plywood, with water stains under the varnish. A vinyl floor may be fake and cut resale value, but T&H with black stains I think is worse.

        * In the first 3 months I owned my boat, I dropped a new exhaust elbow on the T&H plywood sole. I'm VERY glad the sole was rotted and replacement was required, because I spent the next 2 years looking at a 3/4" long divot in the sole. I think vinyl is both more tolerant and easier to repair.

        * Lonseal is pricey because of the waste (over 50% waste) in 6' wide sheet goods. I assume PlasTeak is as bad. I'm leaning toward NuTeak or some similar commercial grade products that are laid as individual strips in a bed of epoxy. Waste approaches zero. Also, since it doesn't come on a roll, it doesn't have to be soft enough to roll -- and I think the harder material is a plus.

        * One thing I really liked on both the Formica and the Lonseal installations I looked at was the edges of the bilge access. I was concerned that the edges would get ratty, chipped, peel, etc -- and these installations were many years old and still crisp around the edges.

        With regard to real wood -- in 1972, my father bought a Mariner 40 ketch new. Wall to wall carpet was standard. For an extra $50, you could upgrade to a 3/4" solid teak sole. Even in 1972 dollars, that was a bargain! (yes, he did the upgrade).

        Harry
        Analysis
        '79 S34-1 #063
        Mill Creek, Annapolis

        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "mattcragon" <mattcragon@...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings,
        >
        > I am in the throws of ripping up portions of my delaminating sole. Since Burmese Teak is no longer an option, I am forced consider alternatives.
        >
        > While I am still considering actual wood, I ordered a sample of a PlasTeak's Teak & Ebony stock, which could be a contender. The obvious plus is lack of maintenance, it is really no cheaper than wood, but it may be easier to lay down especially given the curves of the Sabre 34's sole.
        >
        > My broker thinks going non-wood is bad idea from a resale perspective. I am not really worried about that as I plan to keep the boat forever. I have posted some pics of the swatch in the boat here in the Photos section here...
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sabresailboat/photos/album/1925830726/pic/list
        >
        > What do you think about it's looks. I does seem like it might be a little bright compared to the rest of the boat, especially foward, but I think I might have that issue with real teak as well. Lastly would I go to Sabre hell for such sacrilege or dose it really matter.
        >
        > Matt
        >
      • mattcragon
        Harry, I am looking at your pictures and I have to say you are depressing the crap out of me. Damn, that looks like a lot of work. I am still ripping up my
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 5, 2012
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          Harry,

          I am looking at your pictures and I have to say you are depressing the crap out of me. Damn, that looks like a lot of work. I am still ripping up my sole and I am hoping not to have to rip it all up like you have done.

          I think my boat is in a bit better shape as my setee's are solid. and forward of the head seems to be good. I have some rot creep up the mast bulkhead as you did.

          It is interesting looking at your sole as my boat is a fin keel. Maybe it is in better shape because the drainage may be a bit better as the keel sump seems to be much more forward and much deeper.

          My athwardships supports seem to be OK when I tap them with a hammer except for deep in the bilge where there is a cutaway for drainage. I could probably just replace the lower parts of them. I can see yours were pretty gone. Was that evident when you tapped them or did you discover they were much worse than expected once you cut into them?

          I guess I could drill test them as I did the mast step. My mast step seems to to be OK by that test, but I am wondering if I should replace it while I am in there. If you are replacing yours, what materials are you considering?


          At this point I am hoping only to pull up and replace the subfloor from the bulkhead back to where the setees begin.

          I think you are right about the laminates. I don't think it will really impact the resale value of the boat in a meaningful way. It is not like they are going for big bucks anymore. I would just as soon not have the future maintenence of wood and not worry about dings and dents or black spots like you said.

          Thanks for your reply. If you are miserable, you have company.

          Matt



          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sailor11767" <sailor11767@...> wrote:
          >
          > Matt,
          >
          > I'm in the middle of the same project, perhaps worse, on my '79 S34 #063. Pictures here: www.photobucket.com/cabinsole and I've been wrestling with the same question. My thoughts:
          >
          > * It's a 30 year old boat, and while a fine yacht and resale value is an issue, it's also a LOOOONG way from showroom. I have seen Lonseal (similar product) installed on a club member's boat, and it doesn't look fake. It may condemn you to Sabre Hell, but it won't kill the (rather limited) resale value of the boat. Just my opinion.
          >
          > * Since real teak and holly is out of reach of all of us, the only question is the flavor of fake. Sorry, but T&H plywood has as much authenticity as Formica. If you can't actually see the seams, you know in an instant it's fake. And speaking of Formica, I spent this past weekend on a Beneteau 44 with a Formica cabin sole -- WOW! 16 years old, looks great. I had seen it a year ago and tried to source it, without luck. Also, it's probably easier to do it on the dead flat sole he has VS our curved sole.
          >
          > * I've seen 5 year old replacement Sabre cabin soles in T&H plywood, with water stains under the varnish. A vinyl floor may be fake and cut resale value, but T&H with black stains I think is worse.
          >
          > * In the first 3 months I owned my boat, I dropped a new exhaust elbow on the T&H plywood sole. I'm VERY glad the sole was rotted and replacement was required, because I spent the next 2 years looking at a 3/4" long divot in the sole. I think vinyl is both more tolerant and easier to repair.
          >
          > * Lonseal is pricey because of the waste (over 50% waste) in 6' wide sheet goods. I assume PlasTeak is as bad. I'm leaning toward NuTeak or some similar commercial grade products that are laid as individual strips in a bed of epoxy. Waste approaches zero. Also, since it doesn't come on a roll, it doesn't have to be soft enough to roll -- and I think the harder material is a plus.
          >
          > * One thing I really liked on both the Formica and the Lonseal installations I looked at was the edges of the bilge access. I was concerned that the edges would get ratty, chipped, peel, etc -- and these installations were many years old and still crisp around the edges.
          >
          > With regard to real wood -- in 1972, my father bought a Mariner 40 ketch new. Wall to wall carpet was standard. For an extra $50, you could upgrade to a 3/4" solid teak sole. Even in 1972 dollars, that was a bargain! (yes, he did the upgrade).
          >
          > Harry
          > Analysis
          > '79 S34-1 #063
          > Mill Creek, Annapolis
          >
          > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "mattcragon" <mattcragon@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Greetings,
          > >
          > > I am in the throws of ripping up portions of my delaminating sole. Since Burmese Teak is no longer an option, I am forced consider alternatives.
          > >
          > > While I am still considering actual wood, I ordered a sample of a PlasTeak's Teak & Ebony stock, which could be a contender. The obvious plus is lack of maintenance, it is really no cheaper than wood, but it may be easier to lay down especially given the curves of the Sabre 34's sole.
          > >
          > > My broker thinks going non-wood is bad idea from a resale perspective. I am not really worried about that as I plan to keep the boat forever. I have posted some pics of the swatch in the boat here in the Photos section here...
          > >
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sabresailboat/photos/album/1925830726/pic/list
          > >
          > > What do you think about it's looks. I does seem like it might be a little bright compared to the rest of the boat, especially foward, but I think I might have that issue with real teak as well. Lastly would I go to Sabre hell for such sacrilege or dose it really matter.
          > >
          > > Matt
          > >
          >
        • sailor11767
          Matt, Yes, it s depressing! And it has taken far more time than I expected (but don t they always?). In truth though, it hasn t been harder or more than
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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            Matt,

            Yes, it's depressing! And it has taken far more time than I expected (but don't they always?). In truth though, it hasn't been "harder" or "more" than expected.

            Here's a recent post I made that has a lot of good stuff:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sabresailboat/message/40338

            Those beams. I have some feelings, but not quite "positions," that are counter to the conventional wisdom about them. To be sure, my new beams are certainly stronger than the old stuff I took out, at least as strong as factory original, and arguably stronger than new. But, I'm not sure that they are the highly critical, super strong element of the hull that most believe them to be -- the evidence is that Sabre didn't think much of them. The original beams were made of plywood, a lousy beam material. They didn't fit them very well to the hull, with voids up to 1/2" or more that they simply filled with putty. The glass overlay was poorly laid. The glass was laid well after the hull was laid up, with very poor bond -- and in places, the glass was laid over Bikini Blue paint! I took the glass apart with a big chisel -- get it under a corner and hammer away (except where I just pulled the glass apart with my hands!)

            My beams were remarkably un-rotten. I have some reservations about the value of the effort I did. I expected that since my bilge had been full of water up to the cabin sole for years before I bought the boat that I would see a lot of rot. For reasons I can't explain, the ribs and mast step were remarkably intact. I drilled exploratory holes and the wood looked good, but I couldn't believe what I saw and tore it all out anyway. There is some blackness, but the wood is firm, the plywood joints are solid -- all in all, not as bad as I expected. I'm at a loss to explain it, and I'm generally glad I replaced it all, but given what I found when I tore it out I'm not sure it was worth the effort.

            Harry
            Analysis
            '79 S34-I #063
            Mill Creek, Annapolis

            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "mattcragon" <mattcragon@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Harry,
            >
            > I am looking at your pictures and I have to say you are depressing the crap out of me. Damn, that looks like a lot of work. I am still ripping up my sole and I am hoping not to have to rip it all up like you have done.
            >
            > I think my boat is in a bit better shape as my setee's are solid. and forward of the head seems to be good. I have some rot creep up the mast bulkhead as you did.
            >
            > It is interesting looking at your sole as my boat is a fin keel. Maybe it is in better shape because the drainage may be a bit better as the keel sump seems to be much more forward and much deeper.
            >
            > My athwardships supports seem to be OK when I tap them with a hammer except for deep in the bilge where there is a cutaway for drainage. I could probably just replace the lower parts of them. I can see yours were pretty gone. Was that evident when you tapped them or did you discover they were much worse than expected once you cut into them?
            >
            > I guess I could drill test them as I did the mast step. My mast step seems to to be OK by that test, but I am wondering if I should replace it while I am in there. If you are replacing yours, what materials are you considering?
            >
            >
            > At this point I am hoping only to pull up and replace the subfloor from the bulkhead back to where the setees begin.
            >
            > I think you are right about the laminates. I don't think it will really impact the resale value of the boat in a meaningful way. It is not like they are going for big bucks anymore. I would just as soon not have the future maintenence of wood and not worry about dings and dents or black spots like you said.
            >
            > Thanks for your reply. If you are miserable, you have company.
            >
            > Matt
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sailor11767" <sailor11767@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Matt,
            > >
            > > I'm in the middle of the same project, perhaps worse, on my '79 S34 #063. Pictures here: www.photobucket.com/cabinsole and I've been wrestling with the same question. My thoughts:
            > >
            > > * It's a 30 year old boat, and while a fine yacht and resale value is an issue, it's also a LOOOONG way from showroom. I have seen Lonseal (similar product) installed on a club member's boat, and it doesn't look fake. It may condemn you to Sabre Hell, but it won't kill the (rather limited) resale value of the boat. Just my opinion.
            > >
            > > * Since real teak and holly is out of reach of all of us, the only question is the flavor of fake. Sorry, but T&H plywood has as much authenticity as Formica. If you can't actually see the seams, you know in an instant it's fake. And speaking of Formica, I spent this past weekend on a Beneteau 44 with a Formica cabin sole -- WOW! 16 years old, looks great. I had seen it a year ago and tried to source it, without luck. Also, it's probably easier to do it on the dead flat sole he has VS our curved sole.
            > >
            > > * I've seen 5 year old replacement Sabre cabin soles in T&H plywood, with water stains under the varnish. A vinyl floor may be fake and cut resale value, but T&H with black stains I think is worse.
            > >
            > > * In the first 3 months I owned my boat, I dropped a new exhaust elbow on the T&H plywood sole. I'm VERY glad the sole was rotted and replacement was required, because I spent the next 2 years looking at a 3/4" long divot in the sole. I think vinyl is both more tolerant and easier to repair.
            > >
            > > * Lonseal is pricey because of the waste (over 50% waste) in 6' wide sheet goods. I assume PlasTeak is as bad. I'm leaning toward NuTeak or some similar commercial grade products that are laid as individual strips in a bed of epoxy. Waste approaches zero. Also, since it doesn't come on a roll, it doesn't have to be soft enough to roll -- and I think the harder material is a plus.
            > >
            > > * One thing I really liked on both the Formica and the Lonseal installations I looked at was the edges of the bilge access. I was concerned that the edges would get ratty, chipped, peel, etc -- and these installations were many years old and still crisp around the edges.
            > >
            > > With regard to real wood -- in 1972, my father bought a Mariner 40 ketch new. Wall to wall carpet was standard. For an extra $50, you could upgrade to a 3/4" solid teak sole. Even in 1972 dollars, that was a bargain! (yes, he did the upgrade).
            > >
            > > Harry
            > > Analysis
            > > '79 S34-1 #063
            > > Mill Creek, Annapolis
            > >
            > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "mattcragon" <mattcragon@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Greetings,
            > > >
            > > > I am in the throws of ripping up portions of my delaminating sole. Since Burmese Teak is no longer an option, I am forced consider alternatives.
            > > >
            > > > While I am still considering actual wood, I ordered a sample of a PlasTeak's Teak & Ebony stock, which could be a contender. The obvious plus is lack of maintenance, it is really no cheaper than wood, but it may be easier to lay down especially given the curves of the Sabre 34's sole.
            > > >
            > > > My broker thinks going non-wood is bad idea from a resale perspective. I am not really worried about that as I plan to keep the boat forever. I have posted some pics of the swatch in the boat here in the Photos section here...
            > > >
            > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sabresailboat/photos/album/1925830726/pic/list
            > > >
            > > > What do you think about it's looks. I does seem like it might be a little bright compared to the rest of the boat, especially foward, but I think I might have that issue with real teak as well. Lastly would I go to Sabre hell for such sacrilege or dose it really matter.
            > > >
            > > > Matt
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Stephen
            Having just been through a cabin sole replacement, don t underestimate the difficulty of the job or the importance of the bilge stringers. The bilge stringers
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 7, 2012
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              Having just been through a cabin sole replacement, don't underestimate the difficulty of the job or the importance of the bilge stringers.
              The bilge stringers prevent the hull from flexing and the tabbing is crucial. If the stringers are loose, the hull can flex enough to shake off paint when sailing. Hogging when setting the boat on blocks indicates broken tabs on the stringers and usually occurs at the aft end of the bilge.
              We had to have three stringers on our 34MK2 re-tabbed, which required removal and replacement of the cabin sole. The stringer were dry and solid-three tabs were broken and loose, although much of the sole was soft. The tabbing and hull were ground down and tabbing refastened by a real pro in fiberglass at a cost of over $5,000. We had everything replaced to Sabre spec, including encasing the sole support in cloth and resin, and installed teak and holly plywood. The carpenter was able to section the galley cabinet and avoided tearing the entire cabinet out. The new sole looks beautiful and garners many comments, all favorable-especially from Sabre owners.

              Total cost for our repair-in excess of $30,000 ($5,000 for the glass work, $25,000 for removal and replacement of the cabin sole-most of it paid by insurance, thankfully).(In addition, we also did some bulkhead repair and re-seating of mast step bolts which had been improperly installed for the last owner...)
              Throughout the entire process, I was constantly told by my and the insurer's surveyor and the yard to follow factory specs, from sole underlayment, to installation method, to retaining the same red color of the bilge.
              We had seen a little hogging when we stored the boat before-but have none after the repair.
              The stringers may not seem significant, but they, and their tabbing, are!!!
              I have the specs form Sabre for cabin sole installation-it requires a lot of filler, resin and cloth, which complicates both installation and removal!!
            • Bob Jenning
              I m in the wrong business :) From: Stephen To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 2:28 PM Subject:
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 7, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                I'm in the wrong business :)


                From: Stephen <stephen.ouellette@...>
                To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 2:28 PM
                Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Sole Searching for the Best Solution
                 

                Total cost for our repair-in excess of $30,000 ($5,000 for the glass work, $25,000 for removal and replacement of the cabin sole-most of it paid by insurance, thankfully
              • silentrunning17
                I ve been reading your posts each day remembering what it was like doing the very same thing on my Sabre 28 two years ago. I only removed the bad portions of
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 7, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  I've been reading your posts each day remembering what it was like doing the very same thing on my Sabre 28 two years ago. I only removed the bad portions of the sole along with the compression post and all plywood support members under the sole. All of it was done with marine ply, except the post which I made from solid mahogany, triple coated with epoxy and glassed in place. I wanted to reproduce the original slope of the floor to maintain the full headroom. After the repair was done I agonized for months as to what I should install for a finished flooring. My final decision was cork. It feels great on your feet, looks good, is quiet and easy to care for. It is time tested and certainly worth consideration.
                  Tim

                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sailor11767" <sailor11767@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Matt,
                  >
                  > Yes, it's depressing! And it has taken far more time than I expected (but don't they always?). In truth though, it hasn't been "harder" or "more" than expected.
                  >
                  > Here's a recent post I made that has a lot of good stuff:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sabresailboat/message/40338
                  >
                  > Those beams. I have some feelings, but not quite "positions," that are counter to the conventional wisdom about them. To be sure, my new beams are certainly stronger than the old stuff I took out, at least as strong as factory original, and arguably stronger than new. But, I'm not sure that they are the highly critical, super strong element of the hull that most believe them to be -- the evidence is that Sabre didn't think much of them. The original beams were made of plywood, a lousy beam material. They didn't fit them very well to the hull, with voids up to 1/2" or more that they simply filled with putty. The glass overlay was poorly laid. The glass was laid well after the hull was laid up, with very poor bond -- and in places, the glass was laid over Bikini Blue paint! I took the glass apart with a big chisel -- get it under a corner and hammer away (except where I just pulled the glass apart with my hands!)
                  >
                  > My beams were remarkably un-rotten. I have some reservations about the value of the effort I did. I expected that since my bilge had been full of water up to the cabin sole for years before I bought the boat that I would see a lot of rot. For reasons I can't explain, the ribs and mast step were remarkably intact. I drilled exploratory holes and the wood looked good, but I couldn't believe what I saw and tore it all out anyway. There is some blackness, but the wood is firm, the plywood joints are solid -- all in all, not as bad as I expected. I'm at a loss to explain it, and I'm generally glad I replaced it all, but given what I found when I tore it out I'm not sure it was worth the effort.
                  >
                  > Harry
                  > Analysis
                  > '79 S34-I #063
                  > Mill Creek, Annapolis
                  >
                  > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "mattcragon" <mattcragon@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Harry,
                  > >
                  > > I am looking at your pictures and I have to say you are depressing the crap out of me. Damn, that looks like a lot of work. I am still ripping up my sole and I am hoping not to have to rip it all up like you have done.
                  > >
                  > > I think my boat is in a bit better shape as my setee's are solid. and forward of the head seems to be good. I have some rot creep up the mast bulkhead as you did.
                  > >
                  > > It is interesting looking at your sole as my boat is a fin keel. Maybe it is in better shape because the drainage may be a bit better as the keel sump seems to be much more forward and much deeper.
                  > >
                  > > My athwardships supports seem to be OK when I tap them with a hammer except for deep in the bilge where there is a cutaway for drainage. I could probably just replace the lower parts of them. I can see yours were pretty gone. Was that evident when you tapped them or did you discover they were much worse than expected once you cut into them?
                  > >
                  > > I guess I could drill test them as I did the mast step. My mast step seems to to be OK by that test, but I am wondering if I should replace it while I am in there. If you are replacing yours, what materials are you considering?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > At this point I am hoping only to pull up and replace the subfloor from the bulkhead back to where the setees begin.
                  > >
                  > > I think you are right about the laminates. I don't think it will really impact the resale value of the boat in a meaningful way. It is not like they are going for big bucks anymore. I would just as soon not have the future maintenence of wood and not worry about dings and dents or black spots like you said.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for your reply. If you are miserable, you have company.
                  > >
                  > > Matt
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sailor11767" <sailor11767@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Matt,
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm in the middle of the same project, perhaps worse, on my '79 S34 #063. Pictures here: www.photobucket.com/cabinsole and I've been wrestling with the same question. My thoughts:
                  > > >
                  > > > * It's a 30 year old boat, and while a fine yacht and resale value is an issue, it's also a LOOOONG way from showroom. I have seen Lonseal (similar product) installed on a club member's boat, and it doesn't look fake. It may condemn you to Sabre Hell, but it won't kill the (rather limited) resale value of the boat. Just my opinion.
                  > > >
                  > > > * Since real teak and holly is out of reach of all of us, the only question is the flavor of fake. Sorry, but T&H plywood has as much authenticity as Formica. If you can't actually see the seams, you know in an instant it's fake. And speaking of Formica, I spent this past weekend on a Beneteau 44 with a Formica cabin sole -- WOW! 16 years old, looks great. I had seen it a year ago and tried to source it, without luck. Also, it's probably easier to do it on the dead flat sole he has VS our curved sole.
                  > > >
                  > > > * I've seen 5 year old replacement Sabre cabin soles in T&H plywood, with water stains under the varnish. A vinyl floor may be fake and cut resale value, but T&H with black stains I think is worse.
                  > > >
                  > > > * In the first 3 months I owned my boat, I dropped a new exhaust elbow on the T&H plywood sole. I'm VERY glad the sole was rotted and replacement was required, because I spent the next 2 years looking at a 3/4" long divot in the sole. I think vinyl is both more tolerant and easier to repair.
                  > > >
                  > > > * Lonseal is pricey because of the waste (over 50% waste) in 6' wide sheet goods. I assume PlasTeak is as bad. I'm leaning toward NuTeak or some similar commercial grade products that are laid as individual strips in a bed of epoxy. Waste approaches zero. Also, since it doesn't come on a roll, it doesn't have to be soft enough to roll -- and I think the harder material is a plus.
                  > > >
                  > > > * One thing I really liked on both the Formica and the Lonseal installations I looked at was the edges of the bilge access. I was concerned that the edges would get ratty, chipped, peel, etc -- and these installations were many years old and still crisp around the edges.
                  > > >
                  > > > With regard to real wood -- in 1972, my father bought a Mariner 40 ketch new. Wall to wall carpet was standard. For an extra $50, you could upgrade to a 3/4" solid teak sole. Even in 1972 dollars, that was a bargain! (yes, he did the upgrade).
                  > > >
                  > > > Harry
                  > > > Analysis
                  > > > '79 S34-1 #063
                  > > > Mill Creek, Annapolis
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "mattcragon" <mattcragon@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Greetings,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I am in the throws of ripping up portions of my delaminating sole. Since Burmese Teak is no longer an option, I am forced consider alternatives.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > While I am still considering actual wood, I ordered a sample of a PlasTeak's Teak & Ebony stock, which could be a contender. The obvious plus is lack of maintenance, it is really no cheaper than wood, but it may be easier to lay down especially given the curves of the Sabre 34's sole.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > My broker thinks going non-wood is bad idea from a resale perspective. I am not really worried about that as I plan to keep the boat forever. I have posted some pics of the swatch in the boat here in the Photos section here...
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sabresailboat/photos/album/1925830726/pic/list
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What do you think about it's looks. I does seem like it might be a little bright compared to the rest of the boat, especially foward, but I think I might have that issue with real teak as well. Lastly would I go to Sabre hell for such sacrilege or dose it really matter.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Matt
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Stephen
                  No kidding!!! When I saw the estimate, I almost flipped, but the insurer s surveyor thought it within reason and sent a check for it. A lot had to do with the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 8, 2012
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                    No kidding!!!
                    When I saw the estimate, I almost flipped, but the insurer's surveyor thought it within reason and sent a check for it. A lot had to do with the manner in which the sole had to be glued, and honestly, it looks better than original.
                    I bit my tongue-but boy, the yard charged for every little bit they could beyond their estimate!
                  • Me
                    I m wondering, what conditions should be met for insurance to agree to pay for a job like that? You know why I m asking....I will be replacing mine soon :)
                    Message 9 of 24 , Nov 8, 2012
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                      I'm wondering, what conditions should be met for insurance to agree to pay for a job like that? You know why I'm asking....I will be replacing mine soon :)

                      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen" <stephen.ouellette@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > No kidding!!!
                      > When I saw the estimate, I almost flipped, but the insurer's surveyor thought it within reason and sent a check for it. A lot had to do with the manner in which the sole had to be glued, and honestly, it looks better than original.
                      > I bit my tongue-but boy, the yard charged for every little bit they could beyond their estimate!
                      >
                    • Peter Tollini
                      In a project like this, I would recomment marine grade Okume plywood. If you wanted to build a solid base, a layer of fiberglass mat and epoxy between layers
                      Message 10 of 24 , Nov 8, 2012
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                        In a project like this, I would recomment marine grade Okume plywood.  If you wanted to build a solid base, a layer of fiberglass mat and epoxy between layers of plywood builds a bulletproof structure. Just don't plan on disassembling it any time soon.  That is the basic hull lay up for cold molded custom sportfishermen, except they use Kevlar cloth.  You can staple the plywood with a pneumatic stapler and Monel staples to keep it in place while the epoxy sets. The finish layer, teak/holly plywood or synthetic will have to be weighted down rather than stapled
                        The end product should outlive all of us.
                        Pete

                        On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 12:08 PM, mattcragon <mattcragon@...> wrote:
                         



                        Dave,

                        I will make sure to rebuild to the original specs of plywood thickness. Hull flexing is not something I wish as the hull is solid and not supported by coring in the hull. I can't imagine what is there now, rotten and de-laminated plywood is providing much in the way of structural integrity. I guess the lack of apparent consequence to the rot is testimony to the over built nature of these boats, but thank you for your advice. I do want it to be good as new when I am done.

                        Thanks again,

                        Matt



                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Matt,
                        >
                        > The sole of the 34 (and other Sabres) does more than just keep your feet out of the bilge. The sole is an important part of the boats structure, helping to stiffen the hull and spread loads, so you would need to build the sole with the two layers of plywood and then add the PlasTeak.
                        >
                        > I don't know if there is a special place in Sabre hell for some one who replaced the teak sole with plastic teak, but I'm sure there is one for inappropriate use of 5200!
                        >
                        > Dave
                        >
                        >
                        > On Nov 2, 2012, at 10:14 PM, mattcragon wrote:
                        >
                        > > Greetings,
                        > >
                        > > I am in the throws of ripping up portions of my delaminating sole. Since Burmese Teak is no longer an option, I am forced consider alternatives.
                        > >
                        > > While I am still considering actual wood, I ordered a sample of a PlasTeak's Teak & Ebony stock, which could be a contender. The obvious plus is lack of maintenance, it is really no cheaper than wood, but it may be easier to lay down especially given the curves of the Sabre 34's sole.
                        > >
                        > > My broker thinks going non-wood is bad idea from a resale perspective. I am not really worried about that as I plan to keep the boat forever. I have posted some pics of the swatch in the boat here in the Photos section here...
                        > >
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sabresailboat/photos/album/1925830726/pic/list
                        > >
                        > > What do you think about it's looks. I does seem like it might be a little bright compared to the rest of the boat, especially foward, but I think I might have that issue with real teak as well. Lastly would I go to Sabre hell for such sacrilege or dose it really matter.
                        > >
                        > > Matt
                        > >
                        > >
                        >


                      • Jim Starkey
                        I suggest replacing the mast step box with one not made out of biodegradable material before installing said cabin sole. Pity to have to rip it up again to
                        Message 11 of 24 , Nov 8, 2012
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                          I suggest replacing the mast step box with one not made out of biodegradable material before installing said cabin sole.  Pity to have to rip it up again to replace the damn box.

                          On 11/8/2012 5:33 PM, Peter Tollini wrote:
                           
                          In a project like this, I would recomment marine grade Okume plywood.  If you wanted to build a solid base, a layer of fiberglass mat and epoxy between layers of plywood builds a bulletproof structure. Just don't plan on disassembling it any time soon.  That is the basic hull lay up for cold molded custom sportfishermen, except they use Kevlar cloth.  You can staple the plywood with a pneumatic stapler and Monel staples to keep it in place while the epoxy sets. The finish layer, teak/holly plywood or synthetic will have to be weighted down rather than stapled
                          The end product should outlive all of us.
                          Pete

                          On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 12:08 PM, mattcragon <mattcragon@...> wrote:
                           



                          Dave,

                          I will make sure to rebuild to the original specs of plywood thickness. Hull flexing is not something I wish as the hull is solid and not supported by coring in the hull. I can't imagine what is there now, rotten and de-laminated plywood is providing much in the way of structural integrity. I guess the lack of apparent consequence to the rot is testimony to the over built nature of these boats, but thank you for your advice. I do want it to be good as new when I am done.

                          Thanks again,

                          Matt



                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Matt,
                          >
                          > The sole of the 34 (and other Sabres) does more than just keep your feet out of the bilge. The sole is an important part of the boats structure, helping to stiffen the hull and spread loads, so you would need to build the sole with the two layers of plywood and then add the PlasTeak.
                          >
                          > I don't know if there is a special place in Sabre hell for some one who replaced the teak sole with plastic teak, but I'm sure there is one for inappropriate use of 5200!
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          >
                          > On Nov 2, 2012, at 10:14 PM, mattcragon wrote:
                          >
                          > > Greetings,
                          > >
                          > > I am in the throws of ripping up portions of my delaminating sole. Since Burmese Teak is no longer an option, I am forced consider alternatives.
                          > >
                          > > While I am still considering actual wood, I ordered a sample of a PlasTeak's Teak & Ebony stock, which could be a contender. The obvious plus is lack of maintenance, it is really no cheaper than wood, but it may be easier to lay down especially given the curves of the Sabre 34's sole.
                          > >
                          > > My broker thinks going non-wood is bad idea from a resale perspective. I am not really worried about that as I plan to keep the boat forever. I have posted some pics of the swatch in the boat here in the Photos section here...
                          > >
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sabresailboat/photos/album/1925830726/pic/list
                          > >
                          > > What do you think about it's looks. I does seem like it might be a little bright compared to the rest of the boat, especially foward, but I think I might have that issue with real teak as well. Lastly would I go to Sabre hell for such sacrilege or dose it really matter.
                          > >
                          > > Matt
                          > >
                          > >
                          >



                        • josrulz_2001
                          To Jim S s point, when we rebuilt our mast step box a few years ago, we used Delrin. It was expensive stuff, but it will never rot, and I think well worth it.
                          Message 12 of 24 , Nov 8, 2012
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                            To Jim S's point, when we rebuilt our mast step box a few years ago, we used Delrin. It was expensive stuff, but it will never rot, and I think well worth it.
                            -Jim
                            1984 Sabre 34, #207

                            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jstarkey@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I suggest replacing the mast step box with one not made out of
                            > biodegradable material before installing said cabin sole. Pity to have
                            > to rip it up again to replace the damn box.
                            >
                            > On 11/8/2012 5:33 PM, Peter Tollini wrote:
                            > > In a project like this, I would recomment marine grade Okume plywood.
                            > > If you wanted to build a solid base, a layer of fiberglass mat and
                            > > epoxy between layers of plywood builds a bulletproof structure. Just
                            > > don't plan on disassembling it any time soon. That is the basic hull
                            > > lay up for cold molded custom sportfishermen, except they use Kevlar
                            > > cloth. You can staple the plywood with a pneumatic stapler and Monel
                            > > staples to keep it in place while the epoxy sets. The finish layer,
                            > > teak/holly plywood or synthetic will have to be weighted down rather
                            > > than stapled
                            > > The end product should outlive all of us.
                            > > Pete
                            > >
                            > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 12:08 PM, mattcragon <mattcragon@...
                            > > <mailto:mattcragon@...>> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Dave,
                            > >
                            > > I will make sure to rebuild to the original specs of plywood
                            > > thickness. Hull flexing is not something I wish as the hull is
                            > > solid and not supported by coring in the hull. I can't imagine
                            > > what is there now, rotten and de-laminated plywood is providing
                            > > much in the way of structural integrity. I guess the lack of
                            > > apparent consequence to the rot is testimony to the over built
                            > > nature of these boats, but thank you for your advice. I do want it
                            > > to be good as new when I am done.
                            > >
                            > > Thanks again,
                            > >
                            > > Matt
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                            > > <mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>, Dave Lochner
                            > > <davelochner@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Matt,
                            > > >
                            > > > The sole of the 34 (and other Sabres) does more than just keep
                            > > your feet out of the bilge. The sole is an important part of the
                            > > boats structure, helping to stiffen the hull and spread loads, so
                            > > you would need to build the sole with the two layers of plywood
                            > > and then add the PlasTeak.
                            > > >
                            > > > I don't know if there is a special place in Sabre hell for some
                            > > one who replaced the teak sole with plastic teak, but I'm sure
                            > > there is one for inappropriate use of 5200!
                            > > >
                            > > > Dave
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > On Nov 2, 2012, at 10:14 PM, mattcragon wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > Greetings,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I am in the throws of ripping up portions of my delaminating
                            > > sole. Since Burmese Teak is no longer an option, I am forced
                            > > consider alternatives.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > While I am still considering actual wood, I ordered a sample
                            > > of a PlasTeak's Teak & Ebony stock, which could be a contender.
                            > > The obvious plus is lack of maintenance, it is really no cheaper
                            > > than wood, but it may be easier to lay down especially given the
                            > > curves of the Sabre 34's sole.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > My broker thinks going non-wood is bad idea from a resale
                            > > perspective. I am not really worried about that as I plan to keep
                            > > the boat forever. I have posted some pics of the swatch in the
                            > > boat here in the Photos section here...
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sabresailboat/photos/album/1925830726/pic/list
                            > > > >
                            > > > > What do you think about it's looks. I does seem like it might
                            > > be a little bright compared to the rest of the boat, especially
                            > > foward, but I think I might have that issue with real teak as
                            > > well. Lastly would I go to Sabre hell for such sacrilege or dose
                            > > it really matter.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Matt
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • charly470
                            Can anyone post the details of how to build and attach a new sole?
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 25, 2014
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                              Can anyone post the details of how to build and attach a new sole?
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