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Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: MFD/chartplotter advice

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  • Godwin Jones
    So now on Saturday morning, you can recline in your Lazy Boy and send your boat out sailing controlling everything from there. Pretty soon now the guys out on
    Message 1 of 54 , Jun 1, 2012
      So now on Saturday morning, you can recline in your Lazy Boy and send your boat out sailing controlling everything from there.  Pretty soon now the guys out on the mooring will arrive at the marina, pull out the pc and have the boat release it's mooring line and come to the dock to pick them up.  Or maybe they just relax and send the boat out for a few hours.


      Sent from my iPad

      On Jun 1, 2012, at 5:47 PM, Jim Starkey <jstarkey@...> wrote:


      Here's what I have on my boat:

      • ST60 speed, depth, wind all connected into Seatalk network
      • Autopilot connected to Seatalk with NMEA-183 fast header reference to chart plotter
      • A wireless remote tied into Seatalk (an a backup wired remote)
      • E120W chart plotter connected to all of the above plus Ethernet to radar and a wireless access point
      • A Seatalk/NMEA-183 gateway to connect PC to Seatalk data
      • A Camino AIS transceiver to be connected E120W w/ 38.4k NMEA 183 and PC over RS-232
      • A PC connected to Seatalk gateway, E120W, AIS, and a Garmin portable on the binnacle
      • An iPad that autosyncs Navionics to the E120W

      OK, everything talks to everything.  I can take the remote to the bow when I drop the anchor to watch the depth without yelling back to my wife.  And I can take the remote to the bow in a dense Maine fog and dodge pot buoys.  The windspeed can show true or apparent, the chart plotter can overlay radar and chart, and the chart plotter tells when a nut with AIS is going to run into me and the name of the boat.  I can sprawl on a bunk in the morning laying out a route on the iPad, sync it E120W, download to the PC, and download again to the Garmin at the helm.  Then everything runs autonomously.

      No, we don't have a wireless Rockna or a networked anchor windlass.

      We once sailed from the Monhegan steamer mooring to Boothbay Harbor Yacht club float without seeing land with a compass and flasher depth sounder.  I can do that.  The problem is that with all this neat stuff, the profoundly clueless are now out in the fog when they used to cower safely in harbors.  And, yeah, I'm a geek.  What can I say?

      On 6/1/2012 4:10 PM, sailor11767 wrote:


      Slight hijack of the thread here, but it's close. I am preparing to upgrade my Kenyon instruments (is upgrade the right word when my depth doesn't work, my speed barely works, and it's all 30 years old??). Anyway, I'm wanting to go to new depth, speed, and wind, and I'd like to use it to control my old autopilot as well.

      My take on "interoperability" is perhaps different from yours.

      Everyone uses the same Airmar DST800 transducer for depth, speed, and temp, and it speaks N2K.

      Most use N2K for wind (although Ray seems to need a translator to get to N2K -- but however it is made, it hits the backbone as N2K).

      Since all use N2K for wind, you can skip their wind instruments and buy Airmar's PB200 for N2K and 0183 (both) wind, gps, barometer, compass, pitch, and roll (and maybe stock market ticker, but I'm not sure about that).

      I believe all AIS receivers output on NMEA.

      None "speak" to PC's, although Actisense makes a variety of translators in the $100-200 range to feed the entire backbone to a PC.

      None output 0183 for my old autopilot, but again Actisense will do that.

      The data sharing with a chart plotter is almost trivial -- 0183 or N2K are both suitable.

      What am I missing? Or, what questions should I be asking? What interoperability questions should I be concerned about? Short of getting radar (not very likely!), I'm not sure what other instruments would be on the horizon. Since most systems (even Garmin) have begun to use N2K as their primary backbone, how can they be incompatible?


      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jstarkey@...> wrote:
      > Wrong question.
      > In marine instrumentation, the name of the game is system integration,
      > not individual instruments. While there is a degree of interoperability
      > (NMEA 183, NMEA 2000), none of the instrument vendors play well with
      > others. So the question shouldn't be who has the best/cheapest radar or
      > best/cheapest chart plotter or best/cheapest wind instruments, but the
      > much more difficult question of who has the best/cheapest/most open/most
      > complete product line.
      > This, of course, stinks, but that is the way NMEA and its members want
      > to be: Winner take all.
      > You need to choose a single company that will allow you to and and
      > upgrade components incrementally without having to throw the old stuff
      > out. And one of the components you will want to add sooner or later is
      > a PC below.
      > I ordered my S36 with a Datamarine package. I kicked myself for a half
      > dozen years for not going with Datamarine integrated system, Dart. Then
      > Datamarine died and I congratulated myself on my wisdom. Later, I
      > became increasingly impressed with Garmin's aviation products, so when
      > my Furuno radar died, I went with a Garmin radar and 4212 chart
      > plotter. The radar was excellent, the chart plotter much less so (more
      > later). My next boat came with a fully integrated Raymarine products.
      > When I had the, er, unexpected opportunity to upgrade, I went with a
      > Raymarine HD radar and an E120W.
      > So, having dealt with each company over an extended period, two trends
      > are apparent:
      > 1. Garmin is getting increasingly insular and increasingly anti-PC.
      > They've moved their smart guys to the Avionics division, which is
      > going great guns and is wildly profitable.
      > 2. Raymarine is getting increasing open and increasingly PC and iPad
      > friendly.
      > Raymarine did have a near-death experience a couple of years ago, but
      > got rescued. Their new line of products are both neck turners and
      > backwards compatible with earlier generations.
      > On 6/1/2012 11:29 AM, Bennett Kaufman wrote:
      > >
      > > I am NOT trying to start any chartplotter/MFD wars, but:
      > > I am finally thinking of upgrading my ancient (but still functional)
      > > RAYTHEON (yes, Raytheon, not even Raymarine) chartplotter/radar
      > > system. I am considering either the Garmin 740 (7" screen)and
      > > associated 18" radome, or the Raymarine C90W (9" screen)/radome. There
      > > is only about a $30 difference in price where I can source either one.
      > > So what I am looking for is some feedback from folks who have either
      > > unit as to robustness, ease of use, brightness of screen (especially
      > > in daylight), ergonomics, etc.
      > > Thanx in advance for any input.
      > > ben kaufman, CARACOL (S36 #52)
      > >
      > >
      > --
      > Jim Starkey
      > Founder and CTO
      > NuoDB, Inc.

      Jim Starkey
      Founder and CTO
      NuoDB, Inc.

    • Jan
      OFF TOPIC- but an interesting aside for touch screens Eveytime I hear about touch screens the following comes to mind. The City of San Diego built a new sludge
      Message 54 of 54 , Jun 4, 2012
        OFF TOPIC- but an interesting aside for touch screens

        Eveytime I hear about touch screens the following comes to mind.

        The City of San Diego built a new sludge plant a few years back for handling sewage solids. At the end of the line the processed material was pumped into very large bins under which semi-trucks would be placed for loading from gates operated by, you guessed it, TOUCH SCREENS. When leaks developed in the system, sludge would sometimes be released way up high which would drip down on the screens. One day when this happened, one of the maintainence guys assigned to cleaning up the building (that should tell you something about how high up the management ladder he had climbed) noticed the slop on the screens and promply wiped it off. This immediately caused several truck loads of what used to be "crap" to fill up the empty truck bay below. Now the rest of the staff was called and they spent the day using an end-loader to clean up the mess!

        Oh, and I believe a Change Order was given to the contractor to build a roof over the control screens. It seems the engineers were not too bright either when it came to anticipating what is possible with a city maintainence worker!

        Jan (former construction manager- retired) S38 MkI

        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey <jstarkey@...> wrote:
        > For what it is worth, the touch screen controls on Raymarine are backed
        > up with physical buttons. In slop, you can disable the touch screen
        > altogether. In any case, autopilot functions must be performed with
        > physical buttons.
        > On Garmin MFDs, it either all touch screen or all physical buttons based
        > on the model.
        > Somebody at Raymarine thought this through.
        > I wouldn't worry about GPS interference. Given the absurd number of GPS
        > receives we walk around with, if there was a problem, you wouldn't have
        > found your restaurant for dinner.
        > I have a GPS in a Droid-X, one on my iPad, one in my Prius, one in my
        > wife's iPhone, a fix and a portable in N28434, a fixed on my rail,
        > another in a Garmin portable at the helm. And two Bluetooth GPSs in
        > case I need them. This is crazy! It is simple impossible to get lost.
        > On 6/3/2012 8:48 PM, Bennett Kaufman wrote:
        > >
        > > Thanx for your comments. The touchscreen vs. buttons issue is moot,
        > > since I was considering the C90, not the E90; the C90 does not have a
        > > touchscreen. I do have a Raystar 125, and can hook that up to the
        > > Raymarine, if I get that. Actually, I WAS wondering if putting a
        > > chartplotter with an internal GPS antenna, like the C90 or the Garmin,
        > > into a pod would interfere with reception of the GPS signals.
        > > ben kaufman, CARACOL
        > > --- On *Sat, 6/2/12, rayjanine2002 /<rayjanine@...>/* wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > From: rayjanine2002 <rayjanine@...>
        > > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: MFD/chartplotter advice
        > > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 9:58 PM
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Ben:
        > >
        > > I have a Raymarine E90W Chartplotter, Raymarine Raystar 125 Plus,
        > > and a Raymarine digital radar 18" radome RD418HD 4KW. To answer
        > > some of your questions:
        > >
        > > daylight visibility of the screen - excellent even with Polarized
        > > SunGlasses. The view from the side is also excellent. It is
        > > mounted on my pedestal near my wheel and I would not want to put
        > > it anywhere else. During rough weather it was perfect to have it
        > > there.
        > >
        > > ease of use (are the touch-screen icons a pain in a seaway or for
        > > folks with fat fingers?) The touch-screen is excellent and much
        > > better than using the buttons. This unit has both. I was in 13 ft
        > > seas and still used the touch-screen since you can zoom in on
        > > objects so when you touch the screen my fat fingers hit the
        > > targets I want them to hit.
        > >
        > > general ergonomics - excellent. Setting a MOB point is a breeze
        > > and also entering waypoints. You can also change the view of the
        > > screen really easily from 2D to 3D and also from heading up to
        > > course up.
        > >
        > > problems in operation (if any)- None so far.
        > >
        > > ease of installation, including how to mount the MFD at the
        > > binnacle. I bought a Navpod GP5052 pre cut for a C90W that worked
        > > really well for my E90W. The cost was $316.90. It installed fairly
        > > easily. I also replaced my pedestal using an Edson Pedestal Guard
        > > Kit 1620-45-58A so the wiring from the chartplotter to the radar
        > > and other electronics was easy.
        > >
        > > Please note that I have a Sabre 362 so your installation and cable
        > > running from the pedestal to the rest of your boat may not be the
        > > same.
        > >
        > > Take care and good luck on your decision.
        > >
        > > Ray
        > >
        > > Second Wind
        > > 1993 Sabre 362
        > >
        > >
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