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Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Sole replacement / repair

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  • Leonard Bertaux
    Alan Do you mean a visual or structural inspection? Have your surveyor conduct a careful visual inspection to look for signs of trouble. This could be loose
    Message 1 of 53 , Jan 2 2:02 PM
      Do you mean a visual or structural inspection? Have your surveyor conduct a careful visual inspection to look for signs of trouble. This could be loose tanning, color differences, or other signs of distress. Ask him to also percussion whatever may be reachable. This is the best indication of sound, bonded glass short of drilling out the stringers. If there is cause for concern it should be evident in these. 

      Leonard Bertaux

      Sent from my iPhone,

      On Jan 2, 2011, at 2:29 PM, "allan.jarvis1" <apjarvis@...> wrote:


      Are stringer problems also an issues on S28s?

      I ask having just purchased a 1976 boat that surveyed to be in good condition, but there were no comment on the condition of the stringers (if they exist in the S28, Mk IIs). If there are stringers in these hulls, and if they can be an issue, then how do I go about having them inspected?



      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "fs3873" <jsts@...> wrote:
      > I have been shopping for a Sabre 34 MK II or 36 MK I that were built in the 1980's, and have repeatedly come across boats that have rotted soles. At first glance the soles look good, but when the underside is inspected rot can be found that starts from the bottom and works its way up. The sole on some will flex when walked on which gives the problem away, other times it is discovered only by reaching under the sole. Additionally the rot that I am mentioning can be found not just by the mast step buy on more than 50% of the floor some times.
      > I have spoken with brokers who say the sole looks fine as far as they can tell, but when I press them to please look at the underside of the sole before you waste my time traveling to see the boat, they confess that there is some rot on the underside.
      > I have also learned that the stringers that are encased in fiberglass, run the risk of rotting from the inside out, and this is not something that can be observe, as the outer fiberglass hides the damage.
      > So, my questions are these:
      > 1. How can you be sure that the stringers are not rotted internally?
      > 2. If it is determined that the stringers are good, how much of the interior needs to be removed to replace the sole? If the sole end at the base of the settee seats, and not too much goes under the cabinetry then replacement might not be too terribly difficult.
      > 3. I have seen Early Lights sole replacement job. He did a great job, but could it be done just as easily with 3/4 teak and holly plywood?
      > 4. How was the original floor attached to the stringers? It appears that the original floor is 3/4 plywood, but there are no visible screws. Was it originally glued in place, and is that a possible method of replacement?
      > Thanks for any input. I truly love the Sabre's but this mast step rot, and sole problem is leading me to start seriously considering another boat manufacturer.
      > Thanks Again
      > John

    • Gib Metcalf
      For a minute I was imagining bits of dried fish on the underside of the drawers. And all this time I thought that smell was my holding tank. Gib ... Gilbert
      Message 53 of 53 , Feb 3, 2011
        For a minute I was imagining bits of dried fish on the underside of the drawers.  And all this time I thought that smell was my holding tank.

        Gilbert E. Metcalf

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Feb 3, 2011, at 6:32 PM, "Bruce Heyman"<bruceheyman@...> wrote:


        Look at your drawer bottoms.  Sometimes they used scrap sole to finish of the drawers.

        Bruce Heyman
        (949) 289-8400

        -----Original message-----
        From: Phillip Shepard <phillipshepard97@...>
        Thu, Feb 3, 2011 22:34:18 GMT+00:00
        Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Sole replacement / repair


        I am looking for a small piece of old teak and holly sole- roughly 12" x 18".  If anyone has a piece I would be happy to pay for the packing and shipping. All you have to do is take the piece to one of these places that packs up anything and ships it for a price.
              Thanks for your help.       Phil

        From: Jim Starkey <jstarkey@...>
        To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, January 4, 2011 1:58:39 PM
        Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Sole replacement / repair


        Perhaps that is the current regime, but I visited the factory while my
        S36 was being built, watched, and talked to the guy who was finishing my
        deck, which was most certainly not fitted to the hull. The hull was in
        a different bay. The bulkhead, engine beds, and cabin sole were in
        place and furniture was being installed. The engine was still in the
        engine shop undergoing preparation.

        On 1/4/2011 9:39 AM, Bentley Collins wrote:
        > The sole on all Sabre's is laid first then furniture is placed on top of
        > the sole, and mechanically fastened in place. The sole is not trimmed
        > around the furniture.
        > Another item that came up yesterday is that the deck is only out down
        > once it is not fitted removed and replaced as someone suggested
        > yesterday.
        > Bentley Collins
        > VP Marketing and Sales
        > Sabre and Back Cove Yachts
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sailor11767
        > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 8:26 AM
        > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Sole replacement / repair
        > Jim,
        > Your response scares me! Could Sabre have changed over the years? I
        > haven't actually pulled my cabin sole yet, so I don't have rock solid
        > data, but things "look" the way I described it, at least so far. I
        > don't see any sole making it into the areas behind the settees, or in
        > the bottom "cubby's" in the galley or nav station. In fact, as I
        > recall, there is a glass webbing between the hull and the back side of
        > the settee "wall."
        > It is very possible that they put in the sole, then placed the
        > cabinetry, then cut the sole flush with the back side of the cabinetry,
        > and then placed that glass tabbing. It would look just like what I see.
        > If it is the order you describe, and then I cut out the sole using a
        > Fein (clone), I would in essence leave an "O-ring" of plywood, 1/2"
        > wide, under all the furniture. I'm not sure I like that thought! I'm
        > going to have to do some more sleuthing -- this could really change the
        > effort for the project.
        > Here's hoping that mine doesn't match your description!
        > Harry
        > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Jim Starkey<jstarkey@...> wrote:
        >> On 1/3/2011 10:33 AM, John Callis wrote:
        >>> Thanks for all of your help, and in this email I have found what I
        >>> have been hoping for. If the sole went in last and does not extend
        >>> under the cabinetry then it should come out without too much
        > trouble.
        >>> I think that there may be an issue with getting a large enough piece
        >>> of teak and holly plywood through the companionway, so I may have to
        >>> do it in two pieces.
        >> Sabres are built like this:
        >> 1. After molding, the hull and deck are temporarily joined.
        >> 2. The stringers, bulkhead, and cabin sole are installed. Now the
        >> hull is rigid.
        >> 3. The deck is removed and finished at waist level.
        >> 4. The furniture, i.e. cabinetry, and engine are installed
        >> 5. The deck and hull are re-mated for finishing.
        >> And, yes, if there's a dinette, the sole extends under it. Removal of
        >> the dinette pieces, however, is simple and straightforward.
        >>> Any more insight will be greatly appreciated. I would do my job
        > just
        >>> like Dick did, but will try to use teak and holly ply.
        >>> I still need an estimate on the price of the job, to help me
        > negotiate
        >>> a deal
        >>> Thanks
        >>> John
        >>> ----- Original Message -----
        >>> *From:* sailor11767<mailto:HarryK@...>
        >>> *To:* Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        >>> <mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
        >>> *Sent:* Monday, January 03, 2011 8:11 AM
        >>> *Subject:* [SabreSailboat] Re: Sole replacement / repair
        >>> I don't have people do work for me. It's a personal problem
        >>> (actually, I'm more than a little serious on that!). I rebuild
        > my
        >>> own engines, build kitchen cabinets from scratch, replace roofs,
        >>> etc. What I DON'T do is sail... As a result, I have very little
        >>> idea what it takes to pay people to do things.
        >>> Anyway, if you are only doing from the mast back, and there is
        >>> little else that is bad, the job is really quite simple. Dick's
        >>> web site provides a lot of insight. Note that he did it the hard
        >>> way -- he wanted to match his existing floor, so he
        > painstakingly
        >>> cut individual planks of teak and holly to the exact thickness
        > and
        >>> width, and then glued them in place. If you aren't trying to do
        >>> that (part of why I'm doing the entire sole), then the top layer
        >>> is just 1/4" plywood (or, take a page from J/Boats and use
        >>> Plasteak for a maintenance free sole). It is important to
        > realize
        >>> that the sole went in last, after all the cabinetry, so it can
        >>> easily come out first. The settees, bulkheads, nav station, etc.
        >>> do not have to be removed. The thin little strip of trim (1/2"
        >>> thick?) that passes as "baseboard" is there to cover the joint
        >>> between the sole and the cabinetry. Take that out, remove the
        >>> sole, cut and fit a new one, done. And if you stay aft of the
        >>> mast, the curve issues are greatly reduced, making the job
        > easier.
        >>> Hope this helps a little more.
        >>> Harry
        >>> --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        >>> <mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>, John Callis<jsts@>
        >>> wrote:
        >>> >
        >>> > That's a great suggestion, and one that I have been
        > considering.
        >>> The first step which will be tricky is getting a solid quote on
        >>> the repair and reducing the price by that much. The seller in my
        >>> case already believes that he is selling the boat too cheap "his
        >>> opinion", and many others have suggested that the job could cost
        >>> as much as $10,000. Is $10,000 a realistic guess to replace the
        >>> sole from the mast back to the galley sink provided the stingers
        >>> are good. This would be a piece that is about 6 feet long and 4
        >>> feet wide. The sole from the companion way ladder to the galley
        >>> sink is good, and there is already a factory seam there.
        >>> >
        >>> > John
        >>> >
        >>> >
        >>> >
        >>> > ----- Original Message -----
        >>> > From: sailor11767
        >>> > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        >>> <mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>
        >>> > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 11:03 PM
        >>> > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Sole replacement / repair
        >>> >
        >>> >
        >>> >
        >>> > If you can get a really solid quote on the repair price, then
        >>> taking it off the price of the boat is a very good idea. In
        >>> addition to the quality/motivation issue already mentioned, I'd
        >>> add a couple more benefits:
        >>> > * You may decide to do it yourself. A substantial bit of
        > "sweat
        >>> equity" with a major emphasis on the "sweat" part. I'm looking
        > at
        >>> this job starting next winter, and it's going to be a big one.
        > I'm
        >>> doing 100%, so there won't be any matching issues.
        >>> > * You can put it off a season or two. This allows you to sail
        >>> the boat today, address other issues, and develop a more
        > thorough
        >>> understanding of other work items that may/should be done at the
        >>> same time.
        >>> > * In my case, I have blocks wedged between the hull and sole
        > to
        >>> support it. While it is quite rotten, it is also very sail-able
        > as is.
        >>> >
        >>> > Good luck with it!
        >>> >
        >>> > Harry Keith
        >>> > Rantum Scoot
        >>> > '79 S34-I #063
        >>> > Luce Creek, Annapolis
        >>> >
        >>> > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        >>> <mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>, John Callis<jsts@>
        > wrote:
        >>> > >
        >>> > > Dave
        >>> > >
        >>> > > As you mentioned in the cb version the stringers are glassed
        >>> to the hull, so does that mean that the stringers are likely in
        >>> good condition?
        >>> > >
        >>> > > Does anyone know if those limber holes were coated with
        > epoxy
        >>> to prevent water infiltration
        >>> > >
        >>> > > Gene Barnes is the surveyor that I have made contact with,
        > and
        >>> I hope to have him look at the boat, and hopefully the stringers
        >>> are good. I will then need to decide if I would be best to have
        >>> the yard fix the sole at the sellers expense and pay more for
        > the
        >>> boat,or maybe I should take possession of the boat at a
        > discounted
        >>> price, and try to tackle the sole next winter.
        >>> > >
        >>> > > Thanks Again for your help
        >>> > > John
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > > ----- Original Message -----
        >>> > > From: Dave Lochner
        >>> > > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        >>> <mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>
        >>> > > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 9:14 AM
        >>> > > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Sole replacement / repair
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > > John,
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > > A bad cabin sole is not necessarily a deal breaker. It can
        > be
        >>> a good bargaining point. The repair is going to be in the 10-12K
        >>> range if professionally done and then there is the hassle
        > factor.
        >>> If you otherwise like the boat, reduce your offer.
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > > Gene Barnes is an excellent surveyor who knows Sabres inside
        >>> and out. A day spent with him doing a survey will be most
        >>> instructive. He's in the Marblehead area, don't know how far he
        >>> will travel.
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > > Dave
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > > On Dec 31, 2010, at 8:02 PM, THOMPSON, GREGORY wrote:
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > >
        >>> > > A couple of things, first Dick sells himself short. I think
        >>> any of us would love to have him maintaining our boat. I would
        >>> include a plan for drainage in whatever you decide. I used west
        >>> system on all of the exposed end grain of the cabin sole. I also
        >>> drilled a 1/2 inch hole through the step and used west system to
        >>> fix a copper tube that allows any water that come in through the
        >>> mast to drain in the bilge. We have not had any issues since I
        > did
        >>> this. Others on the list can speak more eloquently to other
        >>> drainage methods. Having said this, make sure the step is not
        >>> rotted also. If it is, you can have a yard build a new one as
        >>> Starkey did. Solid fiberglass as I recall. Not a bad idea if you
        >>> have everything pulled out.
        >>> > > For myself, I would really look at the whole boat and decide
        >>> if the time, money and effort put into a new sole/step is worth
        >>> it. If everything else has been well maintained, you will love
        >>> sailing the boat. This is the nice thing about our Sabres. They
        >>> point. They sail downwind. They sail in light air. They are
        >>> balanced. Every time I have a friend helm Kestrel, they comment
        > on
        >>> how nice she is to drive. So, if you love everything else, get
        > the
        >>> sole and mast step(if needed) repaired and decide which type of
        >>> rum to keep aboard. My vote is Ron Zacapa 23 You will love
        > owning
        >>> your boat.
        >>> > >
        >>> > > Greg T.
        >>> > > Kestrel
        >>> > > S 38 Mk1 #42
        >>> > >
        >>> >
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