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Sabre vs Beneteau

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  • flroots
    I m looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 1, 2011
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      I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
      Pete
    • oldsailor36@verizon.net
      Pete, The overall answer to your question as to the choice between a Sabre and Beneteau is not found in a detail accounting of their comparative virtues, but
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 1, 2011
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        Pete,

        The overall answer to your question as to the choice between a Sabre and Beneteau is not found in a detail accounting of their comparative virtues, but rather in an evaluation of things less tangible.

        I think Bently Collins, Sabre's Marketing Manager, summed it up nicely when he was asked what kind of person buys a Sabre 386. His response was:

        "Typically they are mature sailors. They have been boat owners for 15 years or more," which is basically true for any boat of this size and cost but then he added, "They are people who have grown up with certain aesthetic standards."

        While he was referring specifically to the buyers of 386s, his last reason is one that applies to most if not all of those who have bought Sabres over the years.

        Happy New Year!

        Jer

         

         

        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:

        >
        > I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
        > Pete
        >

      • r.cucchiara@att.net
        consider resale in 10 years: Check yachtworld and see how many beneteaus there are for sale of a given size and year. That helps me understand why a buyer can
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 1, 2011
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          consider resale in 10 years:
          Check yachtworld and see how many beneteaus there are for sale of a given size and year. That helps me understand why a buyer can get a good deal but a seller has a problem getting much back on his investment.



          From: "oldsailor36@..." <oldsailor36@...>
          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 7:25:30 AM
          Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Sabre vs Beneteau

           


           

          Pete,

          The overall answer to your question as to the choice between a Sabre and Beneteau is not found in a detail accounting of their comparative virtues, but rather in an evaluation of things less tangible.

          I think Bently Collins, Sabre's Marketing Manager, summed it up nicely when he was asked what kind of person buys a Sabre 386. His response was:

          "Typically they are mature sailors. They have been boat owners for 15 years or more," which is basically true for any boat of this size and cost but then he added, "They are people who have grown up with certain aesthetic standards."

          While he was referring specifically to the buyers of 386s, his last reason is one that applies to most if not all of those who have bought Sabres over the years.

          Happy New Year!

          Jer

           

           

          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:

          >
          > I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
          > Pete
          >

        • Daniel Trainor
          What year range are you looking at. ... -- Dan
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 1, 2011
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            What year range are you looking at.

            On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 5:11 AM, flroots <flroots@...> wrote:
             

            I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
            Pete




            --
            Dan

          • Dave Lochner
            Pete, The broker is probably correct, for the money the Beneteau is a fine boat, would rather have a Beneteau than a Hunter. Beneteau is able to a build less
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 1, 2011
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              Pete,

              The broker is probably correct, for the money the Beneteau is a fine boat, would rather have a Beneteau than a Hunter.

              Beneteau is able to a build less expensive boats for several reasons, one, they are a big company and can achieve economies of scale. Most if not all of the wood is cut by computer guided machines and shipped to the US from France. This reduces production costs. I'm pretty sure that Beneteaus use fiberglass interiors that are then surfaced with wood where as Sabres are (or at least used to be) stick built boats. The wood furniture is structural as well as functional. This adds cost to the production process.

              You will probably find that Sabres are more sea kindly boats than Beneteaus. The plumb bow will tend to slam through waves rather than ride up and over them.

              Once at anchor in the islands with a Beneteau you will look like just another Moorings charter. Not so with a Sabre.

              Dave


              On Jan 1, 2011, at 5:11 AM, flroots wrote:

               

              I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
              Pete


            • Suzanne Ellis
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 1, 2011
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                Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:

                >Pete,
                >
                >The broker is probably correct, for the money the Beneteau is a fine boat, would rather have a Beneteau than a Hunter.
                >
                >Beneteau is able to a build less expensive boats for several reasons, one, they are a big company and can achieve economies of scale. Most if not all of the wood is cut by computer guided machines and shipped to the US from France. This reduces production costs. I'm pretty sure that Beneteaus use fiberglass interiors that are then surfaced with wood where as Sabres are (or at least used to be) stick built boats. The wood furniture is structural as well as functional. This adds cost to the production process.
                >
                >You will probably find that Sabres are more sea kindly boats than Beneteaus. The plumb bow will tend to slam through waves rather than ride up and over them.
                >
                >Once at anchor in the islands with a Beneteau you will look like just another Moorings charter. Not so with a Sabre.
                >
                >Dave
                >
                >
                >On Jan 1, 2011, at 5:11 AM, flroots wrote:
                >
                >I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                >Pete
                >
                >
                >
              • David Evans
                For shoal draft, the Bene will have a wing keel; the Sabre probably a CB. Last winter in the Keys (not in a Sabre) we discovered that wing keels can act like
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 1, 2011
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                  For shoal draft, the Bene will have a wing keel; the Sabre probably a CB.
                  Last winter in the Keys (not in a Sabre) we discovered that wing keels can
                  act like the anchors they resemble. I find the CB to be an excellent
                  compromise and has better polars than a wing. The early Firsts were nice
                  boats, but for our tastes, the Sabres are more what a sailboat should look
                  and feel like.
                  dge
                  34 Mk II

                  > What year range are you looking at.
                  >
                  > On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 5:11 AM, flroots <flroots@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We
                  >> plan
                  >> to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to
                  >> Puerto
                  >> Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He
                  >> recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested
                  >> in
                  >> knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction,
                  >> seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                  >> Pete
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Dan
                  >
                • Jim Starkey
                  Wood? On a Beneteau? The recent Beneteau 40 I chartered had only bland, simulated wood grain and plastic below. Aside from a short token teak rail
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 1, 2011
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                    Wood?  On a Beneteau?  The recent Beneteau 40 I chartered had only bland, simulated wood grain and plastic below.  Aside from a short token teak rail amidships, there was nothing on the boat identifiable as a forestry product.  Perhaps the composite matrix below the simulated wood grain was a lumber by-product, but you never know.

                    A few more observations:  The current crop of Beneteaus have an extremely shallow bilge and high aspect keels with a bulbs at the end.  They roll like crazy.  My siblings were mostly green as limes anchored off the Baths.  A heavier boat would have experienced a light chop.  The boats are mostly designed for the charter trade -- maximum berths, minimal stowage, six and a half days in and out, and a quick turnaround.  That's not the way normal people live.

                    In matters of theology, I'm inclined to argue against the existence of a soul.  Nevertheless, a Sabre has a soul and a Beneteau does not.  I don't know how that fits in "the most boat for the money", but it should.

                    Finally, the phrase "most boat for the money" is terrifying close to "a lot of boat for the money", which is broker for, "this is a pig in a poke that will bankrupt you before it hits the water and sinks."

                    A smaller, better boat is almost always preferable to "a lot of boat for the money."


                    On 1/1/2011 9:47 AM, Dave Lochner wrote:
                    Pete,

                    The broker is probably correct, for the money the Beneteau is a fine boat, would rather have a Beneteau than a Hunter.

                    Beneteau is able to a build less expensive boats for several reasons, one, they are a big company and can achieve economies of scale. Most if not all of the wood is cut by computer guided machines and shipped to the US from France. This reduces production costs. I'm pretty sure that Beneteaus use fiberglass interiors that are then surfaced with wood where as Sabres are (or at least used to be) stick built boats. The wood furniture is structural as well as functional. This adds cost to the production process.

                    You will probably find that Sabres are more sea kindly boats than Beneteaus. The plumb bow will tend to slam through waves rather than ride up and over them.

                    Once at anchor in the islands with a Beneteau you will look like just another Moorings charter. Not so with a Sabre.

                    Dave


                    On Jan 1, 2011, at 5:11 AM, flroots wrote:

                     

                    I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                    Pete



                  • john kalinowski
                    having sailed both, the responses you have recieved are very good.   Things to think about.   1. The Sabre is MUCH better in nasty seas, esspecially
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 1, 2011
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                      having sailed both, the responses you have recieved are very good.
                       
                      Things to think about.
                       
                      1. The Sabre is MUCH better in nasty seas, esspecially the newer Benneteaus.  That destoryer bow hunts all over the place in a sloppy seas. It wears you down at the helm.  I find I am good for maybe 2-3 hours before I need a break compared to 5-7 hours on a Sabre.  To me, it is the nautical version of my jeeps.  You don't understand what the engineers were thinking until you find yourself in some nasty weather. Then it all makes sense..
                       
                      2. The Benneteau has a big wide cockpit. Great for cocktails, a real pia in heavy seas.  Very hard for any dodger to keep you dry, and if you get knocked down, it is not as safe.  I know on the 423, when you are beating to weather, the *&^% wave busting off the bow flies high into the air (the hull does not deflect it to the side) and it comes down just behind the dodger where you are driving.  Really s*cks after about 20 miles of being drown, knowing you got a couple hundred more miles to go.
                       
                      3. The Benneteaus use a lot of European hardware and support systems, even the ones built in S.C.  This can be a pain to get parts for, find components in local chandellaries, or to get information about.
                       
                      4. The newer Benneteaus and their ilk are VERY limited on ventilation.  Very few of those ports open. If you plan on using it in warmer climates, you are not going to be happy.  I highly suggest you get on all final candidates on a really hot and humid day and see if you will be happy with the ventilation.
                       
                      5. Check the motor.  Many of the Benneteuas have volvo drivetrains.  Sabre used to use them. They are notorious for corrosion and walking away at end of life without a good stash of parts for the owners to maintain their motors.
                       
                      6. Looks is subjective.  I love the classic looks of a Sabre and gag a bit in my mouth at the Eurostyle of the mid 80 to 2007 or so Bennies.  The new Benneteaus look much better.  The late models Firsts are very sexy (but have the interior of a J boat).
                       
                      7. On older models, you need to check the Sabre for rot at the mast/keel.  On Benneteaus, you need to check the grid structure in the bildges, as they are known for the tabbing letting go.
                       
                      The Benneteau is likely faster for any given length.  They are lighter, more shallow and have a generous sailplan.  Beware of the early Beneteaus with inmast furlering. There were issues getting the main cut to a shape that would furl and actually work. 
                       
                      Be sure to compare Oceanious (sp?) models to the Sabres.  The First models are racers and stripped down.  If you want something in between, look at the Jenneaus which Benneteau also builds.
                       
                      As the sayings goes "It is not what you pay for something, it is what it costs".  The Sabre will cost you more up front, but will retain it's value better then the Benneteau. If you are thinking on a timespan of 4-5 years, no big difference. If you are talking about 10 or more years, the Sabre becomes a better investment.
                       
                      Heed that message about draft.  I am preparing to move to the Chesepeake in a couple years.
                      A buddy who wishes to do the same has a Benneteau 423 and is miffed because his keel limits  where he can dock and use it. 
                       
                      Benneteau is like Catalina.  High volume and built for a price like a chevy or ford.  Sabre is more like a Lincoln or Caddie.  Not a 1 off custom, but higher levels of quality than most production manufacturers.   They are decent boats. Heck if a salesperson has been more responsive, I would be sailing a Farr designed B36-7 instead of a Sabre today.  But that was because I wanted to race.  For my cruising needs, the Sabre is a much better fit.
                       

                      --- On Sat, 1/1/11, flroots <flroots@...> wrote:

                      From: flroots <flroots@...>
                      Subject: [SabreSailboat] Sabre vs Beneteau
                      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 5:11 AM

                       
                      I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                      Pete


                    • Dave Lochner
                      Pete, As always John has some good practical things to consider. Let me add a few comments to those I have already expressed. The good news is that no one has
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 1, 2011
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                        Pete,

                        As always John has some good practical things to consider. Let me add a few comments to those I have already expressed.

                        The good news is that no one has referred to a current model Beneteau as a "Benetub" or a floating clorox bottle. A few years back those were the comments that you would have read.

                        With any racing oriented boat (i.e., Beneteau First series, any J Boat series) the shelf life is very short. Once the design starts to fall out of favor, production stops, resell prices drop. The B 36.7 is an example. Any of the early Js (except for the J22 and J24) are another example. You can buy a decent J35 for about $35K or less.

                        Someone once told me that you should never buy a new boat or a used car. If you are looking at a boat in the 150K range, you can probably find a great used Sabre that you will enjoy more and recoup more of your "investment" than you will with a new Beneteau.

                        If you haven't read them already, you should read An Embarrassment of Mangoes and Seasoned by Salt  two good reads and different perspectives on sailing in the islands.

                        Dave



                        On Jan 1, 2011, at 4:39 PM, john kalinowski wrote:

                         

                        having sailed both, the responses you have recieved are very good.
                         
                        Things to think about.
                         
                        1. The Sabre is MUCH better in nasty seas, esspecially the newer Benneteaus.  That destoryer bow hunts all over the place in a sloppy seas. It wears you down at the helm.  I find I am good for maybe 2-3 hours before I need a break compared to 5-7 hours on a Sabre.  To me, it is the nautical version of my jeeps.  You don't understand what the engineers were thinking until you find yourself in some nasty weather. Then it all makes sense..
                         
                        2. The Benneteau has a big wide cockpit. Great for cocktails, a real pia in heavy seas.  Very hard for any dodger to keep you dry, and if you get knocked down, it is not as safe.  I know on the 423, when you are beating to weather, the *&^% wave busting off the bow flies high into the air (the hull does not deflect it to the side) and it comes down just behind the dodger where you are driving.  Really s*cks after about 20 miles of being drown, knowing you got a couple hundred more miles to go.
                         
                        3. The Benneteaus use a lot of European hardware and support systems, even the ones built in S.C.  This can be a pain to get parts for, find components in local chandellaries, or to get information about.
                         
                        4. The newer Benneteaus and their ilk are VERY limited on ventilation.  Very few of those ports open. If you plan on using it in warmer climates, you are not going to be happy.  I highly suggest you get on all final candidates on a really hot and humid day and see if you will be happy with the ventilation.
                         
                        5. Check the motor.  Many of the Benneteuas have volvo drivetrains.  Sabre used to use them. They are notorious for corrosion and walking away at end of life without a good stash of parts for the owners to maintain their motors.
                         
                        6. Looks is subjective.  I love the classic looks of a Sabre and gag a bit in my mouth at the Eurostyle of the mid 80 to 2007 or so Bennies.  The new Benneteaus look much better.  The late models Firsts are very sexy (but have the interior of a J boat).
                         
                        7. On older models, you need to check the Sabre for rot at the mast/keel.  On Benneteaus, you need to check the grid structure in the bildges, as they are known for the tabbing letting go.
                         
                        The Benneteau is likely faster for any given length.  They are lighter, more shallow and have a generous sailplan.  Beware of the early Beneteaus with inmast furlering. There were issues getting the main cut to a shape that would furl and actually work. 
                         
                        Be sure to compare Oceanious (sp?) models to the Sabres.  The First models are racers and stripped down.  If you want something in between, look at the Jenneaus which Benneteau also builds.
                         
                        As the sayings goes "It is not what you pay for something, it is what it costs".  The Sabre will cost you more up front, but will retain it's value better then the Benneteau. If you are thinking on a timespan of 4-5 years, no big difference. If you are talking about 10 or more years, the Sabre becomes a better investment.
                         
                        Heed that message about draft.  I am preparing to move to the Chesepeake in a couple years.
                        A buddy who wishes to do the same has a Benneteau 423 and is miffed because his keel limits  where he can dock and use it. 
                         
                        Benneteau is like Catalina.  High volume and built for a price like a chevy or ford.  Sabre is more like a Lincoln or Caddie.  Not a 1 off custom, but higher levels of quality than most production manufacturers.   They are decent boats. Heck if a salesperson has been more responsive, I would be sailing a Farr designed B36-7 instead of a Sabre today.  But that was because I wanted to race.  For my cruising needs, the Sabre is a much better fit.
                         

                        --- On Sat, 1/1/11, flroots <flroots@...> wrote:

                        From: flroots <flroots@...>
                        Subject: [SabreSailboat] Sabre vs Beneteau
                        To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 5:11 AM

                         
                        I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                        Pete



                      • flroots
                        Thanks for all the feedback; very thought provoking. Our budget is $100K +/- so we d would be looking at a 22 year old Sabre (eg, 28 Mk2) vs an 8 year old
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
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                          Thanks for all the feedback; very thought provoking. Our budget is $100K +/- so we'd would be looking at a 22 year old Sabre (eg, 28 Mk2) vs an 8 year old Beneteau (eg, 393). I do have a few comments about the comments:
                          - I actually prefer the sleek Euro styling as opposed to the more traditional look (our last boat was a Wauquiez Hood 38)
                          - I am disturbed by the less sea kindly behavior of a Beneteau in a sea
                          - I am disturbed by greater depreciation of Beneteaus. I'm trying to figure out how to evaluate this on Yachtworld.
                          - It doesn't bother me in the least if I look like a charter boat!
                          - I am concerned about right moments and capsize factors but haven't found any authoritative write-ups on this subject

                          Thanks again,
                          Pete


                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                          > Pete
                          >
                        • jack horner
                          Pete, I have sailed both Sabres and Beneteau, I charted a Mornings Beneteau on a 38 in the BVI 25 knot winds and 6 ft seas..My first reaction was this boat is
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
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                            Pete, I have sailed both Sabres and Beneteau, I charted  a Mornings Beneteau on a 38 in the BVI 25 knot winds and 6 ft seas..My first reaction was this boat is "light" ! Did not charge thru chop well enough for me..  Next trip to the BVI I choose a 30 year old Jeanneau 41. What a difference..!
                             I had sailed a Sabre on the Chesapeake years before and was impressed.
                             So my advice is SAIL them both. Style is style, but how do they sail.? I need to smile every time the sails are raised , and feel how solid and how high she points..Than again I'm old school.. Lee/ Fla



                            From: flroots <flroots@...>
                            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sun, January 2, 2011 4:44:53 AM
                            Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Sabre vs Beneteau

                             

                            Thanks for all the feedback; very thought provoking. Our budget is $100K +/- so we'd would be looking at a 22 year old Sabre (eg, 28 Mk2) vs an 8 year old Beneteau (eg, 393). I do have a few comments about the comments:
                            - I actually prefer the sleek Euro styling as opposed to the more traditional look (our last boat was a Wauquiez Hood 38)
                            - I am disturbed by the less sea kindly behavior of a Beneteau in a sea
                            - I am disturbed by greater depreciation of Beneteaus. I'm trying to figure out how to evaluate this on Yachtworld.
                            - It doesn't bother me in the least if I look like a charter boat!
                            - I am concerned about right moments and capsize factors but haven't found any authoritative write-ups on this subject

                            Thanks again,
                            Pete

                            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                            > Pete
                            >


                          • oldsailor36@verizon.net
                            ... $100K +/- so we d would be looking at a 22 year old Sabre (eg, 28 Mk2) vs an 8 year old Beneteau (eg, 393). I do have a few comments about the comments: If
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
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                              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks for all the feedback; very thought provoking. Our budget is $100K +/- so we'd would be looking at a 22 year old Sabre (eg, 28 Mk2) vs an 8 year old Beneteau (eg, 393). I do have a few comments about the comments:

                              If that's the vintage and model boats you're comparing, then I can offer a few additional comments you might consider. First off, no matter the make of boat a 22 year old boat has a far bigger potential of being a budget buster than an 8 year old comparable. It's not just their current condition but the condition they are likely to be in say five years. The 22 year old boat would be at an age where things start demanding changeout while the 8 year old comparable would still be in the part of its life curve where those needs would still be in the future.  

                              > - I actually prefer the sleek Euro styling as opposed to the more traditional look (our last boat was a Wauquiez Hood 38)
                              > - I am disturbed by the less sea kindly behavior of a Beneteau in a sea

                              The line of Beneteaus and Sabres you're looking at are primarily intended for a market made up of coastal sailors but built to stand up to the rigors of bluewater sailing. Both makes have safely made a lot of ocean crossings with, I would wager, the Benetaus leading that category by a wide margin given their numbers. The problem is, with both, is that while they can make ocean passages that doesn't mean they'll be comfortable doing so. Then again a boat built to comfortably make ocean passages is not likely to be comfortable sailing in the Caribbean.

                              > - I am disturbed by greater depreciation of Beneteaus. I'm trying to figure out how to evaluate this on Yachtworld.

                              Why should that be? You would be buying either boat with its price already greatly depreciated. The depreciation it would be experiencing after you bought it would be largely based on how you cared for either boat.

                               
                              > - It doesn't bother me in the least if I look like a charter boat!
                              > - I am concerned about right moments and capsize factors but haven't found any authoritative write-ups on this subject

                              I would be concerned with that as well if they were newer boats but both the boats you are considering have been around for awhile and have a track record of bluewater cruising. Actual experience often trumps design projections particularly for the controversial criteria you are looking at.

                              Jer

                               


                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" flroots@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                              > > Pete
                              > >
                              >

                            • Leonard Bertaux
                              With your budget you should be able to find a reasonably well maintained vessel in the 36-38 foot range. In terms of choosing one from another I would argue
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
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                                With your budget you should be able to find a reasonably well maintained vessel in the 36-38 foot range. In terms of choosing one from another I would argue it's mostly a matter of personal taste. Neither of these builders are designing blue water, live aboard vessels IMO. Since you are planning to purchase this for extended travel and living I would recommend thinking about the boat from that perspective. What will you need to be safe and comfortable? How will the vessel accommodate those needs? Will there be adequate room to keep and store your equipment, still maintaining a comfortable living space for yourselves and possibly guests. On such an extended cruise more than 90% of your time aboard will be at anchor or in a slip.
                                 I personally have only met a couple of Beneteau's and they were, inside, not my idea of a gracious yacht interior. But for that kind of trip I'm thinking both are not the best suited designs. 

                                Leonard Bertaux

                                Sent from my iPhone,

                                On Jan 2, 2011, at 4:44 AM, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:

                                 

                                Thanks for all the feedback; very thought provoking. Our budget is $100K +/- so we'd would be looking at a 22 year old Sabre (eg, 28 Mk2) vs an 8 year old Beneteau (eg, 393). I do have a few comments about the comments:
                                - I actually prefer the sleek Euro styling as opposed to the more traditional look (our last boat was a Wauquiez Hood 38)
                                - I am disturbed by the less sea kindly behavior of a Beneteau in a sea
                                - I am disturbed by greater depreciation of Beneteaus. I'm trying to figure out how to evaluate this on Yachtworld.
                                - It doesn't bother me in the least if I look like a charter boat!
                                - I am concerned about right moments and capsize factors but haven't found any authoritative write-ups on this subject

                                Thanks again,
                                Pete

                                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                                > Pete
                                >

                              • flroots
                                Thanks. You ve restored my confidence in the choice of a Beneteau. You are right about the 22 year old boat; much will probably need to be replaced such as
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
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                                  Thanks. You've restored my confidence in the choice of a Beneteau. You are right about the 22 year old boat; much will probably need to be replaced such as rigging and sales assuming they're original. Also, I am much more concerned about seaworthiness than comfort especially the stability of a Beneteau given the much lighter displacement (and ballast). I think you are suggesting that either option will be sufficiently seaworthy for my intended purpose.
                                  Pete


                                  --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "oldsailor36@..." <oldsailor36@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks for all the feedback; very thought provoking. Our budget is
                                  > $100K +/- so we'd would be looking at a 22 year old Sabre (eg, 28 Mk2)
                                  > vs an 8 year old Beneteau (eg, 393). I do have a few comments about the
                                  > comments:
                                  >
                                  > If that's the vintage and model boats you're comparing, then I can offer
                                  > a few additional comments you might consider. First off, no matter the
                                  > make of boat a 22 year old boat has a far bigger potential of being a
                                  > budget buster than an 8 year old comparable. It's not just their current
                                  > condition but the condition they are likely to be in say five years. The
                                  > 22 year old boat would be at an age where things start demanding
                                  > changeout while the 8 year old comparable would still be in the part of
                                  > its life curve where those needs would still be in the future.
                                  >
                                  > > - I actually prefer the sleek Euro styling as opposed to the more
                                  > traditional look (our last boat was a Wauquiez Hood 38)
                                  > > - I am disturbed by the less sea kindly behavior of a Beneteau in a
                                  > sea
                                  >
                                  > The line of Beneteaus and Sabres you're looking at are primarily
                                  > intended for a market made up of coastal sailors but built to stand up
                                  > to the rigors of bluewater sailing. Both makes have safely made a lot of
                                  > ocean crossings with, I would wager, the Benetaus leading that category
                                  > by a wide margin given their numbers. The problem is, with both, is that
                                  > while they can make ocean passages that doesn't mean they'll be
                                  > comfortable doing so. Then again a boat built to comfortably make ocean
                                  > passages is not likely to be comfortable sailing in the Caribbean.
                                  >
                                  > > - I am disturbed by greater depreciation of Beneteaus. I'm trying to
                                  > figure out how to evaluate this on Yachtworld.
                                  >
                                  > Why should that be? You would be buying either boat with its price
                                  > already greatly depreciated. The depreciation it would be experiencing
                                  > after you bought it would be largely based on how you cared for either
                                  > boat.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > - It doesn't bother me in the least if I look like a charter boat!
                                  > > - I am concerned about right moments and capsize factors but haven't
                                  > found any authoritative write-ups on this subject
                                  >
                                  > I would be concerned with that as well if they were newer boats but both
                                  > the boats you are considering have been around for awhile and have a
                                  > track record of bluewater cruising. Actual experience often trumps
                                  > design projections particularly for the controversial criteria you are
                                  > looking at.
                                  >
                                  > Jer
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" flroots@ wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft.
                                  > We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida
                                  > to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and
                                  > Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am
                                  > interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of
                                  > construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                                  > > > Pete
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • john kalinowski
                                  Pete   For 100K you can move up quite a bit on used Sabres.  I take you meant an older 38.   If you do pop for the 393, be sure it is not a ex-charter boat.
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
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                                    Pete
                                     
                                    For 100K you can move up quite a bit on used Sabres.  I take you meant an older 38.
                                     
                                    If you do pop for the 393, be sure it is not a ex-charter boat.
                                    The guy next to me bought one of those 5 years ago.
                                    After 2-3 seasons he sold it.
                                    The thing was worn out and he was spending more time replacing systems then sailing.
                                    A good survey will help you here.
                                     
                                    john

                                    --- On Sun, 1/2/11, flroots <flroots@...> wrote:

                                    From: flroots <flroots@...>
                                    Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Sabre vs Beneteau
                                    To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Sunday, January 2, 2011, 4:44 AM

                                     
                                    Thanks for all the feedback; very thought provoking. Our budget is $100K +/- so we'd would be looking at a 22 year old Sabre (eg, 28 Mk2) vs an 8 year old Beneteau (eg, 393). I do have a few comments about the comments:
                                    - I actually prefer the sleek Euro styling as opposed to the more traditional look (our last boat was a Wauquiez Hood 38)
                                    - I am disturbed by the less sea kindly behavior of a Beneteau in a sea
                                    - I am disturbed by greater depreciation of Beneteaus. I'm trying to figure out how to evaluate this on Yachtworld.
                                    - It doesn't bother me in the least if I look like a charter boat!
                                    - I am concerned about right moments and capsize factors but haven't found any authoritative write-ups on this subject

                                    Thanks again,
                                    Pete

                                    --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                                    > Pete
                                    >


                                  • Jan
                                    I comment having owned both a 99 Bene and now a 84 Sabre. Make no mistake, the older boat has had a negative impact on the pocketbook as mentioned in an
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
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                                      I comment having owned both a '99 Bene and now a '84 Sabre. Make no mistake, the older boat has had a negative impact on the pocketbook as mentioned in an earlier post. Do keep in mind that you will also need to spend money to get a boat ready for extended cruising which must be factored in for your overall budget. In our case, the orginal purchase price was a little less than your budget but we have plowed another $70K back into the boat getting her ready to cruise and upkeep costs including repowering. Knowing what I know now, I think you would do well to investigate used boats that have already been tricked out and sailed in the Carribean whose owners have outgrown their need to cruise or have health problems etc.

                                      We cruise on the Pacific coast of Mexico and I have seen some really good values in nice boats already equiped which are ready to cruise for way less than what we put into this current boat. Also be aware on older boats the technology is old and the cost to upgrade is expensive. I've had to replace the SSB radio, windlass, engine, refrigeration, autopilot, etc, all of which looked great on the brokers list of "goodies" included with the boat. Other posts have covered other good points to consider so I will not go further. Put all these thoughts together and you will have to decide what is important and what is not. We have good friends cruising with us on their '02 393 Bene. They dissapear over the horizon with using all 54HP while we plug along with our older boat at a much slower pace but when we sit in their very uncomfortable cockpit, we are always ready to return to our very comfortable Sabre cockpit. Actually, I often sit in their cockpit drinking my beer and watch our boat swing at anchor nearby and think - I like ours better!

                                      Good luck with you choices.

                                      Jan S38 MkI Puerto Vallarta, Mex.

                                      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > With your budget you should be able to find a reasonably well maintained vessel in the 36-38 foot range. In terms of choosing one from another I would argue it's mostly a matter of personal taste. Neither of these builders are designing blue water, live aboard vessels IMO. Since you are planning to purchase this for extended travel and living I would recommend thinking about the boat from that perspective. What will you need to be safe and comfortable? How will the vessel accommodate those needs? Will there be adequate room to keep and store your equipment, still maintaining a comfortable living space for yourselves and possibly guests. On such an extended cruise more than 90% of your time aboard will be at anchor or in a slip.
                                      > I personally have only met a couple of Beneteau's and they were, inside, not my idea of a gracious yacht interior. But for that kind of trip I'm thinking both are not the best suited designs.
                                      >
                                      > Leonard Bertaux
                                      >
                                      > Sent from my iPhone,
                                      >
                                      > On Jan 2, 2011, at 4:44 AM, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Thanks for all the feedback; very thought provoking. Our budget is $100K +/- so we'd would be looking at a 22 year old Sabre (eg, 28 Mk2) vs an 8 year old Beneteau (eg, 393). I do have a few comments about the comments:
                                      > > - I actually prefer the sleek Euro styling as opposed to the more traditional look (our last boat was a Wauquiez Hood 38)
                                      > > - I am disturbed by the less sea kindly behavior of a Beneteau in a sea
                                      > > - I am disturbed by greater depreciation of Beneteaus. I'm trying to figure out how to evaluate this on Yachtworld.
                                      > > - It doesn't bother me in the least if I look like a charter boat!
                                      > > - I am concerned about right moments and capsize factors but haven't found any authoritative write-ups on this subject
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks again,
                                      > > Pete
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft. We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                                      > > > Pete
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • oldsailor36@verizon.net
                                      ... are right about the 22 year old boat; much will probably need to be replaced such as rigging and sales assuming they re original. Also, I am much more
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
                                      • 0 Attachment


                                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Thanks. You've restored my confidence in the choice of a Beneteau. You are right about the 22 year old boat; much will probably need to be replaced such as rigging and sales assuming they're original. Also, I am much more concerned about seaworthiness than comfort especially the stability of a Beneteau given the much lighter displacement (and ballast). I think you are suggesting that either option will be sufficiently seaworthy for my intended purpose.
                                        > Pete

                                        Not only would a Benetau or Sabre be sufficiently seaworthy for what you want to do but so would a Hunter or Catalina as long as you understand the limitations of each boat and adjust your sailing accordingly. Keep in mind, though, that as long as you aren't on a schedule severe sailing weather can always be avoided in that area but hot, humid weather can't. And since you'll be spending most of your time moored keeping comfortable will not only require sufficient ventilation but also lots of cabin volume. The more volume that there is for heat to rise and pass out the more comfortable you will be. Big cockpits are also nice when your spending lots of time moored. Of course, what's good when you're moored is lousy when you're at sea in weather. But as long as you don't suddenly get the urge to tackle the Roaring Forties while daydreaming as you sip something refreshing in Tortolla you'll be fine with the Benetau.

                                        Jer

                                         

                                         


                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "oldsailor36@" oldsailor36@ wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Thanks for all the feedback; very thought provoking. Our budget is
                                        > > $100K +/- so we'd would be looking at a 22 year old Sabre (eg, 28 Mk2)
                                        > > vs an 8 year old Beneteau (eg, 393). I do have a few comments about the
                                        > > comments:
                                        > >
                                        > > If that's the vintage and model boats you're comparing, then I can offer
                                        > > a few additional comments you might consider. First off, no matter the
                                        > > make of boat a 22 year old boat has a far bigger potential of being a
                                        > > budget buster than an 8 year old comparable. It's not just their current
                                        > > condition but the condition they are likely to be in say five years. The
                                        > > 22 year old boat would be at an age where things start demanding
                                        > > changeout while the 8 year old comparable would still be in the part of
                                        > > its life curve where those needs would still be in the future.
                                        > >
                                        > > > - I actually prefer the sleek Euro styling as opposed to the more
                                        > > traditional look (our last boat was a Wauquiez Hood 38)
                                        > > > - I am disturbed by the less sea kindly behavior of a Beneteau in a
                                        > > sea
                                        > >
                                        > > The line of Beneteaus and Sabres you're looking at are primarily
                                        > > intended for a market made up of coastal sailors but built to stand up
                                        > > to the rigors of bluewater sailing. Both makes have safely made a lot of
                                        > > ocean crossings with, I would wager, the Benetaus leading that category
                                        > > by a wide margin given their numbers. The problem is, with both, is that
                                        > > while they can make ocean passages that doesn't mean they'll be
                                        > > comfortable doing so. Then again a boat built to comfortably make ocean
                                        > > passages is not likely to be comfortable sailing in the Caribbean.
                                        > >
                                        > > > - I am disturbed by greater depreciation of Beneteaus. I'm trying to
                                        > > figure out how to evaluate this on Yachtworld.
                                        > >
                                        > > Why should that be? You would be buying either boat with its price
                                        > > already greatly depreciated. The depreciation it would be experiencing
                                        > > after you bought it would be largely based on how you cared for either
                                        > > boat.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > - It doesn't bother me in the least if I look like a charter boat!
                                        > > > - I am concerned about right moments and capsize factors but haven't
                                        > > found any authoritative write-ups on this subject
                                        > >
                                        > > I would be concerned with that as well if they were newer boats but both
                                        > > the boats you are considering have been around for awhile and have a
                                        > > track record of bluewater cruising. Actual experience often trumps
                                        > > design projections particularly for the controversial criteria you are
                                        > > looking at.
                                        > >
                                        > > Jer
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" flroots@ wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I'm looking to buy a boat in the 37-41 foot range with shoal draft.
                                        > > We plan to cruise the Virgin Islands and will make the trip from Florida
                                        > > to Puerto Rico. We met with a broker who represents both Beneteau and
                                        > > Sabre. He recommended the Beneteau as the best boat for the money. I am
                                        > > interested in knowing the differences with respect to quality of
                                        > > construction, seaworthiness, and ability to hold its value. Thanks
                                        > > > > Pete
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >

                                      • flroots
                                        Thanks. I meant a Sabre 38 Mk2. The Sabre 362 is nice, but a bit small in our opinion for full time liveaboard. I ll heed your advice on the ex-charter boats.
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
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                                          Thanks. I meant a Sabre 38 Mk2. The Sabre 362 is nice, but a bit small in our opinion for full time liveaboard. I'll heed your advice on the ex-charter boats.
                                          Pete

                                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Pete
                                          >  
                                          > For 100K you can move up quite a bit on used Sabres.  I take you meant an older 38.
                                          >  
                                          > If you do pop for the 393, be sure it is not a ex-charter boat.
                                          > The guy next to me bought one of those 5 years ago.
                                          > After 2-3 seasons he sold it.
                                          > The thing was worn out and he was spending more time replacing systems then sailing.
                                          > A good survey will help you here.
                                          >  
                                          > john
                                          >
                                          > --- On
                                        • Alan Pressman
                                          The Beneteau and the Hunters are pretty much the entry level sailboat builders of the modern era. They are also two of the largest builders worldwide.
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
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                                            The Beneteau and the Hunters are pretty much the entry level sailboat builders of the modern era.  They are also two of the largest builders worldwide.  Catalina is the third builder that considers itself as a worthy competitor to the B's & H's.

                                            Some of the larger Benes and Hunters are being built to "A" Ocean standards, but an investigation of the overall design and construction would suggest that there may be more comfortable vessels better suited to offshore cruising.  But remember, in 60 knots on the open seas, none of these or other small boats will provide what you would consider a comfortable day of sailing, whether full keeled or fin keeled.  (Check out some of the u tube videos of boats in storms at sea!)  Best to be in a boat that was well constructed in the first place and have good seamanship skills which are often a better predictor of storm survival than the design/construction of a given vessel.

                                            Catalina probably builds to a better standard than B or H, and they are seeming under pressure to keep costs low and as close to the two entry level builders, but are probably charging 15% more while giving 25-30% more boat.  All are coastal cruisers and some have done transoceanic trips successfully.

                                            Sabre's are built differently than all 3.  The 3 big guys are essentially three piece boats with a hull, a pan/grid and a deck.  (Same with Island Packet.)  Sabres are 2 piece boats with a hull and deck.  Sabres foregoe a glued in pan/grid for hull stiffness and derives its structural integrity from a system of fully bonded and glassed-in stringers and bulkheads.  This is much more labor intensive than the pan system and provides tremendous hull strength without the weight penalty associated with the large and very heavy pans.  It's the labor intensive thing that drives the large builders to use pans.  They cut corners to save weight elsewhere to offset the weight of the pans.

                                            The amount of storage in Sabre for a given LOA will substantially exceed storage space in a comparably sized Beneteau.

                                            The Beneteau will probably be a better performer than Sabre in light air (although a 150 genoa will help the Sabre) and it may be a bit tender vs Sabre.  But the "seakindly motion" that is often talked about will be much different due to the relative shallow bilge turn in the Beneteau.  This keeps the wetted surface down for light air performance, but also is akin to riding along like a cork in the rough stuff.

                                            Another critical difference that cannot be overlooked is the choice of material of keel.  Sabre uses lead, and lead is denser, provides more ballast per given volume and is more forgiving when you go aground.  Beneteau uses iron keels (unless you go back quite a ways with an older boat).  Iron is cheaper.  It needs more volume to provide equivalent ballast compared to lead, and if the paint, epoxy primer (if any) and the paint primer itself is breached, salt water intrusion can create problems (severe blistering, corrosion, etc.) that will be costly to correct.

                                            Last year I sold a 2002 Beneteau 473 with an iron wing keel.  During the short haul, we saw almost complete keel coverage with quartersized blisters.  I called the seller who was not present and he was surprised to learn that the blisters had "come back"!  He apparently neglected to mention the factory's warranty work two years earlier for a complete refinishing of the keel which included epoxy barrier coat before painting.  It cost him $4500 to get the deal done which was the estimate for the new fix.

                                            The interior of the Beneteaus are also nice looking and they have given a lot of attention to detail.  These woods are mostly laminate finishes rather than solid woods and over time, you often see the results of dents and scratches more than on solid wood construction.

                                            And given that their nice floors are not actually part of any kind of stringer and rib construction as on Sabre, you often hear the panels creaking around as the movement against the fiberglass pan surface is clearly audible.  The fix for this is to lift them out and drop in baby powder which quiets things down nicely before replacing them.

                                            Finally, there is resale value.  Very few boats will hold their value as well as Sabre.  Island Packet does pretty well, as do brands like Pacific Seacraft, Morris, and other higher end builders.  They hold the test of time well, stand up to use well and when you go to sell, they are hard to find in any kind of quantity since the builders didn't build many in any given year.  Lots of Hunters and Beneteaus on the market at any given moment which tends to put pressure on the seller to negotiate more on price in order to get these boats sold.

                                            A while back I had an interesting conversation with another boat broker who couldn't get his arms around the idea that a Catalina 42 would sell new for 275K vs a Sabre 426 at about 450K all up.  Forget that the Sabre will sail circles around the Cat, hold its value and take really good care of you in the rough stuff, he just couldn't see how anyone could pay more for a 42 that was smaller than the Catalina 42.

                                            I told him that he had completely missed the point.  The question is not why a person would pay 450 for a Sabre when he can buy a perfectly good Catalina for 275 but rather, how can Sabre build a 42 for 450 that is 80% of the 42 foot boat Morris builds for a million?  80% of a Morris for half the price!  Now that is the real trick!

                                            For $100K you can find a late 80's to early 90's Sabre 36, or an early 90's 362, and possibly even a nice Sabre 38.  All good choices for a quality built boat that will hold value and be a blast to own and sail.  And maintenance costs?  New or old, all boats need attention and that'll cost ya. Hire a good surveyor before you pays your money so you know what you are getting into first.

                                            Gotta run.  Last weekend day to go sailing on my 34.

                                            Alan
                                              
                                            --
                                            Alan Pressman
                                            Grand Slam Yacht Sales
                                            Cortez, FL 34215
                                            941-350-1559

                                            On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:54 AM, flroots <flroots@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            Thanks. I meant a Sabre 38 Mk2. The Sabre 362 is nice, but a bit small in our opinion for full time liveaboard. I'll heed your advice on the ex-charter boats.
                                            Pete

                                            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Pete
                                            >  
                                            > For 100K you can move up quite a bit on used Sabres.  I take you meant an older 38.
                                            >  


                                            > If you do pop for the 393, be sure it is not a ex-charter boat.
                                            > The guy next to me bought one of those 5 years ago.
                                            > After 2-3 seasons he sold it.
                                            > The thing was worn out and he was spending more time replacing systems then sailing.
                                            > A good survey will help you here.
                                            >  
                                            > john
                                            >
                                            > --- On





                                          • Peter Tollini
                                            My favorite quote from the late Gary Mull: The cheapest thing you can put in a boat is air. His way of saying A lot of boat for the money. Pete ... My
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
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                                              My favorite quote from the late Gary Mull:
                                              "The cheapest thing you can put in a boat is air."
                                              His way of saying "A lot of boat for the money."
                                              Pete

                                              On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Alan Pressman <alanpressman@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              The Beneteau and the Hunters are pretty much the entry level sailboat builders of the modern era.  They are also two of the largest builders worldwide.  Catalina is the third builder that considers itself as a worthy competitor to the B's & H's.

                                              Some of the larger Benes and Hunters are being built to "A" Ocean standards, but an investigation of the overall design and construction would suggest that there may be more comfortable vessels better suited to offshore cruising.  But remember, in 60 knots on the open seas, none of these or other small boats will provide what you would consider a comfortable day of sailing, whether full keeled or fin keeled.  (Check out some of the u tube videos of boats in storms at sea!)  Best to be in a boat that was well constructed in the first place and have good seamanship skills which are often a better predictor of storm survival than the design/construction of a given vessel.

                                              Catalina probably builds to a better standard than B or H, and they are seeming under pressure to keep costs low and as close to the two entry level builders, but are probably charging 15% more while giving 25-30% more boat.  All are coastal cruisers and some have done transoceanic trips successfully.

                                              Sabre's are built differently than all 3.  The 3 big guys are essentially three piece boats with a hull, a pan/grid and a deck.  (Same with Island Packet.)  Sabres are 2 piece boats with a hull and deck.  Sabres foregoe a glued in pan/grid for hull stiffness and derives its structural integrity from a system of fully bonded and glassed-in stringers and bulkheads.  This is much more labor intensive than the pan system and provides tremendous hull strength without the weight penalty associated with the large and very heavy pans.  It's the labor intensive thing that drives the large builders to use pans.  They cut corners to save weight elsewhere to offset the weight of the pans.

                                              The amount of storage in Sabre for a given LOA will substantially exceed storage space in a comparably sized Beneteau.

                                              The Beneteau will probably be a better performer than Sabre in light air (although a 150 genoa will help the Sabre) and it may be a bit tender vs Sabre.  But the "seakindly motion" that is often talked about will be much different due to the relative shallow bilge turn in the Beneteau.  This keeps the wetted surface down for light air performance, but also is akin to riding along like a cork in the rough stuff.

                                              Another critical difference that cannot be overlooked is the choice of material of keel.  Sabre uses lead, and lead is denser, provides more ballast per given volume and is more forgiving when you go aground.  Beneteau uses iron keels (unless you go back quite a ways with an older boat).  Iron is cheaper.  It needs more volume to provide equivalent ballast compared to lead, and if the paint, epoxy primer (if any) and the paint primer itself is breached, salt water intrusion can create problems (severe blistering, corrosion, etc.) that will be costly to correct.

                                              Last year I sold a 2002 Beneteau 473 with an iron wing keel.  During the short haul, we saw almost complete keel coverage with quartersized blisters.  I called the seller who was not present and he was surprised to learn that the blisters had "come back"!  He apparently neglected to mention the factory's warranty work two years earlier for a complete refinishing of the keel which included epoxy barrier coat before painting.  It cost him $4500 to get the deal done which was the estimate for the new fix.

                                              The interior of the Beneteaus are also nice looking and they have given a lot of attention to detail.  These woods are mostly laminate finishes rather than solid woods and over time, you often see the results of dents and scratches more than on solid wood construction.

                                              And given that their nice floors are not actually part of any kind of stringer and rib construction as on Sabre, you often hear the panels creaking around as the movement against the fiberglass pan surface is clearly audible.  The fix for this is to lift them out and drop in baby powder which quiets things down nicely before replacing them.

                                              Finally, there is resale value.  Very few boats will hold their value as well as Sabre.  Island Packet does pretty well, as do brands like Pacific Seacraft, Morris, and other higher end builders.  They hold the test of time well, stand up to use well and when you go to sell, they are hard to find in any kind of quantity since the builders didn't build many in any given year.  Lots of Hunters and Beneteaus on the market at any given moment which tends to put pressure on the seller to negotiate more on price in order to get these boats sold.

                                              A while back I had an interesting conversation with another boat broker who couldn't get his arms around the idea that a Catalina 42 would sell new for 275K vs a Sabre 426 at about 450K all up.  Forget that the Sabre will sail circles around the Cat, hold its value and take really good care of you in the rough stuff, he just couldn't see how anyone could pay more for a 42 that was smaller than the Catalina 42.

                                              I told him that he had completely missed the point.  The question is not why a person would pay 450 for a Sabre when he can buy a perfectly good Catalina for 275 but rather, how can Sabre build a 42 for 450 that is 80% of the 42 foot boat Morris builds for a million?  80% of a Morris for half the price!  Now that is the real trick!

                                              For $100K you can find a late 80's to early 90's Sabre 36, or an early 90's 362, and possibly even a nice Sabre 38.  All good choices for a quality built boat that will hold value and be a blast to own and sail.  And maintenance costs?  New or old, all boats need attention and that'll cost ya. Hire a good surveyor before you pays your money so you know what you are getting into first.

                                              Gotta run.  Last weekend day to go sailing on my 34.

                                              Alan
                                                
                                              --
                                              Alan Pressman
                                              Grand Slam Yacht Sales
                                              Cortez, FL 34215
                                              941-350-1559



                                              On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:54 AM, flroots <flroots@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              Thanks. I meant a Sabre 38 Mk2. The Sabre 362 is nice, but a bit small in our opinion for full time liveaboard. I'll heed your advice on the ex-charter boats.
                                              Pete

                                              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Pete
                                              >  
                                              > For 100K you can move up quite a bit on used Sabres.  I take you meant an older 38.
                                              >  


                                              > If you do pop for the 393, be sure it is not a ex-charter boat.
                                              > The guy next to me bought one of those 5 years ago.
                                              > After 2-3 seasons he sold it.
                                              > The thing was worn out and he was spending more time replacing systems then sailing.
                                              > A good survey will help you here.
                                              >  
                                              > john
                                              >
                                              > --- On






                                            • ajl@lormanlawdc.com
                                              One way to look at price and displacement is to calculate price per pound. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From: Peter Tollini
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
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                                                One way to look at price and displacement is to calculate price per pound.

                                                Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


                                                From: Peter Tollini <pete@...>
                                                Sender: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 17:22:25 -0500
                                                To: <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
                                                ReplyTo: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Sabre vs Beneteau

                                                 

                                                My favorite quote from the late Gary Mull:
                                                "The cheapest thing you can put in a boat is air."
                                                His way of saying "A lot of boat for the money."
                                                Pete

                                                On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Alan Pressman <alanpressman@...> wrote:
                                                 

                                                The Beneteau and the Hunters are pretty much the entry level sailboat builders of the modern era.  They are also two of the largest builders worldwide.  Catalina is the third builder that considers itself as a worthy competitor to the B's & H's.

                                                Some of the larger Benes and Hunters are being built to "A" Ocean standards, but an investigation of the overall design and construction would suggest that there may be more comfortable vessels better suited to offshore cruising.  But remember, in 60 knots on the open seas, none of these or other small boats will provide what you would consider a comfortable day of sailing, whether full keeled or fin keeled.  (Check out some of the u tube videos of boats in storms at sea!)  Best to be in a boat that was well constructed in the first place and have good seamanship skills which are often a better predictor of storm survival than the design/construction of a given vessel.

                                                Catalina probably builds to a better standard than B or H, and they are seeming under pressure to keep costs low and as close to the two entry level builders, but are probably charging 15% more while giving 25-30% more boat.  All are coastal cruisers and some have done transoceanic trips successfully.

                                                Sabre's are built differently than all 3.  The 3 big guys are essentially three piece boats with a hull, a pan/grid and a deck.  (Same with Island Packet.)  Sabres are 2 piece boats with a hull and deck.  Sabres foregoe a glued in pan/grid for hull stiffness and derives its structural integrity from a system of fully bonded and glassed-in stringers and bulkheads.  This is much more labor intensive than the pan system and provides tremendous hull strength without the weight penalty associated with the large and very heavy pans.  It's the labor intensive thing that drives the large builders to use pans.  They cut corners to save weight elsewhere to offset the weight of the pans.

                                                The amount of storage in Sabre for a given LOA will substantially exceed storage space in a comparably sized Beneteau.

                                                The Beneteau will probably be a better performer than Sabre in light air (although a 150 genoa will help the Sabre) and it may be a bit tender vs Sabre.  But the "seakindly motion" that is often talked about will be much different due to the relative shallow bilge turn in the Beneteau.  This keeps the wetted surface down for light air performance, but also is akin to riding along like a cork in the rough stuff.

                                                Another critical difference that cannot be overlooked is the choice of material of keel.  Sabre uses lead, and lead is denser, provides more ballast per given volume and is more forgiving when you go aground.  Beneteau uses iron keels (unless you go back quite a ways with an older boat).  Iron is cheaper.  It needs more volume to provide equivalent ballast compared to lead, and if the paint, epoxy primer (if any) and the paint primer itself is breached, salt water intrusion can create problems (severe blistering, corrosion, etc.) that will be costly to correct.

                                                Last year I sold a 2002 Beneteau 473 with an iron wing keel.  During the short haul, we saw almost complete keel coverage with quartersized blisters.  I called the seller who was not present and he was surprised to learn that the blisters had "come back"!  He apparently neglected to mention the factory's warranty work two years earlier for a complete refinishing of the keel which included epoxy barrier coat before painting.  It cost him $4500 to get the deal done which was the estimate for the new fix.

                                                The interior of the Beneteaus are also nice looking and they have given a lot of attention to detail.  These woods are mostly laminate finishes rather than solid woods and over time, you often see the results of dents and scratches more than on solid wood construction.

                                                And given that their nice floors are not actually part of any kind of stringer and rib construction as on Sabre, you often hear the panels creaking around as the movement against the fiberglass pan surface is clearly audible.  The fix for this is to lift them out and drop in baby powder which quiets things down nicely before replacing them.

                                                Finally, there is resale value.  Very few boats will hold their value as well as Sabre.  Island Packet does pretty well, as do brands like Pacific Seacraft, Morris, and other higher end builders.  They hold the test of time well, stand up to use well and when you go to sell, they are hard to find in any kind of quantity since the builders didn't build many in any given year.  Lots of Hunters and Beneteaus on the market at any given moment which tends to put pressure on the seller to negotiate more on price in order to get these boats sold.

                                                A while back I had an interesting conversation with another boat broker who couldn't get his arms around the idea that a Catalina 42 would sell new for 275K vs a Sabre 426 at about 450K all up.  Forget that the Sabre will sail circles around the Cat, hold its value and take really good care of you in the rough stuff, he just couldn't see how anyone could pay more for a 42 that was smaller than the Catalina 42.

                                                I told him that he had completely missed the point.  The question is not why a person would pay 450 for a Sabre when he can buy a perfectly good Catalina for 275 but rather, how can Sabre build a 42 for 450 that is 80% of the 42 foot boat Morris builds for a million?  80% of a Morris for half the price!  Now that is the real trick!

                                                For $100K you can find a late 80's to early 90's Sabre 36, or an early 90's 362, and possibly even a nice Sabre 38.  All good choices for a quality built boat that will hold value and be a blast to own and sail.  And maintenance costs?  New or old, all boats need attention and that'll cost ya. Hire a good surveyor before you pays your money so you know what you are getting into first.

                                                Gotta run.  Last weekend day to go sailing on my 34.

                                                Alan
                                                  
                                                --
                                                Alan Pressman
                                                Grand Slam Yacht Sales
                                                Cortez, FL 34215
                                                941-350-1559



                                                On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:54 AM, flroots <flroots@...> wrote:
                                                 

                                                Thanks. I meant a Sabre 38 Mk2. The Sabre 362 is nice, but a bit small in our opinion for full time liveaboard. I'll heed your advice on the ex-charter boats.
                                                Pete

                                                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Pete
                                                >  
                                                > For 100K you can move up quite a bit on used Sabres.  I take you meant an older 38.
                                                >  


                                                > If you do pop for the 393, be sure it is not a ex-charter boat.
                                                > The guy next to me bought one of those 5 years ago.
                                                > After 2-3 seasons he sold it.
                                                > The thing was worn out and he was spending more time replacing systems then sailing.
                                                > A good survey will help you here.
                                                >  
                                                > john
                                                >
                                                > --- On






                                              • flroots
                                                Hi: We all have access to Yachtworld, but I am at a loss as to how best to view a boat s ability to hold its value over time. One way would be to divide the
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jan 3, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi:
                                                  We all have access to Yachtworld, but I am at a loss as to how best to view a boat's ability to hold its value over time. One way would be to divide the the average sale price of an older boat by its original price. This ignores inflation, but if you compared makes and models introduced around the same time, that would tend to cancel out. Of course, I don't have access to the original sale price; wonder if anyone does for say a Sabre 362 and a Beneteau 400. According to my notes, these were both introduced in 1993 and have been around for 18 years so would make for a fair and interesting comparison.

                                                  > Finally, there is resale value. Very few boats will hold their value as > well as Sabre. Island Packet does pretty well, as do brands like Pacific
                                                  > Seacraft, Morris, and other higher end builders. They hold the test of time
                                                  > well, stand up to use well and when you go to sell, they are hard to find in
                                                  > any kind of quantity since the builders didn't build many in any given
                                                • oldsailor36@verizon.net
                                                  When you say I am at a loss as to how best to view a boat s ability to hold value over time you are in good company. Simply looking at the difference between
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jan 3, 2011
                                                  • 0 Attachment

                                                    When you say "I am at a loss as to how best to view a boat's ability to hold value over time" you are in good company. Simply looking at the difference between the original selling price and the used price years later is only a part of the story. In addition to that you have to look at how much it cost to maintain the value of a particular boat. For instance, looking at the S362s on Yachtworld, circa mid 90s, the prices range from $175 - $105k. You can bet that the difference between them is largely due to their condition. Obviously the $105k boat is not in particularly good condition which a cursory look at the photos provided strongly suggests. In fact, that price might be too high whereas the $175k might be quite fair if somewhat unrealistic in these troubled times (another factor that complicates everything).

                                                    These 362s need a steady influx of cash to maintain their value (a fact that I am intimately familiar with) yet when the boat is sold there is little expectation of recovering much of it. For the Benetau class of boats the situation is far simpler. They are less costly to maintain because they have less stuff on them that requires the kind of cosmetic attention that 362s and other Sabres demand. Another good example of this is the venerable Hinckley Bermuda 40, a boat that I have spent a lot of cramped time on while getting wet, which sailors have drooled over since its lauching generations ago. If you look at Yachtworld prices for them they'll range from $219k down to $95k. Only love stricken souls would buy the $95k one and one surely will. Same quality in all these boat but one obviously didn't get the attention that it demanded. There is a reason for that. In our anchorage we have a bunch of Hinckleys and others of that ilk, of all ages and sizes that are beautiful to behold. One day I asked the yard manager how much it costs to just do the varnish (don't even think about Cetol) on all that trim. He said about $12-15k each year. Each year!!!

                                                    But beyond the dubious question "Will my boat hold its value?" is the more significant question, "Does my boat make economic sense?". The answer to the former question is "not as much as you'd like" while to the latter question it is a resounding NO, particulary for us poor souls who sail in the Northeast and are lucky to have 3 or 4 months of good sailing weather. So why do otherwise sensible men (and it's invariably men) buy such a economically nonsensical thing like a boat, because they are passionately driven to do so. And like all the passionate things in life, cost is the least consideration; if it were there would be no boat industry

                                                    Jer

                                                     

                                                    --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Hi:
                                                    > We all have access to Yachtworld, but I am at a loss as to how best to view a boat's ability to hold its value over time. One way would be to divide the the average sale price of an older boat by its original price. This ignores inflation, but if you compared makes and models introduced around the same time, that would tend to cancel out. Of course, I don't have access to the original sale price; wonder if anyone does for say a Sabre 362 and a Beneteau 400. According to my notes, these were both introduced in 1993 and have been around for 18 years so would make for a fair and interesting comparison.
                                                    >
                                                    > > Finally, there is resale value. Very few boats will hold their value as > well as Sabre. Island Packet does pretty well, as do brands like Pacific
                                                    > > Seacraft, Morris, and other higher end builders. They hold the test of time
                                                    > > well, stand up to use well and when you go to sell, they are hard to find in
                                                    > > any kind of quantity since the builders didn't build many in any given
                                                    >

                                                  • R Coerse
                                                    Well said. To some of us, sailing is not a matter of life or death, it is far more important than that. :-) Dick Coerse Early Light 1982 Sabre 34 MK I #160
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Jan 3, 2011
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                                                      Well said. 
                                                      To some of us, sailing is not a matter of life or death, it is far more important than that. :-)


                                                      Dick Coerse
                                                      "Early Light"
                                                      1982 Sabre 34 MK I #160
                                                      Solomons, MD


                                                      On 1/3/2011 7:43 AM, oldsailor36@... wrote:
                                                       

                                                      When you say "I am at a loss as to how best to view a boat's ability to hold value over time" you are in good company. Simply looking at the difference between the original selling price and the used price years later is only a part of the story. In addition to that you have to look at how much it cost to maintain the value of a particular boat. For instance, looking at the S362s on Yachtworld, circa mid 90s, the prices range from $175 - $105k. You can bet that the difference between them is largely due to their condition. Obviously the $105k boat is not in particularly good condition which a cursory look at the photos provided strongly suggests. In fact, that price might be too high whereas the $175k might be quite fair if somewhat unrealistic in these troubled times (another factor that complicates everything).

                                                      These 362s need a steady influx of cash to maintain their value (a fact that I am intimately familiar with) yet when the boat is sold there is little expectation of recovering much of it. For the Benetau class of boats the situation is far simpler. They are less costly to maintain because they have less stuff on them that requires the kind of cosmetic attention that 362s and other Sabres demand. Another good example of this is the venerable Hinckley Bermuda 40, a boat that I have spent a lot of cramped time on while getting wet, which sailors have drooled over since its lauching generations ago. If you look at Yachtworld prices for them they'll range from $219k down to $95k. Only love stricken souls would buy the $95k one and one surely will. Same quality in all these boat but one obviously didn't get the attention that it demanded. There is a reason for that. In our anchorage we have a bunch of Hinckleys! and others of that ilk, of all ages and sizes that are beautiful to behold. One day I asked the yard manager how much it costs to just do the varnish (don't even think about Cetol) on all that trim. He said about $12-15k each year. Each year!!!

                                                      But beyond the dubious question "Will my boat hold its value?" is the more significant question, "Does my boat make economic sense?". The answer to the former question is "not as much as you'd like" while to the latter question it is a resounding NO, particulary for us poor souls who sail in the Northeast and are lucky to have 3 or 4 months of good sailing weather. So why do otherwise sensible men (and it's invariably men) buy such a economically nonsensical thing like a boat, because they are passionately driven to do so. And like all the passionate things in life, cost is the least consideration; if it were there would be no boat industry

                                                      Jer

                                                       

                                                      --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi:
                                                      > We all have access to Yachtworld, but I am at a loss as to how best to view a boat's ability to hold its value over time. One way would be to divide the the average sale price of an older boat by its original price. This ignores inflation, but if you compared makes and models introduced around the same time, that would tend to cancel out. Of course, I don't have access to the original sale price; wonder if anyone does for say a Sabre 362 and a Beneteau 400. According to my notes, these were both introduced in 1993 and have been around for 18 years so would make for a fair and interesting comparison.
                                                      >
                                                      > > Finally, there is resale value. Very few boats will hold their value as > well as Sabre. Island Packet does pretty well, as do brands like Pacific
                                                      > > Seacraft, Morris, and other higher end builders. They hold the test of time
                                                      > > well! , stand up to use well and when you go to sell, they are hard to find in
                                                      > > any kind of quantity since the builders didn't build many in any given
                                                      >


                                                    • flroots
                                                      Thanks for the treatise on this subject; well said Pete
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Jan 4, 2011
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Thanks for the treatise on this subject; well said
                                                        Pete

                                                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "oldsailor36@..." <oldsailor36@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > When you say "I am at a loss as to how best to view a boat's ability to
                                                        > hold value over time" you are in good company. Simply looking at the
                                                        > difference between the original selling price and the used price years
                                                        > later is only a part of the story. In addition to that you have to look
                                                        > at how much it cost to maintain the value of a particular boat. For
                                                        > instance, looking at the S362s on Yachtworld, circa mid 90s, the prices
                                                        > range from $175 - $105k. You can bet that the difference between them is
                                                        > largely due to their condition. Obviously the $105k boat is not in
                                                        > particularly good condition which a cursory look at the photos provided
                                                        > strongly suggests. In fact, that price might be too high whereas the
                                                        > $175k might be quite fair if somewhat unrealistic in these troubled
                                                        > times (another factor that complicates everything).
                                                        >
                                                        > These 362s need a steady influx of cash to maintain their value (a fact
                                                        > that I am intimately familiar with) yet when the boat is sold there is
                                                        > little expectation of recovering much of it. For the Benetau class of
                                                        > boats the situation is far simpler. They are less costly to maintain
                                                        > because they have less stuff on them that requires the kind of cosmetic
                                                        > attention that 362s and other Sabres demand. Another good example of
                                                        > this is the venerable Hinckley Bermuda 40, a boat that I have spent a
                                                        > lot of cramped time on while getting wet, which sailors have drooled
                                                        > over since its lauching generations ago. If you look at Yachtworld
                                                        > prices for them they'll range from $219k down to $95k. Only love
                                                        > stricken souls would buy the $95k one and one surely will. Same quality
                                                        > in all these boat but one obviously didn't get the attention that it
                                                        > demanded. There is a reason for that. In our anchorage we have a bunch
                                                        > of Hinckleys and others of that ilk, of all ages and sizes that are
                                                        > beautiful to behold. One day I asked the yard manager how much it costs
                                                        > to just do the varnish (don't even think about Cetol) on all that trim.
                                                        > He said about $12-15k each year. Each year!!!
                                                        >
                                                        > But beyond the dubious question "Will my boat hold its value?" is the
                                                        > more significant question, "Does my boat make economic sense?". The
                                                        > answer to the former question is "not as much as you'd like" while to
                                                        > the latter question it is a resounding NO, particulary for us poor souls
                                                        > who sail in the Northeast and are lucky to have 3 or 4 months of good
                                                        > sailing weather. So why do otherwise sensible men (and it's invariably
                                                        > men) buy such a economically nonsensical thing like a boat, because they
                                                        > are passionately driven to do so. And like all the passionate things in
                                                        > life, cost is the least consideration; if it were there would be no boat
                                                        > industry
                                                        >
                                                        > Jer
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "flroots" <flroots@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Hi:
                                                        > > We all have access to Yachtworld, but I am at a loss as to how best to
                                                        > view a boat's ability to hold its value over time. One way would be to
                                                        > divide the the average sale price of an older boat by its original
                                                        > price. This ignores inflation, but if you compared makes and models
                                                        > introduced around the same time, that would tend to cancel out. Of
                                                        > course, I don't have access to the original sale price; wonder if anyone
                                                        > does for say a Sabre 362 and a Beneteau 400. According to my notes,
                                                        > these were both introduced in 1993 and have been around for 18 years so
                                                        > would make for a fair and interesting comparison.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > > Finally, there is resale value. Very few boats will hold their value
                                                        > as > well as Sabre. Island Packet does pretty well, as do brands like
                                                        > Pacific
                                                        > > > Seacraft, Morris, and other higher end builders. They hold the test
                                                        > of time
                                                        > > > well, stand up to use well and when you go to sell, they are hard to
                                                        > find in
                                                        > > > any kind of quantity since the builders didn't build many in any
                                                        > given
                                                        > >
                                                        >
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