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Puzzler #1 Engine Coolant

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  • followingsea2001
    Some of you know Click and Clack the Car Guys on Public Radio. Well, in line with their show I have some puzzlers for the Sabre group to help me solve. There
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 31, 2006
      Some of you know Click and Clack the Car Guys on Public Radio. Well,
      in line with their show I have some puzzlers for the Sabre group to
      help me solve. There will be three in the series.
      Puzzler # 1
      We have had problems with coolant loss on our W27A which lead to
      replacing the manifold and all the coolant hoses. But we stil have
      some coolant losses. Typically we lose about an ounce or less per
      operating hour. Suspects were the heat exchanger and the Raritan
      water heater. There is no sign of water in the oil and although
      some bubbles have been observed in the coolant expansion tank when
      first speeding up to crusing speed underway, there is no sign of oil
      or black soot in the coolant expansion tank.
      Now for the kicker. Twenty four hours after using the engine, the
      coolant was observed to be two or three ounces low. However, on
      returning to the boat four days later the coolant was again back to
      the normal level. This phenonmnon has now happened twice in a row.
      Anyone have any ideas what could explain this? Is there a coolant
      leak and if so where is it and why does the fluid return to normal
      over time?
    • john kalinowski
      when the engine gets hot, it puts extra fluid into the holding tank. Once cool, it sucks it back in in. Could be you are checking at different times? eg it
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 1, 2006
        when the engine gets hot, it puts extra fluid into the holding tank.
        Once cool, it sucks it back in in.
        Could be you are checking at different times?
        eg it look low when it fact the fluid has been sucked into the engine because of a leak.
        It looks correct, when the engine is warm and has pushed antifreeze into the tank.
         
        To check for leaks, I would suggest a pressure tester to see if the system holds presure. May have to close of the tank line. If it doesn't hold, spray the cold motor with soapy water and look for bubbles.
         
        If not, remove the 2 lines to the heater and insert a coupler and retest. If it now holds presure, it is the tank.

        followingsea2001 <mnthomas@...> wrote:
        Some of you know Click and Clack the Car Guys on Public Radio. Well,
        in line with their show I have some puzzlers for the Sabre group to
        help me solve. There will be three in the series.
        Puzzler # 1
        We have had problems with coolant loss on our W27A which lead to
        replacing the manifold and all the coolant hoses.  But we stil have
        some coolant losses. Typically we lose about an ounce  or less per
        operating hour. Suspects were the heat exchanger and the Raritan
        water heater.  There is no sign of water in the oil and although
        some bubbles have been observed in the coolant expansion tank when
        first speeding up to crusing speed underway, there is no sign of oil
        or black soot in the coolant expansion tank.
        Now for the kicker. Twenty four hours after using the engine, the
        coolant was observed to be two or three ounces low.  However, on
        returning to the boat four days later the coolant was again back to
        the normal level. This phenonmnon has now happened twice in a row.
        Anyone have any ideas what could explain this? Is there a coolant
        leak and if so where is it and why does the fluid return to normal
        over time?






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      • gmuller22
        Here s a possible explanation. When your hot coolant returns to ambient condition it creates a slight vacuum in your coolant system. Over time air can be drawn
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 1, 2006
          Here's a possible explanation. When your hot coolant returns to
          ambient condition it creates a slight vacuum in your coolant system.
          Over time air can be drawn in by this vacuum allowing the water
          level to rise. The place where this air leakage occurs could also be
          the place where you are losing coolantwhich is often the pressure
          cap on the coolant tank (put a new pressure cap and see what
          happens). Another possibility is that ,instead of air, water is
          being drawn in from your water heater or heat exchanger.

          The first of the possibilities is annoying but not serious, the
          second is a problem that needs to be dealt with.


          Gerard

          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "followingsea2001"
          <mnthomas@...> wrote:
          >
          > Some of you know Click and Clack the Car Guys on Public Radio.
          Well,
          > in line with their show I have some puzzlers for the Sabre group
          to
          > help me solve. There will be three in the series.
          > Puzzler # 1
          > We have had problems with coolant loss on our W27A which lead to
          > replacing the manifold and all the coolant hoses. But we stil
          have
          > some coolant losses. Typically we lose about an ounce or less per
          > operating hour. Suspects were the heat exchanger and the Raritan
          > water heater. There is no sign of water in the oil and although
          > some bubbles have been observed in the coolant expansion tank when
          > first speeding up to crusing speed underway, there is no sign of
          oil
          > or black soot in the coolant expansion tank.
          > Now for the kicker. Twenty four hours after using the engine, the
          > coolant was observed to be two or three ounces low. However, on
          > returning to the boat four days later the coolant was again back
          to
          > the normal level. This phenonmnon has now happened twice in a row.
          > Anyone have any ideas what could explain this? Is there a coolant
          > leak and if so where is it and why does the fluid return to normal
          > over time?
          >
        • followingsea2001
          Gerard, Thanks for you suggestions. Since the pressure cap is new (came witht the new manifold), that leaves the water heater as prime suspect. I agree with
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 1, 2006
            Gerard,
            Thanks for you suggestions. Since the pressure cap is new (came
            witht the new manifold), that leaves the water heater as prime
            suspect. I agree with your theory that the water heater may have a
            leak and that leak could work two ways. When running the engine the
            pressure in the engine is at its normal 14lbs per sq. inch, the
            coolant escapes through a leake in the coils into the hot water
            tank. Once back at the slip, as the engine cools the level in the
            coolant expansion tank reflects this loss. However, over time the
            pressurized water in the hot water tank brings the level back up
            through the leak in the water heater coils.
            This afternoon I disconnected the water heater(using a new section
            of hose) and we shall see if the problem continues.
            Martin


            --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "gmuller22" <gmuller22@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Here's a possible explanation. When your hot coolant returns to
            > ambient condition it creates a slight vacuum in your coolant
            system.
            > Over time air can be drawn in by this vacuum allowing the water
            > level to rise. The place where this air leakage occurs could also
            be
            > the place where you are losing coolantwhich is often the pressure
            > cap on the coolant tank (put a new pressure cap and see what
            > happens). Another possibility is that ,instead of air, water is
            > being drawn in from your water heater or heat exchanger.
            >
            > The first of the possibilities is annoying but not serious, the
            > second is a problem that needs to be dealt with.
            >
            >
            > Gerard
            >
            > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "followingsea2001"
            > <mnthomas@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Some of you know Click and Clack the Car Guys on Public Radio.
            > Well,
            > > in line with their show I have some puzzlers for the Sabre group
            > to
            > > help me solve. There will be three in the series.
            > > Puzzler # 1
            > > We have had problems with coolant loss on our W27A which lead to
            > > replacing the manifold and all the coolant hoses. But we stil
            > have
            > > some coolant losses. Typically we lose about an ounce or less
            per
            > > operating hour. Suspects were the heat exchanger and the Raritan
            > > water heater. There is no sign of water in the oil and although
            > > some bubbles have been observed in the coolant expansion tank
            when
            > > first speeding up to crusing speed underway, there is no sign of
            > oil
            > > or black soot in the coolant expansion tank.
            > > Now for the kicker. Twenty four hours after using the engine,
            the
            > > coolant was observed to be two or three ounces low. However, on
            > > returning to the boat four days later the coolant was again back
            > to
            > > the normal level. This phenonmnon has now happened twice in a
            row.
            > > Anyone have any ideas what could explain this? Is there a
            coolant
            > > leak and if so where is it and why does the fluid return to
            normal
            > > over time?
            > >
            >
          • followingsea2001
            John, All measurements of coolant were made with the enginve fully cold. So, I like your theory that the water heater might be the problem. Not having a
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 1, 2006
              John,
              All measurements of coolant were made with the enginve fully cold.
              So, I like your theory that the water heater might be the problem.
              Not having a prexsure tester, I simply disconected the hoses that go
              to the water heater and bridged them with a new paice of hose. We
              shall shortly see if you and Gerard had the right answer to Puzzler
              #1
              Martin

              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, john kalinowski
              <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
              >
              > when the engine gets hot, it puts extra fluid into the holding
              tank.
              > Once cool, it sucks it back in in.
              > Could be you are checking at different times?
              > eg it look low when it fact the fluid has been sucked into the
              engine because of a leak.
              > It looks correct, when the engine is warm and has pushed
              antifreeze into the tank.
              >
              > To check for leaks, I would suggest a pressure tester to see if
              the system holds presure. May have to close of the tank line. If it
              doesn't hold, spray the cold motor with soapy water and look for
              bubbles.
              >
              > If not, remove the 2 lines to the heater and insert a coupler
              and retest. If it now holds presure, it is the tank.
              >
              > followingsea2001 <mnthomas@...> wrote:
              > Some of you know Click and Clack the Car Guys on Public Radio.
              Well,
              > in line with their show I have some puzzlers for the Sabre group
              to
              > help me solve. There will be three in the series.
              > Puzzler # 1
              > We have had problems with coolant loss on our W27A which lead to
              > replacing the manifold and all the coolant hoses. But we stil
              have
              > some coolant losses. Typically we lose about an ounce or less per
              > operating hour. Suspects were the heat exchanger and the Raritan
              > water heater. There is no sign of water in the oil and although
              > some bubbles have been observed in the coolant expansion tank when
              > first speeding up to crusing speed underway, there is no sign of
              oil
              > or black soot in the coolant expansion tank.
              > Now for the kicker. Twenty four hours after using the engine, the
              > coolant was observed to be two or three ounces low. However, on
              > returning to the boat four days later the coolant was again back
              to
              > the normal level. This phenonmnon has now happened twice in a row.
              > Anyone have any ideas what could explain this? Is there a coolant
              > leak and if so where is it and why does the fluid return to normal
              > over time?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Tom Maynes
              I think your water heater may not be the problem. The water system, when pressurized, operates at 30# to 40#. Therefore, water would likely always leak
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 2, 2006
                I  think your water heater may not be the problem.  The water system, when pressurized, operates at 30# to 40#.  Therefore, water would likely always leak toward the engine when you have the water system pressurized.
                 
                I suggest that a likely cause would be leakage at hose clamps when the engine is running at temperature.  Such leaks are almost impossible to see because the liquid evaporates on contact w/ the engine, and vaporizes quickly at the hose conn.  I've solved this exact problem in the past by retightening all my hose clamps.  This is a less expensive "first step" than replacing the water heater.
                 
                I don't know why your expansion tank "refilled" except that until the engine has been thoroughly cooled (24hr+) the coolant level can vary.
                 
                Tom
                Applewine S34-1

                followingsea2001 <mnthomas@...> wrote:
                Gerard,
                Thanks for you suggestions. Since the pressure cap is new (came
                witht the new manifold), that leaves the water heater as prime
                suspect. I agree with your theory that the water heater may have a
                leak and that leak could work two ways. When running the engine the
                pressure in the engine is at its normal 14lbs per sq. inch, the
                coolant escapes through a leake in the coils into the hot water
                tank.  Once back at the slip, as the engine cools the level in the
                coolant expansion tank reflects this loss. However, over time the
                pressurized water in the hot water tank brings the level back up
                through the leak in the water heater coils. 
                This afternoon I disconnected the water heater(using a new section
                of hose) and we shall see if the problem continues.
                Martin


                --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "gmuller22" <gmuller22@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Here's a possible explanation. When your hot coolant returns to
                > ambient condition it creates a slight vacuum in your coolant
                system.
                > Over time air can be drawn in by this vacuum allowing the water
                > level to rise. The place where this air leakage occurs could also
                be
                > the place where you are losing coolantwhich is often the pressure
                > cap on the coolant tank (put a new pressure cap and see what
                > happens). Another possibility is that ,instead of air, water is
                > being drawn in from your water heater or heat exchanger.
                >
                > The first of the possibilities is annoying but not serious, the
                > second is a problem that needs to be dealt with.
                >
                >
                > Gerard
                >
                > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "followingsea2001"
                > <mnthomas@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Some of you know Click and Clack the Car Guys on Public Radio.
                > Well,
                > > in line with their show I have some puzzlers for the Sabre group
                > to
                > > help me solve. There will be three in the series.
                > > Puzzler # 1
                > > We have had problems with coolant loss on our W27A which lead to
                > > replacing the manifold and all the coolant hoses.  But we stil
                > have
                > > some coolant losses. Typically we lose about an ounce  or less
                per
                > > operating hour. Suspects were the heat exchanger and the Raritan
                > > water heater.  There is no sign of water in the oil and although
                > > some bubbles have been observed in the coolant expansion tank
                when
                > > first speeding up to crusing speed underway, there is no sign of
                > oil
                > > or black soot in the coolant expansion tank.
                > > Now for the kicker. Twenty four hours after using the engine,
                the
                > > coolant was observed to be two or three ounces low.  However, on
                > > returning to the boat four days later the coolant was again back
                > to
                > > the normal level. This phenonmnon has now happened twice in a
                row.
                > > Anyone have any ideas what could explain this? Is there a
                coolant
                > > leak and if so where is it and why does the fluid return to
                normal
                > > over time?
                > >
                >






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