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Re: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads

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  • bruceheyman@cox.net
    Pete, Sorry you weren t able to enjoy the boat much this summer. Assume you ve changed the filter to make sure critters have set up house. Otherwise you are
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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      Pete,
      Sorry you weren't able to enjoy the boat much this summer. Assume you've changed the filter to make sure critters have set up house.
      Otherwise you are probably on the right track with the injectors.
      Best,
      Bruce

      Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T


      From: Peter Tollini <pete@...>
      Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:37:52 -0500
      To: <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads

       

      After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses, weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to start, with lots of cranking and black smoke.  When I got out, it wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke.  I'm thinking dirty/leaky injectors.  Any other thoughts or sugggestions?
      Pete
      Solace
      S30 200
    • Dave Lochner
      Pete, This summer when Identity Crisis finally hit the water, I was similarly greeted with hard starting and black smoke in quantities not seen since a 1950 s
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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        Pete,

        This summer when Identity Crisis finally hit the water, I was similarly greeted with hard starting and black smoke in quantities not seen since a 1950's truck stop. I put some diesel fuel treatment in the tank and gradually the smoke diminished. So, I'd go with some injector cleaner first.

        Dave


        On Dec 1, 2009, at 6:11 AM, bruceheyman@... wrote:

         

        Pete,
        Sorry you weren't able to enjoy the boat much this summer. Assume you've changed the filter to make sure critters have set up house.
        Otherwise you are probably on the right track with the injectors.
        Best,
        Bruce

        Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T


        From: Peter Tollini <pete@tollini. com>
        Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:37:52 -0500
        To: <Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com>
        Subject: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads

         

        After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses, weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to start, with lots of cranking and black smoke.  When I got out, it wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke.  I'm thinking dirty/leaky injectors.  Any other thoughts or sugggestions?
        Pete
        Solace
        S30 200



      • Jeff Bartlett
        Will it rev over 1500 out of gear when warmed up? If you didn t use the boat much, is the prop/hull fouled with growth? Jeff B S28-546 To:
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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          Will it rev over 1500 out of gear when warmed up?
           
          If you didn't use the boat much, is the prop/hull fouled with growth?
           
          Jeff B
          S28-546
           

          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
          From: pete@...
          Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:37:52 -0500
          Subject: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads

           
          After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses, weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to start, with lots of cranking and black smoke.  When I got out, it wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke.  I'm thinking dirty/leaky injectors.  Any other thoughts or sugggestions?
          Pete
          Solace
          S30 200




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        • Al Lorman
          Pete: Jeff makes a good point; this was an unusually foul year on the Bay. I had similar rpm problems with my Yanmar (it only reached 2,000) and the boat was
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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            Pete:

             

            Jeff makes a good point; this was an unusually foul year on the Bay.  I had similar rpm problems with my Yanmar (it only reached 2,000) and the boat was just plain slow under power.  I don’t recall having any black smoke.  I had a diver clean the bottom and all the symptoms disappeared.  Obviously, this won’t solve your starting problems, but that could be a different issue entirely.

             

            Al Lorman

             

            From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Bartlett
            Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:05 AM
            To: SabreList Yahoo
            Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads

             

             

            Will it rev over 1500 out of gear when warmed up?
             
            If you didn't use the boat much, is the prop/hull fouled with growth?
             
            Jeff B
            S28-546
             


            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
            From: pete@...
            Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:37:52 -0500
            Subject: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads

             

            After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses, weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to start, with lots of cranking and black smoke.  When I got out, it wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke.  I'm thinking dirty/leaky injectors.  Any other thoughts or sugggestions?

            Pete

            Solace

            S30 200

             

             


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          • THOMPSON, GREGORY
            Have you tried checking filters in racor, secondary (if you have one) and lift pump. I am sure you will find a lot of information about fuel related issues in
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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              Have you tried checking filters in racor, secondary (if you have one) and lift pump. I am sure you will find a lot of information about fuel related issues in the archive.  I would take a look at all of the filters just to see if they look clear.  If not, you might be sucking some gunk through.  Was your fuel tank agitated much?  That could loosen gunk and clog either the intake or filters or both.  That could be a source of low rpms.  Not sure what to attribute the black smoke to.  I am a startron convert and highly recommend it to my marina friends.   

               

              Greg T.

               


              From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Bartlett
              Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:05 AM
              To: SabreList Yahoo
              Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads

               

               

              Will it rev over 1500 out of gear when warmed up?
               
              If you didn't use the boat much, is the prop/hull fouled with growth?
               
              Jeff B
              S28-546
               


              To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
              From: pete@tollini. com
              Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:37:52 -0500
              Subject: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads

               

              After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses, weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to start, with lots of cranking and black smoke.  When I got out, it wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke.  I'm thinking dirty/leaky injectors.  Any other thoughts or sugggestions?

              Pete

              Solace

              S30 200

               

               


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            • jack horner
              Marvel mystery oil will cut the black smoke.. Lee ________________________________ From: THOMPSON, GREGORY To:
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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                Marvel mystery oil will cut the black smoke..  Lee


                From: "THOMPSON, GREGORY" <gregory.thompson@...>
                To: "Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com" <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tue, December 1, 2009 10:16:11 AM
                Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads

                 

                Have you tried checking filters in racor, secondary (if you have one) and lift pump. I am sure you will find a lot of information about fuel related issues in the archive.  I would take a look at all of the filters just to see if they look clear.  If not, you might be sucking some gunk through.  Was your fuel tank agitated much?  That could loosen gunk and clog either the intake or filters or both.  That could be a source of low rpms.  Not sure what to attribute the black smoke to.  I am a startron convert and highly recommend it to my marina friends.   

                 

                Greg T.

                 


                From: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Sabresailbo at@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Jeff Bartlett
                Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:05 AM
                To: SabreList Yahoo
                Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads

                 

                 

                Will it rev over 1500 out of gear when warmed up?
                 
                If you didn't use the boat much, is the prop/hull fouled with growth?
                 
                Jeff B
                S28-546
                 


                To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                From: pete@tollini. com
                Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:37:52 -0500
                Subject: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads

                 

                After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses, weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to start, with lots of cranking and black smoke.  When I got out, it wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke.  I'm thinking dirty/leaky injectors.  Any other thoughts or sugggestions?

                Pete

                Solace

                S30 200

                 

                 


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              • Jim Starkey
                ... Black smoke means one of two things: Either incomplete combustion or a pope hasn t been elected. Assuming you re not sailing the Sistine Chapel, lets
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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                  Peter Tollini wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses,
                  > weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to
                  > start, with lots of cranking and black smoke. When I got out, it
                  > wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke. I'm
                  > thinking dirty/leaky injectors. Any other thoughts or sugggestions?

                  Black smoke means one of two things: Either incomplete combustion or a
                  pope hasn't been elected. Assuming you're not sailing the Sistine
                  Chapel, lets assume the former.

                  You might check your air filter. Blockage would explain all your
                  symptoms. Besides, checking cheaps things first is always a good strategy.

                  I had plenty of experience with clogged fuel filters during the Racor
                  switcheroo. On a W27, the engine would develop full power, then
                  gradually lose RPM, and eventually die. Fifteen minutes later, it would
                  be willing to run again as fuel osmosed through the filter. That
                  doesn't sound at all like what you've got.

                  Water in the fuel is highly unlikely unless your Racor is saturated, and
                  then it would probably kill the engine after destroying the injector pump.

                  I also could be a dead cylinder due to low compression. A compression
                  check is also cheap and will probably yield good news, at least from the
                  wallet perspective.


                  --
                  Jim Starkey
                  Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
                  978 526-1376
                • Leonard Bertaux
                  Peter The following describes general diagnostic indications from various colour exhausts: 1. EXCESSIVE EXHAUST SMOKE Excessive diesel smoke is due to
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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                    Peter

                    The following describes general diagnostic indications from various colour exhausts:

                    "1. EXCESSIVE EXHAUST SMOKE 
                    Excessive diesel smoke is due to incomplete combustion, normally caused by faulty injection system or other engine troubles. A small amount of exhaust smoke is normal during initial start-up or rapid acceleration. 
                    Type of Smoke 
                    Abnormal Exhaust smoke may be black, white or blue. Each type of smoke indicates engine problems and these are discussed below: 

                    Black Smoke 

                    Excessive black smoke is caused by a rich air-fuel mixture. This may result form problems with the injection pump or infection timing, which may in turn be clue to a choked air cleaner, worn fuel injectors, adulterated diesel fuel or the engine itself. 

                    White Smoke 

                    White smoke occurs mainly during cold starts, when the fuel tends to condense into liquid and does not burn due to cold engine parts. The most common reason for white smoke are in-operative glow plugs low engine compression, a bad injector spray pattern, late injection timing or injection pump problems. 

                    Blue Smoke 

                    Excessive blue smoke indicates problems from low engine compression and/or worn piston rings, scored cylinder walls or leaking valve stem seals The blue smoke is caused by crankcase oil entering the combustion chamber and being emitted after partial combustion through the exhaust"

                    Len
                    s/v Walkabout
                    S38 MKII


                    On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Jim Starkey wrote:

                     

                    Peter Tollini wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses,
                    > weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to
                    > start, with lots of cranking and black smoke. When I got out, it
                    > wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke. I'm
                    > thinking dirty/leaky injectors. Any other thoughts or sugggestions?

                    Black smoke means one of two things: Either incomplete combustion or a
                    pope hasn't been elected. Assuming you're not sailing the Sistine
                    Chapel, lets assume the former.

                    You might check your air filter. Blockage would explain all your
                    symptoms. Besides, checking cheaps things first is always a good strategy.

                    I had plenty of experience with clogged fuel filters during the Racor
                    switcheroo. On a W27, the engine would develop full power, then
                    gradually lose RPM, and eventually die. Fifteen minutes later, it would
                    be willing to run again as fuel osmosed through the filter. That
                    doesn't sound at all like what you've got.

                    Water in the fuel is highly unlikely unless your Racor is saturated, and
                    then it would probably kill the engine after destroying the injector pump.

                    I also could be a dead cylinder due to low compression. A compression
                    check is also cheap and will probably yield good news, at least from the
                    wallet perspective.

                    --
                    Jim Starkey
                    Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
                    978 526-1376


                  • Peter Tollini
                    Guys - Thanks for the responses. It has a new fuel tank, and fresh racor (w/spacer), lift pump and injector pump filters. It will rev to 2500 (3000 is
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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                      Guys -
                      Thanks for the responses.  It has a new fuel tank, and fresh racor (w/spacer), lift pump and injector pump filters.  It will rev to 2500 (3000 is governor tops) in neutral, still w/ lots of black smoke.  Starting is a lot of cranking, with tons of black smoke prior to eventually running.  My semi-educated guess is an injector or two not closing completely.  That would sure equal excess fuel. The good news is that Baltimore Diesel Service tests and rebuilds all types of injectors, including small marine diesels with a one-day turnaround for <$100 per injector. I got that tidbit from a local farmer. (They get real irritable waiting combine parts this time of year)  New injector from W is $475.  Makes Mercedes parts cheap by comparison!
                      I will check to make sure that Mickey & Minnie have not shacked up in the air inlet, though.
                      Pete

                      On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@...> wrote:
                       

                      Peter


                      The following describes general diagnostic indications from various colour exhausts:

                      "1. EXCESSIVE EXHAUST SMOKE 
                      Excessive diesel smoke is due to incomplete combustion, normally caused by faulty injection system or other engine troubles. A small amount of exhaust smoke is normal during initial start-up or rapid acceleration. 
                      Type of Smoke 
                      Abnormal Exhaust smoke may be black, white or blue. Each type of smoke indicates engine problems and these are discussed below: 

                      Black Smoke 

                      Excessive black smoke is caused by a rich air-fuel mixture. This may result form problems with the injection pump or infection timing, which may in turn be clue to a choked air cleaner, worn fuel injectors, adulterated diesel fuel or the engine itself. 

                      White Smoke 

                      White smoke occurs mainly during cold starts, when the fuel tends to condense into liquid and does not burn due to cold engine parts. The most common reason for white smoke are in-operative glow plugs low engine compression, a bad injector spray pattern, late injection timing or injection pump problems. 

                      Blue Smoke 

                      Excessive blue smoke indicates problems from low engine compression and/or worn piston rings, scored cylinder walls or leaking valve stem seals The blue smoke is caused by crankcase oil entering the combustion chamber and being emitted after partial combustion through the exhaust"

                      Len
                      s/v Walkabout
                      S38 MKII


                      On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Jim Starkey wrote:

                       

                      Peter Tollini wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses,
                      > weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to
                      > start, with lots of cranking and black smoke. When I got out, it
                      > wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke. I'm
                      > thinking dirty/leaky injectors. Any other thoughts or sugggestions?

                      Black smoke means one of two things: Either incomplete combustion or a
                      pope hasn't been elected. Assuming you're not sailing the Sistine
                      Chapel, lets assume the former.

                      You might check your air filter. Blockage would explain all your
                      symptoms. Besides, checking cheaps things first is always a good strategy.

                      I had plenty of experience with clogged fuel filters during the Racor
                      switcheroo. On a W27, the engine would develop full power, then
                      gradually lose RPM, and eventually die. Fifteen minutes later, it would
                      be willing to run again as fuel osmosed through the filter. That
                      doesn't sound at all like what you've got.

                      Water in the fuel is highly unlikely unless your Racor is saturated, and
                      then it would probably kill the engine after destroying the injector pump.

                      I also could be a dead cylinder due to low compression. A compression
                      check is also cheap and will probably yield good news, at least from the
                      wallet perspective.

                      --
                      Jim Starkey
                      Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
                      978 526-1376



                    • workshoe99
                      Peter, Last winter when I was still trying to save our W33, I sent the injectors out for a bench test at $75 a pop. At that time I was made to understand
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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                        Peter,

                        Last winter when I was still trying to "save" our W33, I sent the injectors out for a bench test at $75 a pop. At that time I was made to understand that an injector shop could replace the barrels and use new shims ($15=/-) to get them into a "rebuilt" condition. I was able to get all four injectors tested and "reconditioned" for $325 if my mind serves me right. I know I did not have to spend the $425 x 4 that new injectors would have run. Our problem turned out to be scoring on the #4 cylinder wall. You probably remember that as I posted the sad story here last year and that we now have a new 3TJH4E Yanmar down below. I hope you do not have to go that route. Because I did and I am now $16K lighter in the cruising kitty, I am writing from New Orleans where I am working instead of cruising this winter. Pooh! At least I am ashore with the rest of you instead of writing about the warm waters and wonderful anchorages in Mexico this winter!

                        Jan S38 Mk I #41 "Capriccio" Mazatlan, Mex.

                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Guys -
                        > Thanks for the responses. It has a new fuel tank, and fresh racor
                        > (w/spacer), lift pump and injector pump filters. It will rev to 2500 (3000
                        > is governor tops) in neutral, still w/ lots of black smoke. Starting is a
                        > lot of cranking, with tons of black smoke prior to eventually running. My
                        > semi-educated guess is an injector or two not closing completely. That
                        > would sure equal excess fuel. The good news is that Baltimore Diesel Service
                        > tests and rebuilds all types of injectors, including small marine
                        > diesels with a one-day turnaround for <$100 per injector. I got that tidbit
                        > from a local farmer. (They get real irritable waiting combine parts this
                        > time of year) New injector from W is $475. Makes Mercedes parts cheap by
                        > comparison!
                        > I will check to make sure that Mickey & Minnie have not shacked up in the
                        > air inlet, though.
                        > Pete
                        >
                        > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@...>wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Peter
                        > >
                        > > The following describes general diagnostic indications from various colour
                        > > exhausts:
                        > >
                        > > "1. EXCESSIVE EXHAUST SMOKE
                        > > Excessive diesel smoke is due to incomplete combustion, normally caused by
                        > > faulty injection system or other engine troubles. A small amount of exhaust
                        > > smoke is normal during initial start-up or rapid acceleration.
                        > > Type of Smoke
                        > > Abnormal Exhaust smoke may be black, white or blue. Each type of smoke
                        > > indicates engine problems and these are discussed below:
                        > >
                        > > Black Smoke
                        > >
                        > > Excessive black smoke is caused by a rich air-fuel mixture. This may result
                        > > form problems with the injection pump or infection timing, which may in turn
                        > > be clue to a choked air cleaner, worn fuel injectors, adulterated diesel
                        > > fuel or the engine itself.
                        > >
                        > > White Smoke
                        > >
                        > > White smoke occurs mainly during cold starts, when the fuel tends to
                        > > condense into liquid and does not burn due to cold engine parts. The most
                        > > common reason for white smoke are in-operative glow plugs low engine
                        > > compression, a bad injector spray pattern, late injection timing or
                        > > injection pump problems.
                        > >
                        > > Blue Smoke
                        > >
                        > > Excessive blue smoke indicates problems from low engine compression and/or
                        > > worn piston rings, scored cylinder walls or leaking valve stem seals The
                        > > blue smoke is caused by crankcase oil entering the combustion chamber and
                        > > being emitted after partial combustion through the exhaust"
                        > >
                        > > Len
                        > > s/v Walkabout
                        > > S38 MKII
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Jim Starkey wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Peter Tollini wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses,
                        > > > weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to
                        > > > start, with lots of cranking and black smoke. When I got out, it
                        > > > wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke. I'm
                        > > > thinking dirty/leaky injectors. Any other thoughts or sugggestions?
                        > >
                        > > Black smoke means one of two things: Either incomplete combustion or a
                        > > pope hasn't been elected. Assuming you're not sailing the Sistine
                        > > Chapel, lets assume the former.
                        > >
                        > > You might check your air filter. Blockage would explain all your
                        > > symptoms. Besides, checking cheaps things first is always a good strategy.
                        > >
                        > > I had plenty of experience with clogged fuel filters during the Racor
                        > > switcheroo. On a W27, the engine would develop full power, then
                        > > gradually lose RPM, and eventually die. Fifteen minutes later, it would
                        > > be willing to run again as fuel osmosed through the filter. That
                        > > doesn't sound at all like what you've got.
                        > >
                        > > Water in the fuel is highly unlikely unless your Racor is saturated, and
                        > > then it would probably kill the engine after destroying the injector pump.
                        > >
                        > > I also could be a dead cylinder due to low compression. A compression
                        > > check is also cheap and will probably yield good news, at least from the
                        > > wallet perspective.
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > Jim Starkey
                        > > Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
                        > > 978 526-1376
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • john kalinowski
                        Pete   Whether or not you need them, get those injector rebuilt and report back along with turn around time and the mailing address   : )  : )   Bonus
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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                          Pete
                           
                          Whether or not you need them, get those injector rebuilt and report back along with turn around time and the mailing address   :>)  :>)
                           
                          Bonus points if they give you a clue what the model injector so we can check with out local guys if they recondition them.

                          --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:

                          From: Peter Tollini <pete@...>
                          Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads
                          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 3:00 PM

                           
                          Guys -
                          Thanks for the responses.  It has a new fuel tank, and fresh racor (w/spacer), lift pump and injector pump filters.  It will rev to 2500 (3000 is governor tops) in neutral, still w/ lots of black smoke.  Starting is a lot of cranking, with tons of black smoke prior to eventually running.  My semi-educated guess is an injector or two not closing completely.  That would sure equal excess fuel. The good news is that Baltimore Diesel Service tests and rebuilds all types of injectors, including small marine diesels with a one-day turnaround for <$100 per injector. I got that tidbit from a local farmer. (They get real irritable waiting combine parts this time of year)  New injector from W is $475.  Makes Mercedes parts cheap by comparison!
                          I will check to make sure that Mickey & Minnie have not shacked up in the air inlet, though.
                          Pete

                          On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@comcast. net> wrote:
                           
                          Peter

                          The following describes general diagnostic indications from various colour exhausts:

                          "1. EXCESSIVE EXHAUST SMOKE 
                          Excessive diesel smoke is due to incomplete combustion, normally caused by faulty injection system or other engine troubles. A small amount of exhaust smoke is normal during initial start-up or rapid acceleration. 
                          Type of Smoke 
                          Abnormal Exhaust smoke may be black, white or blue. Each type of smoke indicates engine problems and these are discussed below: 

                          Black Smoke 

                          Excessive black smoke is caused by a rich air-fuel mixture. This may result form problems with the injection pump or infection timing, which may in turn be clue to a choked air cleaner, worn fuel injectors, adulterated diesel fuel or the engine itself. 

                          White Smoke 

                          White smoke occurs mainly during cold starts, when the fuel tends to condense into liquid and does not burn due to cold engine parts. The most common reason for white smoke are in-operative glow plugs low engine compression, a bad injector spray pattern, late injection timing or injection pump problems. 

                          Blue Smoke 

                          Excessive blue smoke indicates problems from low engine compression and/or worn piston rings, scored cylinder walls or leaking valve stem seals The blue smoke is caused by crankcase oil entering the combustion chamber and being emitted after partial combustion through the exhaust"

                          Len
                          s/v Walkabout
                          S38 MKII


                          On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Jim Starkey wrote:

                           
                          Peter Tollini wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses,
                          > weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to
                          > start, with lots of cranking and black smoke. When I got out, it
                          > wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke. I'm
                          > thinking dirty/leaky injectors. Any other thoughts or sugggestions?

                          Black smoke means one of two things: Either incomplete combustion or a
                          pope hasn't been elected. Assuming you're not sailing the Sistine
                          Chapel, lets assume the former.

                          You might check your air filter. Blockage would explain all your
                          symptoms. Besides, checking cheaps things first is always a good strategy.

                          I had plenty of experience with clogged fuel filters during the Racor
                          switcheroo. On a W27, the engine would develop full power, then
                          gradually lose RPM, and eventually die. Fifteen minutes later, it would
                          be willing to run again as fuel osmosed through the filter. That
                          doesn't sound at all like what you've got.

                          Water in the fuel is highly unlikely unless your Racor is saturated, and
                          then it would probably kill the engine after destroying the injector pump.

                          I also could be a dead cylinder due to low compression. A compression
                          check is also cheap and will probably yield good news, at least from the
                          wallet perspective.

                          --
                          Jim Starkey
                          Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
                          978 526-1376




                        • john kalinowski
                          Oh, and did you check the air cutoff at the motor was not misadjusted when the tank work was done.  Lack of air will be like too much fuel. ... From: Peter
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 1, 2009
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                            Oh, and did you check the air cutoff at the motor was not misadjusted when the tank work was done.  Lack of air will be like too much fuel.

                            --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:

                            From: Peter Tollini <pete@...>
                            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads
                            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 3:00 PM

                             
                            Guys -
                            Thanks for the responses.  It has a new fuel tank, and fresh racor (w/spacer), lift pump and injector pump filters.  It will rev to 2500 (3000 is governor tops) in neutral, still w/ lots of black smoke.  Starting is a lot of cranking, with tons of black smoke prior to eventually running.  My semi-educated guess is an injector or two not closing completely.  That would sure equal excess fuel. The good news is that Baltimore Diesel Service tests and rebuilds all types of injectors, including small marine diesels with a one-day turnaround for <$100 per injector. I got that tidbit from a local farmer. (They get real irritable waiting combine parts this time of year)  New injector from W is $475.  Makes Mercedes parts cheap by comparison!
                            I will check to make sure that Mickey & Minnie have not shacked up in the air inlet, though.
                            Pete

                            On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@comcast. net> wrote:
                             
                            Peter

                            The following describes general diagnostic indications from various colour exhausts:

                            "1. EXCESSIVE EXHAUST SMOKE 
                            Excessive diesel smoke is due to incomplete combustion, normally caused by faulty injection system or other engine troubles. A small amount of exhaust smoke is normal during initial start-up or rapid acceleration. 
                            Type of Smoke 
                            Abnormal Exhaust smoke may be black, white or blue. Each type of smoke indicates engine problems and these are discussed below: 

                            Black Smoke 

                            Excessive black smoke is caused by a rich air-fuel mixture. This may result form problems with the injection pump or infection timing, which may in turn be clue to a choked air cleaner, worn fuel injectors, adulterated diesel fuel or the engine itself. 

                            White Smoke 

                            White smoke occurs mainly during cold starts, when the fuel tends to condense into liquid and does not burn due to cold engine parts. The most common reason for white smoke are in-operative glow plugs low engine compression, a bad injector spray pattern, late injection timing or injection pump problems. 

                            Blue Smoke 

                            Excessive blue smoke indicates problems from low engine compression and/or worn piston rings, scored cylinder walls or leaking valve stem seals The blue smoke is caused by crankcase oil entering the combustion chamber and being emitted after partial combustion through the exhaust"

                            Len
                            s/v Walkabout
                            S38 MKII


                            On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Jim Starkey wrote:

                             
                            Peter Tollini wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses,
                            > weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to
                            > start, with lots of cranking and black smoke. When I got out, it
                            > wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke. I'm
                            > thinking dirty/leaky injectors. Any other thoughts or sugggestions?

                            Black smoke means one of two things: Either incomplete combustion or a
                            pope hasn't been elected. Assuming you're not sailing the Sistine
                            Chapel, lets assume the former.

                            You might check your air filter. Blockage would explain all your
                            symptoms. Besides, checking cheaps things first is always a good strategy.

                            I had plenty of experience with clogged fuel filters during the Racor
                            switcheroo. On a W27, the engine would develop full power, then
                            gradually lose RPM, and eventually die. Fifteen minutes later, it would
                            be willing to run again as fuel osmosed through the filter. That
                            doesn't sound at all like what you've got.

                            Water in the fuel is highly unlikely unless your Racor is saturated, and
                            then it would probably kill the engine after destroying the injector pump.

                            I also could be a dead cylinder due to low compression. A compression
                            check is also cheap and will probably yield good news, at least from the
                            wallet perspective.

                            --
                            Jim Starkey
                            Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
                            978 526-1376




                          • Peter Tollini
                            The engine is now under the tender care of Bunky and Spike, diesel wizards at Hartge Yacht Yard. I ll report back. It s 13 miles to the haul-out yard and
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 3, 2009
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                              The engine is now under the tender care of Bunky and Spike, diesel wizards at Hartge Yacht Yard.   I'll report back.  It's 13 miles to the haul-out yard and Old Man Winter isn't going to wait for me.
                              Pete
                              On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:30 PM, john kalinowski <sabre32sailor@...> wrote:
                               

                              Pete
                               
                              Whether or not you need them, get those injector rebuilt and report back along with turn around time and the mailing address   :>)  :>)
                               
                              Bonus points if they give you a clue what the model injector so we can check with out local guys if they recondition them.


                              --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:

                              From: Peter Tollini <pete@...>
                              Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Attention gearheads
                              To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 3:00 PM

                               
                              Guys -
                              Thanks for the responses.  It has a new fuel tank, and fresh racor (w/spacer), lift pump and injector pump filters.  It will rev to 2500 (3000 is governor tops) in neutral, still w/ lots of black smoke.  Starting is a lot of cranking, with tons of black smoke prior to eventually running.  My semi-educated guess is an injector or two not closing completely.  That would sure equal excess fuel. The good news is that Baltimore Diesel Service tests and rebuilds all types of injectors, including small marine diesels with a one-day turnaround for <$100 per injector. I got that tidbit from a local farmer. (They get real irritable waiting combine parts this time of year)  New injector from W is $475.  Makes Mercedes parts cheap by comparison!
                              I will check to make sure that Mickey & Minnie have not shacked up in the air inlet, though.
                              Pete

                              On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@comcast. net> wrote:
                               
                              Peter

                              The following describes general diagnostic indications from various colour exhausts:

                              "1. EXCESSIVE EXHAUST SMOKE 
                              Excessive diesel smoke is due to incomplete combustion, normally caused by faulty injection system or other engine troubles. A small amount of exhaust smoke is normal during initial start-up or rapid acceleration. 
                              Type of Smoke 
                              Abnormal Exhaust smoke may be black, white or blue. Each type of smoke indicates engine problems and these are discussed below: 

                              Black Smoke 

                              Excessive black smoke is caused by a rich air-fuel mixture. This may result form problems with the injection pump or infection timing, which may in turn be clue to a choked air cleaner, worn fuel injectors, adulterated diesel fuel or the engine itself. 

                              White Smoke 

                              White smoke occurs mainly during cold starts, when the fuel tends to condense into liquid and does not burn due to cold engine parts. The most common reason for white smoke are in-operative glow plugs low engine compression, a bad injector spray pattern, late injection timing or injection pump problems. 

                              Blue Smoke 

                              Excessive blue smoke indicates problems from low engine compression and/or worn piston rings, scored cylinder walls or leaking valve stem seals The blue smoke is caused by crankcase oil entering the combustion chamber and being emitted after partial combustion through the exhaust"

                              Len
                              s/v Walkabout
                              S38 MKII


                              On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Jim Starkey wrote:

                               
                              Peter Tollini wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > After a miserable summer and fall of non-sailing due to illnesses,
                              > weather and life in general, I found my W18 increasingly tough to
                              > start, with lots of cranking and black smoke. When I got out, it
                              > wouldn't rev over 1500 and was pushing out plumes of black smoke. I'm
                              > thinking dirty/leaky injectors. Any other thoughts or sugggestions?

                              Black smoke means one of two things: Either incomplete combustion or a
                              pope hasn't been elected. Assuming you're not sailing the Sistine
                              Chapel, lets assume the former.

                              You might check your air filter. Blockage would explain all your
                              symptoms. Besides, checking cheaps things first is always a good strategy.

                              I had plenty of experience with clogged fuel filters during the Racor
                              switcheroo. On a W27, the engine would develop full power, then
                              gradually lose RPM, and eventually die. Fifteen minutes later, it would
                              be willing to run again as fuel osmosed through the filter. That
                              doesn't sound at all like what you've got.

                              Water in the fuel is highly unlikely unless your Racor is saturated, and
                              then it would probably kill the engine after destroying the injector pump.

                              I also could be a dead cylinder due to low compression. A compression
                              check is also cheap and will probably yield good news, at least from the
                              wallet perspective.

                              --
                              Jim Starkey
                              Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
                              978 526-1376





                            • smofishlaw
                              I had pretty much the same problem with my W27A. After consulting with a few mechanics who had me ready to tear the fuel system down, I spoke with a friend
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 4, 2009
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                                I had pretty much the same problem with my W27A. After consulting with a few mechanics who had me ready to tear the fuel system down, I spoke with a friend who has a good general knowldeg of all things mechanical and electronic. He quickly deduced that my glow plugs were non-functional-of course I did not beleive him, since I could hear the solenoid making noise and the voltage dropped when I hit the switch. Turns out the solenoid was opoperating, it just wasn't energizing the glow plugs. Now it starts in two revolutions and no smoke.
                                The general rule is rule out all of the simple solutions first!
                                My Bosch fuel injection manual claims 90% of fuel injection parts are unnecessarily repalced due to poor dianostics-what we call and Easter egg hunt!
                              • Peter Tollini
                                Thanks. The glow plugs got checked first - all cherry red in a few seconds. Westerbekes love good glow or you are right, they are a bear to start. I still
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 4, 2009
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                                  Thanks. The glow plugs got checked first - all cherry red in a few seconds.  Westerbekes love good glow or you are right, they are a bear to start.  I still have issues after it starts, though.
                                  Pete
                                  On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 9:51 AM, smofishlaw <fishlaw@...> wrote:
                                   


                                  I had pretty much the same problem with my W27A. After consulting with a few mechanics who had me ready to tear the fuel system down, I spoke with a friend who has a good general knowldeg of all things mechanical and electronic. He quickly deduced that my glow plugs were non-functional-of course I did not beleive him, since I could hear the solenoid making noise and the voltage dropped when I hit the switch. Turns out the solenoid was opoperating, it just wasn't energizing the glow plugs. Now it starts in two revolutions and no smoke.
                                  The general rule is rule out all of the simple solutions first!
                                  My Bosch fuel injection manual claims 90% of fuel injection parts are unnecessarily repalced due to poor dianostics-what we call and Easter egg hunt!


                                • Dan Trainor
                                  Pete - hope all works out OK and it is a simple fix. Question: How do I determine if my glow plugs are cherry red? Where / How do I look? - Dan ... -- Dan
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 4, 2009
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                                    Pete - hope all works out OK and it is a simple fix.  Question:  How do I determine if my glow plugs are cherry red?  Where / How do I look? - Dan

                                    On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    Thanks. The glow plugs got checked first - all cherry red in a few seconds.  Westerbekes love good glow or you are right, they are a bear to start.  I still have issues after it starts, though.
                                    Pete


                                    On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 9:51 AM, smofishlaw <fishlaw@...> wrote:
                                     


                                    I had pretty much the same problem with my W27A. After consulting with a few mechanics who had me ready to tear the fuel system down, I spoke with a friend who has a good general knowldeg of all things mechanical and electronic. He quickly deduced that my glow plugs were non-functional-of course I did not beleive him, since I could hear the solenoid making noise and the voltage dropped when I hit the switch. Turns out the solenoid was opoperating, it just wasn't energizing the glow plugs. Now it starts in two revolutions and no smoke.
                                    The general rule is rule out all of the simple solutions first!
                                    My Bosch fuel injection manual claims 90% of fuel injection parts are unnecessarily repalced due to poor dianostics-what we call and Easter egg hunt!





                                    --
                                    Dan
                                  • Peter Tollini
                                    Dan - Disconnect the wire and remove the glow plug like a spark plug. When you connect a 12v source to the connector on top (with 12 ga or heavier wire) and
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 4, 2009
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                                      Dan -
                                      Disconnect the wire and remove the glow plug like a spark plug. When you connect a  12v source to the connector on top (with 12 ga or heavier wire) and ground the base, the tip should heat up like an electric stove element.
                                      Pete

                                      On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Dan Trainor <daniel.trainor@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      Pete - hope all works out OK and it is a simple fix.  Question:  How do I determine if my glow plugs are cherry red?  Where / How do I look? - Dan

                                      On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      Thanks. The glow plugs got checked first - all cherry red in a few seconds.  Westerbekes love good glow or you are right, they are a bear to start.  I still have issues after it starts, though.
                                      Pete


                                      On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 9:51 AM, smofishlaw <fishlaw@...> wrote:
                                       


                                      I had pretty much the same problem with my W27A. After consulting with a few mechanics who had me ready to tear the fuel system down, I spoke with a friend who has a good general knowldeg of all things mechanical and electronic. He quickly deduced that my glow plugs were non-functional-of course I did not beleive him, since I could hear the solenoid making noise and the voltage dropped when I hit the switch. Turns out the solenoid was opoperating, it just wasn't energizing the glow plugs. Now it starts in two revolutions and no smoke.
                                      The general rule is rule out all of the simple solutions first!
                                      My Bosch fuel injection manual claims 90% of fuel injection parts are unnecessarily repalced due to poor dianostics-what we call and Easter egg hunt!





                                      --
                                      Dan


                                    • Dan Trainor
                                      Cool - Thanks. ... -- Dan
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Dec 4, 2009
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                                        Cool - Thanks.

                                        On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        Dan -
                                        Disconnect the wire and remove the glow plug like a spark plug. When you connect a  12v source to the connector on top (with 12 ga or heavier wire) and ground the base, the tip should heat up like an electric stove element.
                                        Pete

                                        On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Dan Trainor <daniel.trainor@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        Pete - hope all works out OK and it is a simple fix.  Question:  How do I determine if my glow plugs are cherry red?  Where / How do I look? - Dan

                                        On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        Thanks. The glow plugs got checked first - all cherry red in a few seconds.  Westerbekes love good glow or you are right, they are a bear to start.  I still have issues after it starts, though.
                                        Pete


                                        On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 9:51 AM, smofishlaw <fishlaw@...> wrote:
                                         


                                        I had pretty much the same problem with my W27A. After consulting with a few mechanics who had me ready to tear the fuel system down, I spoke with a friend who has a good general knowldeg of all things mechanical and electronic. He quickly deduced that my glow plugs were non-functional-of course I did not beleive him, since I could hear the solenoid making noise and the voltage dropped when I hit the switch. Turns out the solenoid was opoperating, it just wasn't energizing the glow plugs. Now it starts in two revolutions and no smoke.
                                        The general rule is rule out all of the simple solutions first!
                                        My Bosch fuel injection manual claims 90% of fuel injection parts are unnecessarily repalced due to poor dianostics-what we call and Easter egg hunt!





                                        --
                                        Dan





                                        --
                                        Dan
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