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RE: [SabreSailboat] Survey

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  • Jim Schofield
    Here s a safe place to start...Many will be familiar with Sabres http://www.boatus.com/insurance/ncbsur.asp To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com From:
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 3, 2009
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      Here's a safe place to start...Many will be familiar with Sabres
      http://www.boatus.com/insurance/ncbsur.asp 
       

      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
      From: dvzee1@...
      Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 17:38:02 +0000
      Subject: [SabreSailboat] Survey

       
      Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar with Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.


    • josrulz_2001
      We didn t buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a fatal flaw , so
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 3, 2009
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        We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't know how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.

        He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's listed on the BoatUS link.

        -Jim

        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar with Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
        >
      • Al Lorman
        David Manning is a superb surveyor and very familiar with Sabres. Al Lorman From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 3, 2009
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          David Manning is a superb surveyor and very familiar with Sabres.

           

          Al Lorman

           

          From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of josrulz_2001
          Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:36 PM
          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

           

           

          We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't know how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.

          He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's listed on the BoatUS link.

          -Jim

          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:

          >
          > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar with
          Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
          >

        • Dennis Zanone
          *Thank You, this looks helpful. Dennis *
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 3, 2009
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            Thank You, this looks helpful.

            Dennis

            On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Jim Schofield <jschofield1@...> wrote:
             

            Here's a safe place to start...Many will be familiar with Sabres
            http://www.boatus.com/insurance/ncbsur.asp 
             


            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
            From: dvzee1@...
            Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 17:38:02 +0000
            Subject: [SabreSailboat] Survey


             
            Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar with Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.



          • Dennis Zanone
            Thanks for the recommendation Dennis
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 3, 2009
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              Thanks for the recommendation

              Dennis

              On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@...> wrote:
               

              We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't know how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.

              He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's listed on the BoatUS link.

              -Jim



              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar with Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
              >


            • John Lark
              Dennis, They didn t do my Sabre, and don t know how familiar they are with them, but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 3, 2009
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                Dennis,
                They didn't do my Sabre, and don't know how familiar they are with them,
                but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
                Hartoff Marine Surveyors and was very pleased, she did an excellent job,
                went up the mast and spend all day on the boat. Hartoff is at (410)
                263-3609. Most surveyors don't do a real thorough review of the engine,
                I'd suggest you call Chris Oliver (410) 643-1545. He is a Marine diesel
                surveyor, been around a long time and is one of the most knowledgeable
                people you will ever meet regarding marine engines. He does a very
                thorough job and for what you get is very inexpensive. Worth his weight
                (and he's a big guy) in gold if want to be comfortable with the engine.

                John Lark
                s/v Rejoice, Sabre 38 MkII


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Dennis Zanone" <dvzee1@...>
                To: <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey


                Thanks for the recommendation

                Dennis

                On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@...>
                wrote:

                >
                >
                > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat
                > search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a
                > "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't
                know
                > how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                >
                > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's
                listed
                > on the BoatUS link.
                >
                > -Jim
                >
                >
                > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                <Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar
                with
                > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
              • Dennis Zanone
                Thanks for your help. Dennis
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 3, 2009
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                  Thanks for your help.

                  Dennis

                  On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 7:00 PM, John Lark <johnlark@...> wrote:
                   

                  Dennis,
                  They didn't do my Sabre, and don't know how familiar they are with them,
                  but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
                  Hartoff Marine Surveyors and was very pleased, she did an excellent job,
                  went up the mast and spend all day on the boat. Hartoff is at (410)
                  263-3609. Most surveyors don't do a real thorough review of the engine,
                  I'd suggest you call Chris Oliver (410) 643-1545. He is a Marine diesel
                  surveyor, been around a long time and is one of the most knowledgeable
                  people you will ever meet regarding marine engines. He does a very
                  thorough job and for what you get is very inexpensive. Worth his weight
                  (and he's a big guy) in gold if want to be comfortable with the engine.

                  John Lark
                  s/v Rejoice, Sabre 38 MkII



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Dennis Zanone" <dvzee1@...>
                  To: <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:22 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                  Thanks for the recommendation

                  Dennis

                  On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@...>
                  wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat
                  > search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a
                  > "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't
                  know
                  > how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                  >
                  > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                  > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's
                  listed
                  > on the BoatUS link.
                  >
                  > -Jim
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                  <Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>,

                  > "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar
                  with
                  > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                • Harry
                  Gale didn t do my boat, but Hartoff did. I m a VERY unhappy client. * No trip up the mast. Granted, the boat was on the hard, and perhaps they wouldn t do
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 3, 2009
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                    Gale didn't do my boat, but Hartoff did.  I'm a VERY unhappy client.

                    *  No trip up the mast.  Granted, the boat was on the hard, and perhaps they wouldn't do it on the hard (not sure I would either!), but there was NO mention of "oh, we would have" or a discount for not.  I don't feel like it was in their routine.
                    *  On the boat for about 2 hours, maybe more like 90 minutes.
                    *  The propeller shaft fell out of the coupling (and damn near out of the boat!) on my delivery home.
                    *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" "shackles in the rigging."  When I read his report, I couldn't find what he was talking about, and decided he was referring to the main halyard shackle (The wire/rope halyard was made down to a stanchion base, and I have to assume he thought it was a shroud)   This conclusion was further enhanced by his statement in the report that there was only one halyard on the boat (there was a main and jib halyard).  I emailed him asking for clarification, never got a response.
                    *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the steaming light was out.  I checked it the day before, it was working.  I checked it an hour after he left, it was working.  I have checked it several times since, it is still working.  Maybe daylight was a problem?
                    *  I have since removed the little trim pieces on the chainplate knees for inspection.  The knees are black -- not rotten, I don't think (I hope!), but it sure would have been nice if a surveyor had pointed that out to me! (And perhaps he might have a more professional opinion than my "I don't think they are rotten").
                    *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the rudder should be inspected at every future haul-out for water intrusion.  What am I supposed to do with THAT finding?  I told the insurance company "sure, I'll do that" but it is hardly a deficiency or something that I can "correct" and put a date by the item.
                    *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" circular cotter keys in the life lines.  They come that way from the store even today!
                    *  I showed up about an hour after he did, so I might have missed what he did, but I found no evidence on any of the through hulls of scraping them to see the condition of the bronze.
                    *  The biggest things he did identify (and make into underwriting issues) were "changing codes" kind of things -- no grab bar in front of the stove, no fiberglass battery box enclosure, no breakers on the battery cables, no hold-opens on the cockpit lockers, diesel fill/vent hoses that don't meet current code, that kind of thing.  Judging by the pictures I've seen here, as well as boats for sale on Yachtworld, there are a very large number of people out there with these hits.  I'm lucky he didn't make me remove my CNG tank (it's not in a dedicated locker)!
                    Bottom line, I don't think I got my $800 or so's worth.  Not counting travel, that was nearly $400 an hour!

                    I don't know if others are any better, but I'd sure like to see!

                    Harry


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: John Lark
                    Sent: Thu 03 Sep 2009 19:00
                    Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                     

                    Dennis,
                    They didn't do my Sabre, and don't know how familiar they are with them,
                    but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
                    Hartoff Marine Surveyors and was very pleased, she did an excellent job,
                    went up the mast and spend all day on the boat. Hartoff is at (410)
                    263-3609. Most surveyors don't do a real thorough review of the engine,
                    I'd suggest you call Chris Oliver (410) 643-1545. He is a Marine diesel
                    surveyor, been around a long time and is one of the most knowledgeable
                    people you will ever meet regarding marine engines. He does a very
                    thorough job and for what you get is very inexpensive. Worth his weight
                    (and he's a big guy) in gold if want to be comfortable with the engine.

                    John Lark
                    s/v Rejoice, Sabre 38 MkII

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Dennis Zanone" <dvzee1@gmail. com>
                    To: <Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com>
                    Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:22 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                    Thanks for the recommendation

                    Dennis

                    On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@ yahoo.com>
                    wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat
                    > search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a
                    > "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't
                    know
                    > how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                    >
                    > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                    > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's
                    listed
                    > on the BoatUS link.
                    >
                    > -Jim
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                    <Sabresailboat% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                    > "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar
                    with
                    > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                  • Charles Sidwa
                    More then the engines on these boats I worry about the mast step, cabin sole and the chain plates/bulkheads. Not that a reliable engine isn t a nice thing.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 3, 2009
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                      More then the engines on these boats I worry about the mast step, cabin sole and the chain plates/bulkheads.  Not that a reliable engine isn't a nice thing.
                       
                      Charlie
                      Chinook, 34MKII
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: John Lark
                      Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:00 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                       

                      Dennis,
                      They didn't do my Sabre, and don't know how familiar they are with them,
                      but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
                      Hartoff Marine Surveyors and was very pleased, she did an excellent job,
                      went up the mast and spend all day on the boat. Hartoff is at (410)
                      263-3609. Most surveyors don't do a real thorough review of the engine,
                      I'd suggest you call Chris Oliver (410) 643-1545. He is a Marine diesel
                      surveyor, been around a long time and is one of the most knowledgeable
                      people you will ever meet regarding marine engines. He does a very
                      thorough job and for what you get is very inexpensive. Worth his weight
                      (and he's a big guy) in gold if want to be comfortable with the engine.

                      John Lark
                      s/v Rejoice, Sabre 38 MkII

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Dennis Zanone" <dvzee1@gmail. com>
                      To: <Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com>
                      Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:22 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                      Thanks for the recommendation

                      Dennis

                      On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@ yahoo.com>
                      wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat
                      > search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a
                      > "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't
                      know
                      > how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                      >
                      > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                      > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's
                      listed
                      > on the BoatUS link.
                      >
                      > -Jim
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                      <Sabresailboat% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                      > "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar
                      with
                      > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                    • Dave Lochner
                      Add to the list of major worries, the keel bolts. The Sabre 34 I had last year has a corroded keel bolt. By comparison, when I had it S34 MK 1 surveyed last
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 3, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Add to the list of major worries, the keel bolts. The Sabre 34 I had last year has a corroded keel bolt. 

                        By comparison, when I had it S34 MK 1 surveyed last fall, it took about 6 hours @ $100 an hour. It might have gone a bit faster if the weather had been more cooperative, it was cold with rain showers. 

                        Dave

                        On Sep 3, 2009, at 9:30 PM, Charles Sidwa wrote:


                        More then the engines on these boats I worry about the mast step, cabin sole and the chain plates/bulkheads.  Not that a reliable engine isn't a nice thing.
                         
                        Charlie
                        Chinook, 34MKII
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: John Lark
                        Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:00 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                         

                        Dennis,
                        They didn't do my Sabre, and don't know how familiar they are with them,
                        but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
                        Hartoff Marine Surveyors and was very pleased, she did an excellent job,
                        went up the mast and spend all day on the boat. Hartoff is at (410)
                        263-3609. Most surveyors don't do a real thorough review of the engine,
                        I'd suggest you call Chris Oliver (410) 643-1545. He is a Marine diesel
                        surveyor, been around a long time and is one of the most knowledgeable
                        people you will ever meet regarding marine engines. He does a very
                        thorough job and for what you get is very inexpensive. Worth his weight
                        (and he's a big guy) in gold if want to be comfortable with the engine.

                        John Lark
                        s/v Rejoice, Sabre 38 MkII

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Dennis Zanone" <dvzee1@gmail. com>
                        To: <Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com>
                        Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:22 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                        Thanks for the recommendation

                        Dennis

                        On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@ yahoo.com>
                        wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat
                        > search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a
                        > "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't
                        know
                        > how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                        >
                        > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                        > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's
                        listed
                        > on the BoatUS link.
                        >
                        > -Jim
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                        <Sabresailboat% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                        > "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar
                        with
                        > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                      • Barry Dwyer
                        I would agree about staying away from Hartoff. He came across very nonchalant about major issues. _____ From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 3, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment

                          I would agree about staying away from Hartoff.  He came across very nonchalant about major issues. 

                           


                          From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Harry
                          Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 8:54 PM
                          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                           

                           

                          Gale didn't do my boat, but Hartoff did.  I'm a VERY unhappy client.

                          *  No trip up the mast.  Granted, the boat was on the hard, and perhaps they wouldn't do it on the hard (not sure I would either!), but there was NO mention of "oh, we would have" or a discount for not.  I don't feel like it was in their routine.
                          *  On the boat for about 2 hours, maybe more like 90 minutes.
                          *  The propeller shaft fell out of the coupling (and damn near out of the boat!) on my delivery home.
                          *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" "shackles in the rigging."  When I read his report, I couldn't find what he was talking about, and decided he was referring to the main halyard shackle (The wire/rope halyard was made down to a stanchion base, and I have to assume he thought it was a shroud)   This conclusion was further enhanced by his statement in the report that there was only one halyard on the boat (there was a main and jib halyard).  I emailed him asking for clarification, never got a response.
                          *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the steaming light was out.  I checked it the day before, it was working.  I checked it an hour after he left, it was working.  I have checked it several times since, it is still working.  Maybe daylight was a problem?
                          *  I have since removed the little trim pieces on the chainplate knees for inspection.  The knees are black -- not rotten, I don't think (I hope!), but it sure would have been nice if a surveyor had pointed that out to me! (And perhaps he might have a more professional opinion than my "I don't think they are rotten").
                          *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the rudder should be inspected at every future haul-out for water intrusion.  What am I supposed to do with THAT finding?  I told the insurance company "sure, I'll do that" but it is hardly a deficiency or something that I can "correct" and put a date by the item.
                          *  Cited as an "unde rwriting deficiency" circular cotter keys in the life lines.  They come that way from the store even today!
                          *  I showed up about an hour after he did, so I might have missed what he did, but I found no evidence on any of the through hulls of scraping them to see the condition of the bronze.
                          *  The biggest things he did identify (and make into underwriting issues) were "changing codes" kind of things -- no grab bar in front of the stove, no fiberglass battery box enclosure, no breakers on the battery cables, no hold-opens on the cockpit lockers, diesel fill/vent hoses that don't meet current code, that kind of thing.  Judging by the pictures I've seen here, as well as boats for sale on Yachtworld, there are a very large number of people out there with these hits.  I'm lucky he didn't make me remove my CNG tank (it's not in a dedicated locker)!
                          Bottom line, I don't think I got my $800 or so's worth.  Not counting travel, that was nearly $400 an hour!

                          I don't know if others are any better, but I'd sure like to see!

                          Harry

                          ----- Original Message -----

                          From: John Lark

                          Sen t: Thu 03 Sep 2009 19:00

                          Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                           

                           

                          Dennis,
                          They didn't do my Sabre, and don't know how familiar they are with them,
                          but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
                          Hartoff Marine Surveyors and was very pleased, she did an excellent job,
                          went up the mast and spend all day on the boat. Hartoff is at (410)
                          263-3609. Most surveyors don't do a real thorough review of the engine,
                          I'd suggest you call Chris Oliver (410) 643-1545. He is a Marine diesel
                          surveyor, been around a long time and is one of the most knowledgeable
                          people you will ever meet regarding marine engines. He does a very
                          thorough job and for what you get is very inexpensive. Worth his weight
                          (and he's a big guy) in gold if want to be comfortable with the engine.

                          John Lark
                          s/v Rejoice, Sabre 38 MkII

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Dennis Zanone" <dvzee1@gmail. com>
                          To: <Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com>
                          Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:22 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                          Thanks for the recommendation

                          Dennis

                          On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@ yahoo.com>
                          wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland . However, during our boat
                          > search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a
                          > "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't
                          know
                          > how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                          >
                          > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                          > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's
                          listed
                          > on the BoatUS link.
                          >
                          > -Jim
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                          <Sabresailboat% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                          > "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar
                          with
                          > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >

                        • yaf001
                          I don t know that particular fellow but one definitely wants a chalant surveyor. Y. _____ From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 4, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I don't know that particular fellow but one definitely wants a chalant surveyor.
                            Y.
                             


                            From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Dwyer
                            Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 22:17
                            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                             

                            I would agree about staying away from Hartoff.  He came across very nonchalant about major issues. 


                            From: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Harry
                            Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 8:54 PM
                            To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                             

                            Gale didn't do my boat, but Hartoff did.  I'm a VERY unhappy client.

                            *  No trip up the mast.  Granted, the boat was on the hard, and perhaps they wouldn't do it on the hard (not sure I would either!), but there was NO mention of "oh, we would have" or a discount for not.  I don't feel like it was in their routine.
                            *  On the boat for about 2 hours, maybe more like 90 minutes.
                            *  The propeller shaft fell out of the coupling (and damn near out of the boat!) on my delivery home.
                            *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" "shackles in the rigging."  When I read his report, I couldn't find what he was talking about, and decided he was referring to the main halyard shackle (The wire/rope halyard was made down to a stanchion base, and I have to assume he thought it was a shroud)   This conclusion was further enhanced by his statement in the report that there was only one halyard on the boat (there was a main and jib halyard).  I emailed him asking for clarification, never got a response.
                            *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the steaming light was out.  I checked it the day before, it was working.  I checked it an hour after he left, it was working.  I have checked it several times since, it is still working.  Maybe daylight was a problem?
                            *  I have since removed the little trim pieces on the chainplate knees for inspection.  The knees are black -- not rotten, I don't think (I hope!), but it sure would have been nice if a surveyor had pointed that out to me! (And perhaps he might have a more professional opinion than my "I don't think they are rotten").
                            *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the rudder should be inspected at every future haul-out for water intrusion.  What am I supposed to do with THAT finding?  I told the insurance company "sure, I'll do that" but it is hardly a deficiency or something that I can "correct" and put a date by the item.
                            *  Cited as an "unde rwriting deficiency" circular cotter keys in the life lines.  They come that way from the store even today!
                            *  I showed up about an hour after he did, so I might have missed what he did, but I found no evidence on any of the through hulls of scraping them to see the condition of the bronze.
                            *  The biggest things he did identify (and make into underwriting issues) were "changing codes" kind of things -- no grab bar in front of the stove, no fiberglass battery box enclosure, no breakers on the battery cables, no hold-opens on the cockpit lockers, diesel fill/vent hoses that don't meet current code, that kind of thing.  Judging by the pictures I've seen here, as well as boats for sale on Yachtworld, there are a very large number of people out there with these hits.  I'm lucky he didn't make me remove my CNG tank (it's not in a dedicated locker)!
                            Bottom line, I don't think I got my $800 or so's worth.  Not counting travel, that was nearly $400 an hour!

                            I don't know if others are any better, but I'd sure like to see!

                            Harry

                            ----- Original Message -----

                            From: John Lark

                            Sen t: Thu 03 Sep 2009 19:00

                            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                             

                            Dennis,
                            They didn't do my Sabre, and don't know how familiar they are with them,
                            but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
                            Hartoff Marine Surveyors and was very pleased, she did an excellent job,
                            went up the mast and spend all day on the boat. Hartoff is at (410)
                            263-3609. Most surveyors don't do a real thorough review of the engine,
                            I'd suggest you call Chris Oliver (410) 643-1545. He is a Marine diesel
                            surveyor, been around a long time and is one of the most knowledgeable
                            people you will ever meet regarding marine engines. He does a very
                            thorough job and for what you get is very inexpensive. Worth his weight
                            (and he's a big guy) in gold if want to be comfortable with the engine.

                            John Lark
                            s/v Rejoice, Sabre 38 MkII

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Dennis Zanone" <dvzee1@gmail. com>
                            To: <Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com>
                            Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:22 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                            Thanks for the recommendation

                            Dennis

                            On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@ yahoo.com>
                            wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland . However, during our boat
                            > search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a
                            > "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't
                            know
                            > how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                            >
                            > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                            > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's
                            listed
                            > on the BoatUS link.
                            >
                            > -Jim
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                            <Sabresailboat% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                            > "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar
                            with
                            > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                          • bennettkaufman99
                            ... If I may offer another recomendation: Susan Canfield in Annapolis (410) 626-8545 She surveyed my S36, albeit a number of years ago. She spent two days
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 4, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <HarryK@...> wrote:

                              >>Gale didn't do my boat, but Hartoff did. I'm a VERY unhappy client.

                              If I may offer another recomendation:

                              Susan Canfield in Annapolis (410) 626-8545

                              She surveyed my S36, albeit a number of years ago. She spent two days doing the boat (altho' she almost required me to be present during the survey, I could participate on only one day, due to work commitments). Up front, she indicated that I should get a separate engine survey (and told me to have the mechanic also check the SeaFrost refrigeration) and a separate rigging survey, which I did.

                              Findings were designated as normal service, upgrade recommended, or to comply with standards. No major boat issues (except see below) were found; almost everything to be done was user-doable.

                              For example, she recommended that the covers over the shroud turnbuckles installed by the PO be removed, to facilitate inspection and allow better access for fresh-water rinsing, that I check keel-bolt torques, etc.

                              Susan even made me get into the large port-side cockpit locket, and both aft lazarettes (and I am NOT a small person); when I asked why, she said, "there are important things down there (i.e., throughhulls/seacocks, rudder bearings, stuffing boxes, etc.) which you may need to fix while on the water, and if you can't get down into the lockers to fix them, you shouldn't buy this boat." BTW, I DID fit!

                              I ended up with a 23-page report, complete with (color) photos of the boat and of some of the findings.

                              Engine survey (more on that below) did indicate some problems, and the refrigeration was non-functional.

                              Best recommendation for Susan is the following: When I told the first broker with whom I was working that I wanted Susan to survey the first boat I put a contract on, he got very agitated. "No," sez he, "you don't want HER to survey the boat." When I asked why, he said, "She finds too many things wrong with the boat." Seems to me that's GOOD for the buyer, maybe not so good for the seller/broker. BTW, I dumped him and got another broker, who not only found me my current boat, but enthusiastically endorsed Susan.

                              As for engine survey, I would say that it depends on the make of the engine. My S36 has a Westerbeke 27, and the consensus was that John Vosbury, of Vosbury Marine at Whitehall Yacht Yard ([310] 757-3844), is the best Westerbeke guy around. He did the survey with the boat in the water, and (1) determined that the refrigeration was non-functional, and (2) found a subtle problem (bent valve stem) with the engine, which he carefully documented, and provided in a report to me. These became negotiation points with the seller.

                              BTW, rigging survey (done when boat was in the water for engine survey) was OK.

                              My, I do get long-winded (long-emailed?)

                              ben kaufman, CARACOL (S36 #52)
                            • Harry
                              Rats. I know Susan, and attended an all-day seminar she put on for how to pre-survey your boat. Her name came up on the list of possible surveyors. I
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 4, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                 Rats.  I  know Susan, and attended an all-day seminar she put on for "how to pre-survey your boat."  Her name came up on the list of possible surveyors.  I have no idea why I didn't go with her, although perhaps what happened (it's been a few months, I forget...) is that I had her high on my list but wanted to call around a bit first.  But, what unfortunately happened is what started out (in MY mind, at least) as a "telephone interview" with Hartoff before surveyor became a 2 minute telephone call with a date.  Hartoff was the only surveyor that I actually spoke to.  I HATE choosing professionals, especially ones you rarely deal with (lawyers, real estate agents, yacht brokers, etc).

                                Wish I'd just gone with Susan.

                                Although, David Manning is probably I guy I spent a  lot of time with back in college (fellow USNA grad, still lives in the area).  If' he's the same guy and I knew he was a surveyor, I might have gone with him as well.

                                Harry

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Fri 04 Sep 2009 06:35
                                Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                                 

                                --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com, "Harry" <HarryK@...> wrote:

                                >>Gale didn't do my boat, but Hartoff did. I'm a VERY unhappy client.

                                If I may offer another recomendation:

                                Susan Canfield in Annapolis (410) 626-8545

                                She surveyed my S36, albeit a number of years ago. She spent two days doing the boat (altho' she almost required me to be present during the survey, I could participate on only one day, due to work commitments) . Up front, she indicated that I should get a separate engine survey (and told me to have the mechanic also check the SeaFrost refrigeration) and a separate rigging survey, which I did.

                                Findings were designated as normal service, upgrade recommended, or to comply with standards. No major boat issues (except see below) were found; almost everything to be done was user-doable.

                                For example, she recommended that the covers over the shroud turnbuckles installed by the PO be removed, to facilitate inspection and allow better access for fresh-water rinsing, that I check keel-bolt torques, etc.

                                Susan even made me get into the large port-side cockpit locket, and both aft lazarettes (and I am NOT a small person); when I asked why, she said, "there are important things down there (i.e., throughhulls/ seacocks, rudder bearings, stuffing boxes, etc.) which you may need to fix while on the water, and if you can't get down into the lockers to fix them, you shouldn't buy this boat." BTW, I DID fit!

                                I ended up with a 23-page report, complete with (color) photos of the boat and of some of the findings.

                                Engine survey (more on that below) did indicate some problems, and the refrigeration was non-functional.

                                Best recommendation for Susan is the following: When I told the first broker with whom I was working that I wanted Susan to survey the first boat I put a contract on, he got very agitated. "No," sez he, "you don't want HER to survey the boat." When I asked why, he said, "She finds too many things wrong with the boat." Seems to me that's GOOD for the buyer, maybe not so good for the seller/broker. BTW, I dumped him and got another broker, who not only found me my current boat, but enthusiastically endorsed Susan.

                                As for engine survey, I would say that it depends on the make of the engine. My S36 has a Westerbeke 27, and the consensus was that John Vosbury, of Vosbury Marine at Whitehall Yacht Yard ([310] 757-3844), is the best Westerbeke guy around. He did the survey with the boat in the water, and (1) determined that the refrigeration was non-functional, and (2) found a subtle problem (bent valve stem) with the engine, which he carefully documented, and provided in a report to me. These became negotiation points with the seller.

                                BTW, rigging survey (done when boat was in the water for engine survey) was OK.

                                My, I do get long-winded (long-emailed? )

                                ben kaufman, CARACOL (S36 #52)

                              • The Aviation Buff
                                Perhaps I can help with your concern. I have used Hartoff for three, (nay four) surveys.  I find their work most excellent. Detail, documentation and
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 4, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Perhaps I can help with your concern.
                                   
                                  I have used Hartoff for three, (nay four) surveys.  I find their work most excellent. Detail, documentation and thoroughness is most highly professional in it's scope.
                                   
                                  I recommend them with enthusiasm and in particular, Gail.
                                   
                                  I would take the first 'verbal' from Gail and then determine if a separate engine survey is required. 
                                   
                                  Wise choice, and after all 'luck' will work for a man if his courage does not fail.
                                   
                                  Best wishes Harry.
                                   
                                  Foster Adams
                                  Former master "Serenity" S28


                                  From: Harry <HarryK@...>
                                  To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, September 4, 2009 6:47:50 AM
                                  Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                                   

                                   Rats.  I  know Susan, and attended an all-day seminar she put on for "how to pre-survey your boat."  Her name came up on the list of possible surveyors.  I have no idea why I didn't go with her, although perhaps what happened (it's been a few months, I forget...) is that I had her high on my list but wanted to call around a bit first.  But, what unfortunately happened is what started out (in MY mind, at least) as a "telephone interview" with Hartoff before surveyor became a 2 minute telephone call with a date.  Hartoff was the only surveyor that I actually spoke to.  I HATE choosing professionals, especially ones you rarely deal with (lawyers, real estate agents, yacht brokers, etc).

                                  Wish I'd just gone with Susan.

                                  Although, David Manning is probably I guy I spent a  lot of time with back in college (fellow USNA grad, still lives in the area).  If' he's the same guy and I knew he was a surveyor, I might have gone with him as well.

                                  Harry

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Fri 04 Sep 2009 06:35
                                  Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                                   

                                  --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com, "Harry" <HarryK@...> wrote:

                                  >>Gale didn't do my boat, but Hartoff did. I'm a VERY unhappy client.

                                  If I may offer another recomendation:

                                  Susan Canfield in Annapolis (410) 626-8545

                                  She surveyed my S36, albeit a number of years ago. She spent two days doing the boat (altho' she almost required me to be present during the survey, I could participate on only one day, due to work commitments) . Up front, she indicated that I should get a separate engine survey (and told me to have the mechanic also check the SeaFrost refrigeration) and a separate rigging survey, which I did.

                                  Findings were designated as normal service, upgrade recommended, or to comply with standards. No major boat issues (except see below) were found; almost everything to be done was user-doable.

                                  For example, she recommended that the covers over the shroud turnbuckles installed by the PO be removed, to facilitate inspection and allow better access for fresh-water rinsing, that I check keel-bolt torques, etc.

                                  Susan even made me get into the large port-side cockpit locket, and both aft lazarettes (and I am NOT a small person); when I asked why, she said, "there are important things down there (i.e., throughhulls/ seacocks, rudder bearings, stuffing boxes, etc.) which you may need to fix while on the water, and if you can't get down into the lockers to fix them, you shouldn't buy this boat." BTW, I DID fit!

                                  I ended up with a 23-page report, complete with (color) photos of the boat and of some of the findings.

                                  Engine survey (more on that below) did indicate some problems, and the refrigeration was non-functional.

                                  Best recommendation for Susan is the following: When I told the first broker with whom I was working that I wanted Susan to survey the first boat I put a contract on, he got very agitated. "No," sez he, "you don't want HER to survey the boat." When I asked why, he said, "She finds too many things wrong with the boat." Seems to me that's GOOD for the buyer, maybe not so good for the seller/broker. BTW, I dumped him and got another broker, who not only found me my current boat, but enthusiastically endorsed Susan.

                                  As for engine survey, I would say that it depends on the make of the engine. My S36 has a Westerbeke 27, and the consensus was that John Vosbury, of Vosbury Marine at Whitehall Yacht Yard ([310] 757-3844), is the best Westerbeke guy around. He did the survey with the boat in the water, and (1) determined that the refrigeration was non-functional, and (2) found a subtle problem (bent valve stem) with the engine, which he carefully documented, and provided in a report to me. These became negotiation points with the seller.

                                  BTW, rigging survey (done when boat was in the water for engine survey) was OK.

                                  My, I do get long-winded (long-emailed? )

                                  ben kaufman, CARACOL (S36 #52)


                                • Dennis Zanone
                                  Harry, Thanks for sharing your experience. I am also now aware of what to include in my discussion with the potential surveyor. Dennis Zanone
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Sep 4, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Harry,

                                    Thanks for sharing your experience. I am also now aware of what to include in my discussion with the potential surveyor.

                                    Dennis Zanone

                                    On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Harry <HarryK@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    Gale didn't do my boat, but Hartoff did.  I'm a VERY unhappy client.

                                    *  No trip up the mast.  Granted, the boat was on the hard, and perhaps they wouldn't do it on the hard (not sure I would either!), but there was NO mention of "oh, we would have" or a discount for not.  I don't feel like it was in their routine.
                                    *  On the boat for about 2 hours, maybe more like 90 minutes.
                                    *  The propeller shaft fell out of the coupling (and damn near out of the boat!) on my delivery home.
                                    *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" "shackles in the rigging."  When I read his report, I couldn't find what he was talking about, and decided he was referring to the main halyard shackle (The wire/rope halyard was made down to a stanchion base, and I have to assume he thought it was a shroud)   This conclusion was further enhanced by his statement in the report that there was only one halyard on the boat (there was a main and jib halyard).  I emailed him asking for clarification, never got a response.
                                    *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the steaming light was out.  I checked it the day before, it was working.  I checked it an hour after he left, it was working.  I have checked it several times since, it is still working.  Maybe daylight was a problem?
                                    *  I have since removed the little trim pieces on the chainplate knees for inspection.  The knees are black -- not rotten, I don't think (I hope!), but it sure would have been nice if a surveyor had pointed that out to me! (And perhaps he might have a more professional opinion than my "I don't think they are rotten").
                                    *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the rudder should be inspected at every future haul-out for water intrusion.  What am I supposed to do with THAT finding?  I told the insurance company "sure, I'll do that" but it is hardly a deficiency or something that I can "correct" and put a date by the item.
                                    *  Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" circular cotter keys in the life lines.  They come that way from the store even today!
                                    *  I showed up about an hour after he did, so I might have missed what he did, but I found no evidence on any of the through hulls of scraping them to see the condition of the bronze.
                                    *  The biggest things he did identify (and make into underwriting issues) were "changing codes" kind of things -- no grab bar in front of the stove, no fiberglass battery box enclosure, no breakers on the battery cables, no hold-opens on the cockpit lockers, diesel fill/vent hoses that don't meet current code, that kind of thing.  Judging by the pictures I've seen here, as well as boats for sale on Yachtworld, there are a very large number of people out there with these hits.  I'm lucky he didn't make me remove my CNG tank (it's not in a dedicated locker)!
                                    Bottom line, I don't think I got my $800 or so's worth.  Not counting travel, that was nearly $400 an hour!

                                    I don't know if others are any better, but I'd sure like to see!

                                    Harry


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: John Lark
                                    Sent: Thu 03 Sep 2009 19:00
                                    Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                                     

                                    Dennis,
                                    They didn't do my Sabre, and don't know how familiar they are with them,
                                    but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
                                    Hartoff Marine Surveyors and was very pleased, she did an excellent job,
                                    went up the mast and spend all day on the boat. Hartoff is at (410)
                                    263-3609. Most surveyors don't do a real thorough review of the engine,
                                    I'd suggest you call Chris Oliver (410) 643-1545. He is a Marine diesel
                                    surveyor, been around a long time and is one of the most knowledgeable
                                    people you will ever meet regarding marine engines. He does a very
                                    thorough job and for what you get is very inexpensive. Worth his weight
                                    (and he's a big guy) in gold if want to be comfortable with the engine.

                                    John Lark
                                    s/v Rejoice, Sabre 38 MkII

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Dennis Zanone" <dvzee1@...>
                                    To: <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:22 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                                    Thanks for the recommendation

                                    Dennis

                                    On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@...>
                                    wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat
                                    > search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a
                                    > "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't
                                    know
                                    > how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                                    >
                                    > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                                    > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's
                                    listed
                                    > on the BoatUS link.
                                    >
                                    > -Jim
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                    <Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                    > "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar
                                    with
                                    > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                  • Dennis Zanone
                                    Thanks Dave, Dennis
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Sep 4, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Thanks Dave,

                                      Dennis

                                      On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:14 PM, Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      Add to the list of major worries, the keel bolts. The Sabre 34 I had last year has a corroded keel bolt. 


                                      By comparison, when I had it S34 MK 1 surveyed last fall, it took about 6 hours @ $100 an hour. It might have gone a bit faster if the weather had been more cooperative, it was cold with rain showers. 

                                      Dave

                                      On Sep 3, 2009, at 9:30 PM, Charles Sidwa wrote:


                                      More then the engines on these boats I worry about the mast step, cabin sole and the chain plates/bulkheads.  Not that a reliable engine isn't a nice thing.
                                       
                                      Charlie
                                      Chinook, 34MKII
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: John Lark
                                      Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:00 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                                       

                                      Dennis,
                                      They didn't do my Sabre, and don't know how familiar they are with them,
                                      but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
                                      Hartoff Marine Surveyors and was very pleased, she did an excellent job,
                                      went up the mast and spend all day on the boat. Hartoff is at (410)
                                      263-3609. Most surveyors don't do a real thorough review of the engine,
                                      I'd suggest you call Chris Oliver (410) 643-1545. He is a Marine diesel
                                      surveyor, been around a long time and is one of the most knowledgeable
                                      people you will ever meet regarding marine engines. He does a very
                                      thorough job and for what you get is very inexpensive. Worth his weight
                                      (and he's a big guy) in gold if want to be comfortable with the engine.

                                      John Lark
                                      s/v Rejoice, Sabre 38 MkII

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Dennis Zanone" <dvzee1@...>
                                      To: <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:22 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                                      Thanks for the recommendation

                                      Dennis

                                      On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@...>
                                      wrote:

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat
                                      > search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a
                                      > "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't
                                      know
                                      > how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                                      >
                                      > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                                      > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's
                                      listed
                                      > on the BoatUS link.
                                      >
                                      > -Jim
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                      <Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      > "zanoned" <dvzee1@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar
                                      with
                                      > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >




                                    • sabre30_36
                                      I believe Dave Manning worked for Hartge s when they were a Sabre dealer. He is definitely very familiar with Sabres. I have found him to be very helpful -
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Sep 15, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I believe Dave Manning worked for Hartge's when they were a Sabre dealer. He is definitely very familiar with Sabres. I have found him to be very helpful - willing to explain everything he finds and give practical advice. He also is very careful to explain items that may a result of code changes and provide his opinion of the value of the new requirements.

                                        Eric
                                        Sabre 30 #36 "Spirit"
                                        West River, Md.

                                        --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Al Lorman" <ajl@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > David Manning is a superb surveyor and very familiar with Sabres.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Al Lorman
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com]
                                        > On Behalf Of josrulz_2001
                                        > Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:36 PM
                                        > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat search
                                        > we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a "fatal
                                        > flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't know how
                                        > familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                                        >
                                        > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                                        > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's listed
                                        > on the BoatUS link.
                                        >
                                        > -Jim
                                        >
                                        > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                        > <mailto:Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com> , "zanoned" <dvzee1@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar with
                                        > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • sabre30_36
                                        Going up the mast while the boat is on the hard is a very bad idea. Most yards will not allow it. When a sailboat is out of the water, none of the physics of
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Sep 15, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Going up the mast while the boat is on the hard is a very bad idea. Most yards will not allow it.

                                          When a sailboat is out of the water, none of the physics of the righting moment of the keel are at work so it is really seriously dangerous to go up the mast.

                                          Eric
                                          Sabre 30 #36 "Spirit"
                                          West River, Md.


                                          --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <HarryK@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Gale didn't do my boat, but Hartoff did. I'm a VERY unhappy client.
                                          >
                                          > * No trip up the mast. Granted, the boat was on the hard, and perhaps they wouldn't do it on the hard (not sure I would either!), but there was NO mention of "oh, we would have" or a discount for not. I don't feel like it was in their routine.
                                          > * On the boat for about 2 hours, maybe more like 90 minutes.
                                          > * The propeller shaft fell out of the coupling (and damn near out of the boat!) on my delivery home.
                                          > * Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" "shackles in the rigging." When I read his report, I couldn't find what he was talking about, and decided he was referring to the main halyard shackle (The wire/rope halyard was made down to a stanchion base, and I have to assume he thought it was a shroud) This conclusion was further enhanced by his statement in the report that there was only one halyard on the boat (there was a main and jib halyard). I emailed him asking for clarification, never got a response.
                                          > * Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the steaming light was out. I checked it the day before, it was working. I checked it an hour after he left, it was working. I have checked it several times since, it is still working. Maybe daylight was a problem?
                                          > * I have since removed the little trim pieces on the chainplate knees for inspection. The knees are black -- not rotten, I don't think (I hope!), but it sure would have been nice if a surveyor had pointed that out to me! (And perhaps he might have a more professional opinion than my "I don't think they are rotten").
                                          > * Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the rudder should be inspected at every future haul-out for water intrusion. What am I supposed to do with THAT finding? I told the insurance company "sure, I'll do that" but it is hardly a deficiency or something that I can "correct" and put a date by the item.
                                          > * Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" circular cotter keys in the life lines. They come that way from the store even today!
                                          > * I showed up about an hour after he did, so I might have missed what he did, but I found no evidence on any of the through hulls of scraping them to see the condition of the bronze.
                                          > * The biggest things he did identify (and make into underwriting issues) were "changing codes" kind of things -- no grab bar in front of the stove, no fiberglass battery box enclosure, no breakers on the battery cables, no hold-opens on the cockpit lockers, diesel fill/vent hoses that don't meet current code, that kind of thing. Judging by the pictures I've seen here, as well as boats for sale on Yachtworld, there are a very large number of people out there with these hits. I'm lucky he didn't make me remove my CNG tank (it's not in a dedicated locker)!
                                          > Bottom line, I don't think I got my $800 or so's worth. Not counting travel, that was nearly $400 an hour!
                                          >
                                          > I don't know if others are any better, but I'd sure like to see!
                                          >
                                          > Harry
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: John Lark
                                          > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Thu 03 Sep 2009 19:00
                                          > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Dennis,
                                          > They didn't do my Sabre, and don't know how familiar they are with them,
                                          > but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
                                          > Hartoff Marine Surveyors and was very pleased, she did an excellent job,
                                          > went up the mast and spend all day on the boat. Hartoff is at (410)
                                          > 263-3609. Most surveyors don't do a real thorough review of the engine,
                                          > I'd suggest you call Chris Oliver (410) 643-1545. He is a Marine diesel
                                          > surveyor, been around a long time and is one of the most knowledgeable
                                          > people you will ever meet regarding marine engines. He does a very
                                          > thorough job and for what you get is very inexpensive. Worth his weight
                                          > (and he's a big guy) in gold if want to be comfortable with the engine.
                                          >
                                          > John Lark
                                          > s/v Rejoice, Sabre 38 MkII
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "Dennis Zanone" <dvzee1@...>
                                          > To: <Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:22 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey
                                          >
                                          > Thanks for the recommendation
                                          >
                                          > Dennis
                                          >
                                          > On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat
                                          > > search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a
                                          > > "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't
                                          > know
                                          > > how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                                          > >
                                          > > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                                          > > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's
                                          > listed
                                          > > on the BoatUS link.
                                          > >
                                          > > -Jim
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <Sabresailboat%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > > "zanoned" <dvzee1@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar
                                          > with
                                          > > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Harry
                                          I don t doubt that it s a bad idea, and really didn t expect them to. My comment was that I really don t think that mast climbing is part of his routine -- if
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Sep 15, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I don't doubt that it's a bad idea, and really didn't expect them to.  My comment was that I really don't think that mast climbing is part of his routine -- if he would have done it normally, I would think he might have mentioned that.

                                            Harry
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Tue 15 Sep 2009 11:05
                                            Subject: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey

                                             

                                            Going up the mast while the boat is on the hard is a very bad idea. Most yards will not allow it.

                                            When a sailboat is out of the water, none of the physics of the righting moment of the keel are at work so it is really seriously dangerous to go up the mast.

                                            Eric
                                            Sabre 30 #36 "Spirit"
                                            West River, Md.

                                            --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com, "Harry" <HarryK@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Gale didn't do my boat, but Hartoff did. I'm a VERY unhappy client.
                                            >
                                            > * No trip up the mast. Granted, the boat was on the hard, and perhaps they wouldn't do it on the hard (not sure I would either!), but there was NO mention of "oh, we would have" or a discount for not. I don't feel like it was in their routine.
                                            > * On the boat for about 2 hours, maybe more like 90 minutes.
                                            > * The propeller shaft fell out of the coupling (and damn near out of the boat!) on my delivery home.
                                            > * Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" "shackles in the rigging." When I read his report, I couldn't find what he was talking about, and decided he was referring to the main halyard shackle (The wire/rope halyard was made down to a stanchion base, and I have to assume he thought it was a shroud) This conclusion was further enhanced by his statement in the report that there was only one halyard on the boat (there was a main and jib halyard). I emailed him asking for clarification, never got a response.
                                            > * Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the steaming light was out. I checked it the day before, it was working. I checked it an hour after he left, it was working. I have checked it several times since, it is still working. Maybe daylight was a problem?
                                            > * I have since removed the little trim pieces on the chainplate knees for inspection. The knees are black -- not rotten, I don't think (I hope!), but it sure would have been nice if a surveyor had pointed that out to me! (And perhaps he might have a more professional opinion than my "I don't think they are rotten").
                                            > * Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" that the rudder should be inspected at every future haul-out for water intrusion. What am I supposed to do with THAT finding? I told the insurance company "sure, I'll do that" but it is hardly a deficiency or something that I can "correct" and put a date by the item.
                                            > * Cited as an "underwriting deficiency" circular cotter keys in the life lines. They come that way from the store even today!
                                            > * I showed up about an hour after he did, so I might have missed what he did, but I found no evidence on any of the through hulls of scraping them to see the condition of the bronze.
                                            > * The biggest things he did identify (and make into underwriting issues) were "changing codes" kind of things -- no grab bar in front of the stove, no fiberglass battery box enclosure, no breakers on the battery cables, no hold-opens on the cockpit lockers, diesel fill/vent hoses that don't meet current code, that kind of thing. Judging by the pictures I've seen here, as well as boats for sale on Yachtworld, there are a very large number of people out there with these hits. I'm lucky he didn't make me remove my CNG tank (it's not in a dedicated locker)!
                                            > Bottom line, I don't think I got my $800 or so's worth. Not counting travel, that was nearly $400 an hour!
                                            >
                                            > I don't know if others are any better, but I'd sure like to see!
                                            >
                                            > Harry
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: John Lark
                                            > To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > Sent: Thu 03 Sep 2009 19:00
                                            > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Dennis,
                                            > They didn't do my Sabre, and don't know how familiar they are with them,
                                            > but I did have a previous boat surveyed in Annapolis by Gale Browning at
                                            > Hartoff Marine Surveyors and was very pleased, she did an excellent job,
                                            > went up the mast and spend all day on the boat. Hartoff is at (410)
                                            > 263-3609. Most surveyors don't do a real thorough review of the engine,
                                            > I'd suggest you call Chris Oliver (410) 643-1545. He is a Marine diesel
                                            > surveyor, been around a long time and is one of the most knowledgeable
                                            > people you will ever meet regarding marine engines. He does a very
                                            > thorough job and for what you get is very inexpensive. Worth his weight
                                            > (and he's a big guy) in gold if want to be comfortable with the engine.
                                            >
                                            > John Lark
                                            > s/v Rejoice, Sabre 38 MkII
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: "Dennis Zanone" <dvzee1@...>
                                            > To: <Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com>
                                            > Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:22 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Re: Survey
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for the recommendation
                                            >
                                            > Dennis
                                            >
                                            > On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 5:36 PM, josrulz_2001 <josrulz_2001@ ...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > We didn't buy our Sabre locally in Maryland. However, during our boat
                                            > > search we did have another boat surveyed in MD (the survey turned up a
                                            > > "fatal flaw", so we moved on). The surveyor was David Manning. I don't
                                            > know
                                            > > how familiar with Sabres he his, but he's worth a call to find out.
                                            > >
                                            > > He was very thorough, and took his time to explain what he was
                                            > > seeing/finding. We had a positive experience with him. I believe he's
                                            > listed
                                            > > on the BoatUS link.
                                            > >
                                            > > -Jim
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > <Sabresailboat% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                                            > > "zanoned" <dvzee1@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Would like recommendations and contact info for surveyor familiar
                                            > with
                                            > > Sabre in the Annapolis area. Must also be good with engines.
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >

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