Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Rudder and steering

Expand Messages
  • graham broadhurst
    Folks I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last year had
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
      Folks
      I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before
      but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last
      year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this
      motivated me.
      I have some information to share which some may know already. This is
      in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments
      are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then
      filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the
      first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not
      the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded
      delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a
      failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
      Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at
      the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to
      check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore.
      Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled
      to a false post and hope to get it welded.
      Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says
      to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks
      easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and
      filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my
      false post.
      Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
      Graham S34-1 Fearless
    • William M. Bickley
      ... From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of graham broadhurst Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 4:03 PM To:
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
        Message
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of graham broadhurst
        Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 4:03 PM
        To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering

        Folks
        I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before
        but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last
        year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this
        motivated me.
        I have some information to share which some may know already. This is
        in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments
        are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then
        filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the
        first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not
        the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded
        delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a
        failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
        Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at
        the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to
        check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore.
        Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled
        to a false post and hope to get it welded.
        Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says
        to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks
        easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and
        filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my
        false post.
        Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
        Graham S34-1 Fearless

        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.4/1976 - Release Date: 02/27/09 13:27:00

      • Bill Blalock
        Graham, I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel. I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 1, 2009
          Graham,
           
          I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel.  I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty bucks.
           
          What part is worn oval?  The bearing sleave (The part between the post and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit?  I've had that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
           
          Is the rudder in the boat?
           
          Bill B
          S38mk1 

          On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@...> wrote:

          Folks
          I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before
          but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last
          year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this
          motivated me.
          I have some information to share which some may know already. This is
          in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments
          are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then
          filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the
          first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not
          the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded
          delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a
          failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
          Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at
          the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to
          check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore.
          Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled
          to a false post and hope to get it welded.
          Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says
          to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks
          easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and
          filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my
          false post.
          Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
          Graham S34-1 Fearless


        • GRAHAM BROADHURST
          Bill Thanks for the answer and help I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
            Bill
            Thanks for the answer and help
            I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the crack.
            I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too much.
            I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc.  Then try to get one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite and filler to finish the bore.
            I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder.  It has made the house smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it was splashing that bad.
            Graham S34 Fearless


            --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@...> wrote:
            From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@...>
            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
            Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM

            Graham,
             
            I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel.  I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty bucks.
             
            What part is worn oval?  The bearing sleave (The part between the post and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit?  I've had that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
             
            Is the rudder in the boat?
             
            Bill B
            S38mk1 

            On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
            Folks
            I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before
            but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last
            year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this
            motivated me.
            I have some information to share which some may know already. This is
            in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments
            are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then
            filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the
            first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not
            the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded
            delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a
            failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
            Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at
            the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to
            check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore.
            Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled
            to a false post and hope to get it welded.
            Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says
            to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks
            easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and
            filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my
            false post.
            Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
            Graham S34-1 Fearless


          • Bill Blalock
            Graham West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting epoxy. You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would do it with the
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
              Graham
              West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting epoxy.  You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would do it with the rudder/rudder post in place to serve as the mold with the rudder post well greased and lots of graphite in the epoxy.  You might want to then drop the rudder and drill and tap for a couple of ss zerks to lube the post in the future.  Works like a charm.
              Bill B

              On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:49 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST <doversabre@...> wrote:

              Bill
              Thanks for the answer and help
              I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the crack.
              I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too much.
              I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc.  Then try to get one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite and filler to finish the bore.
              I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder.  It has made the house smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it was splashing that bad.
              Graham S34 Fearless


              --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@...> wrote:
              From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@...>
              Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
              To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
              Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM


              Graham,
               
              I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel.  I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty bucks.
               
              What part is worn oval?  The bearing sleave (The part between the post and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit?  I've had that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
               
              Is the rudder in the boat?
               
              Bill B
              S38mk1 

              On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
              Folks
              I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before
              but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last
              year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this
              motivated me.
              I have some information to share which some may know already. This is
              in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments
              are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then
              filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the
              first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not
              the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded
              delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a
              failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
              Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at
              the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to
              check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore.
              Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled
              to a false post and hope to get it welded.
              Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says
              to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks
              easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and
              filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my
              false post.
              Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
              Graham S34-1 Fearless



            • GRAHAM BROADHURST
              Bill I have a dummy tube which I was going to use to check the bore as I repaired it. Rudder is a bit heavy to lift in and out. Figured I could grease that up
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
                Bill
                I have a dummy tube which I was going to use to check the bore as I repaired it. Rudder is a bit heavy to lift in and out. Figured I could grease that up and add a hefty bar to it so I can free it off as the epoxy cures. I have also followed the threads regarding grease fittings and planned to install them as well.
                Graham

                --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@...> wrote:
                From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@...>
                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 2:08 PM

                Graham
                West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting epoxy.  You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would do it with the rudder/rudder post in place to serve as the mold with the rudder post well greased and lots of graphite in the epoxy.  You might want to then drop the rudder and drill and tap for a couple of ss zerks to lube the post in the future.  Works like a charm.
                Bill B

                On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:49 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                Bill
                Thanks for the answer and help
                I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the crack.
                I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too much.
                I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc.  Then try to get one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite and filler to finish the bore.
                I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder.  It has made the house smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it was splashing that bad.
                Graham S34 Fearless


                --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM


                Graham,
                 
                I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel.  I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty bucks.
                 
                What part is worn oval?  The bearing sleave (The part between the post and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit?  I've had that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
                 
                Is the rudder in the boat?
                 
                Bill B
                S38mk1 

                On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                Folks
                I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before
                but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last
                year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this
                motivated me.
                I have some information to share which some may know already. This is
                in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments
                are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then
                filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the
                first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not
                the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded
                delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a
                failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
                Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at
                the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to
                check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore.
                Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled
                to a false post and hope to get it welded.
                Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says
                to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks
                easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and
                filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my
                false post.
                Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
                Graham S34-1 Fearless



              • Bill Blalock
                Graham You could certainly make that work, and it has its advantages. Be extra careful that the alignment will allow the rudder to move without binding on the
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
                  Graham
                   
                  You could certainly make that work, and it has its advantages.  Be extra careful that the alignment will allow the rudder to move without binding on the hull.  You can't change it once it's done.  The dummy tube should be within a 1/32" of the rudder tube diameter.  Using the rudder is a bit of a pain, but I ran a spin halyard through a block on the backstay and then straight down the rudder hole to the top of the rudder post.  With that, it's not too bad to raise, lower, and align using the rudder itself, and you know eveything will fit afterwards.
                   
                  I will defer to whatever West System says, but I don't think you want to move anything until the epoxy has set, or you will 'waller' the soft epoxy out of round.  With grease on the post and graphite in the mix, it shouldn't stick at all.
                   
                  Bill B

                  On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST <doversabre@...> wrote:

                  Bill
                  I have a dummy tube which I was going to use to check the bore as I repaired it. Rudder is a bit heavy to lift in and out. Figured I could grease that up and add a hefty bar to it so I can free it off as the epoxy cures. I have also followed the threads regarding grease fittings and planned to install them as well.
                  Graham

                  --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@...> wrote:
                  From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                  To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 2:08 PM

                  Graham
                  West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting epoxy.  You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would do it with the rudder/rudder post in place to serve as the mold with the rudder post well greased and lots of graphite in the epoxy.  You might want to then drop the rudder and drill and tap for a couple of ss zerks to lube the post in the future.  Works like a charm.
                  Bill B

                  On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:49 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                  Bill
                  Thanks for the answer and help
                  I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the crack.
                  I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too much.
                  I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc.  Then try to get one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite and filler to finish the bore.
                  I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder.  It has made the house smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it was splashing that bad.
                  Graham S34 Fearless


                  --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                  From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                  Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                  To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                  Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM


                  Graham,
                   
                  I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel.  I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty bucks.
                   
                  What part is worn oval?  The bearing sleave (The part between the post and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit?  I've had that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
                   
                  Is the rudder in the boat?
                   
                  Bill B
                  S38mk1 

                  On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                  Folks
                  I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before
                  but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last
                  year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this
                  motivated me.
                  I have some information to share which some may know already. This is
                  in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments
                  are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then
                  filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the
                  first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not
                  the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded
                  delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a
                  failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
                  Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at
                  the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to
                  check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore.
                  Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled
                  to a false post and hope to get it welded.
                  Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says
                  to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks
                  easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and
                  filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my
                  false post.
                  Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
                  Graham S34-1 Fearless




                • Peter Tollini
                  Graham - If you use the dummy post, drill through the bottom so you can insert a bar and give it a twist, then a straight pull once the epoxy has hardened. It
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
                    Graham -
                    If you use the dummy post, drill through the bottom so you can insert a bar and give it a twist, then a straight pull once the epoxy has hardened.  It shouldn't be an issue, as Bill says, but the twisting motion is the most effective way to break it loose if it sticks.
                    Pete

                    On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@...> wrote:

                    Graham
                     
                    You could certainly make that work, and it has its advantages.  Be extra careful that the alignment will allow the rudder to move without binding on the hull.  You can't change it once it's done.  The dummy tube should be within a 1/32" of the rudder tube diameter.  Using the rudder is a bit of a pain, but I ran a spin halyard through a block on the backstay and then straight down the rudder hole to the top of the rudder post.  With that, it's not too bad to raise, lower, and align using the rudder itself, and you know eveything will fit afterwards.
                     
                    I will defer to whatever West System says, but I don't think you want to move anything until the epoxy has set, or you will 'waller' the soft epoxy out of round.  With grease on the post and graphite in the mix, it shouldn't stick at all.
                     
                    Bill B

                    On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST <doversabre@...> wrote:

                    Bill
                    I have a dummy tube which I was going to use to check the bore as I repaired it. Rudder is a bit heavy to lift in and out. Figured I could grease that up and add a hefty bar to it so I can free it off as the epoxy cures. I have also followed the threads regarding grease fittings and planned to install them as well.
                    Graham

                    --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@...> wrote:
                    From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@...>
                    Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                    To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                    Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 2:08 PM

                    Graham
                    West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting epoxy.  You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would do it with the rudder/rudder post in place to serve as the mold with the rudder post well greased and lots of graphite in the epoxy.  You might want to then drop the rudder and drill and tap for a couple of ss zerks to lube the post in the future.  Works like a charm.
                    Bill B

                    On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:49 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                    Bill
                    Thanks for the answer and help
                    I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the crack.
                    I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too much.
                    I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc.  Then try to get one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite and filler to finish the bore.
                    I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder.  It has made the house smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it was splashing that bad.
                    Graham S34 Fearless


                    --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                    From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                    Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                    To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                    Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM


                    Graham,
                     
                    I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel.  I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty bucks.
                     
                    What part is worn oval?  The bearing sleave (The part between the post and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit?  I've had that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
                     
                    Is the rudder in the boat?
                     
                    Bill B
                    S38mk1 

                    On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                    Folks
                    I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before
                    but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last
                    year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this
                    motivated me.
                    I have some information to share which some may know already. This is
                    in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments
                    are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then
                    filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the
                    first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not
                    the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded
                    delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a
                    failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
                    Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at
                    the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to
                    check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore.
                    Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled
                    to a false post and hope to get it welded.
                    Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says
                    to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks
                    easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and
                    filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my
                    false post.
                    Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
                    Graham S34-1 Fearless





                  • GRAHAM BROADHURST
                    Peter I planned to either do that or weld a bar accross the end depending on whether I coudl spare any length. Graham ... From: Peter Tollini
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
                      Peter
                      I planned to either do that or weld a bar accross the end depending on whether I coudl spare any length.
                      Graham

                      --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:
                      From: Peter Tollini <pete@...>
                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                      Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:55 PM

                      Graham -
                      If you use the dummy post, drill through the bottom so you can insert a bar and give it a twist, then a straight pull once the epoxy has hardened.  It shouldn't be an issue, as Bill says, but the twisting motion is the most effective way to break it loose if it sticks.
                      Pete

                      On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                      Graham
                       
                      You could certainly make that work, and it has its advantages.  Be extra careful that the alignment will allow the rudder to move without binding on the hull.  You can't change it once it's done.  The dummy tube should be within a 1/32" of the rudder tube diameter.  Using the rudder is a bit of a pain, but I ran a spin halyard through a block on the backstay and then straight down the rudder hole to the top of the rudder post.  With that, it's not too bad to raise, lower, and align using the rudder itself, and you know eveything will fit afterwards.
                       
                      I will defer to whatever West System says, but I don't think you want to move anything until the epoxy has set, or you will 'waller' the soft epoxy out of round.  With grease on the post and graphite in the mix, it shouldn't stick at all.
                       
                      Bill B

                      On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                      Bill
                      I have a dummy tube which I was going to use to check the bore as I repaired it. Rudder is a bit heavy to lift in and out. Figured I could grease that up and add a hefty bar to it so I can free it off as the epoxy cures. I have also followed the threads regarding grease fittings and planned to install them as well.
                      Graham

                      --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                      From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                      To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                      Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 2:08 PM

                      Graham
                      West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting epoxy.  You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would do it with the rudder/rudder post in place to serve as the mold with the rudder post well greased and lots of graphite in the epoxy.  You might want to then drop the rudder and drill and tap for a couple of ss zerks to lube the post in the future.  Works like a charm.
                      Bill B

                      On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:49 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                      Bill
                      Thanks for the answer and help
                      I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the crack.
                      I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too much.
                      I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc.  Then try to get one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite and filler to finish the bore.
                      I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder.  It has made the house smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it was splashing that bad.
                      Graham S34 Fearless


                      --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                      From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                      To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                      Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM


                      Graham,
                       
                      I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel.  I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty bucks.
                       
                      What part is worn oval?  The bearing sleave (The part between the post and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit?  I've had that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
                       
                      Is the rudder in the boat?
                       
                      Bill B
                      S38mk1 

                      On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                      Folks
                      I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before
                      but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last
                      year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this
                      motivated me.
                      I have some information to share which some may know already. This is
                      in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments
                      are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then
                      filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the
                      first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not
                      the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded
                      delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a
                      failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
                      Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at
                      the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to
                      check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore.
                      Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled
                      to a false post and hope to get it welded.
                      Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says
                      to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks
                      easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and
                      filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my
                      false post.
                      Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
                      Graham S34-1 Fearless





                    • Leonard Bertaux
                      Bill etall As you seem to be one of the resident Sabre rudder experts I m hopeful you can answer my simple question. The rudder on my 38 has two grease cups.
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
                        Bill etall

                        As you seem to be one of the resident Sabre rudder experts I'm hopeful you can answer my simple question.
                        The rudder on my 38 has two grease cups. I've never run across these before. Mine are brass, with a nut at the rudder shaft and a larger cup with what appears to be a threaded cap fitted with a knurled edge. Zirc fittings I understand but how do these work? Thanks.

                        Len

                        On Mar 2, 2009, at 12:02 PM, GRAHAM BROADHURST wrote:


                        Peter
                        I planned to either do that or weld a bar accross the end depending on whether I coudl spare any length.
                        Graham

                        --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Peter Tollini <pete@tollini. com> wrote:
                        From: Peter Tollini <pete@tollini. com>
                        Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                        To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                        Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:55 PM

                        Graham -
                        If you use the dummy post, drill through the bottom so you can insert a bar and give it a twist, then a straight pull once the epoxy has hardened.  It shouldn't be an issue, as Bill says, but the twisting motion is the most effective way to break it loose if it sticks.
                        Pete

                        On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>wrote:
                        Graham
                         
                        You could certainly make that work, and it has its advantages.  Be extra careful that the alignment will allow the rudder to move without binding on the hull.  You can't change it once it's done.  The dummy tube should be within a 1/32" of the rudder tube diameter.  Using the rudder is a bit of a pain, but I ran a spin halyard through a block on the backstay and then straight down the rudder hole to the top of the rudder post.  With that, it's not too bad to raise, lower, and align using the rudder itself, and you know eveything will fit afterwards.
                         
                        I will defer to whatever West System says, but I don't think you want to move anything until the epoxy has set, or you will 'waller' the soft epoxy out of round.  With grease on the post and graphite in the mix, it shouldn't stick at all.
                         
                        Bill B

                        On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                        Bill
                        I have a dummy tube which I was going to use to check the bore as I repaired it. Rudder is a bit heavy to lift in and out. Figured I could grease that up and add a hefty bar to it so I can free it off as the epoxy cures. I have also followed the threads regarding grease fittings and planned to install them as well.
                        Graham

                        --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                        From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                        Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                        To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                        Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 2:08 PM

                        Graham
                        West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting epoxy.  You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would do it with the rudder/rudder post in place to serve as the mold with the rudder post well greased and lots of graphite in the epoxy.  You might want to then drop the rudder and drill and tap for a couple of ss zerks to lube the post in the future.  Works like a charm.
                        Bill B

                        On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:49 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                        Bill
                        Thanks for the answer and help
                        I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the crack.
                        I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too much.
                        I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc.  Then try to get one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite and filler to finish the bore.
                        I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder.  It has made the house smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it was splashing that bad.
                        Graham S34 Fearless


                        --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                        From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                        Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                        To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                        Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM


                        Graham,
                         
                        I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel.  I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty bucks.
                         
                        What part is worn oval?  The bearing sleave (The part between the post and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit?  I've had that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
                         
                        Is the rudder in the boat?
                         
                        Bill B
                        S38mk1 

                        On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                        Folks
                        I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before 
                        but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last 
                        year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this 
                        motivated me.
                        I have some information to share which some may know already. This is 
                        in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments 
                        are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then 
                        filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the 
                        first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not 
                        the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded 
                        delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a 
                        failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
                        Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at 
                        the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to 
                        check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore. 
                        Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled 
                        to a false post and hope to get it welded.
                        Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says 
                        to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks 
                        easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and 
                        filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my 
                        false post.
                        Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
                        Graham S34-1 Fearless







                      • GRAHAM BROADHURST
                        Leonard Fill the cup with grease and screw it back on.  Greaser ... From: Leonard Bertaux Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
                          Leonard
                          Fill the cup with grease and screw it back on.  Greaser

                          --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@...> wrote:
                          From: Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@...>
                          Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                          To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                          Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 6:00 PM

                          Bill etall

                          As you seem to be one of the resident Sabre rudder experts I'm hopeful you can answer my simple question.
                          The rudder on my 38 has two grease cups. I've never run across these before. Mine are brass, with a nut at the rudder shaft and a larger cup with what appears to be a threaded cap fitted with a knurled edge. Zirc fittings I understand but how do these work? Thanks.

                          Len

                          On Mar 2, 2009, at 12:02 PM, GRAHAM BROADHURST wrote:


                          Peter
                          I planned to either do that or weld a bar accross the end depending on whether I coudl spare any length.
                          Graham

                          --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Peter Tollini <pete@tollini. com> wrote:
                          From: Peter Tollini <pete@tollini. com>
                          Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                          To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                          Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:55 PM

                          Graham -
                          If you use the dummy post, drill through the bottom so you can insert a bar and give it a twist, then a straight pull once the epoxy has hardened.  It shouldn't be an issue, as Bill says, but the twisting motion is the most effective way to break it loose if it sticks.
                          Pete

                          On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>wrote:
                          Graham
                           
                          You could certainly make that work, and it has its advantages.  Be extra careful that the alignment will allow the rudder to move without binding on the hull.  You can't change it once it's done.  The dummy tube should be within a 1/32" of the rudder tube diameter.  Using the rudder is a bit of a pain, but I ran a spin halyard through a block on the backstay and then straight down the rudder hole to the top of the rudder post.  With that, it's not too bad to raise, lower, and align using the rudder itself, and you know eveything will fit afterwards.
                           
                          I will defer to whatever West System says, but I don't think you want to move anything until the epoxy has set, or you will 'waller' the soft epoxy out of round.  With grease on the post and graphite in the mix, it shouldn't stick at all.
                           
                          Bill B

                          On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                          Bill
                          I have a dummy tube which I was going to use to check the bore as I repaired it. Rudder is a bit heavy to lift in and out. Figured I could grease that up and add a hefty bar to it so I can free it off as the epoxy cures. I have also followed the threads regarding grease fittings and planned to install them as well.
                          Graham

                          --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                          From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                          Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                          To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                          Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 2:08 PM

                          Graham
                          West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting epoxy.  You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would do it with the rudder/rudder post in place to serve as the mold with the rudder post well greased and lots of graphite in the epoxy.  You might want to then drop the rudder and drill and tap for a couple of ss zerks to lube the post in the future.  Works like a charm.
                          Bill B

                          On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:49 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                          Bill
                          Thanks for the answer and help
                          I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the crack.
                          I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too much.
                          I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc.  Then try to get one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite and filler to finish the bore.
                          I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder.  It has made the house smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it was splashing that bad.
                          Graham S34 Fearless


                          --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                          From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                          Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                          To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                          Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM


                          Graham,
                           
                          I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel.  I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty bucks.
                           
                          What part is worn oval?  The bearing sleave (The part between the post and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit?  I've had that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
                           
                          Is the rudder in the boat?
                           
                          Bill B
                          S38mk1 

                          On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                          Folks
                          I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before 
                          but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last 
                          year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this 
                          motivated me.
                          I have some information to share which some may know already. This is 
                          in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments 
                          are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then 
                          filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the 
                          first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not 
                          the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded 
                          delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a 
                          failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
                          Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at 
                          the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to 
                          check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore. 
                          Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled 
                          to a false post and hope to get it welded.
                          Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says 
                          to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks 
                          easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and 
                          filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my 
                          false post.
                          Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
                          Graham S34-1 Fearless







                        • GRAHAM BROADHURST
                          Leonard Fill the cup with grease and screw it back on.  Grease is forced into bushing Graham ... From: Leonard Bertaux Subject: Re:
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
                            Leonard
                            Fill the cup with grease and screw it back on.  Grease is forced into bushing
                            Graham

                            --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@...> wrote:
                            From: Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@...>
                            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                            To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                            Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 6:00 PM

                            Bill etall

                            As you seem to be one of the resident Sabre rudder experts I'm hopeful you can answer my simple question.
                            The rudder on my 38 has two grease cups. I've never run across these before. Mine are brass, with a nut at the rudder shaft and a larger cup with what appears to be a threaded cap fitted with a knurled edge. Zirc fittings I understand but how do these work? Thanks.

                            Len

                            On Mar 2, 2009, at 12:02 PM, GRAHAM BROADHURST wrote:


                            Peter
                            I planned to either do that or weld a bar accross the end depending on whether I coudl spare any length.
                            Graham

                            --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Peter Tollini <pete@tollini. com> wrote:
                            From: Peter Tollini <pete@tollini. com>
                            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                            To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                            Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:55 PM

                            Graham -
                            If you use the dummy post, drill through the bottom so you can insert a bar and give it a twist, then a straight pull once the epoxy has hardened.  It shouldn't be an issue, as Bill says, but the twisting motion is the most effective way to break it loose if it sticks.
                            Pete

                            On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>wrote:
                            Graham
                             
                            You could certainly make that work, and it has its advantages.  Be extra careful that the alignment will allow the rudder to move without binding on the hull.  You can't change it once it's done.  The dummy tube should be within a 1/32" of the rudder tube diameter.  Using the rudder is a bit of a pain, but I ran a spin halyard through a block on the backstay and then straight down the rudder hole to the top of the rudder post.  With that, it's not too bad to raise, lower, and align using the rudder itself, and you know eveything will fit afterwards.
                             
                            I will defer to whatever West System says, but I don't think you want to move anything until the epoxy has set, or you will 'waller' the soft epoxy out of round.  With grease on the post and graphite in the mix, it shouldn't stick at all.
                             
                            Bill B

                            On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                            Bill
                            I have a dummy tube which I was going to use to check the bore as I repaired it. Rudder is a bit heavy to lift in and out. Figured I could grease that up and add a hefty bar to it so I can free it off as the epoxy cures. I have also followed the threads regarding grease fittings and planned to install them as well.
                            Graham

                            --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                            From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                            To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                            Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 2:08 PM

                            Graham
                            West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting epoxy.  You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would do it with the rudder/rudder post in place to serve as the mold with the rudder post well greased and lots of graphite in the epoxy.  You might want to then drop the rudder and drill and tap for a couple of ss zerks to lube the post in the future.  Works like a charm.
                            Bill B

                            On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:49 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                            Bill
                            Thanks for the answer and help
                            I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the crack.
                            I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too much.
                            I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc.  Then try to get one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite and filler to finish the bore.
                            I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder.  It has made the house smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it was splashing that bad.
                            Graham S34 Fearless


                            --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                            From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                            Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                            To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                            Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM


                            Graham,
                             
                            I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel.  I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty bucks.
                             
                            What part is worn oval?  The bearing sleave (The part between the post and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit?  I've had that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
                             
                            Is the rudder in the boat?
                             
                            Bill B
                            S38mk1 

                            On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                            Folks
                            I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before 
                            but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last 
                            year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this 
                            motivated me.
                            I have some information to share which some may know already. This is 
                            in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments 
                            are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then 
                            filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the 
                            first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not 
                            the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded 
                            delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a 
                            failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
                            Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at 
                            the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to 
                            check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore. 
                            Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled 
                            to a false post and hope to get it welded.
                            Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says 
                            to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks 
                            easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and 
                            filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my 
                            false post.
                            Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
                            Graham S34-1 Fearless







                          • David Evans
                            Fill em with grease and twist! Swing the tiller back and forth and repeat. dge
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
                              Fill 'em with grease and twist!
                              Swing the tiller back and forth and repeat.
                              dge

                              > Bill etall
                              >
                              > As you seem to be one of the resident Sabre rudder experts I'm hopeful
                              > you can answer my simple question.
                              > The rudder on my 38 has two grease cups. I've never run across these
                              > before. Mine are brass, with a nut at the rudder shaft and a larger
                              > cup with what appears to be a threaded cap fitted with a knurled edge.
                              > Zirc fittings I understand but how do these work? Thanks.
                              >
                              > Len
                              >
                              > On Mar 2, 2009, at 12:02 PM, GRAHAM BROADHURST wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Peter
                              > I planned to either do that or weld a bar accross the end depending on
                              > whether I coudl spare any length.
                              > Graham
                              >
                              > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Peter Tollini <pete@...> wrote:
                              > From: Peter Tollini <pete@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                              > To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
                              > Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:55 PM
                              >
                              > Graham -
                              > If you use the dummy post, drill through the bottom so you can insert
                              > a bar and give it a twist, then a straight pull once the epoxy has
                              > hardened. It shouldn't be an issue, as Bill says, but the twisting
                              > motion is the most effective way to break it loose if it sticks.
                              > Pete
                              >
                              > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@
                              > gmail.com>wrote:
                              > Graham
                              >
                              > You could certainly make that work, and it has its advantages. Be
                              > extra careful that the alignment will allow the rudder to move without
                              > binding on the hull. You can't change it once it's done. The dummy
                              > tube should be within a 1/32" of the rudder tube diameter. Using the
                              > rudder is a bit of a pain, but I ran a spin halyard through a block on
                              > the backstay and then straight down the rudder hole to the top of the
                              > rudder post. With that, it's not too bad to raise, lower, and align
                              > using the rudder itself, and you know eveything will fit afterwards.
                              >
                              > I will defer to whatever West System says, but I don't think you want
                              > to move anything until the epoxy has set, or you will 'waller' the
                              > soft epoxy out of round. With grease on the post and graphite in the
                              > mix, it shouldn't stick at all.
                              >
                              > Bill B
                              >
                              > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversabre@rogers.
                              > com> wrote:
                              > Bill
                              > I have a dummy tube which I was going to use to check the bore as I
                              > repaired it. Rudder is a bit heavy to lift in and out. Figured I could
                              > grease that up and add a hefty bar to it so I can free it off as the
                              > epoxy cures. I have also followed the threads regarding grease
                              > fittings and planned to install them as well.
                              > Graham
                              >
                              > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                              > From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                              > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                              > To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                              > Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 2:08 PM
                              >
                              > Graham
                              > West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting
                              > epoxy. You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would
                              > do it with the rudder/rudder post in place to serve as the mold with
                              > the rudder post well greased and lots of graphite in the epoxy. You
                              > might want to then drop the rudder and drill and tap for a couple of
                              > ss zerks to lube the post in the future. Works like a charm.
                              > Bill B
                              >
                              > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:49 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversabre@rogers.
                              > com> wrote:
                              > Bill
                              > Thanks for the answer and help
                              > I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go
                              > wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the
                              > crack.
                              > I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube
                              > runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too
                              > much.
                              > I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc. Then try to get
                              > one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite
                              > and filler to finish the bore.
                              > I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder. It has made the house
                              > smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it
                              > was splashing that bad.
                              > Graham S34 Fearless
                              >
                              >
                              > --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                              > From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                              > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                              > To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                              > Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM
                              >
                              >
                              > Graham,
                              >
                              > I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel. I took it to a good
                              > local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem,
                              > maybe twenty bucks.
                              >
                              > What part is worn oval? The bearing sleave (The part between the post
                              > and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit? I've had
                              > that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
                              >
                              > Is the rudder in the boat?
                              >
                              > Bill B
                              > S38mk1
                              >
                              > On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@rogers.
                              > com> wrote:
                              > Folks
                              > I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before
                              > but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last
                              > year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this
                              > motivated me.
                              > I have some information to share which some may know already. This is
                              > in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments
                              > are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then
                              > filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the
                              > first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not
                              > the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded
                              > delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a
                              > failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
                              > Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at
                              > the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to
                              > check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore.
                              > Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled
                              > to a false post and hope to get it welded.
                              > Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says
                              > to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks
                              > easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and
                              > filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my
                              > false post.
                              > Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
                              > Graham S34-1 Fearless
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Leonard Bertaux
                              Thanks On Mar 2, 2009, at 1:06 PM, GRAHAM BROADHURST wrote: Leonard Fill the cup with grease and screw it back on. Greaser ... From: Leonard Bertaux
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
                                Thanks

                                On Mar 2, 2009, at 1:06 PM, GRAHAM BROADHURST wrote:


                                Leonard
                                Fill the cup with grease and screw it back on.  Greaser 

                                --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@comcast. net> wrote:
                                From: Leonard Bertaux <lbertaux@comcast. net>
                                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                                To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                                Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 6:00 PM

                                Bill etall

                                As you seem to be one of the resident Sabre rudder experts I'm hopeful you can answer my simple question.
                                The rudder on my 38 has two grease cups. I've never run across these before. Mine are brass, with a nut at the rudder shaft and a larger cup with what appears to be a threaded cap fitted with a knurled edge. Zirc fittings I understand but how do these work? Thanks.

                                Len

                                On Mar 2, 2009, at 12:02 PM, GRAHAM BROADHURST wrote:


                                Peter
                                I planned to either do that or weld a bar accross the end depending on whether I coudl spare any length.
                                Graham

                                --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Peter Tollini <pete@tollini. com> wrote:
                                From: Peter Tollini <pete@tollini. com>
                                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                                To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                                Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:55 PM

                                Graham -
                                If you use the dummy post, drill through the bottom so you can insert a bar and give it a twist, then a straight pull once the epoxy has hardened.  It shouldn't be an issue, as Bill says, but the twisting motion is the most effective way to break it loose if it sticks.
                                Pete

                                On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>wrote:
                                Graham
                                 
                                You could certainly make that work, and it has its advantages.  Be extra careful that the alignment will allow the rudder to move without binding on the hull.  You can't change it once it's done.  The dummy tube should be within a 1/32" of the rudder tube diameter.  Using the rudder is a bit of a pain, but I ran a spin halyard through a block on the backstay and then straight down the rudder hole to the top of the rudder post.  With that, it's not too bad to raise, lower, and align using the rudder itself, and you know eveything will fit afterwards.
                                 
                                I will defer to whatever West System says, but I don't think you want to move anything until the epoxy has set, or you will 'waller' the soft epoxy out of round.  With grease on the post and graphite in the mix, it shouldn't stick at all.
                                 
                                Bill B

                                On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                                Bill
                                I have a dummy tube which I was going to use to check the bore as I repaired it. Rudder is a bit heavy to lift in and out. Figured I could grease that up and add a hefty bar to it so I can free it off as the epoxy cures. I have also followed the threads regarding grease fittings and planned to install them as well.
                                Graham

                                --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                                From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                                To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                                Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 2:08 PM

                                Graham
                                West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting epoxy.  You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would do it with the rudder/rudder post in place to serve as the mold with the rudder post well greased and lots of graphite in the epoxy.  You might want to then drop the rudder and drill and tap for a couple of ss zerks to lube the post in the future.  Works like a charm.
                                Bill B

                                On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:49 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                                Bill
                                Thanks for the answer and help
                                I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the crack.
                                I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too much.
                                I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc.  Then try to get one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite and filler to finish the bore.
                                I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder.  It has made the house smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it was splashing that bad.
                                Graham S34 Fearless


                                --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                                From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                                Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                                To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                                Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM


                                Graham,
                                 
                                I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel.  I took it to a good local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem, maybe twenty bucks.
                                 
                                What part is worn oval?  The bearing sleave (The part between the post and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit?  I've had that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
                                 
                                Is the rudder in the boat?
                                 
                                Bill B
                                S38mk1 

                                On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@rogers. com> wrote:
                                Folks
                                I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before 
                                but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last 
                                year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this 
                                motivated me.
                                I have some information to share which some may know already. This is 
                                in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments 
                                are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then 
                                filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the 
                                first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not 
                                the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded 
                                delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a 
                                failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
                                Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at 
                                the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to 
                                check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore. 
                                Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled 
                                to a false post and hope to get it welded.
                                Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says 
                                to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks 
                                easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and 
                                filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my 
                                false post.
                                Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
                                Graham S34-1 Fearless









                              • Leonard Bertaux
                                Question for Bill Blalock: How much clearance below the rudder is necessary on the Sabre 38 to drop the rudder shaft? From the photos it would appear that only
                                Message 15 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
                                  Question for Bill Blalock:

                                  How much clearance below the rudder is necessary on the Sabre 38 to drop the rudder shaft? From the photos it would appear that only a foot or so is needed, is that correct?

                                  Len

                                  On Mar 2, 2009, at 1:07 PM, David Evans wrote:

                                  Fill 'em with grease and twist!
                                  Swing the tiller back and forth and repeat.
                                  dge

                                  > Bill etall
                                  >
                                  > As you seem to be one of the resident Sabre rudder experts I'm hopeful
                                  > you can answer my simple question.
                                  > The rudder on my 38 has two grease cups. I've never run across these
                                  > before. Mine are brass, with a nut at the rudder shaft and a larger
                                  > cup with what appears to be a threaded cap fitted with a knurled edge.
                                  > Zirc fittings I understand but how do these work? Thanks.
                                  >
                                  > Len
                                  >
                                  > On Mar 2, 2009, at 12:02 PM, GRAHAM BROADHURST wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Peter
                                  > I planned to either do that or weld a bar accross the end depending on
                                  > whether I coudl spare any length.
                                  > Graham
                                  >
                                  > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Peter Tollini <pete@tollini. com> wrote:
                                  > From: Peter Tollini <pete@tollini. com>
                                  > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                                  > To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:55 PM
                                  >
                                  > Graham -
                                  > If you use the dummy post, drill through the bottom so you can insert
                                  > a bar and give it a twist, then a straight pull once the epoxy has
                                  > hardened. It shouldn't be an issue, as Bill says, but the twisting
                                  > motion is the most effective way to break it loose if it sticks.
                                  > Pete
                                  >
                                  > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@
                                  > gmail.com>wrote:
                                  > Graham
                                  >
                                  > You could certainly make that work, and it has its advantages. Be
                                  > extra careful that the alignment will allow the rudder to move without
                                  > binding on the hull. You can't change it once it's done. The dummy
                                  > tube should be within a 1/32" of the rudder tube diameter. Using the
                                  > rudder is a bit of a pain, but I ran a spin halyard through a block on
                                  > the backstay and then straight down the rudder hole to the top of the
                                  > rudder post. With that, it's not too bad to raise, lower, and align
                                  > using the rudder itself, and you know eveything will fit afterwards.
                                  >
                                  > I will defer to whatever West System says, but I don't think you want
                                  > to move anything until the epoxy has set, or you will 'waller' the
                                  > soft epoxy out of round. With grease on the post and graphite in the
                                  > mix, it shouldn't stick at all.
                                  >
                                  > Bill B
                                  >
                                  > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversab re@rogers.
                                  > com> wrote:
                                  > Bill
                                  > I have a dummy tube which I was going to use to check the bore as I
                                  > repaired it. Rudder is a bit heavy to lift in and out. Figured I could
                                  > grease that up and add a hefty bar to it so I can free it off as the
                                  > epoxy cures. I have also followed the threads regarding grease
                                  > fittings and planned to install them as well.
                                  > Graham
                                  >
                                  > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                                  > From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                                  > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                                  > To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Received: Monday, March 2, 2009, 2:08 PM
                                  >
                                  > Graham
                                  > West Systems has some good instructions and supplies for injecting
                                  > epoxy. You can buy empty caulk tubes for injecting epoxy, and I would
                                  > do it with the rudder/rudder post in place to serve as the mold with
                                  > the rudder post well greased and lots of graphite in the epoxy. You
                                  > might want to then drop the rudder and drill and tap for a couple of
                                  > ss zerks to lube the post in the future. Works like a charm.
                                  > Bill B
                                  >
                                  > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:49 AM, GRAHAM BROADHURST<doversab re@rogers.
                                  > com> wrote:
                                  > Bill
                                  > Thanks for the answer and help
                                  > I will get the quadrant welded although it seems that not much can go
                                  > wrong with it. Reassembled it certainly seems sturdy even with the
                                  > crack.
                                  > I guess early models were built without bushings. The rudder post/tube
                                  > runs in fibreglass tube. I dont tnink in the past it was greased too
                                  > much.
                                  > I thing I will clean it out to remove the grease etc. Then try to get
                                  > one or two layers of new in the bore then inject with resin, graphite
                                  > and filler to finish the bore.
                                  > I scooped out the gunk from in the rudder. It has made the house
                                  > smell awful. I could have done with wearing our foul weather gear it
                                  > was splashing that bad.
                                  > Graham S34 Fearless
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                                  > From: Bill Blalock <mookiesurfs@ gmail.com>
                                  > Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Rudder and steering
                                  > To: Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Received: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 11:16 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Graham,
                                  >
                                  > I had a similar crack in the quadrant wheel. I took it to a good
                                  > local metal fabricating shop and they welded right up, no problem,
                                  > maybe twenty bucks.
                                  >
                                  > What part is worn oval? The bearing sleave (The part between the post
                                  > and hull), or the hull itself where the sleeve and post fit? I've had
                                  > that area apart before, and a little epoxy may set everything to rights.
                                  >
                                  > Is the rudder in the boat?
                                  >
                                  > Bill B
                                  > S38mk1
                                  >
                                  > On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, graham broadhurst <doversabre@ rogers.
                                  > com> wrote:
                                  > Folks
                                  > I am in process of repairing our rudder. I had intended to do it before
                                  > but never quite got started. However a CS we were travelling with last
                                  > year had his rudder snap off just below the tube in 35 knots and this
                                  > motivated me.
                                  > I have some information to share which some may know already. This is
                                  > in regards to the construction. The rudder post and welded attachments
                                  > are glassed to one side face of the rudder. The whole cavity is then
                                  > filled with putty and foam and then the other side glassed to the
                                  > first. It was purely luck that I chose to cut open the loose side not
                                  > the glassed side. That and the fact when I tapped it one side sounded
                                  > delaminated and was cracked. It seems to me that the chance of such a
                                  > failure on our rudders is somewaht less than on a CS.
                                  > Unfortunately I also found one half of the quadrant wheel is cracked at
                                  > the hub. Edson catalogue says $299 incl machined hub but to call to
                                  > check. Wrong - $299 plus $40 shipping plus $240 for the hub bore.
                                  > Having dealt with them before this was no surprise. I have reassembled
                                  > to a false post and hope to get it welded.
                                  > Lastly the bore for the rudder post is worn oval. Sabre bulletin says
                                  > to add cloth and resin to bore and then clean up to fit. This looks
                                  > easier said then done. Has anybody tried injecting resin, graphite and
                                  > filler into the bore? I thought I could add a very large bar to my
                                  > false post.
                                  > Thoughts and comments on all the above would be appreciated
                                  > Graham S34-1 Fearless
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.