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Re: [SabreSailboat] rigging problem, and shuddering rudder

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  • peter van beckum
    When I bought my last boat I asked why there were holes way up on both sides of the mast. The PO said that when the boat had gotten a new mast they couldn t
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 1, 2007
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      When I bought my last boat I asked why there were holes way up on both sides of the mast.  The PO said that when the boat had gotten a new mast they couldn't make it stand straight.  The riggers were on the verge of adding a second set of spreaders (!) to try and correct the problem when someone discovered that the base of the mast had been cut a little bit crooked.

      They recut the bottom of the mast and the problem was solved.

      Maybe you have a bit of something stuck under one side of the mast base which is throwing things off kilter.

      Peter Van Beckum

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: sid wax <sid_w@...>
      To: Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 12:37:09 AM
      Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] rigging problem, and shuddering rudder

      The other 4 stays all had plenty of room for adjustment,  But the 2 I mentioned were really far out of whack.  As I recall, I didn't try adjusting the uppers, but any adjustment on the other lowers seem like they would either increase the bow or further slacken the port lower.
       
      One thing I did notice, though.  I am not sure whether the PO had a turnbuckle boot on the backstay, but with a boot installed, it interfered with the traveler, which indicates that somehow the rig should be further aft.   I tightened the backstay, but that would even further stretch the forward starboard lower, and that one is so slackened that it is is almost coming apart, and is still tight.
       
      I guess I depended on the riggers to have a clue how to set up the rig.  I'll have to start from scratch, loosen the lowers and get the uppers straightened out first.  The procedure ought to include using the halyards to check the rig for plumb, and then trying to adjust the aft lowers, then the forward lowers.  I'll need more advice on fine tuning, but the rig is so far off now, that I am concerned there may be some more serious problem.
       
      The steering is another issue, and everything I have read says that you really have to tighten the cable, but I wonder if it could be too tight, and binding someplace, and/or maybe it just needs proper lubrication.  The yard guy said he had opened it up to examine the system, but presumably he just gave it a quick look, and I will have to open it up myself and go through the full Edson maintenance procedure.  But boat goes in this week, anyway.

      Carter Brey <cbrey@attglobal. net> wrote:
      Sid,

      what about slackening the port upper and tightening the starboard upper?

      What about the starboard aft lower and port forward lower? Can they be
      respectively loosened and tightened?

      CB

      sid wax wrote:
      > I had my mast stepped today, and a few of the stays seem to be messed
      > up. There seems to be a bit of bow to starboard, and yet the
      > starboard forward lower is as loose as it can be, and the port aft
      > lower is as tight as it can be (actually, the latter is a bit off
      > center, and I could probably get another 1/2" out of it, but I don't
      > think that would do it.
      >
      > My first thought as to a culprit was the mast step, but the backstay
      > seems good and solid (The headstay is non-adjustable roller
      > furling). Another thought was that since I had to remove the bottom
      > casting and of course drill new holes, so that the casting may have
      > moved, and the mast may be askew. I do not know if this problem
      > existed last season, before the mast was pulled, but I do know the
      > boat was quite slow last year.
      >
      > Any help? Boat goes in the water tomorrow. Is there any reason to
      > delay that?
      >
      > Also, I've had the problem of a shuddering in the rudder. A rigger
      > opened up the pedestal and told me the steering was not the culprit,
      > and thought it was in the rudder bearing. However, it doesn't feel
      > like a bearing thing, and besides, since they repaced bhe rusty
      > clamps on the cable the shuddering seems more pronounced. Any clues?
      >
      > Sid
      >





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    • Dave Lochner
      Sid, Once a mast gets any kind of bow in it, its hopeless to try and get it out. Do as Pete suggests, loosen everything, shake it a bit, and let the mast
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 1, 2007
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        Sid,

        Once a mast gets any kind of bow in it, its hopeless to try and get it out.

        Do as Pete suggests, loosen everything, shake it a bit, and let the mast recover and get sort of straight. 

        Then slowly start over again, beginning with the uppers. Tighten the turnbuckles to a loose hand tight and make sure you're still in column. Then tighten one side one turn, then the other side one turn.  Work slowly and check both the tension and the straightness of the mast after every adjustment.

        Dave


        On Jun 1, 2007, at 12:37 AM, sid wax wrote:


        The other 4 stays all had plenty of room for adjustment,  But the 2 I mentioned were really far out of whack.  As I recall, I didn't try adjusting the uppers, but any adjustment on the other lowers seem like they would either increase the bow or further slacken the port lower.
         
        One thing I did notice, though.  I am not sure whether the PO had a turnbuckle boot on the backstay, but with a boot installed, it interfered with the traveler, which indicates that somehow the rig should be further aft.   I tightened the backstay, but that would even further stretch the forward starboard lower, and that one is so slackened that it is is almost coming apart, and is still tight.
         
        I guess I depended on the riggers to have a clue how to set up the rig.  I'll have to start from scratch, loosen the lowers and get the uppers straightened out first.&! nbsp; The procedure ought to include using the halyards to check the rig for plumb, and then trying to adjust the aft lowers, then the forward lowers.  I'll need more advice on fine tuning, but the rig is so far off now, that I am concerned there may be some more serious problem.
         
        The steering is another issue, and everything I have read says that you really have to tighten the cable, but I wonder if it could be too tight, and binding someplace, and/or maybe it just needs proper lubrication.  The yard guy said he had opened it up to examine the system, but presumably he just gave it a quick look, and I will have to open it up myself and go through the full Edson maintenance procedure.  But boat goes in this week, anyway.

        Carter Brey <cbrey@attglobal.net> wrote:
        Sid,

        what about slackening the port upper and tightening the starboard upper?

        What about the starboard aft lower and port forward lower? Can they be
        respectively loosened and tightened?

        CB

        sid wax wrote:
        > I had my mast stepped today, and a few of the stays seem to be messed
        > up. There seems to be a bit of bow to starboard, and yet the
        > starboard forward lower is as loose as it can be, and the port aft
        > lower is as tight as it can be (actually, the latter is a bit off
        > center, and I could probably get another 1/2" out of it, but I don't
        > think that would do it.
        >
        > My first thought as to a culprit was the mast step, but the backstay
        > seems good and solid (The headstay is non-adjustable roller
        > furling). Another thought was that since I had to remove the bottom
        > casting and of course drill new holes, so that the casting may have
        > moved, and the mast may be askew. I do not know if this problem
        > existed last season, before the mast was pulled, but I do know the
        > boat was quite slow last year.
        >
        > Any help? Boat goes in the water tomorrow. Is there any reason to
        > delay that?
        >
        > Also, I've had the problem of a shuddering in the rudder. A rigger
        > opened up the pedestal and told me the steering was not the culprit,
        > and thought it was in the rudder bearing. However, it doesn't feel
        > like a bearing thing, and besides, since they repaced bhe rusty
        > clamps on the cable the shuddering seems more pronounced. Any clues?
        >
        > Sid
        >




      • sid wax
        Don t think the bow is in the mast, because, then the side towards the bow would be loose, not the other side. I did remove the bottom plate. There was just
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 1, 2007
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          Don't think the bow is in the mast, because, then the side towards the bow would be loose, not the other side.  I did remove the bottom plate. There was just one screw, which of course sheered off, and I had to drill another hole.  I did that on the other side, and the mast was sort of a sloppy fit.  Could that amount of misadjustment cause the problem?  Also, if a bow in the mast is the problem, then could it be because they left yhe mast supported all winter just from the two ends?
           
          I'm actually more concerned now with the steering vibration.
           
          Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
          Sid,

          Once a mast gets any kind of bow in it, its hopeless to try and get it out.

          Do as Pete suggests, loosen everything, shake it a bit, and let the mast recover and get sort of straight. 

          Then slowly start over again, beginning with the uppers. Tighten the turnbuckles to a loose hand tight and make sure you're still in column. Then tighten one side one turn, then the other side one turn.  Work slowly and check both the tension and the straightness of the mast after every adjustment.

          Dave


          On Jun 1, 2007, at 12:37 AM, sid wax wrote:


          The other 4 stays all had plenty of room for adjustment,  But the 2 I mentioned were really far out of whack.  As I recall, I didn't try adjusting the uppers, but any adjustment on the other lowers seem like they would either increase the bow or further slacken the port lower.
           
          One thing I did notice, though.  I am not sure whether the PO had a turnbuckle boot  on the backstay, but with a boot installed, it interfered with the traveler, which indicates that somehow the rig should be further aft.   I tightened the backstay, but that would even further stretch the forward starboard lower, and that one is so slackened that it is is almost coming apart, and is still tight.
           
          I guess I depended on the riggers to have a clue how to set up the rig.  I'll have to start from scratch, loosen the lowers and get the uppers straightened out first.&! nbsp; The procedure ought to include using the halyards to check the rig for plumb, and then trying to adjust the aft lowers, then the forward lowers.  I'll need more advice on fine tuning, but the rig is so far off now, that I am concerned there may be some more serious problem.
           
          The steering is another issue, and everything I have read says that you really have to tighten the cable, but I wonder if it could be too tight, and binding someplace, and/or maybe it just needs proper lubrication.  The yard guy said he had opened it up to examine the system, but presumably he just gave it a quick look, and I will have to open it up myself and go through the full Edson maintenance procedure.  But boat goes in this week, anyway.

          Carter Brey <cbrey@attglobal.net> wrote:
          Sid,

          what about slackening the port upper and tightening the starboard upper?

          What about the starboard aft lower and port forward lower? Can they be
          respectively loosened and tightened?

          CB

          sid wax wrote:
          > I had my mast stepped today, and a few of the stays seem to be messed
          > up. There seems to be a bit of bow to starboard, and yet the
          > starboard forward lower is as loose as it can be, and the port aft
          > lower is as tight as it can be (actually, the latter is a bit off
          > center, and I could probably get another 1/2" out of it, but I don't
          > think that would do it.
          >
          > My first thought as to a culprit was the mast step, but the backstay
          > seems good and solid (The headstay is non-adjustable roller
          > furling). Another thought was that since I had to remove the bottom
          > casting and of course drill new holes, so that the casting may have
          > moved, and the mast may be askew. I do not know if this problem
          > existed last season, before the mast was pulled, but I do know the
          > boat was quite slow last year.
          >
          > Any help? Boat goes in the water tomorrow. Is there any reason to
          > delay that?
          >
          > Also, I've had the problem of a shuddering in the rudder. A rigger
          > opened up the pedestal and told me the steering was not the culprit,
          > and thought it was in the rudder bearing. However, it doesn't feel
          > like a bearing thing, and besides, since they repaced bhe rusty
          > clamps on the cable the shuddering seems more pronounced. Any clues?
          >
          > Sid
          >





        • Tom
          Sid Does the shudder happen at the extremes left or right. Mine does but if there is any back pressure the shudder goes away (like when you are sailing). I
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 1, 2007
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            Sid

            Does the shudder happen at the extremes left or right. Mine does but
            if there is any back pressure the shudder goes away (like when you are
            sailing). I replaced the grease in the cups and had the boat yard
            look at it. They said FORGETABOUT it. So I did.

            As for the mast and launching I would not advise you as the
            consequences for a rig failure can be troublesome.

            Tom

            -- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sid wax" <sid_w@...> wrote:
            >
            > I had my mast stepped today, and a few of the stays seem to be messed
            > up. There seems to be a bit of bow to starboard, and yet the
            > starboard forward lower is as loose as it can be, and the port aft
            > lower is as tight as it can be (actually, the latter is a bit off
            > center, and I could probably get another 1/2" out of it, but I don't
            > think that would do it.
            >
            > My first thought as to a culprit was the mast step, but the backstay
            > seems good and solid (The headstay is non-adjustable roller
            > furling). Another thought was that since I had to remove the bottom
            > casting and of course drill new holes, so that the casting may have
            > moved, and the mast may be askew. I do not know if this problem
            > existed last season, before the mast was pulled, but I do know the
            > boat was quite slow last year.
            >
            > Any help? Boat goes in the water tomorrow. Is there any reason to
            > delay that?
            >
            > Also, I've had the problem of a shuddering in the rudder. A rigger
            > opened up the pedestal and told me the steering was not the culprit,
            > and thought it was in the rudder bearing. However, it doesn't feel
            > like a bearing thing, and besides, since they repaced bhe rusty
            > clamps on the cable the shuddering seems more pronounced. Any clues?
            >
            > Sid
            >
          • Dave Lochner
            Sid, In my earlier email, I didn t mean that the mast was no longer useable, rather, that continuing to try and tune it was hopeless, you needed to start from
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 1, 2007
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              Sid,

              In my earlier email, I didn't mean that the mast was no longer useable, rather, that continuing to try and tune it was hopeless, you needed to start from scratch. Any bow in the mast from being stored horizontally, usually comes out quickly once the mast is vertical. 

              If I'm understanding you correctly, the problem is not with the lowers, but the uppers. Look at the turnbuckles, my guess is that the port turnbuckle is tightened up more than the starboard turnbuckle, effectively making the port shroud shorter than the starboard shroud. This would exert pressure on the top of the mast, causing it to fall off to port and pushing the middle of the mast to starboard. This can happen even with equal tension on the shrouds. The solution is to back everything off and give the shrouds a shake or two. Then start over again, tightening equally and slowly. One turn on one side, check the mast to make certain its still in column, then one turn on the other side. Towards the end of the process you may want to do a half turn, check, then another half turn. Keep this up, until you have the right amount of tension (10-15% or so of the breaking strength). The lowers should have just enough tension to keep the rig from falling over, roughly had tight. Forestay and backstay should also be just hand tight, enough to keep the mast standing, but not enough to cause the mast to bend.

              After you get the uppers properly tensioned then it time to do the forward lowers (same process, slow and even) and finally the aft lowers.

              While you're lying on your back sighting up the mast, experiment a bit by pulling on the shrouds and watching the mast bend, you'll get a feel for how little tension it takes to get things out of whack. 

              Selden Masts has a guide that will tell you more than you want to know. You can download it


              I'm not sure what kind of vibration/shudder your getting on the rudder. 

              Dave






              On Jun 1, 2007, at 8:20 AM, sid wax wrote:


              Don't think the bow is in the mast, because, then the side towards the bow would be loose, not the other side.  I did remove the bottom plate. There was just one screw, which of course sheered off, and I had to drill another hole.  I did that on the other side, and the mast was sort of a sloppy fit.  Could that amount of misadjustment cause the problem?  Also, if a bow in the mast is the problem, then could it be because they left yhe mast supported all winter just from the two ends?
               
              I'm actually more concerned now with the steering vibration.
               
              Dave Lochner <davelochner@mac.com> wrote:
              Sid,

              Once a mast gets any kind of bow in it, its ! hopeless to try and get it out.

              Do as Pete suggests, loosen everything, shake it a bit, and let the mast recover and get sort of straight. 

              Then slowly start over again, beginning with the uppers. Tighten the turnbuckles to a loose hand tight and make sure you're still in column. Then tighten one side one turn, then the other side one turn.  Work slowly and check both the tension and the straightness of the mast after every adjustment.

              Dave


              On Jun 1, 2007, at 12:37 AM, sid wax wrote:


              The other 4 stays all had plenty of room for adjustment,  But the 2 I mentioned were really far out of whack.  As I recall, I didn't try adjusting the uppers, but any adjustment on the other lowers seem like they would either increase the ! bow or further slacken the port lower.
               
              One thing I did notice, though.  I am not sure whether the PO had a turnbuckle boot on the backstay, but with a boot installed, it interfered with the traveler, which indicates that somehow the rig should be further aft.   I tightened the backstay, but that would even further stretch the forward starboard lower, and that one is so slackened that it is is almost coming apart, and is still tight.
               
              I guess I depended on the riggers to have a clue how to set up the rig.  I'll have to start from scratch, loosen the lowers and get the uppers straightened out first.&! nbsp; The procedure ought to include using the halyards to check the rig for plumb, and then trying to adjust the aft lowers, then the forward lowers.  I'll need more advice on fine tuning, but the rig is so far off now, that I am concerned there may be some more serious problem.
               
              The steering is another issue, and everything I have read says that you really have to tighten the cable, but I wonder if it could be too tight, and binding someplace, and/or maybe it just needs proper lubrication.  The yard guy said he had opened it up to examine the system, but presumably he just gave it a quick look, and I will have to open it up myself and go through the full Edson maintenance procedure.  But boat goes in this week, anyway.

              Carter Brey <cbrey@attglobal.net> wrote:
              Sid,

              what about slackening the port upper and tightening the starboard upper?

              What about the starboard aft lower and port forward lower? Can they be
              respectively loosened and tightened?

              CB

              sid wax wrote:
              > I had my mast stepped today, and a few of the stays seem to be messed
              > up. There seems to be a bit of bow to starboard, and yet the
              > starboard forward lower is as loose as it can be, and the port aft
              > lower is as tight as it can be (actually, the latter is a bit off
              > center, and I could probably get another 1/2" out of it, but I don't
              > think that would do it.
              >
              > My first thought as to a culprit was the mast step, but the backstay
              > seems good and solid (The headstay is non-adjustable roller
              > furling). Another thought was that since I had to remove the bottom
              > casting and of course drill new holes, so that the casting may have
              > moved, and the mast may be askew. I do not know if this problem
              > existed last season, before the mast was pulled, but I do know the
              > boat was quite slow last year.
              >
              > Any help? Boat goes in the water tomorrow. Is there any reason to
              > delay that?
              >
              > Also, I've had the problem of a shuddering in the rudder. A rigger
              > opened up the pedestal and told me the steering was not the culprit,
              > and thought it was in the rudder bearing. However, it doesn't feel
              > like a bearing thing, and besides, since they repaced bhe rusty
              > clamps on the cable the shuddering seems more pronounced. Any clues?
              >
              > Sid
              >







            • Dan Trainor
              Is mast straight but tilted to starboard or bending to starboard. If bending, where does the bend occur along the mast - looking up the mast sail track? ...
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 1, 2007
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                Is mast straight but "tilted" to starboard or bending to starboard.  If bending, where does the bend occur along the mast - looking up the mast sail track? 

                On 5/31/07, sid wax <sid_w@...> wrote:

                I had my mast stepped today, and a few of the stays seem to be messed
                up. There seems to be a bit of bow to starboard, and yet the
                starboard forward lower is as loose as it can be, and the port aft
                lower is as tight as it can be (actually, the latter is a bit off
                center, and I could probably get another 1/2" out of it, but I don't
                think that would do it.

                My first thought as to a culprit was the mast step, but the backstay
                seems good and solid (The headstay is non-adjustable roller
                furling). Another thought was that since I had to remove the bottom
                casting and of course drill new holes, so that the casting may have
                moved, and the mast may be askew. I do not know if this problem
                existed last season, before the mast was pulled, but I do know the
                boat was quite slow last year.

                Any help? Boat goes in the water tomorrow. Is there any reason to
                delay that?

                Also, I've had the problem of a shuddering in the rudder. A rigger
                opened up the pedestal and told me the steering was not the culprit,
                and thought it was in the rudder bearing. However, it doesn't feel
                like a bearing thing, and besides, since they repaced bhe rusty
                clamps on the cable the shuddering seems more pronounced. Any clues?

                Sid




                --
                Dan
              • sid wax
                Strangely, both of these problems seem to have gone away, at least up to now, and the BOAT IS IN THE WATER. The riggers got the rig straight, and there were
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 1, 2007
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                  Strangely, both of these problems seem to have gone away, at least up to now, and the BOAT IS IN THE WATER.  The riggers got the rig straight, and there were indeed a few turns available to tighten the port aft lowers after the turnbuckle got evened out top and bottom/  The rig is now pretty snug (except for the forward lowers, those are a bit soft without any load). and there are two turns to spare.  They locked up all of the settings with cotter pins, so I probably won't do much fiddling for a while.
                   
                  As for the steering, the yard folks were insisting that the issue was a rudder bearing, and that it was not worth dealing with it, and that everything would be ok when the boat was in the water with back pressure on the rudder (like you pointed out, Tom), and that it was more important that the steering was tight.  Sure enough, with the boat in the water, at the dock, I can't even feel ther shudder.  I don't know what will happen dureing normal sailing or motoring,
                   
                  Incidentally, all my agida was made a bit worse te other day when I found out that my account manager (the guy I had dealt with all winter) was suddenly no longer woirking for the company.  The good news is that he was a useless PITA who would not return phone calls or attend scheduled meeitngs, and will not be missed.  The better news is that my account got transfered to the service manager, who was a bit more professional than the other guy, though there are still a few communication issues,
                   
                  Tom <tjw@...> wrote:
                  Sid

                  Does the shudder happen at the extremes left or right. Mine does but
                  if there is any back pressure the shudder goes away (like when you are
                  sailing). I replaced the grease in the cups and had the boat yard
                  look at it. They said FORGETABOUT it. So I did.

                  As for the mast and launching I would not advise you as the
                  consequences for a rig failure can be troublesome.

                  Tom

                  -- In Sabresailboat@ yahoogroups. com, "sid wax" <sid_w@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I had my mast stepped today, and a few of the stays seem to be messed
                  > up. There seems to be a bit of bow to starboard, and yet the
                  > starboard forward lower is as loose as it can be, and the port aft
                  > lower is as tight as it can be (actually, the latter is a bit off
                  > center, and I could probably get another 1/2" out of it, but I don't
                  > think that would do it.
                  >
                  > My first thought as to a culprit was the mast step, but the backstay
                  > seems good and solid (The headstay is non-adjustable roller
                  > furling). Another thought was that since I had to remove the bottom
                  > casting and of course drill new holes, so that the casting may have
                  > moved, and the mast may be askew. I do not know if this problem
                  > existed last season, before the mast was pulled, but I do know the
                  > boat was quite slow last year.
                  >
                  > Any help? Boat goes in the water tomorrow. Is there any reason to
                  > delay that?
                  >
                  > Also, I've had the problem of a shuddering in the rudder. A rigger
                  > opened up the pedestal and told me the steering was not the culprit,
                  > and thought it was in the rudder bearing. However, it doesn't feel
                  > like a bearing thing, and besides, since they repaced bhe rusty
                  > clamps on the cable the shuddering seems more pronounced. Any clues?
                  >
                  > Sid
                  >


                • Dave Lochner
                  Sid, I m confused.... An account manager at a marina?? Thought they only came with 401(k s). Dave
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 2, 2007
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                    Sid,

                    I'm confused....

                    An account manager at a marina?? Thought they only came with 401(k's).

                    Dave


                    On Jun 1, 2007, at 11:28 PM, sid wax wrote:


                    Strangely, both of these problems seem to have gone away, at least up to now, and the BOAT IS IN THE WATER.  The riggers got the rig straight, and there were indeed a few turns available to tighten the port aft lowers after the turnbuckle got evened out top and bottom/  The rig is now pretty snug (except for the forward lowers, those are a bit soft without any load). and there are two turns to spare.  They locked up all of the settings with cotter pins, so I probably won't do much fiddling for a while.
                     
                    As for the steering, the yard folks were insisting that the issue was a rudder bearing, and that it was not worth dealing with it, and that everything would be ok when the boat was in the water with back pressure on the rudder (like you pointed out, Tom), and that it was more important that the steering was tight.  Sure enough, with the boat in the water, at the dock, I can't even feel ther shudder! .  I don't know what will happen dureing normal sailing or motoring,
                     
                    Incidentally, all my agida was made a bit worse te other day when I found out that my account manager (the guy I had dealt with all winter) was suddenly no longer woirking for the company.  The good news is that he was a useless PITA who would not return phone calls or attend scheduled meeitngs, and will not be missed.  The better news is that my account got transfered to the service manager, who was a bit more professional than the other guy, though there are still a few communication issues,
                     
                    Tom <tjw@...> wrote:
                    Sid

                    Does the shudder happen at the extremes left or right. Mine does but
                    if there is any back pressure the shudder goes away (like when you are
                    sailing). I repla! ced the grease in the cups and had the boat yard
                    look at it. They said FORGETABOUT it. So I did.

                    As for the mast and launching I would not advise you as the
                    consequences for a rig failure can be troublesome.

                    Tom

                    -- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sid wax" <sid_w@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I had my mast stepped today, and a few of the stays seem to be messed
                    > up. There seems to be a bit of bow to starboard, and yet the
                    > starboard forward lower is as loose as it can be, and the port aft
                    > lower is as tight as it can be (actually, the latter is a bit off
                    > center, and I could probably get another 1/2" out of it, but I don't
                    > think that would do it.
                    >
                    > My first thought as to a culprit was the mast step, but the backstay
                    > seems good and solid (The headstay is non-adjustable roller
                    > furling). Another thought was that since I had to remove the bottom
                    > casting and of course drill new holes, so that the casting may have
                    > moved, and the mast may be askew. I do not know if this problem
                    > existed last season, before the mast was pulled, but I do know the
                    > boat was quite slow last year.
                    >
                    > Any help? Boat goes in the water tomorrow. Is there any reason to
                    > delay that?
                    >
                    > Also, I've had the problem of a shuddering in the rudder. A rigger
                    > opened up the pedestal and told me the steering was not the culprit,
                    > and thought it was in the rudder bearing. However, it doesn't feel
                    > like a bearing thing, and besides, since they repaced bhe rusty
                    > clamps on the cable the shuddering seems more pronounced. Any clues?
                    >
                    > Sid
                    >




                  • sid wax
                    Actually, I think he was called a project manager, but he only managed to annoy. Dave Lochner wrote: Sid, I m confused.... An account
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 2, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Actually, I think he was called a project manager, but he only managed to annoy.

                      Dave Lochner <davelochner@...> wrote:
                      Sid,

                      I'm confused....

                      An account manager at a marina?? Thought they only came with 401(k's).

                      Dave


                      On Jun 1, 2007, at 11:28 PM, sid wax wrote:


                      Strangely, both of these problems seem to have gone away, at least up to now, and the BOAT IS IN THE WATER.  The riggers got the rig straight, and there were indeed a few turns available to tighten the port aft lowers after the turnbuckle got evened out top and bottom/  The rig is now pretty snug (except for the forward lowers, those are a bit soft without any load). and there are two turns to spare.  They locked up all of the settings with cotter pins, so I probably won't do much fiddling for a while.
                       
                      As for the steering, the yard folks were insisting that the issue was a rudder bearing, and that it was not worth dealing with it, and that everything would be ok when the boat was in the water with back pressure on the rudder (like you pointed out, Tom), and that it was more important that the steering was tight.  Sure enough, with the boat in the water, at the dock, I can't even feel ther shudder! .  I don't know what will happen dureing normal sailing or motoring,
                       
                      Incidentally, all my agida was made a bit worse te other day when I found out that my account manager (the guy I had dealt with all winter) was suddenly no longer woirking for the company.  The good news is that he was a useless PITA who would not return phone calls or attend scheduled meeitngs, and will not be missed.  The better news is that my account got transfered to the service manager, who was a bit more professional than the other guy, though there are still a few communication issues,

                      Tom <tjw@...> wrote:
                      Sid

                      Does the shudder happen at the extremes left or right. Mine does but
                      if there is any back pressure the shudder goes away (like when you are
                      sailing). I repla! ced the grease in the cups and had the boat yard
                      look at it. They said FORGETABOUT it. So I did.

                      As for the mast and launching I would not advise you as the
                      consequences for a rig failure can be troublesome.

                      Tom

                      -- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sid wax" <sid_w@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I had my mast stepped today, and a few of the stays seem to be messed
                      > up. There seems to be a bit of bow to starboard, and yet the
                      > starboard forward lower is as loose as it can be, and the port aft
                      > lower is as tight as it can be (actually, the latter is a bit off
                      > center, and I could probably get another 1/2" out of it, but I don't
                      > think that would do it.
                      >
                      > My first thought as to a culprit was the mast step, but the backstay
                      > seems good and solid (The headstay is non-adjustable roller
                      > furling). Another thought was that since I had to remove the bottom
                      > casting and of course drill new holes, so that the casting may have
                      > moved, and the mast may be askew. I do not know if this problem
                      > existed last season, before the mast was pulled, but I do know the
                      > boat was quite slow last year.
                      >
                      > Any help? Boat goes in the water tomorrow. Is there any reason to
                      > delay that?
                      >
                      > Also, I've had the problem of a shuddering in the rudder. A rigger
                      > opened up the pedestal and told me the steering was not the culprit,
                      > and thought it was in the rudder bearing. However, it doesn't feel
                      > like a bearing thing, and besides, since they repaced bhe rusty
                      > clamps on the cable the shuddering seems more pronounced. Any clues?
                      >
                      > Sid
                      >





                    • Dave Lochner
                      As I read comments about dealing with marinas, I come to realize that I sail in a completely different world. If I asked my marina to do any work on my boat,
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 3, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        As I read comments about dealing with marinas, I come to realize that I sail in a completely different world.  If I asked my marina to do any work on my boat, they'd look at me funny. And they don't like stepping the mast unless you're right there working with them. Finding a rigger to tune a mast? The nearest one is maybe 75 miles away, maybe. Oswego is very much a DIY marina.

                        Dave



                        On Jun 3, 2007, at 12:54 AM, sid wax wrote:


                        Actually, I think he was called a project manager, but he only managed to annoy.

                        Dave Lochner <davelochner@mac.com> wrote:
                        Sid,

                        I'm confused....

                        An account manager at a marina?? Thought they only came with 401(k's).

                        Dave


                        On Jun 1, 2007, at 11:28 PM, sid wax wrote:


                        Strangely, both of these problems seem to have gone away, at least up to now, and the BOAT IS IN THE WATER.  The riggers got the rig straight, and there were indeed a few turns available to tighten the port aft lowers after the turnbuckle got evened out top and bottom/  The rig is now pretty snug (except for the forward lowers, those are a bit soft without any load). and there are two turns to spare.  They locked up all of the settings with cotter pins, so I probably won't do much fiddling for a while.
                         
                        As for the steering, the yard folks were insisting that the issue was a rudder bearing, and that it was not worth dealing with it, and that everything would be ok when the boat was in the water with back pressure on the rudder (like you pointed out, Tom), and that it was more important that the steering was tight.  Sure enough, with the boat in the water, at the dock, I can't even feel ther shudder! .  I don't know what will happen dureing normal sailing or motoring,
                         
                        Incidentally, all my agida was made a bit worse te other day when I found out that my account manager (the guy I had dealt with all winter) was suddenly no longer woirking for the company.  The good news is that he was a useless PITA who would not return phone calls or attend scheduled meeitngs, and will not be missed.  The better news is that my account got transfered to the service manager, who was a bit more professional than the other guy, though there are still a few communication issues,

                        Tom <tjw@...> wrote:
                        Sid

                        Does the shudder happen at the extremes left or right. Mine does but
                        if there is any back pressure the shudder goes away (like when you are
                        sailing). I repla! ced the grease in the cups and had the boat yard
                        look at it. They said FORGETABOUT it. So I did.

                        As for the mast and launching I would not advise you as the
                        consequences for a rig failure can be troublesome.

                        Tom

                        -- In Sabresailboat@yahoogroups.com, "sid wax" <sid_w@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I had my mast stepped today, and a few of the stays seem to be messed
                        > up. There seems to be a bit of bow to starboard, and yet the
                        > starboard forward lower is as loose as it can be, and the port aft
                        > lower is as tight as it can be (actual! ly, the latter is a bit off
                        > center, and I could probably get another 1/2" out of it, but I don't
                        > think that would do it.
                        >
                        > My first thought as to a culprit was the mast step, but the backstay
                        > seems good and solid (The headstay is non-adjustable roller
                        > furling). Another thought was that since I had to remove the bottom
                        > casting and of course drill new holes, so that the casting may have
                        > moved, and the mast may be askew. I do not know if this problem
                        > existed last season, before the mast was pulled, but I do know the
                        > boat was quite slow last year.
                        >
                        > Any help? Boat goes in the water tomorrow. Is there any reason to
                        > delay that?
                        >
                        > Also, I've had the problem of a shuddering in the rudder. A rigger
                        > opened up the pedestal and told me the steering was not the cul! prit,
                        > and thought it was in the rudder bearing. However, it doesn't feel
                        > like a bearing thing, and besides, since they repaced bhe rusty
                        > clamps on the cable the shuddering seems more pronounced. Any clues?
                        >
                        > Sid
                        >







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