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Re: [SORForum] Re: Jesus is a Jew

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  • Steve Dennehy
    Davide, Jesus is a Jew, Jesus is a man--God as man and will always be a man, a Divine man. Otherwise you end up denying the Incarnation. What is not
    Message 1 of 14 , May 2, 2004
      Davide,
      Jesus is a Jew, Jesus is a man--God as man and will
      always be a man, a Divine man. Otherwise you end up
      denying the Incarnation. "What is not assumed is not
      redeemed" (I think it was St. Athanasius who said
      that.). God the Son did not becaome man, then
      transcend being a man, cease being a man. He restored
      His human nature to a pre-fallen state in His glorious
      resurrection, restoring our human nature in His. He
      ascended into the Father, deifying His human nature
      and deifying our human nature in His. In the
      Ascension His human nature becomes Divine, it does not
      cease to exist.
      In Yeshua, the Divine Jew,
      Steve
      --- D�vide Siv�ro <davidetamara@...> wrote:
      > Jesus was not and is not a Jew! He was incarnated
      > as a Jewish man
      >
      > -I meant that.
      >
      > > Moreover, the Gospels were written in Greek, not
      > Hebrew
      >
      > -Lots of scholars say that at least Mor Mattay's
      > Gospel was written
      > either in Aramaic or Hebrew, isn't that true? Anyhow
      > I think it isn't
      > a matter of dogma...
      > The Greek Orthodox tradition says that the Aramaic
      > or Hebrew parts of
      > the New Testament were immediately translated into
      > Greek under the
      > guidance of the Ru'ho Qadisho.
      > BaMshi'ho,
      > Davide
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      >
      > ----------
      > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
      > to anger."
      > (James 1:19)
      > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >





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    • Thomas P
      I think this forum should encourage messages related to Syriac resources and Orthodox church in general. Issues about ethnicity etc. can be discussed on other
      Message 2 of 14 , May 3, 2004
        I think this forum should encourage messages related to Syriac
        resources and Orthodox church in general. Issues about ethnicity etc.
        can be discussed on other relevant forums.

        - Thomas
      • Steve Dennehy
        Edward, Jesus, from His conception in an egg in the womb of the All-Holy Virgin Miriam is Spirit-Soul-Body, as are all human persons. His Spirit is His Person,
        Message 3 of 14 , May 3, 2004
          Edward,
          Jesus, from His conception in an egg in the womb of
          the All-Holy Virgin Miriam is Spirit-Soul-Body, as are
          all human persons.
          His Spirit is His Person, His "I" (God the
          Son/Word/Image), eternal and Divine.
          His Soul is perfect universal, but at the same time
          is unique and individual.
          His Body is male and ethnically Jewish Semitic
          Caucasian.
          He is One Lord Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ).

          You state this correctly when you say He is a single
          hypostasis (Person).

          Your statement that"He never actually became a Jewish
          man, He just assumed the role of one for the purpose
          of establishing the Kingdom of God..." strikes me as
          Nestorian and Gnostic. You seem to be denying the
          Incarnation altogether. I don't undertsand how you
          could read St. Athanasius and come to that conclusion.

          The tradition in the Church from ancient times is that
          the Gospels are arranged in chronological order, in
          the order in which they were written. The Tradition
          is that Mathew's was addressed to the Aramaic-Syriac
          speaking Jewish and Syrian Christians, Luke to the
          Greek speaking Christians and Mark to the Latin
          speaking Christians.

          It is always a mistake to subvert theology to
          philosophy. It is always a mistake to subvert God to
          theology. Dogmas are boundaries; they tell us where
          to go, where not to go. But dogmas are not God,
          statements about God are not God. ONLY GOD IS GOD.
          God is Father-Jesus-Spirit, One in Essence and
          undivided.
          In Him,
          Steve
          --- Edward Moore <emoore@...> wrote:
          >
          > Steve,
          >
          > > God the Son became man, He became a Jewish man.
          > His
          > > Person is God the Son but he has a human nature-
          > male
          > > and Jewish Semitic Caucasian .
          >
          > This statement is theologically unsound. The
          > Orthodox Church Fathers
          > unanimously hold that Christ was a single person
          > (hupostasis) possessing two
          > natures, divine and human. His human nature was not
          > the specific,
          > individual nature of a single man; rather, as
          > God-man, the New Adam, Christ
          > united the totality of human nature with divinity in
          > His single hupostasis.
          > You are, of course, correct that the God-man existed
          > in the 'person'
          > (prosopon) of a Jewish man at a particular time in
          > history, but as St.
          > Athanasius affirms (in his De incarnatione), He
          > never stopped functioning as
          > the Logos holding the universe together by the power
          > of His divine will. We
          > know from the New Testament that Christ unites all
          > of humanity in His
          > person, so that we are no longer able to make
          > distinctions between Jew and
          > Greek (Gentile), male and female, slave and free,
          > etc. Further, as the
          > Epistle to the Hebrews tells us, Christ is eternally
          > the same. He never
          > actually became a Jewish man; He simply assumed the
          > role of one for the
          > purpose of establishing the Kingdom of God and the
          > New Coveneant in a manner
          > that transcends ethnic division. This He could not
          > have accomplished, I
          > posit, if He did not possess the totality of human
          > nature -- including Jews
          > but all other races as well -- in His person.
          >
          > Perhaps we will understand each other better if we
          > invoke the ancient
          > Sophistic distinction between nature (phusis) and
          > convention (nomos). Can
          > we agree that Christ was a Jew by covnention, but
          > not by nature?
          >
          > > The first Gospel to be written was Mathew which
          > was
          > > written in Aranmaic Syrian as it was addressed to
          > > Aramaic speaking Syrian and Jewish Christians.
          >
          > This is incorrect. The first Gospel to be written
          > was Mark, and the
          > language of composition was Greek. I know of no
          > archaeological or
          > manuscript evidence supporting the theory that the
          > Gospels were originally
          > composed in Aramaic, or any other language but
          > Greek. Cf. Paul N. Tarazi,
          > _The New Testament: Introduction_, vol. 1, Paul and
          > Mark (Crestwood, NY: St.
          > Vladimir's Seminary Press 1999). On the original
          > language of the Gospels
          > consult the various studies by Jaroslav Pelikan, for
          > example.
          >
          > That said, as an editor of the Orthodox journal
          > _Theandros_, I invite you,
          > Steve, or anyone interested to submit an article
          > arguing in favor of a
          > theory of original Aramaic composition. Please see
          > the link in my signature
          > for information on submitting, should you be so
          > inclined.
          >
          > In Christ,
          >
          > Edward
          >
          > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          > Edward Moore, S.T.L., Ph.D. (candidate)
          > St. Elias School of Orthodox Theology
          > E-mail: emoore@...
          > Homepage: www.theandros.com/emoore
          >
          > Theandros: An Online Journal of
          > Orthodox Christian Theology and
          > Philosophy
          > www.theandros.com
          > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >
          > ----------
          > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
          > to anger."
          > (James 1:19)
          > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >





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        • Steve Dennehy
          Thomas, We are not discussing ethnicity, we are discussing the Person of Lord Jesus Christ--the point of the Syrian Orthodox Church and of any believing
          Message 4 of 14 , May 8, 2004
            Thomas,

            We are not discussing ethnicity, we are discussing the
            Person of Lord Jesus Christ--the point of the Syrian
            Orthodox Church and of any believing Christian.
            Steve
            --- Thomas P <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:
            > I think this forum should encourage messages related
            > to Syriac
            > resources and Orthodox church in general. Issues
            > about ethnicity etc.
            > can be discussed on other relevant forums.
            >
            > - Thomas
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >
            > ----------
            > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
            > to anger."
            > (James 1:19)
            > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >





            __________________________________
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          • Rajesh George
            Dear Brothers in Christ Do you feel that the most important aspect about our life is we need to inherit the kingdom of GOD? We need to enjoy the LOVE of Jesus
            Message 5 of 14 , May 10, 2004

              Dear Brothers in Christ

                          Do you feel that the most important aspect about our life is we need to inherit the kingdom of GOD ?  We need to enjoy the LOVE of Jesus in our practical lifes.

              That’s is most important for us than about the theological aspects  of  our Lord.

               

              Thanks for all

               


              From: Steve Dennehy [mailto:svjd@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 5:25 AM
              To: SOR-Forum@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [SORForum] Jesus is a Jew

               

              Edward,
              Jesus, from His conception in an egg in the womb of
              the All-Holy Virgin Miriam is Spirit-Soul-Body, as are
              all human persons.
              His Spirit is His Person, His "I" (God the
              Son/Word/Image), eternal and Divine.
              His Soul is  perfect universal, but at the same time
              is unique and individual.
              His Body is male and ethnically Jewish Semitic
              Caucasian.
              He is One Lord Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ).

              You state this correctly when you say He is a single
              hypostasis (Person).

              Your statement that"He never actually became a Jewish
              man, He just assumed the role of one for the purpose
              of establishing the Kingdom of God ..."   strikes me as
              Nestorian and Gnostic.  You seem to be denying the
              Incarnation altogether.  I don't undertsand how you
              could read St. Athanasius and come to that conclusion.

              The tradition in the Church from ancient times is that
              the Gospels are arranged in chronological order, in
              the order in which they were written.  The Tradition
              is that Mathew's was addressed to the Aramaic-Syriac
              speaking Jewish and Syrian Christians, Luke to the
              Greek speaking Christians and Mark to the Latin
              speaking Christians.

              It is always a mistake to subvert theology to
              philosophy.  It is always a mistake to subvert God to
              theology.  Dogmas are boundaries; they tell us where
              to go, where not to go. But dogmas are not God,
              statements about God are not God. ONLY GOD IS GOD.
              God is Father-Jesus-Spirit, One in Essence and
              undivided.
              In Him,
              Steve
              --- Edward Moore <emoore@...> wrote:
              >
              > Steve,
              >
              > > God the Son became man, He became a Jewish man.
              > His
              > > Person is God the Son but he has a human nature-
              > male
              > > and  Jewish Semitic Caucasian .
              >
              > This statement is theologically unsound.  The
              > Orthodox Church Fathers
              > unanimously hold that Christ was a single person
              > (hupostasis) possessing two
              > natures, divine and human.  His human nature was not
              > the specific,
              > individual nature of a single man; rather, as
              > God-man, the New Adam, Christ
              > united the totality of human nature with divinity in
              > His single hupostasis.
              > You are, of course, correct that the God-man existed
              > in the 'person'
              > (prosopon) of a Jewish man at a particular time in
              > history, but as St.
              > Athanasius affirms (in his De incarnatione), He
              > never stopped functioning as
              > the Logos holding the universe together by the power
              > of His divine will.  We
              > know from the New Testament that Christ unites all
              > of humanity in His
              > person, so that we are no longer able to make
              > distinctions between Jew and
              > Greek (Gentile), male and female, slave and free,
              > etc.  Further, as the
              > Epistle to the Hebrews tells us, Christ is eternally
              > the same.  He never
              > actually became a Jewish man; He simply assumed the
              > role of one for the
              > purpose of establishing the Kingdom of God and the
              > New Coveneant in a manner
              > that transcends ethnic division.  This He could not
              > have accomplished, I
              > posit, if He did not possess the totality of human
              > nature -- including Jews
              > but all other races as well -- in His person.
              >
              > Perhaps we will understand each other better if we
              > invoke the ancient
              > Sophistic distinction between nature (phusis) and
              > convention (nomos).  Can
              > we agree that Christ was a Jew by covnention, but
              > not by nature?
              >
              > > The first Gospel to be written was Mathew which
              > was
              > > written in Aranmaic Syrian as it was addressed to
              > > Aramaic speaking Syrian and Jewish Christians.
              >
              > This is incorrect.  The first Gospel to be written
              > was Mark, and the
              > language of composition was Greek.  I know of no
              > archaeological or
              > manuscript evidence supporting the theory that the
              > Gospels were originally
              > composed in Aramaic, or any other language but
              > Greek.  Cf. Paul N. Tarazi,
              > _The New Testament: Introduction_, vol. 1, Paul and
              > Mark ( Crestwood , NY : St.
              > Vladimir 's Seminary Press 1999).  On the original
              > language of the Gospels
              > consult the various studies by Jaroslav Pelikan, for
              > example.
              >
              > That said, as an editor of the Orthodox journal
              > _Theandros_, I invite you,
              > Steve, or anyone interested to submit an article
              > arguing in favor of a
              > theory of original Aramaic composition.  Please see
              > the link in my signature
              > for information on submitting, should you be so
              > inclined.
              >
              > In Christ,
              >
              > Edward
              >
              > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              > Edward Moore, S.T.L., Ph.D. (candidate)
              > St. Elias School of Orthodox Theology
              > E-mail: emoore@...
              > Homepage: www.theandros.com/emoore
              >
              > Theandros: An Online Journal of
              > Orthodox Christian Theology and
              > Philosophy
              > www.theandros.com
              > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              > ----------
              > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
              > to anger."
              > (James 1:19)
              > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >      SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >

              >



                   
                         
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              ----------
              "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger."
              (James 1:19)
              Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu




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