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Re: [SORForum] Jesus is a Jew

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  • Edward Moore
    Steve, ... This statement is theologically unsound. The Orthodox Church Fathers unanimously hold that Christ was a single person (hupostasis) possessing two
    Message 1 of 14 , May 1, 2004
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      Steve,

      > God the Son became man, He became a Jewish man. His
      > Person is God the Son but he has a human nature- male
      > and Jewish Semitic Caucasian .

      This statement is theologically unsound. The Orthodox Church Fathers
      unanimously hold that Christ was a single person (hupostasis) possessing two
      natures, divine and human. His human nature was not the specific,
      individual nature of a single man; rather, as God-man, the New Adam, Christ
      united the totality of human nature with divinity in His single hupostasis.
      You are, of course, correct that the God-man existed in the 'person'
      (prosopon) of a Jewish man at a particular time in history, but as St.
      Athanasius affirms (in his De incarnatione), He never stopped functioning as
      the Logos holding the universe together by the power of His divine will. We
      know from the New Testament that Christ unites all of humanity in His
      person, so that we are no longer able to make distinctions between Jew and
      Greek (Gentile), male and female, slave and free, etc. Further, as the
      Epistle to the Hebrews tells us, Christ is eternally the same. He never
      actually became a Jewish man; He simply assumed the role of one for the
      purpose of establishing the Kingdom of God and the New Coveneant in a manner
      that transcends ethnic division. This He could not have accomplished, I
      posit, if He did not possess the totality of human nature -- including Jews
      but all other races as well -- in His person.

      Perhaps we will understand each other better if we invoke the ancient
      Sophistic distinction between nature (phusis) and convention (nomos). Can
      we agree that Christ was a Jew by covnention, but not by nature?

      > The first Gospel to be written was Mathew which was
      > written in Aranmaic Syrian as it was addressed to
      > Aramaic speaking Syrian and Jewish Christians.

      This is incorrect. The first Gospel to be written was Mark, and the
      language of composition was Greek. I know of no archaeological or
      manuscript evidence supporting the theory that the Gospels were originally
      composed in Aramaic, or any other language but Greek. Cf. Paul N. Tarazi,
      _The New Testament: Introduction_, vol. 1, Paul and Mark (Crestwood, NY: St.
      Vladimir's Seminary Press 1999). On the original language of the Gospels
      consult the various studies by Jaroslav Pelikan, for example.

      That said, as an editor of the Orthodox journal _Theandros_, I invite you,
      Steve, or anyone interested to submit an article arguing in favor of a
      theory of original Aramaic composition. Please see the link in my signature
      for information on submitting, should you be so inclined.

      In Christ,

      Edward

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      Edward Moore, S.T.L., Ph.D. (candidate)
      St. Elias School of Orthodox Theology
      E-mail: emoore@...
      Homepage: www.theandros.com/emoore

      Theandros: An Online Journal of
      Orthodox Christian Theology and
      Philosophy
      www.theandros.com
      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    • Edward Moore
      Davide, You wrote: I suspect that our dear friend and brother in Christ Steve unproperly mixed hate against the Jews, hate against the Americans, hate against
      Message 2 of 14 , May 1, 2004
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        Davide,

        You wrote:

        "I suspect that our dear friend and brother in Christ Steve unproperly
        mixed hate against the Jews, hate against the Americans, hate against
        current American politics, hate against Israeli politics, hate
        against the death of innocent Arab people etc., but I wanted to share
        with him the thought that the Jews, as well as deserving the utmost
        respect as every other people created by God, can't be hated by any
        Christian who believes that God chose to incarnate as a Jewish man."

        "Hate" is a strong word, and I would be slow to accuse anyone of hatred,
        especially someone like Steve, whom I know only through my limited contact
        with him on this list -- which is to say I don't know him at all. E-mail
        forums are notoriously conducive to mis-understanding, and so I always try
        to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

        That said, I certainly agree with you: hatred is not to be tolerated by
        Christians, against anyone. However, we are permitted righteous
        indignation. And I am personally indignant over current Israeli policies,
        as well as the policies of the administration of my country, the United
        States. Indignation is an intellectual comportment; hatred is the reaction
        of the ignorant. Steve is certainly not ignorant, so let us speak of his --
        and my own (assuming I can be spared the label of ignoramus) -- indignation.

        In Christ,

        Edward
      • Steve Dennehy
        Davide, Wasn t Clement of Alexandria an Egyptian who wrote in Greek ? Greek was the language used to transmit the New Testament and was the main language used
        Message 3 of 14 , May 2, 2004
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          Davide,

          Wasn't Clement of Alexandria an Egyptian who wrote in
          Greek ? Greek was the language used to transmit the
          New Testament and was the main language used by the
          Fathers of the Church up to about 800 for the
          non-Greeks.
          Most Greeks are not Christians; the rate of practise
          among Greek nominal Christians is about 1/3 in Geece
          and the diaspora. Greece like almost all of Europe is
          an ex-Christian nation which legalized the murder of
          the human person in the womb by abortion in 1983.

          I have read a great deal in the Fathers for the past
          26 years, though I'm certainly no expert on the
          Fathers. I like to read all of them-Jewish, Syrian,
          Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Armenian, Ethiopian, Persian,
          Indian, Georgian, Irish, Spanish, etc. The Church of
          Our Lord Yshua Messiah is universal and contains
          members of every nation, race and tongue on the globe.
          In Trinity, our God,
          Steve
          --- D�vide Siv�ro <davidetamara@...> wrote:
          > I strongly suggest that Messrs. Dennehy and Siv�ro
          > spend some time
          > studying the work of the Greek Fathers, who were
          > well-acquainted with
          > the philosophies of Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, etc.
          >
          > -I didn't reflected before now on these words, dear
          > brother in
          > Christ. Plato, Aristotle and Plotinus weren't
          > Christians at all, they
          > were Pagans, but, of course, a Pagan can have a
          > valid thought. St.
          > Augustine said that the Greeks had been given reason
          > by the Lord,
          > while the Jews had been given the Torah, the
          > Revelation (which
          > definitely is more important).
          >
          > It is the Greeks, not the Hebrews, who are the true
          > spiritual
          > forebears of Christianity, as St. Clement of
          > Alexandria, for example,
          > adequately attests.
          >
          > -Yes, it's very clear that most Jews didn't believe
          > in Christ, while
          > most Greeks do. Of course this doesn't contraddict
          > at all the fact
          > that there is NO difference before God between one
          > people and another
          > people, between Jews, Greeks, Syrians or anybody
          > else.
          > I suspect that our dear friend and brother in Christ
          > Steve unproperly
          > mixed hate against the Jews, hate against the
          > Americans, hate against
          > current American politics, hate against Israeli
          > politics, hate
          > against the death of innocent Arab people etc., but
          > I wanted to share
          > with him the thought that the Jews, as well as
          > deserving the utmost
          > respect as every other people created by God, can't
          > be hated by any
          > Christian who believes that God chose to incarnate
          > as a Jewish man.
          > BaMshi'ho,
          > Davide
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----------
          > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
          > to anger."
          > (James 1:19)
          > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >





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        • Steve Dennehy
          Davide, Jesus is a Jew, Jesus is a man--God as man and will always be a man, a Divine man. Otherwise you end up denying the Incarnation. What is not
          Message 4 of 14 , May 2, 2004
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            Davide,
            Jesus is a Jew, Jesus is a man--God as man and will
            always be a man, a Divine man. Otherwise you end up
            denying the Incarnation. "What is not assumed is not
            redeemed" (I think it was St. Athanasius who said
            that.). God the Son did not becaome man, then
            transcend being a man, cease being a man. He restored
            His human nature to a pre-fallen state in His glorious
            resurrection, restoring our human nature in His. He
            ascended into the Father, deifying His human nature
            and deifying our human nature in His. In the
            Ascension His human nature becomes Divine, it does not
            cease to exist.
            In Yeshua, the Divine Jew,
            Steve
            --- D�vide Siv�ro <davidetamara@...> wrote:
            > Jesus was not and is not a Jew! He was incarnated
            > as a Jewish man
            >
            > -I meant that.
            >
            > > Moreover, the Gospels were written in Greek, not
            > Hebrew
            >
            > -Lots of scholars say that at least Mor Mattay's
            > Gospel was written
            > either in Aramaic or Hebrew, isn't that true? Anyhow
            > I think it isn't
            > a matter of dogma...
            > The Greek Orthodox tradition says that the Aramaic
            > or Hebrew parts of
            > the New Testament were immediately translated into
            > Greek under the
            > guidance of the Ru'ho Qadisho.
            > BaMshi'ho,
            > Davide
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >
            > ----------
            > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
            > to anger."
            > (James 1:19)
            > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >





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          • Thomas P
            I think this forum should encourage messages related to Syriac resources and Orthodox church in general. Issues about ethnicity etc. can be discussed on other
            Message 5 of 14 , May 3, 2004
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              I think this forum should encourage messages related to Syriac
              resources and Orthodox church in general. Issues about ethnicity etc.
              can be discussed on other relevant forums.

              - Thomas
            • Steve Dennehy
              Edward, Jesus, from His conception in an egg in the womb of the All-Holy Virgin Miriam is Spirit-Soul-Body, as are all human persons. His Spirit is His Person,
              Message 6 of 14 , May 3, 2004
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                Edward,
                Jesus, from His conception in an egg in the womb of
                the All-Holy Virgin Miriam is Spirit-Soul-Body, as are
                all human persons.
                His Spirit is His Person, His "I" (God the
                Son/Word/Image), eternal and Divine.
                His Soul is perfect universal, but at the same time
                is unique and individual.
                His Body is male and ethnically Jewish Semitic
                Caucasian.
                He is One Lord Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ).

                You state this correctly when you say He is a single
                hypostasis (Person).

                Your statement that"He never actually became a Jewish
                man, He just assumed the role of one for the purpose
                of establishing the Kingdom of God..." strikes me as
                Nestorian and Gnostic. You seem to be denying the
                Incarnation altogether. I don't undertsand how you
                could read St. Athanasius and come to that conclusion.

                The tradition in the Church from ancient times is that
                the Gospels are arranged in chronological order, in
                the order in which they were written. The Tradition
                is that Mathew's was addressed to the Aramaic-Syriac
                speaking Jewish and Syrian Christians, Luke to the
                Greek speaking Christians and Mark to the Latin
                speaking Christians.

                It is always a mistake to subvert theology to
                philosophy. It is always a mistake to subvert God to
                theology. Dogmas are boundaries; they tell us where
                to go, where not to go. But dogmas are not God,
                statements about God are not God. ONLY GOD IS GOD.
                God is Father-Jesus-Spirit, One in Essence and
                undivided.
                In Him,
                Steve
                --- Edward Moore <emoore@...> wrote:
                >
                > Steve,
                >
                > > God the Son became man, He became a Jewish man.
                > His
                > > Person is God the Son but he has a human nature-
                > male
                > > and Jewish Semitic Caucasian .
                >
                > This statement is theologically unsound. The
                > Orthodox Church Fathers
                > unanimously hold that Christ was a single person
                > (hupostasis) possessing two
                > natures, divine and human. His human nature was not
                > the specific,
                > individual nature of a single man; rather, as
                > God-man, the New Adam, Christ
                > united the totality of human nature with divinity in
                > His single hupostasis.
                > You are, of course, correct that the God-man existed
                > in the 'person'
                > (prosopon) of a Jewish man at a particular time in
                > history, but as St.
                > Athanasius affirms (in his De incarnatione), He
                > never stopped functioning as
                > the Logos holding the universe together by the power
                > of His divine will. We
                > know from the New Testament that Christ unites all
                > of humanity in His
                > person, so that we are no longer able to make
                > distinctions between Jew and
                > Greek (Gentile), male and female, slave and free,
                > etc. Further, as the
                > Epistle to the Hebrews tells us, Christ is eternally
                > the same. He never
                > actually became a Jewish man; He simply assumed the
                > role of one for the
                > purpose of establishing the Kingdom of God and the
                > New Coveneant in a manner
                > that transcends ethnic division. This He could not
                > have accomplished, I
                > posit, if He did not possess the totality of human
                > nature -- including Jews
                > but all other races as well -- in His person.
                >
                > Perhaps we will understand each other better if we
                > invoke the ancient
                > Sophistic distinction between nature (phusis) and
                > convention (nomos). Can
                > we agree that Christ was a Jew by covnention, but
                > not by nature?
                >
                > > The first Gospel to be written was Mathew which
                > was
                > > written in Aranmaic Syrian as it was addressed to
                > > Aramaic speaking Syrian and Jewish Christians.
                >
                > This is incorrect. The first Gospel to be written
                > was Mark, and the
                > language of composition was Greek. I know of no
                > archaeological or
                > manuscript evidence supporting the theory that the
                > Gospels were originally
                > composed in Aramaic, or any other language but
                > Greek. Cf. Paul N. Tarazi,
                > _The New Testament: Introduction_, vol. 1, Paul and
                > Mark (Crestwood, NY: St.
                > Vladimir's Seminary Press 1999). On the original
                > language of the Gospels
                > consult the various studies by Jaroslav Pelikan, for
                > example.
                >
                > That said, as an editor of the Orthodox journal
                > _Theandros_, I invite you,
                > Steve, or anyone interested to submit an article
                > arguing in favor of a
                > theory of original Aramaic composition. Please see
                > the link in my signature
                > for information on submitting, should you be so
                > inclined.
                >
                > In Christ,
                >
                > Edward
                >
                > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                > Edward Moore, S.T.L., Ph.D. (candidate)
                > St. Elias School of Orthodox Theology
                > E-mail: emoore@...
                > Homepage: www.theandros.com/emoore
                >
                > Theandros: An Online Journal of
                > Orthodox Christian Theology and
                > Philosophy
                > www.theandros.com
                > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                >
                > ----------
                > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
                > to anger."
                > (James 1:19)
                > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >





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              • Steve Dennehy
                Thomas, We are not discussing ethnicity, we are discussing the Person of Lord Jesus Christ--the point of the Syrian Orthodox Church and of any believing
                Message 7 of 14 , May 8, 2004
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                  Thomas,

                  We are not discussing ethnicity, we are discussing the
                  Person of Lord Jesus Christ--the point of the Syrian
                  Orthodox Church and of any believing Christian.
                  Steve
                  --- Thomas P <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:
                  > I think this forum should encourage messages related
                  > to Syriac
                  > resources and Orthodox church in general. Issues
                  > about ethnicity etc.
                  > can be discussed on other relevant forums.
                  >
                  > - Thomas
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  >
                  > ----------
                  > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
                  > to anger."
                  > (James 1:19)
                  > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >





                  __________________________________
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                • Rajesh George
                  Dear Brothers in Christ Do you feel that the most important aspect about our life is we need to inherit the kingdom of GOD? We need to enjoy the LOVE of Jesus
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 10, 2004
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                    Dear Brothers in Christ

                                Do you feel that the most important aspect about our life is we need to inherit the kingdom of GOD ?  We need to enjoy the LOVE of Jesus in our practical lifes.

                    That’s is most important for us than about the theological aspects  of  our Lord.

                     

                    Thanks for all

                     


                    From: Steve Dennehy [mailto:svjd@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 5:25 AM
                    To: SOR-Forum@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SORForum] Jesus is a Jew

                     

                    Edward,
                    Jesus, from His conception in an egg in the womb of
                    the All-Holy Virgin Miriam is Spirit-Soul-Body, as are
                    all human persons.
                    His Spirit is His Person, His "I" (God the
                    Son/Word/Image), eternal and Divine.
                    His Soul is  perfect universal, but at the same time
                    is unique and individual.
                    His Body is male and ethnically Jewish Semitic
                    Caucasian.
                    He is One Lord Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ).

                    You state this correctly when you say He is a single
                    hypostasis (Person).

                    Your statement that"He never actually became a Jewish
                    man, He just assumed the role of one for the purpose
                    of establishing the Kingdom of God ..."   strikes me as
                    Nestorian and Gnostic.  You seem to be denying the
                    Incarnation altogether.  I don't undertsand how you
                    could read St. Athanasius and come to that conclusion.

                    The tradition in the Church from ancient times is that
                    the Gospels are arranged in chronological order, in
                    the order in which they were written.  The Tradition
                    is that Mathew's was addressed to the Aramaic-Syriac
                    speaking Jewish and Syrian Christians, Luke to the
                    Greek speaking Christians and Mark to the Latin
                    speaking Christians.

                    It is always a mistake to subvert theology to
                    philosophy.  It is always a mistake to subvert God to
                    theology.  Dogmas are boundaries; they tell us where
                    to go, where not to go. But dogmas are not God,
                    statements about God are not God. ONLY GOD IS GOD.
                    God is Father-Jesus-Spirit, One in Essence and
                    undivided.
                    In Him,
                    Steve
                    --- Edward Moore <emoore@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Steve,
                    >
                    > > God the Son became man, He became a Jewish man.
                    > His
                    > > Person is God the Son but he has a human nature-
                    > male
                    > > and  Jewish Semitic Caucasian .
                    >
                    > This statement is theologically unsound.  The
                    > Orthodox Church Fathers
                    > unanimously hold that Christ was a single person
                    > (hupostasis) possessing two
                    > natures, divine and human.  His human nature was not
                    > the specific,
                    > individual nature of a single man; rather, as
                    > God-man, the New Adam, Christ
                    > united the totality of human nature with divinity in
                    > His single hupostasis.
                    > You are, of course, correct that the God-man existed
                    > in the 'person'
                    > (prosopon) of a Jewish man at a particular time in
                    > history, but as St.
                    > Athanasius affirms (in his De incarnatione), He
                    > never stopped functioning as
                    > the Logos holding the universe together by the power
                    > of His divine will.  We
                    > know from the New Testament that Christ unites all
                    > of humanity in His
                    > person, so that we are no longer able to make
                    > distinctions between Jew and
                    > Greek (Gentile), male and female, slave and free,
                    > etc.  Further, as the
                    > Epistle to the Hebrews tells us, Christ is eternally
                    > the same.  He never
                    > actually became a Jewish man; He simply assumed the
                    > role of one for the
                    > purpose of establishing the Kingdom of God and the
                    > New Coveneant in a manner
                    > that transcends ethnic division.  This He could not
                    > have accomplished, I
                    > posit, if He did not possess the totality of human
                    > nature -- including Jews
                    > but all other races as well -- in His person.
                    >
                    > Perhaps we will understand each other better if we
                    > invoke the ancient
                    > Sophistic distinction between nature (phusis) and
                    > convention (nomos).  Can
                    > we agree that Christ was a Jew by covnention, but
                    > not by nature?
                    >
                    > > The first Gospel to be written was Mathew which
                    > was
                    > > written in Aranmaic Syrian as it was addressed to
                    > > Aramaic speaking Syrian and Jewish Christians.
                    >
                    > This is incorrect.  The first Gospel to be written
                    > was Mark, and the
                    > language of composition was Greek.  I know of no
                    > archaeological or
                    > manuscript evidence supporting the theory that the
                    > Gospels were originally
                    > composed in Aramaic, or any other language but
                    > Greek.  Cf. Paul N. Tarazi,
                    > _The New Testament: Introduction_, vol. 1, Paul and
                    > Mark ( Crestwood , NY : St.
                    > Vladimir 's Seminary Press 1999).  On the original
                    > language of the Gospels
                    > consult the various studies by Jaroslav Pelikan, for
                    > example.
                    >
                    > That said, as an editor of the Orthodox journal
                    > _Theandros_, I invite you,
                    > Steve, or anyone interested to submit an article
                    > arguing in favor of a
                    > theory of original Aramaic composition.  Please see
                    > the link in my signature
                    > for information on submitting, should you be so
                    > inclined.
                    >
                    > In Christ,
                    >
                    > Edward
                    >
                    > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                    > Edward Moore, S.T.L., Ph.D. (candidate)
                    > St. Elias School of Orthodox Theology
                    > E-mail: emoore@...
                    > Homepage: www.theandros.com/emoore
                    >
                    > Theandros: An Online Journal of
                    > Orthodox Christian Theology and
                    > Philosophy
                    > www.theandros.com
                    > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    >
                    > ----------
                    > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
                    > to anger."
                    > (James 1:19)
                    > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >      SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >

                    >



                         
                               
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                    ----------
                    "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger."
                    (James 1:19)
                    Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu




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