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"Anti-American Sentiments" -- Re: Easter / Prayers

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  • drthomas_joseph
    Steve - The SOR-Forum is dedicated to disseminating information related to the spiritual heritage of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Significant news related to
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 26, 2004
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      Steve -

      The SOR-Forum is dedicated to disseminating information related to
      the spiritual heritage of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Significant
      news related to the Church are also disseminated on the forum as
      appropriate. Members of the forum are nationals of different
      countries including a number of US nationals and residents. We have
      no intent to support any political agenda including promoting any
      anti-American sentiments. At the same time, we have no intent to
      censor messages of interest to Christians in the Middle East because
      it may offend some Americans or of other nationalities.

      I assume that the quote in Message <a
      href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOR-Forum/message/579">579</a>
      that provoked you is "The spiritual leaders of the Christian sects
      expressed gratitude to President Assad for his kind congratulations,
      wishing His Excellency success in leading the country and care for
      all the citizens for the best interest of Syria and the Arab Nation."

      I cannot agree with your argument that this statement is anti-
      American merely because representatives of Middle Eastern Churches
      expressed gratitude to Bashar Assad. I guess by the same token, if a
      Christian leader were to denounce the denial of civil rights to
      Christians in Saudi Arabia that would be "anti-American" as well
      because Saudi Arabia is one of the closest US allies.

      You go on to claim that the forum consistently promotes anti-American
      sentiments. Even if the above statement falls into the category
      of "anti-American", the facts do not support your claim. The archives
      of messages posted on the forum are available at
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOR-Forum. You can go ahead and
      determine for yourselves the number of messages that contain any such
      statement.

      While I have no intent to open SOR-Forum for political discussion,
      the point you have raised requires a response.

      Assad is no doubt a ruler who was not democratically elected who is
      obstructing US designs for the Middle East. Now, how many allies of
      the US in the Middle East have democratically elected rulers and
      unstained hands?

      Syria is a country that is viewed as a nation that promotes terrorism
      in the Middle East by the US. Yet, Saudi Arabia, the closest ally of
      the US was the chief exporter of terrorism all over the world,
      including the terrorists of 9/11 notoriety. One cannot hide behind
      the smoke screen that terrorists were individuals acting on their
      own. The Saudi government actively funded ultra-fundamentalist
      Wahhabi schools all over the world including US and nurtured agents
      of intolerance and terror. The US did nothing about it until the
      terrorists struck America.

      Syria is perhaps the only country where Christians can live in peace,
      practice their religion without fear of reprisal, and aspire to
      equality in public life. Is an oblique acknowledgment of this fact
      anti-American? Saudi on the other hand is a land where possessing a
      Bible or Christian literature, practicing any religion other than
      Islam is a crime with grave punishment. Yet, the US is its closest
      ally; the US has not been able or willing to exert any influence on
      them to permit even a modicum of civil rights for non-Muslims. Aren't
      the human values of liberty and equality what America stands for?

      In Iraq, Christians who have lived there since time immemorial have
      been given the cold shoulder by the US administrators as the
      political future of the country is being determined. Despite the evil
      perpetrated by the butcher of Baghdad, the Christian minority fared
      better than many other countries in the Middle East; today, the
      Christian minority lives in the fear of being obliterated. In such
      circumstances, can you blame the Christians in the Middle East for
      being grateful to Assad?

      I hope you will reconsider your intemperate remarks and recognize
      that denying human beings liberty, equality and fundamental civil
      rights are truly what is "anti-American."

      Thomas Joseph
      Moderator, SOR-Forum


      --- In SOR-Forum@yahoogroups.com, Steve Dennehy <svjd@y...> wrote:
      > SOR Forum
      >
      > I'm very tired of constant anti-American sentiments
      > and the praising of dictators in the Middle East by so
      > called Christians on this forum. Apparrently Saddam
      > Hussein and and Syria's Assad are living saints.
      > Give me a break.
      >
      > Let's try to remember that Our Lord Yeshua Messiah
      > (Jesus Christ), our God and only Saviour, is the
      > Divine Jew not the Divine Syrian.
      >
      > Steve Dennehy
      > --- Thomas P <thomas_pa1@y...> wrote:
      > > Syrian Arab News Agency, Sun 11 Apr 2004
      > > DAMASCUS, April. 11
      > >
      > > Christian sects in Syria who follow the eastern and
      > > Western calendars
      > > celebrated on Sunday Easter through performing
      > > prayers, masses and
      > > preaches.
      > >
      > > Patriarch of Antioch and all the East of the Roman
      > > Catholics
      > > Gregorius III Laham chaired a large masse in Roman
      > > Catholic
      > > Patriarchate in which he spoke about the sublime
      > > values of Easter and
      > > the divine message conveyed by Christ for salvation
      > > of humanity as a
      > > whole.
      > >
      > >
      > > A large religious mass also was held at Mar Jurjus
      > > Cathedral for the
      > > Assyrian-Orthodox. . It was led by Patriarch Mar
      > > Agnatuis Zakka Ewas
      > > I, the patriarch of Antioch and the whole east and
      > > the higher
      > > chairman of the Assyrian-Orthodox church in the
      > > world.
      > >
      > >
      > > In similar sermons the spiritual leader of the
      > > Anglican church in
      > > Damascus, Botrous Zaour and archbishop of the
      > > Armenian Orthodox in
      > > Damascus Armache Balandian spoke in their separate
      > > sermons about the
      > > humanitarian message of the Christ to free human
      > > beings from their
      > > sin and suffering.
      > > Similar masses and sermons were observed in other
      > > churches and
      > > cathedrals in the capital and all over the Syrian
      > > governorates to
      > > mark the glorious occasion and to commemorate the
      > > spirit of
      > > coexistence shared by all Syrians of diverse groups
      > > and religions.
      > >
      > > Speeches and preaches during the sermons hailed
      > > Syria's national
      > > stance, her continuous efforts for realizing just
      > > and comprehensive
      > > peace in the region and her commitment to justice
      > > and right values.
      > >
      > > Speeches and preaches also condemned the accusations
      > > and threats
      > > against Syria which aim at subduing the whole region
      > > and plundering
      > > its wealth and treasures.
      > >
      > > In this respect and on directive from president
      > > Bashar al-Assad, the
      > > Minister of the Presidential Affairs Dr. Ghassan
      > > Laham on Sunday
      > > conveyed the President's heartfelt congratulation to
      > > the spiritual
      > > leaders of the Christian sects on the occasion of
      > > the Easter, wishing
      > > them success in their work.
      > >
      > > Dr. Laham visited His Eminence Patriarch Ignatius IV
      > > Hazim of the
      > > Roman Orthodox, Archbishop Luca, His Eminence
      > > Patriarch Gregorius III
      > > Laham of the Roman Catholics, Archbishop Isidor
      > > Battikha, Archbishop
      > > Elias Tibbi at the Patriarchate of the Assyrian
      > > Catholics and others.
      > >
      > > The spiritual leaders of the Christian sects
      > > expressed gratitude to
      > > President Assad for his kind congratulations,
      > > wishing His Excellency
      > > success in leading the country and care for all the
      > > citizens for the
      > > best interest of Syria and the Arab Nation.
      > >
      > > Awkaf Minister, Mohammad Ziada also visited the
      > > spiritual leaders of
      > > the Christian sects and offered them his
      > > congratulations on the
      > > occasion of Easter.
      > >
      > > During the meeting the spiritual leaders hailed the
      > > national unity
      > > and coexistence which Syria enjoys.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Ghossoun /
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
      > > to anger."
      > > (James 1:19)
      > > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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      > > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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    • Steve Dennehy
      Thomas, I was referring specifically to paragraphs 5 and 6. Prasing dictators like Assad for efforts to realize just and comprehensive peace in the region
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 27, 2004
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        Thomas,

        I was referring specifically to paragraphs 5 and 6.
        Prasing dictators like Assad for "efforts to realize
        just and comprehensive peace in the region and her
        commitment to justice and right values" is little
        short of an outright lie. Veiled references to
        "accusations and threats against Syria, which aim at
        subdueing the whole region and plundering it's wealth
        and treasures" is obviously directed at America.
        That seems to be the party line in the Middle
        East--"America is there to steal oil and conquer the
        region". Do you really think America waznts the
        incredible headache that the Middle East is ?

        You're right, Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship, with no
        religious freedom, and is an ally of America. The
        Saud family certainly doesn't support the ultra-fun-
        damentalist Wahabi sect of Islam since it is opposed
        to them, and they have tried buying them off. The
        American government does need to put more pressure on
        the Saudi government to democratize that nation.

        The only design America has for the Middle East is to
        bring stability and hopefully, democracy to it, not
        by coercion but by example. Unfortunatwely, there is
        no tradition of democracy in any of these countries.

        It is difficult for Middle Easterners and Americans to
        communicate, principally because few Americans are
        familiar with Islam and few Middle Easterners are
        familiar with America, unless they have lived here
        which, proportionately ,few have. Mddle Easterners
        tend to get their sense of America and the American
        people from American movies, televsion, music and
        advertising, much of which is destructive and decadent
        and distorts America. This is a problem here in
        America itself between the left and the right, and
        those of us who try to hold the center.

        I am GLAD Saddam Husein is gone from power; you should
        all be glad he's gone. One less evil dictator in the
        world is to everyone's advantage, especially to the
        people of Irag and surrounding countries.

        I think it would help a great deal if the SOR forum
        focused less on the Syrian people, the Syriac language
        and the heritage of the Syrian Church and more on the
        One Who is supposed to be the point of the Syrian
        Church and every other branch of Christianity--Lord
        Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ), the living, present
        Lord of the Universe in us and among us.
        Steve

        MODERATOR:
        The purpose of the forum is very clearly stated on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sor-forum/. Members are accepted into the forum with the understanding that they have understood the objectives of the forum and will abide by its policies.


        --- drthomas_joseph <thomas_joseph@...> wrote:
        > Steve -
        >
        > The SOR-Forum is dedicated to disseminating
        > information related to
        > the spiritual heritage of the Syriac Orthodox
        > Church. Significant
        > news related to the Church are also disseminated on
        > the forum as
        > appropriate. Members of the forum are nationals of
        > different
        > countries including a number of US nationals and
        > residents. We have
        > no intent to support any political agenda including
        > promoting any
        > anti-American sentiments. At the same time, we have
        > no intent to
        > censor messages of interest to Christians in the
        > Middle East because
        > it may offend some Americans or of other
        > nationalities.
        >
        > I assume that the quote in Message <a
        >
        href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOR-Forum/message/579">579</a>
        >
        > that provoked you is "The spiritual leaders of the
        > Christian sects
        > expressed gratitude to President Assad for his kind
        > congratulations,
        > wishing His Excellency success in leading the
        > country and care for
        > all the citizens for the best interest of Syria and
        > the Arab Nation."
        >
        > I cannot agree with your argument that this
        > statement is anti-
        > American merely because representatives of Middle
        > Eastern Churches
        > expressed gratitude to Bashar Assad. I guess by the
        > same token, if a
        > Christian leader were to denounce the denial of
        > civil rights to
        > Christians in Saudi Arabia that would be
        > "anti-American" as well
        > because Saudi Arabia is one of the closest US
        > allies.
        >
        > You go on to claim that the forum consistently
        > promotes anti-American
        > sentiments. Even if the above statement falls into
        > the category
        > of "anti-American", the facts do not support your
        > claim. The archives
        > of messages posted on the forum are available at
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOR-Forum. You can go
        > ahead and
        > determine for yourselves the number of messages that
        > contain any such
        > statement.
        >
        > While I have no intent to open SOR-Forum for
        > political discussion,
        > the point you have raised requires a response.
        >
        > Assad is no doubt a ruler who was not democratically
        > elected who is
        > obstructing US designs for the Middle East. Now, how
        > many allies of
        > the US in the Middle East have democratically
        > elected rulers and
        > unstained hands?
        >
        > Syria is a country that is viewed as a nation that
        > promotes terrorism
        > in the Middle East by the US. Yet, Saudi Arabia, the
        > closest ally of
        > the US was the chief exporter of terrorism all over
        > the world,
        > including the terrorists of 9/11 notoriety. One
        > cannot hide behind
        > the smoke screen that terrorists were individuals
        > acting on their
        > own. The Saudi government actively funded
        > ultra-fundamentalist
        > Wahhabi schools all over the world including US and
        > nurtured agents
        > of intolerance and terror. The US did nothing about
        > it until the
        > terrorists struck America.
        >
        > Syria is perhaps the only country where Christians
        > can live in peace,
        > practice their religion without fear of reprisal,
        > and aspire to
        > equality in public life. Is an oblique
        > acknowledgment of this fact
        > anti-American? Saudi on the other hand is a land
        > where possessing a
        > Bible or Christian literature, practicing any
        > religion other than
        > Islam is a crime with grave punishment. Yet, the US
        > is its closest
        > ally; the US has not been able or willing to exert
        > any influence on
        > them to permit even a modicum of civil rights for
        > non-Muslims. Aren't
        > the human values of liberty and equality what
        > America stands for?
        >
        > In Iraq, Christians who have lived there since time
        > immemorial have
        > been given the cold shoulder by the US
        > administrators as the
        > political future of the country is being determined.
        > Despite the evil
        > perpetrated by the butcher of Baghdad, the Christian
        > minority fared
        > better than many other countries in the Middle East;
        > today, the
        > Christian minority lives in the fear of being
        > obliterated. In such
        > circumstances, can you blame the Christians in the
        > Middle East for
        > being grateful to Assad?
        >
        > I hope you will reconsider your intemperate remarks
        > and recognize
        > that denying human beings liberty, equality and
        > fundamental civil
        > rights are truly what is "anti-American."
        >
        > Thomas Joseph
        > Moderator, SOR-Forum
        >
        >
        > --- In SOR-Forum@yahoogroups.com, Steve Dennehy
        > <svjd@y...> wrote:
        > > SOR Forum
        > >
        > > I'm very tired of constant anti-American
        > sentiments
        > > and the praising of dictators in the Middle East
        > by so
        > > called Christians on this forum. Apparrently
        > Saddam
        > > Hussein and and Syria's Assad are living saints.
        > > Give me a break.
        > >
        > > Let's try to remember that Our Lord Yeshua Messiah
        > > (Jesus Christ), our God and only Saviour, is the
        > > Divine Jew not the Divine Syrian.
        > >
        > > Steve Dennehy
        > > --- Thomas P <thomas_pa1@y...> wrote:
        > > > Syrian Arab News Agency, Sun 11 Apr 2004
        > > > DAMASCUS, April. 11
        > > >
        > > > Christian sects in Syria who follow the eastern
        > and
        > > > Western calendars
        > > > celebrated on Sunday Easter through performing
        > > > prayers, masses and
        > > > preaches.
        > > >
        > > > Patriarch of Antioch and all the East of the
        > Roman
        > > > Catholics
        > > > Gregorius III Laham chaired a large masse in
        > Roman
        > > > Catholic
        > > > Patriarchate in which he spoke about the sublime
        > > > values of Easter and
        > > > the divine message conveyed by Christ for
        > salvation
        > > > of humanity as a
        > > > whole.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > A large religious mass also was held at Mar
        > Jurjus
        > > > Cathedral for the
        > > > Assyrian-Orthodox. . It was led by Patriarch Mar
        > > > Agnatuis Zakka Ewas
        > > > I, the patriarch of Antioch and the whole east
        > and
        > > > the higher
        > > > chairman of the Assyrian-Orthodox church in the
        > > > world.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > In similar sermons the spiritual leader of the
        > > > Anglican church in
        > > > Damascus, Botrous Zaour and archbishop of the
        > > > Armenian Orthodox in
        > > > Damascus Armache Balandian spoke in their
        > separate
        > > > sermons about the
        > > > humanitarian message of the Christ to free human
        > > > beings from their
        > > > sin and suffering.
        > > > Similar masses and sermons were observed in
        > other
        >
        === message truncated ===





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      • Zayd Abdul-Noor
        Jesus as his manhood nature was a Jew but the jews didn t accept him as saviour and God and this make no sense in politics as the God s people are not the
        Message 3 of 9 , May 1 9:11 AM
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          Jesus as his manhood nature was a Jew but the jews didn't accept him as saviour and God and this make no sense in politics as the   God's people are not the jewish people
          God's people is the christians not jews
          Isreal nowadays are criminal state and Sharon like Saddam
          do not do like Muslims and interefere relegion with politics
           
          Zayd Abdulnoor

          D�vide Siv�ro <davidetamara@...> wrote:
          > I'm very tired of  constant anti-American  sentiments

          Dear brother in Yeshua' hammashia'h, I take the liberty to add: how
          can it be expected that people believing in the Message of the
          Scriptures -including lots of religious Jews, who dislike Israeli and
          US politics- agree with the politics of a state (the USA) that
          supports a state (Israel) that has occupied lands where people are
          given no right, unless they are considered Jewish by the state? Jews
          living in the occupied territories, as well as Samaritans, considered
          Jewish by the state but not by the Torah, received Israeli
          citizenship, Muslims and Christians didn't.
          How can it be expected that people believing in the Message of the
          Scriptures like the civilians' deaths caused by the wars of a state,
          which has money worship as its official religion?
          This defineitely is different from being Anti-American in the meaning
          of hating the American people or any other people created by the Lord
          in the world.

          Apparrently Saddam
          > Hussein and  and Syria's Assad are living saints.

          I completely agree that Syria isn't a democracy. As to Assad, he was
          welcomed by the Neture Qarta of London (cfr.
          www.nkusa.org/activities/press/london121502.cfm ), so I don't think
          he is a bloody Anti-Semite either (it would be better to say "Anti-
          Jew" because Syrians definitely are Semites), but, surely, he isn't
          democratic.
          As to his supposed sanctity ;-) do you know that Assad isn't a true
          monotheist either, he isn't a Muslim? He is from the Nusayri sect of
          the Kurdish-originated cult of angels, which is considered a
          development of Mithraism.

          > Let's try to remember that Our Lord Yeshua Messiah
          > (Jesus Christ), our God and only Saviour, is the
          > Divine Jew not the Divine Syrian.

          Of course Yeshua' HamMashia'h was a Jew, and almost all the prophets
          and the main saints of our faith, including the mother of God, are
          Jews.
          Shalom uverakhah,
          Davide



          ----------
          "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger."
          (James 1:19)
          Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu



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        • Dàvide Sivèro
          ... him as saviour Dear friend and brother in Christ, yes of course, the Jews as a majority of the Jewish people, didn t, but the very first to accept Him were
          Message 4 of 9 , May 2 2:43 AM
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            > Jesus as his manhood nature was a Jew but the jews didn't accept
            him as saviour

            Dear friend and brother in Christ, yes of course, the Jews as a
            majority of the Jewish people, didn't, but the very first to accept
            Him were Jews. I don't know whether this happens in the Syriac
            Orthodox Church, but in other Christian Churches (ex.: the Orthodox
            Church in communion with Konstandinopolis) there even are people who
            belong to the Jewish people and to the Christian Faith. The Catholic
            Church even have "qehillot shel minhag 'Ibrit", "communities of
            Hebrew tradition", made of Jews belonging to the Roman Catholic
            Church, and in Palestine there even is an auxiliary Bishop to the
            Latin Patriarch for the Christian Jews, Hegmon Jean-Baptiste Gourion.

            > God's people is the christians not jews

            We know that Yisrael was God's people, now all the Christians,
            whether Jews (as a people, not as a religious group, which would
            imply the denying of Christian Truth) or non-Jews, are His people.

            > Isreal nowadays are criminal state

            I definitely agree with you. Of course that has nothing to do with
            the fact that Moran Yeshu' Mshi'ho was a Jew, incarnated as a Jewish
            man, that the early Church was Jewish (ethnical meaning of "Jewish",
            not the religious one: they are two different meanings), that the
            Jews have been God's chosen people, that the world wide (from
            Palestine to any other country) dispersed people of Israel and the
            state of Israel are two different things, that a Jew may hate Israeli
            politics as we two do (and several Jews do so)...
            BaMshi'ho,
            Davide
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