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Re: [SORForum] Jesus is a Jew

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  • Edward Moore
    ... I must confess that I am aghast at the theological ignorance of certain members of this forum. Have none bothered to study patrology and the Oecumenical
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 25, 2004
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      "Dàvide Sivèro" <davidetamara@...> wrote:
       
      > Of course Yeshua' HamMashia'h was a Jew, and almost all the prophets
      > and the main saints of our
      faith, including the mother of God, are
      > Jews.
      > Shalom
      uverakhah,
      > Davide
      I must confess that I am aghast at the theological ignorance of certain members of this forum.  Have none bothered to study patrology and the Oecumenical Councils?  Jesus was not and is not a Jew!  He was incarnated as a Jewish man, yes, but in his humanity He united all of human nature with the Godhead, in a manner transcending biological and ethnic differences.  This is "Theology 101" gentlemen ... Please refer to St. Athanasius' De incarnatione, or to the Christological writings of St. Maximus the Confessor. 
       
      Moreover, the Gospels were written in Greek, not Hebrew, due to the fact that God has decided to make His revelation accessible to the entire world, not just to the Jews -- and in that period Greek was the common language of the Roman Empire.  I strongly suggest that Messrs. Dennehy and Sivèro spend some time studying the work of the Greek Fathers, who were well-acquainted with the philosophies of Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, etc.  It is the Greeks, not the Hebrews, who are the true spiritual forebears of Christianity, as St. Clement of Alexandria, for example, adequately attests.
       
      H cariV tou Kuriou hmwn Ihsou Cristou meta pantwn umwn.
       
      Edward Moore, S.T.L.
       
       
       
       
       
       
    • Sarkessian, Gary A
      His mother was a Jew. John the Forerunner was a Jew. St. Paul was a Jew. St. John the Evangelist was a Jew. I have never heard anyone until today say that
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 27, 2004
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        His mother was a Jew.  John the Forerunner was a Jew.  St. Paul was a Jew.  St. John the Evangelist was a Jew. 

        I have never heard anyone until today say that Jesus was not a Jew. 

         

         

        Garabed A. Sarkessian

        The Apostolic, Catholic, Orthodox, Holy Church of Armenia

        Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

        USA

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Edward Moore [mailto:emoore@...]
        Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 2:03 AM
        To: SOR-Forum@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SORForum] Jesus is a Jew

         

         

        "Dàvide Sivèro" <davidetamara@...> wrote:

         

        > Of course Yeshua' HamMashia'h was a Jew, and almost all the prophets

        > and the main saints of our faith, including the mother of God, are
        > Jews.
        > Shalom uverakhah,
        > Davide

        I must confess that I am aghast at the theological ignorance of certain members of this forum.  Have none bothered to study patrology and the Oecumenical Councils?  Jesus was not and is not a Jew!  He was incarnated as a Jewish man, yes, but in his humanity He united all of human nature with the Godhead, in a manner transcending biological and ethnic differences.  This is "Theology 101" gentlemen ... Please refer to St. Athanasius' De incarnatione, or to the Christological writings of St. Maximus the Confessor. 

         

        Moreover, the Gospels were written in Greek, not Hebrew, due to the fact that God has decided to make His revelation accessible to the entire world, not just to the Jews -- and in that period Greek was the common language of the Roman Empire.  I strongly suggest that Messrs. Dennehy and Sivèro spend some time studying the work of the Greek Fathers, who were well-acquainted with the philosophies of Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, etc.  It is the Greeks, not the Hebrews, who are the true spiritual forebears of Christianity, as St. Clement of Alexandria, for example, adequately attests.

         

        H cariV tou Kuriou hmwn Ihsou Cristou meta pantwn umwn.

         

        Edward Moore, S.T.L.

         

         

         

         

         

         



        ----------
        "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger."
        (James 1:19)
        Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu



      • Dàvide Sivèro
        Jesus was not and is not a Jew! He was incarnated as a Jewish man -I meant that. ... -Lots of scholars say that at least Mor Mattay s Gospel was written
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 27, 2004
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          Jesus was not and is not a Jew! He was incarnated as a Jewish man

          -I meant that.

          > Moreover, the Gospels were written in Greek, not Hebrew

          -Lots of scholars say that at least Mor Mattay's Gospel was written
          either in Aramaic or Hebrew, isn't that true? Anyhow I think it isn't
          a matter of dogma...
          The Greek Orthodox tradition says that the Aramaic or Hebrew parts of
          the New Testament were immediately translated into Greek under the
          guidance of the Ru'ho Qadisho.
          BaMshi'ho,
          Davide
        • Dàvide Sivèro
          ... -But they are often regarded as second class citizens, as even non-Ashkenazi Jewish Israelis are. ... -I fear that most wars aren t charity... You would
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 27, 2004
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            > The Arabs, Muslim and Christian, of Israel are full
            > citizens of the State of Israel and are about 20% of
            > the population.

            -But they are often regarded as second class citizens, as even non-Ashkenazi
            Jewish Israelis are.

            > It isn't money worship that causes us to send our sons
            > and daughters to Iraq, it was to rid Irag, the Middle
            > East and the world of a very evil dictator

            -I fear that most wars aren't charity...

            You would never accuse our nation

            -No, dear friend and brother in Christ, I don't accuse a nation, a people at
            all. I do accuse a kind of politics.

            Americans are not perfect, we are good
            > and evil like all people but you folks are intent on
            > painitng us as all-evil and yourselves as all-good.
            > Both are lies.

            -You are right!
            BaMshi'ho,
            Davide
          • Steve Dennehy
            Edward, God the Son became man, He became a Jewish man. His Person is God the Son but he has a human nature- male and Jewish Semitic Caucasian . In His life
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 27, 2004
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              Edward,

              God the Son became man, He became a Jewish man. His
              Person is God the Son but he has a human nature- male
              and Jewish Semitic Caucasian . In His life among us
              he had a language, a religion(the Israeli religion-
              God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Israel),
              a home (Nazareth in Galilee), an occupation (first
              carpenter, then itinerant rabbi), a mother
              (Miraim/Mary), a foster-father (Yousef/Joseph), step
              brothers and sisters . He lived in a psecic time and
              place. He does not transcend His human nature. By
              His Resurrection and Ascension He gloriefies, then
              deifies His human nature whcih will always be male
              asnd Jewish.
              Aramaic Syrian was his primnary language, the language
              of the mass of common Israeli peoples in his time,
              though He also spoke Hebrew and possibly Greek.
              The first Gospel to be written was Mathew which was
              written in Aranmaic Syrian as it was addressed to
              Aramaic speaking Syrian and Jewish Christians.

              In Yeshua, our Beloved Joy,
              Steve
              --- Edward Moore <emoore@...> wrote:
              >
              > "D�vide Siv�ro" <davidetamara@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Of course Yeshua' HamMashia'h was a Jew, and
              > almost all the prophets
              > > and the main saints of our faith, including the
              > mother of God, are
              > > Jews.
              > > Shalom uverakhah,
              > > Davide
              >
              > I must confess that I am aghast at the theological
              > ignorance of certain members of this forum. Have
              > none bothered to study patrology and the Oecumenical
              > Councils? Jesus was not and is not a Jew! He was
              > incarnated as a Jewish man, yes, but in his humanity
              > He united all of human nature with the Godhead, in a
              > manner transcending biological and ethnic
              > differences. This is "Theology 101" gentlemen ...
              > Please refer to St. Athanasius' De incarnatione, or
              > to the Christological writings of St. Maximus the
              > Confessor.
              >
              > Moreover, the Gospels were written in Greek, not
              > Hebrew, due to the fact that God has decided to make
              > His revelation accessible to the entire world, not
              > just to the Jews -- and in that period Greek was the
              > common language of the Roman Empire. I strongly
              > suggest that Messrs. Dennehy and Siv�ro spend some
              > time studying the work of the Greek Fathers, who
              > were well-acquainted with the philosophies of Plato,
              > Aristotle, Plotinus, etc. It is the Greeks, not the
              > Hebrews, who are the true spiritual forebears of
              > Christianity, as St. Clement of Alexandria, for
              > example, adequately attests.
              >
              > H cariV tou Kuriou hmwn Ihsou Cristou meta pantwn
              > umwn.
              >
              > Edward Moore, S.T.L.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >





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            • Dàvide Sivèro
              I strongly suggest that Messrs. Dennehy and Sivèro spend some time studying the work of the Greek Fathers, who were well-acquainted with the philosophies of
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 30, 2004
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                I strongly suggest that Messrs. Dennehy and Sivèro spend some time
                studying the work of the Greek Fathers, who were well-acquainted with
                the philosophies of Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, etc.

                -I didn't reflected before now on these words, dear brother in
                Christ. Plato, Aristotle and Plotinus weren't Christians at all, they
                were Pagans, but, of course, a Pagan can have a valid thought. St.
                Augustine said that the Greeks had been given reason by the Lord,
                while the Jews had been given the Torah, the Revelation (which
                definitely is more important).

                It is the Greeks, not the Hebrews, who are the true spiritual
                forebears of Christianity, as St. Clement of Alexandria, for example,
                adequately attests.

                -Yes, it's very clear that most Jews didn't believe in Christ, while
                most Greeks do. Of course this doesn't contraddict at all the fact
                that there is NO difference before God between one people and another
                people, between Jews, Greeks, Syrians or anybody else.
                I suspect that our dear friend and brother in Christ Steve unproperly
                mixed hate against the Jews, hate against the Americans, hate against
                current American politics, hate against Israeli politics, hate
                against the death of innocent Arab people etc., but I wanted to share
                with him the thought that the Jews, as well as deserving the utmost
                respect as every other people created by God, can't be hated by any
                Christian who believes that God chose to incarnate as a Jewish man.
                BaMshi'ho,
                Davide
              • Edward Moore
                Steve, ... This statement is theologically unsound. The Orthodox Church Fathers unanimously hold that Christ was a single person (hupostasis) possessing two
                Message 7 of 14 , May 1 11:31 PM
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                  Steve,

                  > God the Son became man, He became a Jewish man. His
                  > Person is God the Son but he has a human nature- male
                  > and Jewish Semitic Caucasian .

                  This statement is theologically unsound. The Orthodox Church Fathers
                  unanimously hold that Christ was a single person (hupostasis) possessing two
                  natures, divine and human. His human nature was not the specific,
                  individual nature of a single man; rather, as God-man, the New Adam, Christ
                  united the totality of human nature with divinity in His single hupostasis.
                  You are, of course, correct that the God-man existed in the 'person'
                  (prosopon) of a Jewish man at a particular time in history, but as St.
                  Athanasius affirms (in his De incarnatione), He never stopped functioning as
                  the Logos holding the universe together by the power of His divine will. We
                  know from the New Testament that Christ unites all of humanity in His
                  person, so that we are no longer able to make distinctions between Jew and
                  Greek (Gentile), male and female, slave and free, etc. Further, as the
                  Epistle to the Hebrews tells us, Christ is eternally the same. He never
                  actually became a Jewish man; He simply assumed the role of one for the
                  purpose of establishing the Kingdom of God and the New Coveneant in a manner
                  that transcends ethnic division. This He could not have accomplished, I
                  posit, if He did not possess the totality of human nature -- including Jews
                  but all other races as well -- in His person.

                  Perhaps we will understand each other better if we invoke the ancient
                  Sophistic distinction between nature (phusis) and convention (nomos). Can
                  we agree that Christ was a Jew by covnention, but not by nature?

                  > The first Gospel to be written was Mathew which was
                  > written in Aranmaic Syrian as it was addressed to
                  > Aramaic speaking Syrian and Jewish Christians.

                  This is incorrect. The first Gospel to be written was Mark, and the
                  language of composition was Greek. I know of no archaeological or
                  manuscript evidence supporting the theory that the Gospels were originally
                  composed in Aramaic, or any other language but Greek. Cf. Paul N. Tarazi,
                  _The New Testament: Introduction_, vol. 1, Paul and Mark (Crestwood, NY: St.
                  Vladimir's Seminary Press 1999). On the original language of the Gospels
                  consult the various studies by Jaroslav Pelikan, for example.

                  That said, as an editor of the Orthodox journal _Theandros_, I invite you,
                  Steve, or anyone interested to submit an article arguing in favor of a
                  theory of original Aramaic composition. Please see the link in my signature
                  for information on submitting, should you be so inclined.

                  In Christ,

                  Edward

                  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                  Edward Moore, S.T.L., Ph.D. (candidate)
                  St. Elias School of Orthodox Theology
                  E-mail: emoore@...
                  Homepage: www.theandros.com/emoore

                  Theandros: An Online Journal of
                  Orthodox Christian Theology and
                  Philosophy
                  www.theandros.com
                  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                • Edward Moore
                  Davide, You wrote: I suspect that our dear friend and brother in Christ Steve unproperly mixed hate against the Jews, hate against the Americans, hate against
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 1 11:38 PM
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                    Davide,

                    You wrote:

                    "I suspect that our dear friend and brother in Christ Steve unproperly
                    mixed hate against the Jews, hate against the Americans, hate against
                    current American politics, hate against Israeli politics, hate
                    against the death of innocent Arab people etc., but I wanted to share
                    with him the thought that the Jews, as well as deserving the utmost
                    respect as every other people created by God, can't be hated by any
                    Christian who believes that God chose to incarnate as a Jewish man."

                    "Hate" is a strong word, and I would be slow to accuse anyone of hatred,
                    especially someone like Steve, whom I know only through my limited contact
                    with him on this list -- which is to say I don't know him at all. E-mail
                    forums are notoriously conducive to mis-understanding, and so I always try
                    to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

                    That said, I certainly agree with you: hatred is not to be tolerated by
                    Christians, against anyone. However, we are permitted righteous
                    indignation. And I am personally indignant over current Israeli policies,
                    as well as the policies of the administration of my country, the United
                    States. Indignation is an intellectual comportment; hatred is the reaction
                    of the ignorant. Steve is certainly not ignorant, so let us speak of his --
                    and my own (assuming I can be spared the label of ignoramus) -- indignation.

                    In Christ,

                    Edward
                  • Steve Dennehy
                    Davide, Wasn t Clement of Alexandria an Egyptian who wrote in Greek ? Greek was the language used to transmit the New Testament and was the main language used
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 2 5:26 PM
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                      Davide,

                      Wasn't Clement of Alexandria an Egyptian who wrote in
                      Greek ? Greek was the language used to transmit the
                      New Testament and was the main language used by the
                      Fathers of the Church up to about 800 for the
                      non-Greeks.
                      Most Greeks are not Christians; the rate of practise
                      among Greek nominal Christians is about 1/3 in Geece
                      and the diaspora. Greece like almost all of Europe is
                      an ex-Christian nation which legalized the murder of
                      the human person in the womb by abortion in 1983.

                      I have read a great deal in the Fathers for the past
                      26 years, though I'm certainly no expert on the
                      Fathers. I like to read all of them-Jewish, Syrian,
                      Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Armenian, Ethiopian, Persian,
                      Indian, Georgian, Irish, Spanish, etc. The Church of
                      Our Lord Yshua Messiah is universal and contains
                      members of every nation, race and tongue on the globe.
                      In Trinity, our God,
                      Steve
                      --- D�vide Siv�ro <davidetamara@...> wrote:
                      > I strongly suggest that Messrs. Dennehy and Siv�ro
                      > spend some time
                      > studying the work of the Greek Fathers, who were
                      > well-acquainted with
                      > the philosophies of Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, etc.
                      >
                      > -I didn't reflected before now on these words, dear
                      > brother in
                      > Christ. Plato, Aristotle and Plotinus weren't
                      > Christians at all, they
                      > were Pagans, but, of course, a Pagan can have a
                      > valid thought. St.
                      > Augustine said that the Greeks had been given reason
                      > by the Lord,
                      > while the Jews had been given the Torah, the
                      > Revelation (which
                      > definitely is more important).
                      >
                      > It is the Greeks, not the Hebrews, who are the true
                      > spiritual
                      > forebears of Christianity, as St. Clement of
                      > Alexandria, for example,
                      > adequately attests.
                      >
                      > -Yes, it's very clear that most Jews didn't believe
                      > in Christ, while
                      > most Greeks do. Of course this doesn't contraddict
                      > at all the fact
                      > that there is NO difference before God between one
                      > people and another
                      > people, between Jews, Greeks, Syrians or anybody
                      > else.
                      > I suspect that our dear friend and brother in Christ
                      > Steve unproperly
                      > mixed hate against the Jews, hate against the
                      > Americans, hate against
                      > current American politics, hate against Israeli
                      > politics, hate
                      > against the death of innocent Arab people etc., but
                      > I wanted to share
                      > with him the thought that the Jews, as well as
                      > deserving the utmost
                      > respect as every other people created by God, can't
                      > be hated by any
                      > Christian who believes that God chose to incarnate
                      > as a Jewish man.
                      > BaMshi'ho,
                      > Davide
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----------
                      > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
                      > to anger."
                      > (James 1:19)
                      > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >





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                    • Steve Dennehy
                      Davide, Jesus is a Jew, Jesus is a man--God as man and will always be a man, a Divine man. Otherwise you end up denying the Incarnation. What is not
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 2 5:37 PM
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                        Davide,
                        Jesus is a Jew, Jesus is a man--God as man and will
                        always be a man, a Divine man. Otherwise you end up
                        denying the Incarnation. "What is not assumed is not
                        redeemed" (I think it was St. Athanasius who said
                        that.). God the Son did not becaome man, then
                        transcend being a man, cease being a man. He restored
                        His human nature to a pre-fallen state in His glorious
                        resurrection, restoring our human nature in His. He
                        ascended into the Father, deifying His human nature
                        and deifying our human nature in His. In the
                        Ascension His human nature becomes Divine, it does not
                        cease to exist.
                        In Yeshua, the Divine Jew,
                        Steve
                        --- D�vide Siv�ro <davidetamara@...> wrote:
                        > Jesus was not and is not a Jew! He was incarnated
                        > as a Jewish man
                        >
                        > -I meant that.
                        >
                        > > Moreover, the Gospels were written in Greek, not
                        > Hebrew
                        >
                        > -Lots of scholars say that at least Mor Mattay's
                        > Gospel was written
                        > either in Aramaic or Hebrew, isn't that true? Anyhow
                        > I think it isn't
                        > a matter of dogma...
                        > The Greek Orthodox tradition says that the Aramaic
                        > or Hebrew parts of
                        > the New Testament were immediately translated into
                        > Greek under the
                        > guidance of the Ru'ho Qadisho.
                        > BaMshi'ho,
                        > Davide
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        >
                        > ----------
                        > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
                        > to anger."
                        > (James 1:19)
                        > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >





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                      • Thomas P
                        I think this forum should encourage messages related to Syriac resources and Orthodox church in general. Issues about ethnicity etc. can be discussed on other
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 3 2:09 PM
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                          I think this forum should encourage messages related to Syriac
                          resources and Orthodox church in general. Issues about ethnicity etc.
                          can be discussed on other relevant forums.

                          - Thomas
                        • Steve Dennehy
                          Edward, Jesus, from His conception in an egg in the womb of the All-Holy Virgin Miriam is Spirit-Soul-Body, as are all human persons. His Spirit is His Person,
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 3 4:55 PM
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                            Edward,
                            Jesus, from His conception in an egg in the womb of
                            the All-Holy Virgin Miriam is Spirit-Soul-Body, as are
                            all human persons.
                            His Spirit is His Person, His "I" (God the
                            Son/Word/Image), eternal and Divine.
                            His Soul is perfect universal, but at the same time
                            is unique and individual.
                            His Body is male and ethnically Jewish Semitic
                            Caucasian.
                            He is One Lord Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ).

                            You state this correctly when you say He is a single
                            hypostasis (Person).

                            Your statement that"He never actually became a Jewish
                            man, He just assumed the role of one for the purpose
                            of establishing the Kingdom of God..." strikes me as
                            Nestorian and Gnostic. You seem to be denying the
                            Incarnation altogether. I don't undertsand how you
                            could read St. Athanasius and come to that conclusion.

                            The tradition in the Church from ancient times is that
                            the Gospels are arranged in chronological order, in
                            the order in which they were written. The Tradition
                            is that Mathew's was addressed to the Aramaic-Syriac
                            speaking Jewish and Syrian Christians, Luke to the
                            Greek speaking Christians and Mark to the Latin
                            speaking Christians.

                            It is always a mistake to subvert theology to
                            philosophy. It is always a mistake to subvert God to
                            theology. Dogmas are boundaries; they tell us where
                            to go, where not to go. But dogmas are not God,
                            statements about God are not God. ONLY GOD IS GOD.
                            God is Father-Jesus-Spirit, One in Essence and
                            undivided.
                            In Him,
                            Steve
                            --- Edward Moore <emoore@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Steve,
                            >
                            > > God the Son became man, He became a Jewish man.
                            > His
                            > > Person is God the Son but he has a human nature-
                            > male
                            > > and Jewish Semitic Caucasian .
                            >
                            > This statement is theologically unsound. The
                            > Orthodox Church Fathers
                            > unanimously hold that Christ was a single person
                            > (hupostasis) possessing two
                            > natures, divine and human. His human nature was not
                            > the specific,
                            > individual nature of a single man; rather, as
                            > God-man, the New Adam, Christ
                            > united the totality of human nature with divinity in
                            > His single hupostasis.
                            > You are, of course, correct that the God-man existed
                            > in the 'person'
                            > (prosopon) of a Jewish man at a particular time in
                            > history, but as St.
                            > Athanasius affirms (in his De incarnatione), He
                            > never stopped functioning as
                            > the Logos holding the universe together by the power
                            > of His divine will. We
                            > know from the New Testament that Christ unites all
                            > of humanity in His
                            > person, so that we are no longer able to make
                            > distinctions between Jew and
                            > Greek (Gentile), male and female, slave and free,
                            > etc. Further, as the
                            > Epistle to the Hebrews tells us, Christ is eternally
                            > the same. He never
                            > actually became a Jewish man; He simply assumed the
                            > role of one for the
                            > purpose of establishing the Kingdom of God and the
                            > New Coveneant in a manner
                            > that transcends ethnic division. This He could not
                            > have accomplished, I
                            > posit, if He did not possess the totality of human
                            > nature -- including Jews
                            > but all other races as well -- in His person.
                            >
                            > Perhaps we will understand each other better if we
                            > invoke the ancient
                            > Sophistic distinction between nature (phusis) and
                            > convention (nomos). Can
                            > we agree that Christ was a Jew by covnention, but
                            > not by nature?
                            >
                            > > The first Gospel to be written was Mathew which
                            > was
                            > > written in Aranmaic Syrian as it was addressed to
                            > > Aramaic speaking Syrian and Jewish Christians.
                            >
                            > This is incorrect. The first Gospel to be written
                            > was Mark, and the
                            > language of composition was Greek. I know of no
                            > archaeological or
                            > manuscript evidence supporting the theory that the
                            > Gospels were originally
                            > composed in Aramaic, or any other language but
                            > Greek. Cf. Paul N. Tarazi,
                            > _The New Testament: Introduction_, vol. 1, Paul and
                            > Mark (Crestwood, NY: St.
                            > Vladimir's Seminary Press 1999). On the original
                            > language of the Gospels
                            > consult the various studies by Jaroslav Pelikan, for
                            > example.
                            >
                            > That said, as an editor of the Orthodox journal
                            > _Theandros_, I invite you,
                            > Steve, or anyone interested to submit an article
                            > arguing in favor of a
                            > theory of original Aramaic composition. Please see
                            > the link in my signature
                            > for information on submitting, should you be so
                            > inclined.
                            >
                            > In Christ,
                            >
                            > Edward
                            >
                            > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                            > Edward Moore, S.T.L., Ph.D. (candidate)
                            > St. Elias School of Orthodox Theology
                            > E-mail: emoore@...
                            > Homepage: www.theandros.com/emoore
                            >
                            > Theandros: An Online Journal of
                            > Orthodox Christian Theology and
                            > Philosophy
                            > www.theandros.com
                            > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            >
                            > ----------
                            > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
                            > to anger."
                            > (James 1:19)
                            > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >





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                          • Steve Dennehy
                            Thomas, We are not discussing ethnicity, we are discussing the Person of Lord Jesus Christ--the point of the Syrian Orthodox Church and of any believing
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 8 4:57 PM
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                              Thomas,

                              We are not discussing ethnicity, we are discussing the
                              Person of Lord Jesus Christ--the point of the Syrian
                              Orthodox Church and of any believing Christian.
                              Steve
                              --- Thomas P <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:
                              > I think this forum should encourage messages related
                              > to Syriac
                              > resources and Orthodox church in general. Issues
                              > about ethnicity etc.
                              > can be discussed on other relevant forums.
                              >
                              > - Thomas
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              >
                              > ----------
                              > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
                              > to anger."
                              > (James 1:19)
                              > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              > SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >





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                            • Rajesh George
                              Dear Brothers in Christ Do you feel that the most important aspect about our life is we need to inherit the kingdom of GOD? We need to enjoy the LOVE of Jesus
                              Message 14 of 14 , May 10 3:33 AM
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                                Dear Brothers in Christ

                                            Do you feel that the most important aspect about our life is we need to inherit the kingdom of GOD ?  We need to enjoy the LOVE of Jesus in our practical lifes.

                                That’s is most important for us than about the theological aspects  of  our Lord.

                                 

                                Thanks for all

                                 


                                From: Steve Dennehy [mailto:svjd@...]
                                Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 5:25 AM
                                To: SOR-Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [SORForum] Jesus is a Jew

                                 

                                Edward,
                                Jesus, from His conception in an egg in the womb of
                                the All-Holy Virgin Miriam is Spirit-Soul-Body, as are
                                all human persons.
                                His Spirit is His Person, His "I" (God the
                                Son/Word/Image), eternal and Divine.
                                His Soul is  perfect universal, but at the same time
                                is unique and individual.
                                His Body is male and ethnically Jewish Semitic
                                Caucasian.
                                He is One Lord Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ).

                                You state this correctly when you say He is a single
                                hypostasis (Person).

                                Your statement that"He never actually became a Jewish
                                man, He just assumed the role of one for the purpose
                                of establishing the Kingdom of God ..."   strikes me as
                                Nestorian and Gnostic.  You seem to be denying the
                                Incarnation altogether.  I don't undertsand how you
                                could read St. Athanasius and come to that conclusion.

                                The tradition in the Church from ancient times is that
                                the Gospels are arranged in chronological order, in
                                the order in which they were written.  The Tradition
                                is that Mathew's was addressed to the Aramaic-Syriac
                                speaking Jewish and Syrian Christians, Luke to the
                                Greek speaking Christians and Mark to the Latin
                                speaking Christians.

                                It is always a mistake to subvert theology to
                                philosophy.  It is always a mistake to subvert God to
                                theology.  Dogmas are boundaries; they tell us where
                                to go, where not to go. But dogmas are not God,
                                statements about God are not God. ONLY GOD IS GOD.
                                God is Father-Jesus-Spirit, One in Essence and
                                undivided.
                                In Him,
                                Steve
                                --- Edward Moore <emoore@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Steve,
                                >
                                > > God the Son became man, He became a Jewish man.
                                > His
                                > > Person is God the Son but he has a human nature-
                                > male
                                > > and  Jewish Semitic Caucasian .
                                >
                                > This statement is theologically unsound.  The
                                > Orthodox Church Fathers
                                > unanimously hold that Christ was a single person
                                > (hupostasis) possessing two
                                > natures, divine and human.  His human nature was not
                                > the specific,
                                > individual nature of a single man; rather, as
                                > God-man, the New Adam, Christ
                                > united the totality of human nature with divinity in
                                > His single hupostasis.
                                > You are, of course, correct that the God-man existed
                                > in the 'person'
                                > (prosopon) of a Jewish man at a particular time in
                                > history, but as St.
                                > Athanasius affirms (in his De incarnatione), He
                                > never stopped functioning as
                                > the Logos holding the universe together by the power
                                > of His divine will.  We
                                > know from the New Testament that Christ unites all
                                > of humanity in His
                                > person, so that we are no longer able to make
                                > distinctions between Jew and
                                > Greek (Gentile), male and female, slave and free,
                                > etc.  Further, as the
                                > Epistle to the Hebrews tells us, Christ is eternally
                                > the same.  He never
                                > actually became a Jewish man; He simply assumed the
                                > role of one for the
                                > purpose of establishing the Kingdom of God and the
                                > New Coveneant in a manner
                                > that transcends ethnic division.  This He could not
                                > have accomplished, I
                                > posit, if He did not possess the totality of human
                                > nature -- including Jews
                                > but all other races as well -- in His person.
                                >
                                > Perhaps we will understand each other better if we
                                > invoke the ancient
                                > Sophistic distinction between nature (phusis) and
                                > convention (nomos).  Can
                                > we agree that Christ was a Jew by covnention, but
                                > not by nature?
                                >
                                > > The first Gospel to be written was Mathew which
                                > was
                                > > written in Aranmaic Syrian as it was addressed to
                                > > Aramaic speaking Syrian and Jewish Christians.
                                >
                                > This is incorrect.  The first Gospel to be written
                                > was Mark, and the
                                > language of composition was Greek.  I know of no
                                > archaeological or
                                > manuscript evidence supporting the theory that the
                                > Gospels were originally
                                > composed in Aramaic, or any other language but
                                > Greek.  Cf. Paul N. Tarazi,
                                > _The New Testament: Introduction_, vol. 1, Paul and
                                > Mark ( Crestwood , NY : St.
                                > Vladimir 's Seminary Press 1999).  On the original
                                > language of the Gospels
                                > consult the various studies by Jaroslav Pelikan, for
                                > example.
                                >
                                > That said, as an editor of the Orthodox journal
                                > _Theandros_, I invite you,
                                > Steve, or anyone interested to submit an article
                                > arguing in favor of a
                                > theory of original Aramaic composition.  Please see
                                > the link in my signature
                                > for information on submitting, should you be so
                                > inclined.
                                >
                                > In Christ,
                                >
                                > Edward
                                >
                                > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                > Edward Moore, S.T.L., Ph.D. (candidate)
                                > St. Elias School of Orthodox Theology
                                > E-mail: emoore@...
                                > Homepage: www.theandros.com/emoore
                                >
                                > Theandros: An Online Journal of
                                > Orthodox Christian Theology and
                                > Philosophy
                                > www.theandros.com
                                > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                >
                                > ----------
                                > "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow
                                > to anger."
                                > (James 1:19)
                                > Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >      SOR-Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >

                                >



                                     
                                           
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                                ----------
                                "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger."
                                (James 1:19)
                                Syriac Orthodox Resources: http://sor.cua.edu




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