Re: Position of Patriarch
- Dear Shri Mathews, There is no need to worry about all these. As long
as we are steadfast in our confession of First three Ecumenical
councils, Holy fathers will be on our side. So no need worry the least
about this. We must not mix our faith with faith of other churches.
Armenian Church, when they consecrated their largest church in Armenia
invited our Catholicos. Bava went their with our delegation and
communed there. One thing to be noted here. Coptic bishops went to
Bava to say farewell. Two Syrian bishops did not go to Bava.
Regarding our relationship with Syrian Church, some of you justify
your faction, that every thing your faction did was the right thing.
This would require that every thing the other faction did was wrong.
Thus, you do not have the patience to understand the feelings of other
side or atleast consider them as human as you are.
Ethiopian Patriarch Theophilos (martyr) dedicated one of the thrones
of the largest church in Addis Ababa to Indian Church in the name of
...We cannot just sit in one corner of the world and say that one faction is always wrong. We need to list down the things that went wrong on both sides and come up with a reconciliation.
I studied Sunday school only in the Jacobite faction and was the best
outgoing student in that Sunday school. From the Orthodox side, I
studied OVBS. Both sides greatly helped me. Negative feelings started
in me only because of some rich Chevaliers who considered us inferior,
being orthodox members attending Jacobite parish. My father told me to
ignore such people and consider the Church as One. My father is an
ordinary person with out any involvement in administration of parish
and a person who prays every morning and evening observing every lent.
So, whom should I trust, Chevaliers or my father? Unfortunately these
are the people looking for dividing the church. Unless we study these
people and their feelings, it is difficult to solve the problem. We
ignore these people (Orthodox side) or blindly accept them (Jacobite
side) as the defenders of truth.
We riducle Mar Ougen and never stress that he was theologian and
scholar of great capacity. This is our problem, we innocently don't
know how to appreciate our God given capabilities and the civilization
in which God placed us to grow as a Church. We have a tendency to be
submissive. I am sure Mar Ougen knows the theological aspects of the
matter and was of course a great confessor of Orthodox faith. Beyond
this what are we seeking in our Orthodox religion?
A Christian ought to produce more out whatever he got, little or
great. What ever we received for Syrian Church of the past must be
allowed to grow.....
...My happiness would be in the unity of my own family members, that we
can worship in the same church with out keeping hard feelings.
My feeling is that Patriarch knows the theology very well and he knows
that there is need for only One Holy Synod. But some people in our
Church is not allowing the Patriarch to do what he thinks is most
--- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., Mathews Abraham wrote:
> Dear Member Mr. Thomas Pal
> You are again misleading the members of this forum.
> Your first Catholicose Mor Augen was ordained by the
> Patriarch of Antioch and there is no history of any
> Coptic bishop or Patriarch ever ordaining a malankara
> boshop. You people had invited a coptic bishop for
> your seminary functio just to belittle the Syrian
> Orthodox laity in kerala.On many occasions you had
> brought and given big receptions to some unknown
> bishops from the Assyrisn and Chaldean churches just
> to show your people that many foreign patriarchs are
> available for future ordination of your Catholicose.
- Mathew B,
Please read the following FAQ about "What shall I do to be saved?" .
This is prepared by Rev Kurian Kaniamparambil Kor-Episcopa and Mor
--- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., Mathew B wrote:
> I had a question for the group. What should our answer
> be as a Malankara syriac orthodox Christian to the
> question: ARE YOU SAVED? Does our church teach of an
> instantaneous salvation? Can we say that we are saved
> before the judgment day?
- Doubts of Mathew in SOCM forum Reply to [SOCM-FORUM]
Digest Number 279, Message: 3, Date: Mon, 22 Jul
2002 23:06:54 -0000
Question 1:- Is there anything in the canons or laws
or agreements that none of the Metrapolitains from Malankara
can get elected as Patriarch of Antioch ?
Answer:- . According to the canons, any from the Church can
become the Patriarch if he is elected. In the long history of
the Holy Church, many of the Catholicoses (Mapfriyonos) of the
East had later elevated to the highest order of the 'Patriarch',
the supreme head of the Holy Church. This itself is an ample
proof to the fact that the Patriarch is of superior order to
the catholicose, which contradicts some of the recent private
claims in Kerala that Catholicose & Patriarch are equal in status.
Question 2:- Do all the Bishops from Malankara get to vote in an
election to elect a Patriarch. Answer:- All the Metropolitans
(Arch bishops) have the right to vote in the election of a Patriarch.
This part is very clearly explained even in the modified constitution
of the universal Church and was available in Internet until recently.
The printed version is available in the Patriarchal cathedral and some
other centres. There is also another special clause in the said
constitution that the MetropoIitans under the direct juridscition
of Patriarch must compulsorly retire (except the Patriarch & Catholicose)
at the age of 75. Also all the bishops, must submit his property
for the Church. Even the bishops of Simhasana Churches & EAE in
India must abide by these laws. But in Malankara which follows a
separate constitution, this has not been implemented yet.
Here it is the local Church which have to decide on the matters
regarding the retirement age etc. as they have an independant
constitution. Earlier Thomas Athanasius of Kandanad (who is now
in Methran faction) himself has requested for the immediate
retirement of all the bishops (in both factions), including
Catholicose Mathews II of Methran faction, who were then above 75.
This news has been published in all the news papers in 1995; at
that time he was in the Jacobite Syrian Church.
Question 3:-. Is it true that none of the Metrans from the
Malankara Church are invited for the Synod at Antioch ? I was
told that in one of the important Synods recently where the name
of church was changed from Syrian Orthodox to Syriac Orthrodox
none of our bishops from Malankara participated nor were invited.
Answer:- There are some false rumours spread by vested interested
parties, that the Indian bishops are not invited always. In reality
they are contacted when important decsions concerning the whole
Church is to be taken. In the case of name change, the situation
was very different. It has to be noted that the change in name was
implemnted only in America which is under the direct juridisction
of the Patriarch. (See the concerned news in SOR news page). This
name change is not applicable even in Syria, other middle east
countries or in India.
Question 4:- Is it true that Patriarch Mor Abdulla II, had converted
to Roman Catholic Church and he returned to the mother church only
when Mor Abdul Messiah lost the firman from the Turkish Sultan so that
he could become the next Patriarch ?
Answer:- While it is true that Patriarch Abdulla II was there at
RC churches for some time during the time of great persecutions
as 'asylum' (details will be explained later), but he had never
converted to that Church as claimed by my respected brothers in
opposite faction, it is just to confuse ordinary people. Nowadays
the opposite faction are cooking up such stories and tries to
popularise it just like they manipulated the original version
of "Madopadesasaram" written by Vattasseril Thirumeni. Now it
is the manipulated version of the original text they are teaching
in their Sunday Schools. In the original it is clearly written
that it is the Patriarch of Antioch who is the supreme head of the
Malankara Church. But in the republishing versions after 1970's
they have changed it to "Catholicose is the supreme head of the
Malankara Church". We will shortly publish the two versions in
With RegardsFrom Malankara Voice.
- Dear All,
As per Hindu beliefs this Kaliyug. They say everything will happen
ulta (wrong way).
In the last days, as told by Jesus, wrong will rule. Son will rise
What is happening in Malankara church is not much different.
Catholicose and Bishops rebel against the father Patriarch
Another example is -there was one thirumeni as pious and holy as
Parumala Thirumeni. That Thirumrni( Late H.G.Paulose Mor Kurilos)
was removed from the post of Malankara Metropolitan and cast out
from Old seminary (Pazhaya seminary) by Vattseril metran. Later
to seal the chapter completely, vattaseril metran sent His gunta
anapappay to kill the metropolitan. But Metropolitan escaped
Miraculously, but Ana pappy was killed. Now Vattseril is becoming
saint, being followed by anapappy. Do any of us Remember the
saint Kurilos thirumeni?
This is Kaliyug!
- Dear All,
There is an expert in our forum who asks questions
(innocuously innocentway)about church history and
standing of our HH among other world churches etc
to confuse our readers. At the same time he writes
in Indian orthodox forum vociferously about two
partiarchate being in Syria, orthodox Partiarch has
less number of followers , our relation with Syria
is only after 16th centaury etc (V.C.Samuel follower).
He goes to Ethiopia/erithria to quote the history and
statistics(definitely He is a VCS follower ,Ethiopia was
VCS his hunting ground)But one thing this gentle man
pretends not to remember is it is Syriac orthodox (our)
Patriarch who has participated and is recognised by the
3 holy synods. Also Malankara church was only related to
Syrian orthodox partiarchate from where we inherited the
taksa, language, dress, kaipeppu and every thing. Pope have
made parallel partiarchate in Syria as Catholic Church
has grown bigger politically due to the growth of western
powers. Their intention was to prove they are the supreme
head and all others are subordinates. Syria being the gateway
to ancient Rome many ethnic groups like Armenians, Greeks etc
came to Syria. Later they also established their own
partiarchates. A similar thing you can see in Bethelhem, where
all religious groups have representatives. That will not reduce
the position ans status of our HH.
Why should we worry or compare ourselves to other Popes/Patriarchs?
We have a great and distinct heredity-our HH is seated in the throne
of St Peter. We shall worry about our church and our father (HH).
If some ones father is richer and stronger, we can not denounce
our father. That is why our church stood separately surviving
Portugese, British influences last 2000 years in Malankara.
I am proud of being Jacobite,I respect our HH than Pope.If our HH
says you should not respect Pope,we will stop respecting Pope.
We are not bothered if catholics make half the population on earth.
(Is increase in number is so important that we have to think those
are more in number is greater than us?
Muslims in Kerala has gone up from 18% to 30%. Christains have come
down to 20 or less From 24% percent. Does that mean Islam is a
better religion than Christianity?
- Thank you very much for the very detailed clarification.
It is very useful.
--- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Malankara Voice.cjb.net" wrote:
> Doubts of Mathew in SOCM forum Reply to [SOCM-FORUM]
> Digest Number 279, Message: 3, Date: Mon, 22 Jul
> 2002 23:06:54 -0000
> Question 1:- Is there anything in the canons or laws
> or agreements that none of the Metrapolitains from Malankara
> can get elected as Patriarch of Antioch ?
> Answer:- . According to the canons, any from the Church can
> become the Patriarch if he is elected. In the long history of
> the Holy Church, many of the Catholicoses (Mapfriyonos) of the
- Click the following links for the latest from MalankaraHectic Preparations started at the Patriarchal Cathedral of Damascus for the historical enthronement ceremony of the Catholicose of the Universal Syrian Church - http://www.geocities.com/malankarav2/Mangalam_24_july_02.htmTo read more click below
Sell you car, by placing a classified ad on Yahoo India Autos . It's Free!!
- Consecration of Mor Dionysius Thomas as Catholicose of
Malankara Jacobite Church will take place on Friday,
26th July 2002 at 9.00 A.M (Indian time 11.00 A.M) in
Patriarchal Cathedral, Damascus, Syria.
The Supreme Head of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church,
His Holiness Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, Prince Patriarch
of Antioch and All the East will be the chief celebrant. The
Syrian Orthodox Bishops from Malankara, Syria, Sweden, Netherlands,
Germany, Lebanon, Jerusalem and Australia will be the co-celebrants.
Indian ambassador to Syria, representatives of Syrian Government
will be attending the Holy ceremony as gusts.
His beatitude will arrive at 10.30 AM Cochin international airport
via Dubai & Bombay on 27th Saturday. A warm welcome by the Malankara
church representatives will be given at the Airport. H.B will be
escorted by many vehicles to Kottayam for the grand reception of the
church. The reception will be held at Thirunnakkara Ground on the
evening and will be preside by the Chief Metropolitan of the East
Mor Cleemis. Many sister church, political, government dignitaries
will attend the public function.
Mor Dionysius Thomas was chosen to be the Catholicose at the church
delegates meeting held at Puthencurizu, Kerala On July 6th, 2002,
and ratified by the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church Synod on 22nd
July 2002. For a brief biography of H.B please visit
With the consecration of the new Catholicose, the split in the
Malankara Syrian Church is now formal. Of the total two million
followers of the Syrian Church, the Independent Indian Orthodox
faction has nearly 1.0 million, with 1,244 churches, while the
Patriarch faction has a total of 944 churches which include
majority of the historical and traditional churches, with 900,000.
- Dear Mr.THOMAS,
When Maman Mappilai and vattaseril metran conspired to
establish A new catholicose by a suspended Patriarch
they thought About future generations?
Your present catholicose and bishops try to grab our
churches Or if that is not possible close such churches?
Is it for the well being of christiandum?The whole orthodox
set up at Kottayam live In falsehood.We dond't to be
part of that
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:28:57 -0000
Subject: Re: Position of Patriarch
There is no cheating here. Entire Oriental Orthodox and Byzantine
Orthodox know the situation in India. There have been many visits
of Oriental and Byzantine Orthodox primates to the Malankara
Church. No Orthodox church wants 2 million of India's Orthodox
community to merge with Vatican or join Protestants. They all want to
see one Holy Synod and one head of Holy Synod in India. The problem
is that we are not ready for it. We are fighting because of our
typical keralite inferiority complexes and our inherent Keralite
natures. It doesn't bring any good for the future generation.
When are we ready for Orthodox Church leaving aside all our feelings
which we nurtured from childhood? Feelings are required, but
considering it as the ultimate truth is not a good sign.
- Dear members.
From very reliable sources, as the consecration of Catholicose
is finalized, Devalokam Church has no option other than looking
for a parallel Patriarch. They are daring to amend the 1st Dubden
due to legal and spiritual fear. Above all the backlash from
A hectic back door telephone contacts and discussions are ongoing
to make a split in the Universal Syrian Church and create a parallel
Patriarch for Devalokam Church. Unfortunately these task taken and
lead by the backstabbers of our church. They are utilizing their
intellectual skills money time and above all the priesthood which
they got from the Throne of Antioch and that time contacts. By the
grace of God it did not materialize. Don�t think they are ldroped the
idea, just waiting to get chance and looking for an apt opportunity.
If they are unsuccessful, the alternate option is also under
considerations. For this they are going to use the base of ordination
of �Mar Thoma 1�.
Dr. Rev. O. Thomas, a young theologian and well known Gospel preacher
of Indian Orthodox Church, through their official internet magazine
�Malankara Deepam� asked to elevate two bishops as Patriarchs
(please note he is asking for two note one) for Devalokam Church.
One for Kerala and other for outside Kerala. If that�s going to
materialize, Is this parallel Patriarch is under the Catholicose
or Catholicose is under the parallel Patriarch? If Catholicose is
under the Patriarch, then why all these drama staged. I don�t know
who that lucky Methran is?
Another IOC member Mr. Thomas Pal (I think this gentle man is member
of this forum too) wrote in IOC forum (Actualy he spelled the offcial
consideration of Devalokam Church)
In the case of Coptic Church, in certain situations, 12 priests could
jointly ordain a bishop. Because of this, some historians say that Mar
Ahatallah, who came to India and authorized 12 Indian priests to ordain
"Mar Thoma 1" as Metran of Malankara, was sent by the Alexandrian Coptic
Church. Our churches earlier sent delegates to Antioch and Alexandria for
help against latinization.
There is also an Alexandrian Canon which says that 12 bishops can
elevate a Patriarch (11 bishops and one Patriarch). Alexandrian Church
kept the number of bishops of Ethiopian church as 11 or less, so that
Ethiopians would not crown a canonical Patriarch.
St. Cyril the 6th (Kyrillos V1) was a saintly Patriarch of the Coptic
Church. He was also a great reformer. Spiritual growth of modern Coptic
church is largely attributed to him. He created general bishops like
"bishop for youth", "bishop of education" etc. (Present Patriarch
Pope Shenouda was bishop of Education). Emperor Haile Selassie of
Ethiopia negotiated with Abba Kyrillos V1 to raise Ethiopian Church
to the status of a Patriarchate. This required 12 bishops. Patriarch
Kyrillos agreed and Coptic Church ordained more bishops and elevated
Abune Baselios of Ethiopian Church as the Patriarch of Ethiopian
Church in 1959.
Now Devalokam Church and its leadership are in a crazy mood. To trap
poor Jacobite, last week they were planning to send �Kalpana� to all
the churches, stating that, H.H. Catholicose is realize his mistake
and he is pleading to the Holy father for the pardon. Most probably
this �Tricky Kalpana� may read in all the churches by next Sunday.
May be due to the current unexpected situation, they may even recall
I am really sorry for that church, now they lost their moral too.
May the God show them the correct path.
Aji Thomas David
- HISTORY IS REPATINGOne more Kandanadu Bishop is comming on�the post of Catholicose Of The East.Mor Dionasius the present Kandanadu Bishop will be our next Catholicose.Murimattom Mor Ivaniose who was the first bishop of Kandanadu appointed by H.H.Peter III�Patriarch in 1877.Later� Mor Ivaniose joined in Metran�group and Mor Abdulmasia (excommunicated Patriarch) ordain him as a Catholicose/Maphriana at Niranam Church�in 1912.Mor Augen Themotius(ordained as bishop by Moran Elias III�Bava in 1927)�was the second Kandanadu Bishop.Later he joined in�Metran Group.After �the church peace in 1964 Mor Yakub III Patriarch ordained him as a catholicose. In 1975 the Universal synod excommunicate him and Ordain the Kandanadu Bishop Paulose�Mor Phelaxinose(H.B.Baselius Paulose II)� (who was the Kandandu bishop from 1952.Third Kandanadu Bishop) as new Catholicose.In 1996 Mor Baselius Paulose II Catholicose� Bava Passed away.After�that Mor�Dionasius got the addtional Charge of Kandanadu.Now�thirumeni will become as Catholicose of the East. Long Live our new H.B.�CATHOLICOSE BASELIUS MARTHOMA���I�....OXIOSE ..OXIOSE...OXIOSE Let us give a thanks to God.Biju Kurian Mathews Muscat