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Re: Position of Patriarch

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  • thomas_pa1
    Dear Shri Mathews, There is no need to worry about all these. As long as we are steadfast in our confession of First three Ecumenical councils, Holy fathers
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 22, 2002
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      Dear Shri Mathews, There is no need to worry about all these. As long
      as we are steadfast in our confession of First three Ecumenical
      councils, Holy fathers will be on our side. So no need worry the least
      about this. We must not mix our faith with faith of other churches.
      Armenian Church, when they consecrated their largest church in Armenia
      invited our Catholicos. Bava went their with our delegation and
      communed there. One thing to be noted here. Coptic bishops went to
      Bava to say farewell. Two Syrian bishops did not go to Bava.

      Regarding our relationship with Syrian Church, some of you justify
      your faction, that every thing your faction did was the right thing.
      This would require that every thing the other faction did was wrong.
      Thus, you do not have the patience to understand the feelings of other
      side or atleast consider them as human as you are.

      Ethiopian Patriarch Theophilos (martyr) dedicated one of the thrones
      of the largest church in Addis Ababa to Indian Church in the name of
      St. Thomas.

      ...We cannot just sit in one corner of the world and say that one faction is always wrong. We need to list down the things that went wrong on both sides and come up with a reconciliation.

      I studied Sunday school only in the Jacobite faction and was the best
      outgoing student in that Sunday school. From the Orthodox side, I
      studied OVBS. Both sides greatly helped me. Negative feelings started
      in me only because of some rich Chevaliers who considered us inferior,
      being orthodox members attending Jacobite parish. My father told me to
      ignore such people and consider the Church as One. My father is an
      ordinary person with out any involvement in administration of parish
      and a person who prays every morning and evening observing every lent.
      So, whom should I trust, Chevaliers or my father? Unfortunately these
      are the people looking for dividing the church. Unless we study these
      people and their feelings, it is difficult to solve the problem. We
      ignore these people (Orthodox side) or blindly accept them (Jacobite
      side) as the defenders of truth.

      We riducle Mar Ougen and never stress that he was theologian and
      scholar of great capacity. This is our problem, we innocently don't
      know how to appreciate our God given capabilities and the civilization
      in which God placed us to grow as a Church. We have a tendency to be
      submissive. I am sure Mar Ougen knows the theological aspects of the
      matter and was of course a great confessor of Orthodox faith. Beyond
      this what are we seeking in our Orthodox religion?

      A Christian ought to produce more out whatever he got, little or
      great. What ever we received for Syrian Church of the past must be
      allowed to grow.....

      ...My happiness would be in the unity of my own family members, that we
      can worship in the same church with out keeping hard feelings.

      My feeling is that Patriarch knows the theology very well and he knows
      that there is need for only One Holy Synod. But some people in our
      Church is not allowing the Patriarch to do what he thinks is most
      appropriate.

      -Thomas

      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., Mathews Abraham wrote:
      > Dear Member Mr. Thomas Pal
      > You are again misleading the members of this forum.
      > Your first Catholicose Mor Augen was ordained by the
      > Patriarch of Antioch and there is no history of any
      > Coptic bishop or Patriarch ever ordaining a malankara
      > boshop. You people had invited a coptic bishop for
      > your seminary functio just to belittle the Syrian
      > Orthodox laity in kerala.On many occasions you had
      > brought and given big receptions to some unknown
      > bishops from the Assyrisn and Chaldean churches just
      > to show your people that many foreign patriarchs are
      > available for future ordination of your Catholicose.
    • dhinuus
      Mathew B, Please read the following FAQ about What shall I do to be saved? . This is prepared by Rev Kurian Kaniamparambil Kor-Episcopa and Mor Osthatious.
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 23, 2002
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        Mathew B,
        Please read the following FAQ about "What shall I do to be saved?" .
        This is prepared by Rev Kurian Kaniamparambil Kor-Episcopa and Mor
        Osthatious.

        http://www.stignatious.com/salvation.htm

        Mathew G,


        --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., Mathew B wrote:
        > I had a question for the group. What should our answer
        > be as a Malankara syriac orthodox Christian to the
        > question: ARE YOU SAVED? Does our church teach of an
        > instantaneous salvation? Can we say that we are saved
        > before the judgment day?
        >
        > Mathew
      • Malankara Voice.cjb.net
        Doubts of Mathew in SOCM forum Reply to [SOCM-FORUM] Digest Number 279, Message: 3, Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:06:54 -0000 Question 1:- Is there anything in
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 23, 2002
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          Doubts of Mathew in SOCM forum Reply to [SOCM-FORUM]
          Digest Number 279, Message: 3, Date: Mon, 22 Jul
          2002 23:06:54 -0000

          Question 1:- Is there anything in the canons or laws
          or agreements that none of the Metrapolitains from Malankara
          can get elected as Patriarch of Antioch ?

          Answer:- . According to the canons, any from the Church can
          become the Patriarch if he is elected. In the long history of
          the Holy Church, many of the Catholicoses (Mapfriyonos) of the
          East had later elevated to the highest order of the 'Patriarch',
          the supreme head of the Holy Church. This itself is an ample
          proof to the fact that the Patriarch is of superior order to
          the catholicose, which contradicts some of the recent private
          claims in Kerala that Catholicose & Patriarch are equal in status.

          Question 2:- Do all the Bishops from Malankara get to vote in an
          election to elect a Patriarch. Answer:- All the Metropolitans
          (Arch bishops) have the right to vote in the election of a Patriarch.
          This part is very clearly explained even in the modified constitution
          of the universal Church and was available in Internet until recently.
          The printed version is available in the Patriarchal cathedral and some
          other centres. There is also another special clause in the said
          constitution that the MetropoIitans under the direct juridscition
          of Patriarch must compulsorly retire (except the Patriarch & Catholicose)
          at the age of 75. Also all the bishops, must submit his property
          for the Church. Even the bishops of Simhasana Churches & EAE in
          India must abide by these laws. But in Malankara which follows a
          separate constitution, this has not been implemented yet.
          Here it is the local Church which have to decide on the matters
          regarding the retirement age etc. as they have an independant
          constitution. Earlier Thomas Athanasius of Kandanad (who is now
          in Methran faction) himself has requested for the immediate
          retirement of all the bishops (in both factions), including
          Catholicose Mathews II of Methran faction, who were then above 75.
          This news has been published in all the news papers in 1995; at
          that time he was in the Jacobite Syrian Church.

          Question 3:-. Is it true that none of the Metrans from the
          Malankara Church are invited for the Synod at Antioch ? I was
          told that in one of the important Synods recently where the name
          of church was changed from Syrian Orthodox to Syriac Orthrodox
          none of our bishops from Malankara participated nor were invited.

          Answer:- There are some false rumours spread by vested interested
          parties, that the Indian bishops are not invited always. In reality
          they are contacted when important decsions concerning the whole
          Church is to be taken. In the case of name change, the situation
          was very different. It has to be noted that the change in name was
          implemnted only in America which is under the direct juridisction
          of the Patriarch. (See the concerned news in SOR news page). This
          name change is not applicable even in Syria, other middle east
          countries or in India.

          Question 4:- Is it true that Patriarch Mor Abdulla II, had converted
          to Roman Catholic Church and he returned to the mother church only
          when Mor Abdul Messiah lost the firman from the Turkish Sultan so that
          he could become the next Patriarch ?

          Answer:- While it is true that Patriarch Abdulla II was there at
          RC churches for some time during the time of great persecutions
          as 'asylum' (details will be explained later), but he had never
          converted to that Church as claimed by my respected brothers in
          opposite faction, it is just to confuse ordinary people. Nowadays
          the opposite faction are cooking up such stories and tries to
          popularise it just like they manipulated the original version
          of "Madopadesasaram" written by Vattasseril Thirumeni. Now it
          is the manipulated version of the original text they are teaching
          in their Sunday Schools. In the original it is clearly written
          that it is the Patriarch of Antioch who is the supreme head of the
          Malankara Church. But in the republishing versions after 1970's
          they have changed it to "Catholicose is the supreme head of the
          Malankara Church". We will shortly publish the two versions in
          Malankara Voice.

          With RegardsFrom Malankara Voice.
        • V Thomas
          Dear All, As per Hindu beliefs this Kaliyug. They say everything will happen �����ulta����� (wrong way). In the last days, as told by Jesus, wrong will rule.
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 23, 2002
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            Dear All,
            As per Hindu beliefs this Kaliyug. They say everything will happen
            ‘ulta” (wrong way).

            In the last days, as told by Jesus, wrong will rule. Son will rise
            against father.

            What is happening in Malankara church is not much different.
            Catholicose and Bishops rebel against the father Patriarch
            Another example is -there was one thirumeni as pious and holy as
            Parumala Thirumeni. That Thirumrni( Late H.G.Paulose Mor Kurilos)
            was removed from the post of Malankara Metropolitan and cast out
            from Old seminary (Pazhaya seminary) by Vattseril metran. Later
            to seal the chapter completely, vattaseril metran sent His gunta
            anapappay to kill the metropolitan. But Metropolitan escaped
            Miraculously, but Ana pappy was killed. Now Vattseril is becoming
            saint, being followed by anapappy. Do any of us Remember the
            saint Kurilos thirumeni?
            This is Kaliyug!
            Love
            vmt
          • V Thomas
            Dear All, There is an expert in our forum who asks questions (innocuously innocentway)about church history and standing of our HH among other world churches
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 23, 2002
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              Dear All,
              There is an expert in our forum who asks questions
              (innocuously innocentway)about church history and
              standing of our HH among other world churches etc
              to confuse our readers. At the same time he writes
              in Indian orthodox forum vociferously about two
              partiarchate being in Syria, orthodox Partiarch has
              less number of followers , our relation with Syria
              is only after 16th centaury etc (V.C.Samuel follower).
              He goes to Ethiopia/erithria to quote the history and
              statistics(definitely He is a VCS follower ,Ethiopia was
              VCS his hunting ground)But one thing this gentle man
              pretends not to remember is it is Syriac orthodox (our)
              Patriarch who has participated and is recognised by the
              3 holy synods. Also Malankara church was only related to
              Syrian orthodox partiarchate from where we inherited the
              taksa, language, dress, kaipeppu and every thing. Pope have
              made parallel partiarchate in Syria as Catholic Church
              has grown bigger politically due to the growth of western
              powers. Their intention was to prove they are the supreme
              head and all others are subordinates. Syria being the gateway
              to ancient Rome many ethnic groups like Armenians, Greeks etc
              came to Syria. Later they also established their own
              partiarchates. A similar thing you can see in Bethelhem, where
              all religious groups have representatives. That will not reduce
              the position ans status of our HH.

              Why should we worry or compare ourselves to other Popes/Patriarchs?
              We have a great and distinct heredity-our HH is seated in the throne
              of St Peter. We shall worry about our church and our father (HH).
              If some ones father is richer and stronger, we can not denounce
              our father. That is why our church stood separately surviving
              Portugese, British influences last 2000 years in Malankara.
              I am proud of being Jacobite,I respect our HH than Pope.If our HH
              says you should not respect Pope,we will stop respecting Pope.
              We are not bothered if catholics make half the population on earth.
              (Is increase in number is so important that we have to think those
              are more in number is greater than us?

              Muslims in Kerala has gone up from 18% to 30%. Christains have come
              down to 20 or less From 24% percent. Does that mean Islam is a
              better religion than Christianity?
              Love
              vmt
            • dhinuus
              Thank you very much for the very detailed clarification. It is very useful.
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 23, 2002
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                Thank you very much for the very detailed clarification.
                It is very useful.


                --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Malankara Voice.cjb.net" wrote:
                > Doubts of Mathew in SOCM forum Reply to [SOCM-FORUM]
                > Digest Number 279, Message: 3, Date: Mon, 22 Jul
                > 2002 23:06:54 -0000
                >
                > Question 1:- Is there anything in the canons or laws
                > or agreements that none of the Metrapolitains from Malankara
                > can get elected as Patriarch of Antioch ?
                >
                > Answer:- . According to the canons, any from the Church can
                > become the Patriarch if he is elected. In the long history of
                > the Holy Church, many of the Catholicoses (Mapfriyonos) of the
              • MalankaraVoice.cjb.net
                Click the following links for the latest from Malankara Hectic Preparations started at the Patriarchal Cathedral of Damascus for the historical enthronement
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 24, 2002
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                  Click the following links for the latest from Malankara
                   
                   
                  Hectic Preparations started at the Patriarchal Cathedral of Damascus for the historical enthronement ceremony of the Catholicose of the Universal Syrian Church http://www.geocities.com/malankarav2/Mangalam_24_july_02.htm
                   
                   
                  To read more click below
                   
                     


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                • Thomas Daniel
                  Consecration of Mor Dionysius Thomas as Catholicose of Malankara Jacobite Church will take place on Friday, 26th July 2002 at 9.00 A.M (Indian time 11.00 A.M)
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 24, 2002
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                    Consecration of Mor Dionysius Thomas as Catholicose of
                    Malankara Jacobite Church will take place on Friday,
                    26th July 2002 at 9.00 A.M (Indian time 11.00 A.M) in
                    Patriarchal Cathedral, Damascus, Syria.

                    The Supreme Head of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church,
                    His Holiness Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, Prince Patriarch
                    of Antioch and All the East will be the chief celebrant. The
                    Syrian Orthodox Bishops from Malankara, Syria, Sweden, Netherlands,
                    Germany, Lebanon, Jerusalem and Australia will be the co-celebrants.

                    Indian ambassador to Syria, representatives of Syrian Government
                    will be attending the Holy ceremony as gusts.

                    His beatitude will arrive at 10.30 AM Cochin international airport
                    via Dubai & Bombay on 27th Saturday. A warm welcome by the Malankara
                    church representatives will be given at the Airport. H.B will be
                    escorted by many vehicles to Kottayam for the grand reception of the
                    church. The reception will be held at Thirunnakkara Ground on the
                    evening and will be preside by the Chief Metropolitan of the East
                    Mor Cleemis. Many sister church, political, government dignitaries
                    will attend the public function.

                    Mor Dionysius Thomas was chosen to be the Catholicose at the church
                    delegates meeting held at Puthencurizu, Kerala On July 6th, 2002,
                    and ratified by the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church Synod on 22nd
                    July 2002. For a brief biography of H.B please visit
                    http://www.malankarachurch.org/PARUMALA/mordionysius.htm

                    With the consecration of the new Catholicose, the split in the
                    Malankara Syrian Church is now formal. Of the total two million
                    followers of the Syrian Church, the Independent Indian Orthodox
                    faction has nearly 1.0 million, with 1,244 churches, while the
                    Patriarch faction has a total of 944 churches which include
                    majority of the historical and traditional churches, with 900,000.
                  • V Thomas
                    Dear Mr.THOMAS, When Maman Mappilai and vattaseril metran conspired to establish A new catholicose by a suspended Patriarch they thought About future
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 24, 2002
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                      Dear Mr.THOMAS,
                      When Maman Mappilai and vattaseril metran conspired to
                      establish A new catholicose by a suspended Patriarch
                      they thought About future generations?

                      Your present catholicose and bishops try to grab our
                      churches Or if that is not possible close such churches?
                      Is it for the well being of christiandum?The whole orthodox
                      set up at Kottayam live In falsehood.We dond't to be
                      part of that
                      Love
                      vmt
                      -----Original Message-----

                      Message: 1
                      Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:28:57 -0000
                      From: "thomas_pa1"
                      Subject: Re: Position of Patriarch

                      There is no cheating here. Entire Oriental Orthodox and Byzantine
                      Orthodox know the situation in India. There have been many visits
                      of Oriental and Byzantine Orthodox primates to the Malankara
                      Church. No Orthodox church wants 2 million of India's Orthodox
                      community to merge with Vatican or join Protestants. They all want to
                      see one Holy Synod and one head of Holy Synod in India. The problem
                      is that we are not ready for it. We are fighting because of our
                      typical keralite inferiority complexes and our inherent Keralite
                      natures. It doesn't bring any good for the future generation.

                      When are we ready for Orthodox Church leaving aside all our feelings
                      which we nurtured from childhood? Feelings are required, but
                      considering it as the ultimate truth is not a good sign.

                      -Thomas
                    • Aji Thomas David
                      Dear members. From very reliable sources, as the consecration of Catholicose is finalized, Devalokam Church has no option other than looking for a parallel
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 24, 2002
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                        Dear members.

                        From very reliable sources, as the consecration of Catholicose
                        is finalized, Devalokam Church has no option other than looking
                        for a parallel Patriarch. They are daring to amend the 1st Dubden
                        due to legal and spiritual fear. Above all the backlash from
                        the laymen.

                        A hectic back door telephone contacts and discussions are ongoing
                        to make a split in the Universal Syrian Church and create a parallel
                        Patriarch for Devalokam Church. Unfortunately these task taken and
                        lead by the backstabbers of our church. They are utilizing their
                        intellectual skills money time and above all the priesthood which
                        they got from the Throne of Antioch and that time contacts. By the
                        grace of God it did not materialize. Don�t think they are ldroped the
                        idea, just waiting to get chance and looking for an apt opportunity.

                        If they are unsuccessful, the alternate option is also under
                        considerations. For this they are going to use the base of ordination
                        of �Mar Thoma 1�.

                        Dr. Rev. O. Thomas, a young theologian and well known Gospel preacher
                        of Indian Orthodox Church, through their official internet magazine
                        �Malankara Deepam� asked to elevate two bishops as Patriarchs
                        (please note he is asking for two note one) for Devalokam Church.
                        One for Kerala and other for outside Kerala. If that�s going to
                        materialize, Is this parallel Patriarch is under the Catholicose
                        or Catholicose is under the parallel Patriarch? If Catholicose is
                        under the Patriarch, then why all these drama staged. I don�t know
                        who that lucky Methran is?

                        Another IOC member Mr. Thomas Pal (I think this gentle man is member
                        of this forum too) wrote in IOC forum (Actualy he spelled the offcial
                        consideration of Devalokam Church)

                        In the case of Coptic Church, in certain situations, 12 priests could
                        jointly ordain a bishop. Because of this, some historians say that Mar
                        Ahatallah, who came to India and authorized 12 Indian priests to ordain
                        "Mar Thoma 1" as Metran of Malankara, was sent by the Alexandrian Coptic
                        Church. Our churches earlier sent delegates to Antioch and Alexandria for
                        help against latinization.

                        There is also an Alexandrian Canon which says that 12 bishops can
                        elevate a Patriarch (11 bishops and one Patriarch). Alexandrian Church
                        kept the number of bishops of Ethiopian church as 11 or less, so that
                        Ethiopians would not crown a canonical Patriarch.

                        St. Cyril the 6th (Kyrillos V1) was a saintly Patriarch of the Coptic
                        Church. He was also a great reformer. Spiritual growth of modern Coptic
                        church is largely attributed to him. He created general bishops like
                        "bishop for youth", "bishop of education" etc. (Present Patriarch
                        Pope Shenouda was bishop of Education). Emperor Haile Selassie of
                        Ethiopia negotiated with Abba Kyrillos V1 to raise Ethiopian Church
                        to the status of a Patriarchate. This required 12 bishops. Patriarch
                        Kyrillos agreed and Coptic Church ordained more bishops and elevated
                        Abune Baselios of Ethiopian Church as the Patriarch of Ethiopian
                        Church in 1959.

                        Now Devalokam Church and its leadership are in a crazy mood. To trap
                        poor Jacobite, last week they were planning to send �Kalpana� to all
                        the churches, stating that, H.H. Catholicose is realize his mistake
                        and he is pleading to the Holy father for the pardon. Most probably
                        this �Tricky Kalpana� may read in all the churches by next Sunday.
                        May be due to the current unexpected situation, they may even recall
                        the �Kalpana�.

                        I am really sorry for that church, now they lost their moral too.
                        May the God show them the correct path.
                        In Christ
                        Aji Thomas David
                      • BIJU KURIAN MATHEWS
                        HISTORY IS REPATING One more Kandanadu Bishop is comming on����the post of Catholicose Of The East.Mor Dionasius the present Kandanadu Bishop will be our next
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 24, 2002
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                          HISTORY IS REPATINGOne more Kandanadu Bishop is comming on�the post of Catholicose Of The East.Mor Dionasius the present Kandanadu Bishop will be our next Catholicose.Murimattom Mor Ivaniose who was the first bishop of Kandanadu appointed by H.H.Peter III�Patriarch in 1877.Later� Mor Ivaniose joined in Metran�group and Mor Abdulmasia (excommunicated Patriarch) ordain him as a Catholicose/Maphriana at Niranam Church�in 1912.Mor Augen Themotius(ordained as bishop by Moran Elias III�Bava in 1927)�was the second Kandanadu Bishop.Later he joined in�Metran Group.After �the church peace in 1964 Mor Yakub III Patriarch ordained him as a catholicose. In 1975 the Universal synod excommunicate him and Ordain the Kandanadu Bishop Paulose�Mor Phelaxinose(H.B.Baselius Paulose II)� (who was the Kandandu bishop from 1952.Third Kandanadu Bishop) as new Catholicose.In 1996 Mor Baselius Paulose II Catholicose� Bava Passed away.After�that Mor�Dionasius got the addtional Charge of Kandanadu.Now�thirumeni will become as Catholicose of the East. Long Live our new H.B.�CATHOLICOSE BASELIUS MARTHOMA���I�....OXIOSE ..OXIOSE...OXIOSE Let us give a thanks to God.Biju Kurian Mathews Muscat
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