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Re: Position of Patriarch

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  • thomas_pa1
    Dear Shri Mathews, There is no need to worry about all these. As long as we are steadfast in our confession of First three Ecumenical councils, Holy fathers
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 22, 2002
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      Dear Shri Mathews, There is no need to worry about all these. As long
      as we are steadfast in our confession of First three Ecumenical
      councils, Holy fathers will be on our side. So no need worry the least
      about this. We must not mix our faith with faith of other churches.
      Armenian Church, when they consecrated their largest church in Armenia
      invited our Catholicos. Bava went their with our delegation and
      communed there. One thing to be noted here. Coptic bishops went to
      Bava to say farewell. Two Syrian bishops did not go to Bava.

      Regarding our relationship with Syrian Church, some of you justify
      your faction, that every thing your faction did was the right thing.
      This would require that every thing the other faction did was wrong.
      Thus, you do not have the patience to understand the feelings of other
      side or atleast consider them as human as you are.

      Ethiopian Patriarch Theophilos (martyr) dedicated one of the thrones
      of the largest church in Addis Ababa to Indian Church in the name of
      St. Thomas.

      ...We cannot just sit in one corner of the world and say that one faction is always wrong. We need to list down the things that went wrong on both sides and come up with a reconciliation.

      I studied Sunday school only in the Jacobite faction and was the best
      outgoing student in that Sunday school. From the Orthodox side, I
      studied OVBS. Both sides greatly helped me. Negative feelings started
      in me only because of some rich Chevaliers who considered us inferior,
      being orthodox members attending Jacobite parish. My father told me to
      ignore such people and consider the Church as One. My father is an
      ordinary person with out any involvement in administration of parish
      and a person who prays every morning and evening observing every lent.
      So, whom should I trust, Chevaliers or my father? Unfortunately these
      are the people looking for dividing the church. Unless we study these
      people and their feelings, it is difficult to solve the problem. We
      ignore these people (Orthodox side) or blindly accept them (Jacobite
      side) as the defenders of truth.

      We riducle Mar Ougen and never stress that he was theologian and
      scholar of great capacity. This is our problem, we innocently don't
      know how to appreciate our God given capabilities and the civilization
      in which God placed us to grow as a Church. We have a tendency to be
      submissive. I am sure Mar Ougen knows the theological aspects of the
      matter and was of course a great confessor of Orthodox faith. Beyond
      this what are we seeking in our Orthodox religion?

      A Christian ought to produce more out whatever he got, little or
      great. What ever we received for Syrian Church of the past must be
      allowed to grow.....

      ...My happiness would be in the unity of my own family members, that we
      can worship in the same church with out keeping hard feelings.

      My feeling is that Patriarch knows the theology very well and he knows
      that there is need for only One Holy Synod. But some people in our
      Church is not allowing the Patriarch to do what he thinks is most
      appropriate.

      -Thomas

      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., Mathews Abraham wrote:
      > Dear Member Mr. Thomas Pal
      > You are again misleading the members of this forum.
      > Your first Catholicose Mor Augen was ordained by the
      > Patriarch of Antioch and there is no history of any
      > Coptic bishop or Patriarch ever ordaining a malankara
      > boshop. You people had invited a coptic bishop for
      > your seminary functio just to belittle the Syrian
      > Orthodox laity in kerala.On many occasions you had
      > brought and given big receptions to some unknown
      > bishops from the Assyrisn and Chaldean churches just
      > to show your people that many foreign patriarchs are
      > available for future ordination of your Catholicose.
    • Thomas Daniel
      The desert ascetic pursued and cultivated silence. This was a silence pregnant with the presence of the Divine, the womb where the Word grew. The goal of
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 22, 2002
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        The desert ascetic pursued and cultivated silence.
        This was a silence pregnant with the presence of the Divine,
        the womb where the Word grew.
        The goal of silence was the inner quiet of strength, not the total absence of words.
        Silence was deemed as intrinsic to the desert journey as prayer.
        This silence was inner calm and serenity grounded in strength.
        As for us today,
        silence calms the inner spirit to allow the whisperings of God to be heard. Purifying and nurturing silence supports the intentions inner journey"
         
        Source: p. 29 of "The Forgotten Desert Mothers", Laura Swann. Paulist Press, 2001


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      • dhinuus
        Mathew B, Please read the following FAQ about What shall I do to be saved? . This is prepared by Rev Kurian Kaniamparambil Kor-Episcopa and Mor Osthatious.
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 23, 2002
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          Mathew B,
          Please read the following FAQ about "What shall I do to be saved?" .
          This is prepared by Rev Kurian Kaniamparambil Kor-Episcopa and Mor
          Osthatious.

          http://www.stignatious.com/salvation.htm

          Mathew G,


          --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., Mathew B wrote:
          > I had a question for the group. What should our answer
          > be as a Malankara syriac orthodox Christian to the
          > question: ARE YOU SAVED? Does our church teach of an
          > instantaneous salvation? Can we say that we are saved
          > before the judgment day?
          >
          > Mathew
        • Malankara Voice.cjb.net
          Doubts of Mathew in SOCM forum Reply to [SOCM-FORUM] Digest Number 279, Message: 3, Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:06:54 -0000 Question 1:- Is there anything in
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 23, 2002
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            Doubts of Mathew in SOCM forum Reply to [SOCM-FORUM]
            Digest Number 279, Message: 3, Date: Mon, 22 Jul
            2002 23:06:54 -0000

            Question 1:- Is there anything in the canons or laws
            or agreements that none of the Metrapolitains from Malankara
            can get elected as Patriarch of Antioch ?

            Answer:- . According to the canons, any from the Church can
            become the Patriarch if he is elected. In the long history of
            the Holy Church, many of the Catholicoses (Mapfriyonos) of the
            East had later elevated to the highest order of the 'Patriarch',
            the supreme head of the Holy Church. This itself is an ample
            proof to the fact that the Patriarch is of superior order to
            the catholicose, which contradicts some of the recent private
            claims in Kerala that Catholicose & Patriarch are equal in status.

            Question 2:- Do all the Bishops from Malankara get to vote in an
            election to elect a Patriarch. Answer:- All the Metropolitans
            (Arch bishops) have the right to vote in the election of a Patriarch.
            This part is very clearly explained even in the modified constitution
            of the universal Church and was available in Internet until recently.
            The printed version is available in the Patriarchal cathedral and some
            other centres. There is also another special clause in the said
            constitution that the MetropoIitans under the direct juridscition
            of Patriarch must compulsorly retire (except the Patriarch & Catholicose)
            at the age of 75. Also all the bishops, must submit his property
            for the Church. Even the bishops of Simhasana Churches & EAE in
            India must abide by these laws. But in Malankara which follows a
            separate constitution, this has not been implemented yet.
            Here it is the local Church which have to decide on the matters
            regarding the retirement age etc. as they have an independant
            constitution. Earlier Thomas Athanasius of Kandanad (who is now
            in Methran faction) himself has requested for the immediate
            retirement of all the bishops (in both factions), including
            Catholicose Mathews II of Methran faction, who were then above 75.
            This news has been published in all the news papers in 1995; at
            that time he was in the Jacobite Syrian Church.

            Question 3:-. Is it true that none of the Metrans from the
            Malankara Church are invited for the Synod at Antioch ? I was
            told that in one of the important Synods recently where the name
            of church was changed from Syrian Orthodox to Syriac Orthrodox
            none of our bishops from Malankara participated nor were invited.

            Answer:- There are some false rumours spread by vested interested
            parties, that the Indian bishops are not invited always. In reality
            they are contacted when important decsions concerning the whole
            Church is to be taken. In the case of name change, the situation
            was very different. It has to be noted that the change in name was
            implemnted only in America which is under the direct juridisction
            of the Patriarch. (See the concerned news in SOR news page). This
            name change is not applicable even in Syria, other middle east
            countries or in India.

            Question 4:- Is it true that Patriarch Mor Abdulla II, had converted
            to Roman Catholic Church and he returned to the mother church only
            when Mor Abdul Messiah lost the firman from the Turkish Sultan so that
            he could become the next Patriarch ?

            Answer:- While it is true that Patriarch Abdulla II was there at
            RC churches for some time during the time of great persecutions
            as 'asylum' (details will be explained later), but he had never
            converted to that Church as claimed by my respected brothers in
            opposite faction, it is just to confuse ordinary people. Nowadays
            the opposite faction are cooking up such stories and tries to
            popularise it just like they manipulated the original version
            of "Madopadesasaram" written by Vattasseril Thirumeni. Now it
            is the manipulated version of the original text they are teaching
            in their Sunday Schools. In the original it is clearly written
            that it is the Patriarch of Antioch who is the supreme head of the
            Malankara Church. But in the republishing versions after 1970's
            they have changed it to "Catholicose is the supreme head of the
            Malankara Church". We will shortly publish the two versions in
            Malankara Voice.

            With RegardsFrom Malankara Voice.
          • V Thomas
            Dear All, As per Hindu beliefs this Kaliyug. They say everything will happen �����ulta����� (wrong way). In the last days, as told by Jesus, wrong will rule.
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 23, 2002
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              Dear All,
              As per Hindu beliefs this Kaliyug. They say everything will happen
              ‘ulta” (wrong way).

              In the last days, as told by Jesus, wrong will rule. Son will rise
              against father.

              What is happening in Malankara church is not much different.
              Catholicose and Bishops rebel against the father Patriarch
              Another example is -there was one thirumeni as pious and holy as
              Parumala Thirumeni. That Thirumrni( Late H.G.Paulose Mor Kurilos)
              was removed from the post of Malankara Metropolitan and cast out
              from Old seminary (Pazhaya seminary) by Vattseril metran. Later
              to seal the chapter completely, vattaseril metran sent His gunta
              anapappay to kill the metropolitan. But Metropolitan escaped
              Miraculously, but Ana pappy was killed. Now Vattseril is becoming
              saint, being followed by anapappy. Do any of us Remember the
              saint Kurilos thirumeni?
              This is Kaliyug!
              Love
              vmt
            • V Thomas
              Dear All, There is an expert in our forum who asks questions (innocuously innocentway)about church history and standing of our HH among other world churches
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 23, 2002
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                Dear All,
                There is an expert in our forum who asks questions
                (innocuously innocentway)about church history and
                standing of our HH among other world churches etc
                to confuse our readers. At the same time he writes
                in Indian orthodox forum vociferously about two
                partiarchate being in Syria, orthodox Partiarch has
                less number of followers , our relation with Syria
                is only after 16th centaury etc (V.C.Samuel follower).
                He goes to Ethiopia/erithria to quote the history and
                statistics(definitely He is a VCS follower ,Ethiopia was
                VCS his hunting ground)But one thing this gentle man
                pretends not to remember is it is Syriac orthodox (our)
                Patriarch who has participated and is recognised by the
                3 holy synods. Also Malankara church was only related to
                Syrian orthodox partiarchate from where we inherited the
                taksa, language, dress, kaipeppu and every thing. Pope have
                made parallel partiarchate in Syria as Catholic Church
                has grown bigger politically due to the growth of western
                powers. Their intention was to prove they are the supreme
                head and all others are subordinates. Syria being the gateway
                to ancient Rome many ethnic groups like Armenians, Greeks etc
                came to Syria. Later they also established their own
                partiarchates. A similar thing you can see in Bethelhem, where
                all religious groups have representatives. That will not reduce
                the position ans status of our HH.

                Why should we worry or compare ourselves to other Popes/Patriarchs?
                We have a great and distinct heredity-our HH is seated in the throne
                of St Peter. We shall worry about our church and our father (HH).
                If some ones father is richer and stronger, we can not denounce
                our father. That is why our church stood separately surviving
                Portugese, British influences last 2000 years in Malankara.
                I am proud of being Jacobite,I respect our HH than Pope.If our HH
                says you should not respect Pope,we will stop respecting Pope.
                We are not bothered if catholics make half the population on earth.
                (Is increase in number is so important that we have to think those
                are more in number is greater than us?

                Muslims in Kerala has gone up from 18% to 30%. Christains have come
                down to 20 or less From 24% percent. Does that mean Islam is a
                better religion than Christianity?
                Love
                vmt
              • dhinuus
                Thank you very much for the very detailed clarification. It is very useful.
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 23, 2002
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                  Thank you very much for the very detailed clarification.
                  It is very useful.


                  --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Malankara Voice.cjb.net" wrote:
                  > Doubts of Mathew in SOCM forum Reply to [SOCM-FORUM]
                  > Digest Number 279, Message: 3, Date: Mon, 22 Jul
                  > 2002 23:06:54 -0000
                  >
                  > Question 1:- Is there anything in the canons or laws
                  > or agreements that none of the Metrapolitains from Malankara
                  > can get elected as Patriarch of Antioch ?
                  >
                  > Answer:- . According to the canons, any from the Church can
                  > become the Patriarch if he is elected. In the long history of
                  > the Holy Church, many of the Catholicoses (Mapfriyonos) of the
                • MalankaraVoice.cjb.net
                  Click the following links for the latest from Malankara Hectic Preparations started at the Patriarchal Cathedral of Damascus for the historical enthronement
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 24, 2002
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                    Click the following links for the latest from Malankara
                     
                     
                    Hectic Preparations started at the Patriarchal Cathedral of Damascus for the historical enthronement ceremony of the Catholicose of the Universal Syrian Church http://www.geocities.com/malankarav2/Mangalam_24_july_02.htm
                     
                     
                    To read more click below
                     
                       


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                  • Thomas Daniel
                    Consecration of Mor Dionysius Thomas as Catholicose of Malankara Jacobite Church will take place on Friday, 26th July 2002 at 9.00 A.M (Indian time 11.00 A.M)
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 24, 2002
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                      Consecration of Mor Dionysius Thomas as Catholicose of
                      Malankara Jacobite Church will take place on Friday,
                      26th July 2002 at 9.00 A.M (Indian time 11.00 A.M) in
                      Patriarchal Cathedral, Damascus, Syria.

                      The Supreme Head of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church,
                      His Holiness Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, Prince Patriarch
                      of Antioch and All the East will be the chief celebrant. The
                      Syrian Orthodox Bishops from Malankara, Syria, Sweden, Netherlands,
                      Germany, Lebanon, Jerusalem and Australia will be the co-celebrants.

                      Indian ambassador to Syria, representatives of Syrian Government
                      will be attending the Holy ceremony as gusts.

                      His beatitude will arrive at 10.30 AM Cochin international airport
                      via Dubai & Bombay on 27th Saturday. A warm welcome by the Malankara
                      church representatives will be given at the Airport. H.B will be
                      escorted by many vehicles to Kottayam for the grand reception of the
                      church. The reception will be held at Thirunnakkara Ground on the
                      evening and will be preside by the Chief Metropolitan of the East
                      Mor Cleemis. Many sister church, political, government dignitaries
                      will attend the public function.

                      Mor Dionysius Thomas was chosen to be the Catholicose at the church
                      delegates meeting held at Puthencurizu, Kerala On July 6th, 2002,
                      and ratified by the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church Synod on 22nd
                      July 2002. For a brief biography of H.B please visit
                      http://www.malankarachurch.org/PARUMALA/mordionysius.htm

                      With the consecration of the new Catholicose, the split in the
                      Malankara Syrian Church is now formal. Of the total two million
                      followers of the Syrian Church, the Independent Indian Orthodox
                      faction has nearly 1.0 million, with 1,244 churches, while the
                      Patriarch faction has a total of 944 churches which include
                      majority of the historical and traditional churches, with 900,000.
                    • V Thomas
                      Dear Mr.THOMAS, When Maman Mappilai and vattaseril metran conspired to establish A new catholicose by a suspended Patriarch they thought About future
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 24, 2002
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                        Dear Mr.THOMAS,
                        When Maman Mappilai and vattaseril metran conspired to
                        establish A new catholicose by a suspended Patriarch
                        they thought About future generations?

                        Your present catholicose and bishops try to grab our
                        churches Or if that is not possible close such churches?
                        Is it for the well being of christiandum?The whole orthodox
                        set up at Kottayam live In falsehood.We dond't to be
                        part of that
                        Love
                        vmt
                        -----Original Message-----

                        Message: 1
                        Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:28:57 -0000
                        From: "thomas_pa1"
                        Subject: Re: Position of Patriarch

                        There is no cheating here. Entire Oriental Orthodox and Byzantine
                        Orthodox know the situation in India. There have been many visits
                        of Oriental and Byzantine Orthodox primates to the Malankara
                        Church. No Orthodox church wants 2 million of India's Orthodox
                        community to merge with Vatican or join Protestants. They all want to
                        see one Holy Synod and one head of Holy Synod in India. The problem
                        is that we are not ready for it. We are fighting because of our
                        typical keralite inferiority complexes and our inherent Keralite
                        natures. It doesn't bring any good for the future generation.

                        When are we ready for Orthodox Church leaving aside all our feelings
                        which we nurtured from childhood? Feelings are required, but
                        considering it as the ultimate truth is not a good sign.

                        -Thomas
                      • Aji Thomas David
                        Dear members. From very reliable sources, as the consecration of Catholicose is finalized, Devalokam Church has no option other than looking for a parallel
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 24, 2002
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                          Dear members.

                          From very reliable sources, as the consecration of Catholicose
                          is finalized, Devalokam Church has no option other than looking
                          for a parallel Patriarch. They are daring to amend the 1st Dubden
                          due to legal and spiritual fear. Above all the backlash from
                          the laymen.

                          A hectic back door telephone contacts and discussions are ongoing
                          to make a split in the Universal Syrian Church and create a parallel
                          Patriarch for Devalokam Church. Unfortunately these task taken and
                          lead by the backstabbers of our church. They are utilizing their
                          intellectual skills money time and above all the priesthood which
                          they got from the Throne of Antioch and that time contacts. By the
                          grace of God it did not materialize. Don�t think they are ldroped the
                          idea, just waiting to get chance and looking for an apt opportunity.

                          If they are unsuccessful, the alternate option is also under
                          considerations. For this they are going to use the base of ordination
                          of �Mar Thoma 1�.

                          Dr. Rev. O. Thomas, a young theologian and well known Gospel preacher
                          of Indian Orthodox Church, through their official internet magazine
                          �Malankara Deepam� asked to elevate two bishops as Patriarchs
                          (please note he is asking for two note one) for Devalokam Church.
                          One for Kerala and other for outside Kerala. If that�s going to
                          materialize, Is this parallel Patriarch is under the Catholicose
                          or Catholicose is under the parallel Patriarch? If Catholicose is
                          under the Patriarch, then why all these drama staged. I don�t know
                          who that lucky Methran is?

                          Another IOC member Mr. Thomas Pal (I think this gentle man is member
                          of this forum too) wrote in IOC forum (Actualy he spelled the offcial
                          consideration of Devalokam Church)

                          In the case of Coptic Church, in certain situations, 12 priests could
                          jointly ordain a bishop. Because of this, some historians say that Mar
                          Ahatallah, who came to India and authorized 12 Indian priests to ordain
                          "Mar Thoma 1" as Metran of Malankara, was sent by the Alexandrian Coptic
                          Church. Our churches earlier sent delegates to Antioch and Alexandria for
                          help against latinization.

                          There is also an Alexandrian Canon which says that 12 bishops can
                          elevate a Patriarch (11 bishops and one Patriarch). Alexandrian Church
                          kept the number of bishops of Ethiopian church as 11 or less, so that
                          Ethiopians would not crown a canonical Patriarch.

                          St. Cyril the 6th (Kyrillos V1) was a saintly Patriarch of the Coptic
                          Church. He was also a great reformer. Spiritual growth of modern Coptic
                          church is largely attributed to him. He created general bishops like
                          "bishop for youth", "bishop of education" etc. (Present Patriarch
                          Pope Shenouda was bishop of Education). Emperor Haile Selassie of
                          Ethiopia negotiated with Abba Kyrillos V1 to raise Ethiopian Church
                          to the status of a Patriarchate. This required 12 bishops. Patriarch
                          Kyrillos agreed and Coptic Church ordained more bishops and elevated
                          Abune Baselios of Ethiopian Church as the Patriarch of Ethiopian
                          Church in 1959.

                          Now Devalokam Church and its leadership are in a crazy mood. To trap
                          poor Jacobite, last week they were planning to send �Kalpana� to all
                          the churches, stating that, H.H. Catholicose is realize his mistake
                          and he is pleading to the Holy father for the pardon. Most probably
                          this �Tricky Kalpana� may read in all the churches by next Sunday.
                          May be due to the current unexpected situation, they may even recall
                          the �Kalpana�.

                          I am really sorry for that church, now they lost their moral too.
                          May the God show them the correct path.
                          In Christ
                          Aji Thomas David
                        • BIJU KURIAN MATHEWS
                          HISTORY IS REPATING One more Kandanadu Bishop is comming on����the post of Catholicose Of The East.Mor Dionasius the present Kandanadu Bishop will be our next
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 24, 2002
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                            HISTORY IS REPATINGOne more Kandanadu Bishop is comming on�the post of Catholicose Of The East.Mor Dionasius the present Kandanadu Bishop will be our next Catholicose.Murimattom Mor Ivaniose who was the first bishop of Kandanadu appointed by H.H.Peter III�Patriarch in 1877.Later� Mor Ivaniose joined in Metran�group and Mor Abdulmasia (excommunicated Patriarch) ordain him as a Catholicose/Maphriana at Niranam Church�in 1912.Mor Augen Themotius(ordained as bishop by Moran Elias III�Bava in 1927)�was the second Kandanadu Bishop.Later he joined in�Metran Group.After �the church peace in 1964 Mor Yakub III Patriarch ordained him as a catholicose. In 1975 the Universal synod excommunicate him and Ordain the Kandanadu Bishop Paulose�Mor Phelaxinose(H.B.Baselius Paulose II)� (who was the Kandandu bishop from 1952.Third Kandanadu Bishop) as new Catholicose.In 1996 Mor Baselius Paulose II Catholicose� Bava Passed away.After�that Mor�Dionasius got the addtional Charge of Kandanadu.Now�thirumeni will become as Catholicose of the East. Long Live our new H.B.�CATHOLICOSE BASELIUS MARTHOMA���I�....OXIOSE ..OXIOSE...OXIOSE Let us give a thanks to God.Biju Kurian Mathews Muscat
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