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Re: Did the Holy Spirit CREATE the IOC? I regret that I must ask.

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  • Ronnie Daniel
    Dear Deacon, Thank you for your enlightening response. I will make some comments with my little knowledge of our common church history. It may not make
    Message 1 of 1469 , Oct 2, 2006
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      Dear Deacon,

      Thank you for your enlightening response. I will make some comments
      with my little knowledge of our common church history. It may not make any sense to you and my apologies in advance.

      1.This was troubling me for long time and may be you can answer. I
      cannot understand how there can be several Apostolic Churches when
      we recite in the Nicene creed that we believe one holy catholic and
      apostolic Church. Which is this "one" church ?? Is it the Roman or the Syrian ?? It was decided in the Synod of Nicea to have 4
      regions and 4 Patriarchates and the Bishop of Rome was decided as the Reesh patriarch reflecting the oneness and universality of the
      church. How can there be another autocephalous church in the east
      within this one church.

      2.I may have to read my first comment with another topic in your
      email - Co-existence of different autocephalous churches in this
      world – You are obviously saying that the Syrian Orthodox church is
      existing because of the magnanimity of the Roman and Greek church .
      In spite of the Nicene creed agreement to the " One church "
      decision; they agree to let make other autocephalous churches. My
      question is why can't the Syrian Orthodox church show the same favor
      to Indian Orthodox Church and co-exist with a unified IOC?? The
      Roman, Greek and Antiochean church had no problem in letting the SOC
      go out from their umbrella; whereas the SOC has a problem when the
      IOC go out of their umbrella.

      3.You rightly said the church was created by the Holy Spirit and I am sure it was created on the day of the Pentacost. Is it that the
      dwelling of the Holy spirit on that day was a measure higher to St.
      Peter or a measure lower to St. Thomas. I believe that each and
      every apostle present that day got the Holy spirit in equal measure
      and each has equal role to play. Not one apostle over the other.
      St. Paul clearly says that to the Corinthians.

      4.Direct succession by laying of hands – I happen to read that the
      Holy Patriarch's position was lying vacant intermittently and some
      time the Catholicos of the East located somewhere in Turkey consecrated and layed hand on the Patriarch. Recently there was an
      ordination of the new Pope. Is there a continuity of laying of hands
      in that church, the biggest church in the world under the real throne of St. Peter. When did the Holy spirit dwelled on the new Pope. At the time of ordination or at the time when the white smoke came out of Vatican ?? In fact it was a matter of dispute among the Nicea fathers and they arrived at a conclusion that the Holy spirit dwells when a decision is taken. The physical act of laying the hand is just to formalize that decision of electing or selecting a Bishop or Pope.

      5.Deacon, you said that the IOC wanted to wipe out the Jacobites. How can any one wipe you out if your faith is strong. No one can wipe out you if God is with you. I think what you mean by "wiping out" is taking away the property created by the hard work of the
      Jacobites. Frankly speaking I am against it too. I do not wish the
      IOC to take a single cent of property from the JOC. But, do you know
      why did this happen ?? The mutual acceptance in 1958 had a hidden
      agenda. I tend to believe that it was a clear abuse of the Christian magnanimity the IOC leaders had shown to your side. Afterall property and wealth is a gift of God. No one need to grab another persons property. No one can be satisfied if God is not giving. I sometime wonder if one, any one of these Bishops fighting and begging for money and property live like our Saint Parumala
      Thirumeni, why do any church need to have lots of properties.

      6.You said St. Thomas left no successors in India. I think I
      mentioned about the arcadeacons who were named as Mor Thoma one ,
      two , three etc. Your post did not refer to any of those. Where did
      they come from if St. Thomas did not lay hands on any one in India.
      The instruction given my the Master was to go around the world and
      make disciples of everyone. It is difficult to believe that only St. Peter or St. Paul did it and St. Thomas did not do. May be they were not named the same way as Bishops or Catholicose or Patriarch as we see them today. I don't know whether St. Peter or St. Thomas
      themselves were Bishops or Patriarchs or Catholicose. Were they
      wearing the kind of vestemtns or gold crosses of today?? Of course I saw these vestments recently on the high priests who crucified Jesus Christ. May be these vestments and their glitter is the main reason for the fight amongst us.

      7.Dear Deacon, by saying that St. Vatasseril Thirumeni was "recreating" a Thomasine line; I think you are reaffirming your faith that there was a Thomasine line existing in India. This is in fact contradicting what you said earlier that St. Thomas did not lay
      hands on any one.

      8.An impartial read of the history will reveal that St. Thomas
      brought christianity to India, which was further nourished by the
      Knai Thoma and Bishops arrived in AD 345, which was again
      reinvigorated in the 16th or 18th century by the Syriac church.
      The Indian Christians must pay a lot of respect to the Syrian church. The Syrian church too should appreciate the fact that we stood with them in spite of the invasion of the Roman Catholics and other Protestant groups. They have a good sister church in India.

      9.You are saying that the evolution of IOC is in a non-christian
      way because the laying of hands was by a deposed Patriarch. Do you
      believe that a deposed Patriarch has no holy spirit dwelling in him? My understanding is that once a Holy spirit is given to person it cannot be taken back. We don't do baptism twice in spite of the
      person sinning again and again. May be that Patriarch had been
      removed from an administrative authority; but to believe that he has no holy spirit dwelling in him is not true. Please read the Supreme court verdict as well stating that the disposition was nor formal.

      10.About your statement that the IOC is trying to destroy JOC – The
      fact may be that IOC is trying to grab properties of JOC. Leaders on
      both sides gave a spiritual dimension to it to see that you and me
      fight continuously so that their chairs and thrones and positions are well secured. They need an army of people to fight for their chair and ego. They can do it only by stirring up spirituality !!!

      11.Again your question : quote "I asked whether or not the Holy
      Spirit CREATED the entity "Indian Orthodox Church" in opposition to
      the Church existing before. " unquote – I don't think the Holy
      spirit created IOC or JOC or any other entities. These entities are
      the creation of the men living in this world to look after their
      worldly administrational matters needed for their physical body.
      Holy spirit in fact lives in people who creates these entities. You
      are the temple of God; not these entities whether it is IOC or JOC.
      Same way laying of hand is a physical manifestation of a Godly act of dwelling of the Holy spirit. At Jesus's baptism Holy spirit came upon him. I don't know whether John the Baptist has anything to do with the dwelling of Holy spirit on Jesus. Also, I don't think there was any kind of laying of hands when the Holy spirit came upon the Holy Apostles on the Pentacost day. It was the same light saw by all. Was the light 500 watts on St. Peter and just 60 watts on St. Thomas ?? Did St. Peter lay his hand on every other Apostles before sending them to all parts of the world ??? Again your question : quote " Did the Holy Spirit ESTABLISH what is now known as the "Indian Orthodox Church," governed by the constitution of 1934 " unquote . I don't know. You tell me. If you believe that your 2002 constitution is established by Holy spirit; then for sure the 1934 too was established that way. If you think the Mulanthuruthy Synod was established by the Holy spirit; then the 1934 too was established by the same Holy spirit as both were done in the same manner.

      12.Your quote "The name "Indian Orthodox Church" has very little to
      do with spiritual evolution as it does with nationalism and racism.
      It is not even the official name of this church, at least not in all
      the court cases you have filed!" unquote – I agree. You call us by this name , so we are known by that name. Same way the Syriac Orthodox Church was known as Syrian Orthodox Church or the Jacobite Church. Where is it written that the SOC is the Jacobite church ??? I do agree when you say Christ is not St. Thomas. Christ is not St. Peter either. I think we all are involved in a losing battle. Every court case and every email or gossip circulated around is yet another nail on Jesus's body.

      Ronnie Daniel
      ID # 2304
    • SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
      Dear All in Christ Barekmore / Shlomo We, Malankara Jacobite Internet Platform (http://www.socmnet.org), Syriac Orthodox Resources (http://www.sor.cua.edu) and
      Message 1469 of 1469 , Nov 18 7:53 AM
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        Dear All in Christ
        Barekmore / Shlomo

        We, Malankara Jacobite Internet Platform (http://www.socmnet.org), Syriac
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