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Re: On Polemics, Rip offs, and Fabrications

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  • Phil Mathew
    Dear Mike, It has been a while since I studied the history of Orthodoxy in Russia,so you may have to help me out here. You said: It s about as subversive as
    Message 1 of 1469 , Sep 26, 2006
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      Dear Mike,

      "It has been a while since I studied the history of Orthodoxy in Russia,so you may have to help me out here. You said: "It's about as subversive as the Russians using the Byzantine Liturgy even after claiming their autocephaly from Constantinople through less than canonical means." Were there two groups in Russia each using the Byzantine liturgy (one being with Constantinople, the other being opposed [I'm not referring to the Greco-Latin dealings that eventually collapsed])? If there were two, was the group claiming independence trying to steal churches, relics,graveyards, other institutions, clerics, and laity, from the other group? This is an interesting comparison, since it took 141 years for Russia to be legitimately recognized as autocephalous; and if I'm not mistaken (like I said, it has been a while), the Patriarch of Constantinople had to be BRIBED in order to convince the other Byzantine rite patriarchs that Russia was to be recognized as autocephalous."

      The point of my remark was not to posit a one-to-one correlation between the two situations (much less a one-to-one correlation between the two situations *as you see them*). My point was that liturgy does not belong to the Church of origin in the sense that an author owns the rights to his book. Furthermore, the fact that it took so long for the Russians to be officially recognised as autocephalous, and that after less than canonical means were undertaken to assure this, means that any canonical improprieties you accuse the IOC of are not unique to India: different Churches throughout history have done such things. Does this make such improprieties right? No, not necessarily (and I'm not admitting or denying anything at this point). But it does make the situation less black and white than is often portrayed when you realise that no one during those times had the reaction to such things that firebrands on your side have.

      "With regard to Mor Basileos Yeldho, my statement was: "Mor Basileos Yeldho entered into the IOC diptychs years after the holy father was added to the Diptychs of the SOC." I did not say anything about the canonization of the saint. Mor Basileos Yeldho was added to the Syriac Orthodox diptychs in 1987. The IO's addition of this saint (as well as St. Thomas) occurred later. I've heard as late as 2000, but I can't verify that right now so maybe someone else knows."

      Again, I addressed this before. Kalpana #38 of H.H. Geevarghese II canonises Mor Gregorios of Parumala, adds him to the calendar of saints, and inserts his name into the Diptychs. The same kalpana does *the same* for Mor Baselios Yeldo "in the same way". From the perspective of the Church, their names were added from 1947 on. Why the texts printed by the Church's official printing press after that year were not edited to specifically include them in the text of further printings is unclear to me, as all this was authorised well in advance of 2000. I suspect economics have something to do with it.

      "DAside from family loyalty, why do you (or any of the IO seminarians with you)voluntarily affiliate yourself with such a group?"

      If I told you, you wouldn't pay it any mind.

      "Further, why bother discussing any of this with us?"

      I don't know. I guess I had hoped for some sort of irenic dialogue, but instead I got what the cynic in me thought I'd get. Before, I said I would not discuss certain points, but would restrict myself in what I would reply to. Now the semester is gearing up, and discussion here on this forum on this topic is becoming more futile for the reasons I brought up in my post to Dn. Joel (he thought I was trying to out-write you guys, but I wonder if this feeling stems from the fact that it seems like no one has any substantial counter to my points), so I will be bowing out completely from this discussion. But I do take this opportunity to once again encourage Dn. Joel to consider taking me up on the offer I made at the end of my reply to him.

      In Christ,

      Phil (#2368)
      St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary, New York
    • SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
      Dear All in Christ Barekmore / Shlomo We, Malankara Jacobite Internet Platform (http://www.socmnet.org), Syriac Orthodox Resources (http://www.sor.cua.edu) and
      Message 1469 of 1469 , Nov 18, 2007
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        Dear All in Christ
        Barekmore / Shlomo

        We, Malankara Jacobite Internet Platform (http://www.socmnet.org), Syriac
        Orthodox Resources (http://www.sor.cua.edu) and Malankara Syriac Christian
        Resource (http://www.syrianchurch.org/) together are compiling the following
        informations to publish an online directory of Syriac orthodox Clergy.

        Please note that this project is not based on any official church directives.

        We request each and every one of our forum members to request all clergy you
        know, to provide the informations on the following format along with a
        photograph of the clergy, to soc.clergylist@... . If you are a third
        party providing these informations, then you must have clear consent from
        clergy.

        First Name:-
        Middle Name:-
        Last Name:-
        Family Name:-

        Nationality:-
        Place of Birth:-
        Date of Birth & Age:-
        Present Diocese:-
        Home parish:-
        Present parish:-

        Ordination date:
        Ordained by:
        Present Clergy Status:-
        (Mzamrono / Qoruyo / Apodiakno / Mshamshono / Archdeacon/ Qashisho /
        Sharwoyo /Dayroyo / Rabban / Cor episcopos)

        Do you have Professional and/or Decorative titles? Yes or No:-
        If yes, what is the Profession? (Dr. / Eng. / Prof. etc):-

        Email Id:-
        Contact Tel. number:-
        Postal address:-

        Any additional information to be published on line:-

        Be with us and be part of us

        In HIS Love
        Webmasters & Moderators
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