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ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY

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  • Thomas Daniel
    ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY A RETROSPECTION OF INDIA IN FOURTH DIMENSION History is past politics and politics present history says John Robert
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 7, 2001
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      ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY
      A RETROSPECTION OF INDIA IN FOURTH DIMENSION

      "History is past politics and politics present history" says
      John Robert Sealey. Every nation has its dreams, the French
      dreamed being universally loved by all civilized people.
      Italians dreamed of making a mark on history like a lion
      with its claws .Germans loved of being a place in sun.
      Americans invincible, always right and in the long run
      always victorious. Soviet stood for international proletarian
      emancipation. The Portuguese and British apart from colonizing
      India dreamed of spiritually enslaving Indians to keep their
      hegemony forever intact.
      An English journalist attended Sunday service in a local
      church in Kerala. The altar was free from idols built in
      Persian architecture of East, priestly robes resembling dress
      code of Jewish high priest. He was shocked when he realized
      that the liturgy was written and recited in high tone not
      in Malayalam but in 'Syriac' a derivative(Edessene dialect)
      of ARAMAIC which Jesus Christ himself used .He was filled
      with awe to see a pure Eastern Church in the India of
      Hindus.
      When the first colonial power under navigatourship of Vasco
      Da Gamma landed in Kerala through Atlantic Ocean in 1498 in
      search of spices of kerala, Gamma was shocked to see Churches
      through out coast of Kerala. He inquired whether they are
      followers of Pope. They replied they have nothing to do with
      Pope, they are Eastern Christians, the first Christians of the
      world and many of them came from Middle East. Gamma
      reported this to their king and their followed a great
      conspiracy between king and Pope to enslave Eastern
      Christians of India by draconian measures .Eastern Christians
      were specially invited by rulers of Kerala to develop trade
      and they controlled ,maintained all markets and all business
      including export in association with Jewish, Syrian merchants
      who owned wind jammers. The Portuguese Catholic bishop of Goa
      Alexio Menzes wanted all Christians in India to come under
      his jurisdiction adopt Roman orthodoxy. Menezes started a visit
      of parishes advocating name of Pope instead of Patriarch as
      spiritual head(council of trent 1562).Portuguese influenced local
      rulers and the Archdeacon, local head of eastern Christians was
      made to sever ties with East under duress. They burned all
      books and scriptures of Eastern Christians(Udayamperur
      synod .20/6/1599 AD).The Hindu local Cochin king supported
      Portuguese and issued proclamation that any sryian Priest or Church
      which abstained from synod of Catholic Portugeuse bishop for
      establishing Catholic Church in kerala ,their assets will be
      confiscated,yet no Syrian priests of Angamali,earnestwhile head
      quarters of Syrian Church attended synod , local king was helpless.
      Mean while local population found Portuguese practices morally
      disgusting as renowned historian Prof.Guptan Nair
      says "Portuguese introduced beef for first time in India and
      not the Eastern Christians. "Eastern Christians to whom
      loyalty is paramount started their secret resistive movement,
      the Archdeacon of Eastern Christians sent secret appeals to
      Patriarch of East to send any prophet to ordain bishop for
      Eastern Christians in India and to liberate from Portuguese
      control through Eastern merchants. It took at least a decade
      for a letter to reach Patriarch of Antioch/East by sea
      route. Bishop Mor Ahatalla from Syria reached Surat in
      1652 .Mor Ahatalla was arrested by Jesuits on Aug. 3rd 1652.
      Portuguese took Mor Ahatalla to Goa, imprisoned him and was
      given choice of renouncing his Syrian Church accepting Pope
      or die. Mor Ahatalla was condemned a heretic by INQUISITION
      OF GOA and died at stake in 1654. The eastern Christians
      assembled in thousands at Cochin(Leaning cross event /
      KOONANKURISH SATHYAM , 16-1-1653 AD) and took oath no longer to
      submit to authority of Rome and be loyal to Patriarch of
      East only as their spiritual head. This broke yoke of Roman
      supremacy, Portuguese tried their best by arresting and killing
      as many Syrian prophets as possible as masters of sea. The
      Patriarch of Antioch and All the East again sent Abdel
      Galeel Mor Gregorios, bishop of Jerusalem and Eldo Mor
      Bascellios, bishop of Mosul(Iraq) to India.The former reached
      India in 1665 disguised as Arabic teacher and latter at age
      of ninety two through secret forest paths in 1685.Both
      revived and reconstructed completely shattered eastern Syrian
      Church in India(Kerala) gradually.Tipu Sultan of Mysore attacked
      Travencore in 1789AD during time of Darmaraja in which Tipu
      was defeated , but Tipu destoyed many Jacobite churches as a
      result many ancient Jacobite families fled from north
      Kerala to Ankamaly side , Kottayam merged into strong dias
      for first time with construction of Seminary there for all
      later troubles. Essence of speech of PATRIARCH .PETER-III OF
      ANTIOCH during his apostolic entourage to India in 1876 to
      stem British subversion against Syrians in India "The extent of
      your calamity and tragedy you know much better than we can
      ever know.We went through your history and we know the
      IRREPARABLE damage done to you by Portuguese. For they pillaged
      your church ,plundered your antiques, burnt your records and
      priceless books, leaving you orphans and destitutes. Thus Papist
      had taken more than half of your people".Portuguese supplied
      gold petals hidden in edible church offering to masses. Portuguese
      thus separated many Eastern Jacobite Syrian Orthodox
      Christians to form new separate eastern Syrian Catholic church
      loyal to Pope in India.Hence many Catholic and Jacobite families
      still have same Patronymic (family name) especially in Ankamally
      region.When Dutch took sea control they helped genuine Syrian
      Christians loyal to East consolidate among new emerging
      Syrian Catholics loyal to Pope by letting free their ships
      to bring Syrian prophets from East (Turkey, Syria, Israel and
      Iraq ) to India as stated by Danish historian ADRIAN V. MOINES.
      Soon British missionaries started subversion against Syrian
      Christians in India by sowing seeds of reformation.
      Protestant practices were advocated. Fifth Anglican Metropolitan
      bishop Daniel Wilson came to Kerala and presented scheme
      intended to bring Syrian Christians gradually under
      Anglican Church(precursor of mavellikara padiyola -
      1836).Relations grew worse when Rev Joseph Peet broke into
      Syrian Seminary and removed all books, documents including
      historic copper plates to British Residency. (later condemned by
      CMS of England).Syrians affirmed supremacy of Jacobite Patriarch
      of Antioch and declared not to deviate. Some English
      missionaries spread propaganda that St.Thomas did not come to
      India.At this stage Patriarch Peter-III of Antioch met Queen
      Victoria and asked to stop meddling with Syrian Church in
      India, Queen did so but by the time seeds of reformation grew
      and a new British model independent eastern Syrian Protestant
      church(syrian Marthomite) was founded separating some Syrians
      from original Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Christians in India.
      (Jacobite- named after Jacob Baradius ,adventurous bishop of
      Edessa who rejuvenated Church during Roman arrogance)
      Sent by St.Peter, St.Thomas (Dydimus) the apostle was a
      sculptor came to India in 52A.D, along Adanes, a merchant
      of Gondophornes(king of India ) who was in Jerusalem in
      search of a skillful architect. Gondophornes remained a
      mythical figure until Archeological excavations at Taxila
      enabled to trace line of Gondophornes to Indo-Parthian
      dynasty which ruled area comprising of Afghan, Seistan,
      Punjab, Sind, N. W. Frontier Province from 95B.C. to
      50A.D . St Thomas preached gospel first to Jews in India
      (reached because of Diaspora) and first converts to
      Christianity in India are Jews. St.Thomas was followed by
      Syrian bishop of Basra(Iraq) David Episcopa which no
      Western historians have recorded says historian Patriarch.
      Ignatius Aphrem-I of Antioch (1946,Homs-Syria)(bishop Vayaliparambil
      Mor Gregorios ": My Jerusalem Journey").
      Marco Polo Venetian traveller came to Mylapore in 1292A.D .His
      views are "Christians who thither on pilgrimages gather some
      soil from place were saint was killed and this they take
      to their countries".
      That which strengthen Christianity in Kerala( India) was
      immigration of Syrians from Mesopotamia to port of
      Muziris 345A.D.In 823 another batch from Syria arrived (Mor
      Sabrisho) beginning of new Malayalam Era known as ' KOLLA
      VARSHAM' with grant of royal patronage by king Ayyan to
      Mor .Sabrisho The high caste Hindu predominance can be seen
      in Syrian Orthodox ceremonial wedding in India with
      introduction of 'mangalsuthra'(thalikettu) which is absent in
      Syrian Churches in Middle East, apart from exchange of
      rings.This custom was copied by all new Syrian Churches
      later founded by colonial interference. Early Syrian Bishops
      were scholars in Arabic, Hebrew, Syriac, Sanskrit,Malayalam and
      Indian occult sciences like astrology, palmistry and indigenous
      medicine. Manifestly this FIRST genuine eastern Christian
      Church in India was result of "golden handshake" between
      Patriarchs of East and sages of India in bonafides as
      SIBLINGS of Great Oriental Civilization Syrian bishops as
      well as Namboodird Bhramins priest are addressed as 'Thirumeni
      (keeping body clean along soul)" is the best example that
      early local Indian population considered both religions as
      siblings.Right from St .Thomas all Syrian prophets reached
      India from Basra port (Iraq) via Persian Gulf sea
      route .They were solitaries like lion or eagle, came empty
      handed not with colonial armies yet created greater impact
      than West because spirit of God guided them .
      Colonial western spiritual policies were quintessence of
      dishonesty ,during ' Crusade' Italian sailors stole relics
      of Mor Sokha, Syrian bishop of Myra, Lycia (4th century A.D.
      born-Turkey). Italians built a new church in Bari (Italy)
      with relics and renamed him as St.Nicholas who later became
      famous by Western marketing as "SANTA CLAUSE". But he was a
      man of East. WILLIAM SOMERSET MAUGHAM accepts" Bible is
      purely a book of East beyond creativity and imagery of
      West, and there is nothing West can take pride of in this
      wonderful book" .In 1900, at Los Angles Swami.VIVEKANANDA
      said "You all often forget a vital fact that man from
      Nazareth belonged to ORIENT, inspite of your efforts to
      portray him in blue eyes and golden hair" .Internationally
      most Syrians are those Jews who accepted Jewish carpenter
      Esa Mashiha as " the root and offspring of David" .On
      observation you can see tombs of Syrian prophets throughout
      Jacobite or Syrian Orthodox Churches in Kerala, also names
      of Keralite Syrian Christians in epitaph of Syrian Cemetery
      in Jerusalem (Israel).This Oriental Consanguinity has been
      acknowledged by Hon. Supreme Court of India.The Supreme Court
      also recognizes H.H. Patriarch of Antioch and All the East
      in SYRIA as Supreme Head of Syrian Orthodox Christians
      in India.The Holy Throne Of Antioch was established by
      Patriarch.St .Peter, the chief Apostle in 37AD in Antioch
      (Turkey) as there was political unrest in Jerusalem after
      crucification of Christ in 33AD. (disciples of Christ were
      first called 'Christians ' at Antioch, ACTS:11:26) .Same
      St.Peter then found another Church in Rome in 67AD later
      known as Roman Catholic Church. Today as independent free
      thinking gained momentum there are tens of thousands of
      independent new testament church assemblies in West with
      groups operating in India who often consider a Syrian
      Christian as a non -Christian and will speak gospel also to
      them in airports, railway stations, hostels, hospitals and
      streets around the world. These groups believe in Church more
      than that in God that may be the reason.This article has
      been written to eradicate misconception about origin of
      Christianity in India and its misunderstood Western
      Connection as our historians have failed to bring true
      facts to Indian public under the shadow of Western
      drafted Indian History. But the TRUTH is as DANIEL
      DEFOE says

      "Whenever God erects a house of prayer
      Devil always builds a chapel there
      And it will be found on examination
      That latter has a greater congregation".

      From the desk of: BIBU PHILIP MATHEW; B.Tech(comp).
    • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
      Here is a good site to learn the true history of the Syrian Orthodox Church: http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/102f.htm Especially read the portion beginning
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 8, 2001
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        Here is a good site to learn the true history of
        the Syrian Orthodox Church:
        http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/102f.htm

        Especially read the portion beginning with
        "In 1906 Patriarch Abdul Messiah II was duly deposed
        and Môr Abdullah, backed by Môr Ivanios of Jerusalem and
        Môr Timotheos at Constantinople, .... "


        T
      • Thomas Daniel
        Dear Thomas What is the point though? Is the claim that the history of the Syriac Orthodox Church is somehow tainted? I would be the last person to argue
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 11, 2001
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          Dear Thomas

          What is the point though? Is the claim that the history of the Syriac
          Orthodox Church is somehow tainted? I would be the last person to
          argue against that. From that perspective the entire history of the
          Christian Church be it in the East or the West is tainted and
          reflects human frailty and weakness, often at its worst. I would
          readily admit that the turn of the 20th century was probably the
          worst period in the history of the Syriac Orthodox Church. The
          Ottoman empire exerted its heavy hand on the church and the spiritual
          life of the church under the subjugation of the Moslem empire had
          reached a low point. In those days, a Patriarch was the civil head of
          his community, the millet, and was even responsible for collecting
          taxes. He could be in that position only with the firman of the
          Caliph and the Caliph would give the firman only to someone who made
          a payment. This set the stage for corruption in the church. The
          tussle between Patriarch Abded Messiah and Patriarch Abdulla II
          happened during this time and was most unfortunate for the Syriac
          Orthodox Church. Vattasseril Mor Dionysius, who went to Patr. Abdulla
          for consecration as Metropolitan later took advantage of a
          disgruntled Abded Messiah and got him to consecrate a Catholicos.
          This was all during a time when the Syriac Orthodox in Turkey were
          under complete disarray and immediately later thousands of them were
          massacred by the Ottomans. Our people never once during all the
          centuries of our association extended a helping hand, but instead
          took advantage of the situation. Fortunately, with Patriarch Elias
          III, the church came under the spiritual guidance of one of the most
          devout leaders of modern times and ever since has made progress under
          the succeeding Patriarchs. To extrapolate the history of a few years
          around the turn of the 20th century and paint the entire history of
          the Syriac Church with a broad black brush is just malicious.

          For someone who would point to you the "tainted history" of the
          Syriac Orthodox Church, I have a retort: What good has come of the
          Malankara Church in the near 2000 years of its existence? The Syriac
          Church has produced innumerable fathers and doctors who are today
          held in reverence by Christians all over the world. It produced the
          earliest translations of the bible, innumerable commentaries on the
          Bible, 80 anaphoras, thousands of metrical hymns and homilies, and
          the list goes on. What has the Malankara Church, with its apparent
          glorious history produced during the same 2000 years? If the history
          of the Syriac Church was that bad, why are the Malankara Orthodox
          still using exclusively all the fruits of that dubious history?

          Personally, I think that history, esp. in the context of the
          Malankara Church, is used as a weapon selectively when it suits a
          denomination's claim to antiquity. The Catholics claim that St.
          Thomas Christians were always Catholic and make tenuous arguments to
          support that. Malankara Orthodox claim historical independence, where
          as some people with extreme views in our faction claim that they were
          always under Antioch. None of these positions are close to the truth.
          Even accounts of a single incident widely vary. For e.g., Catholics
          claim that in Koonen Kurishu Sathyam, people took an oath only
          against the Jesuits, the Indian Orthodox claim that they took an oath
          of independence, where as our faction claims that they took an oath
          to be under Antioch. I think the reality was closer to rejecting the
          Roman yoke, but it is hard to tell. The fact of the matter is that
          even if historians or archaelogists were to come up with evidence to
          support any of the statements, it doesn't make even a bit of a
          difference in the positions of the denominations. When history
          becomes inconvenient, it is conveniently forgotten.

          My point is that arguments based on history have little bearing on
          the current situation. If the different factions were to rise above
          the mean spirited struggle over money and power, focus on the will of
          God and attempt to resolve differences amicably in a Christian
          spirit, unity is possible. Hatred, even when justified by historical
          reasons, will never lead to Christian unity. If anyone thinks that I
          am going to be swayed away from the church that is the source of my
          spiritual heritage because of the actions of isolated people in its
          history, they are totally mistaken.

          In Our Lords Love
          Thomas Daniel

          PS: The article in Glastonbury Review is possibly by Abba Seraphim,
          bishop of the British Orthodox Church and relies heavily on Western
          histories written by Catholics and Protestants who had their own
          agenda in the Middle East. The British Orthodox themselves for years
          had attempted to be in communion with the Syriac Orthodox until the
          mid 90s, when they joined the Copts.


          --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., thomas_pa1@y... wrote:
          > Here is a good site to learn the true history of
          > the Syrian Orthodox Church:
          > http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/102f.htm
          >
          > Especially read the portion beginning with
          > "In 1906 Patriarch Abdul Messiah II was duly deposed
          > and Môr Abdullah, backed by Môr Ivanios of Jerusalem and
          > Môr Timotheos at Constantinople, .... "
          >
          >
          > T
        • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
          ... oath ... Please do not consider this response a counter argument to impose my views on you. I am interested in knowing if we had any connection with West
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 12, 2001
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            --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Thomas Daniel" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
            > Dear Thomas
            >

            > Even accounts of a single incident widely vary. For e.g., Catholics
            > claim that in Koonen Kurishu Sathyam, people took an oath only
            > against the Jesuits, the Indian Orthodox claim that they took an
            oath
            > of independence, where as our faction claims that they took an oath
            > to be under Antioch. I think the reality was closer to rejecting the
            > Roman yoke, but it is hard to tell. The fact of the matter is that
            > even if historians or archaelogists were to come up with evidence to
            > support any of the statements, it doesn't make even a bit of a
            > difference in the positions of the denominations. When history
            > becomes inconvenient, it is conveniently forgotten.

            Please do not consider this response a counter argument to impose
            my views on you. I am interested in knowing if we had any connection
            with West Syrian Church of Anthioc prior to 1965. I know about
            the connection of Malnakara Christians with persian Church.
            This is one reason why Catholics use chaldean syriac. Even in
            rest of the community, commonly used words are in chaldean
            syriac.

            In writing history, the West is perhaps far better than East,
            especially Indians. In India, there is no tradition of writing
            history. This makes it easy for various Churches to create
            their own history and take advantage of the lesser.

            There is historic evidence, in Syrian tradition and Indian tradition
            that "Koonan Kurish" oath was for re-establishing ties with Anthioc.
            I was reading a book written in the 17th century by an Anglican
            on the situation in India at the time of Koonan Kurish. There is
            absolutely no mention of Anthioc there. On the otherhand it is
            our common faith that the Indian leader of Indian Christians,
            i.e. Thoma, sent messengers not only to Anthioc, but to the
            Patriarchate of Alxandria also. Remember that Alexandrian connection
            is not something new. There is historical evidence that St. Demetrios
            the Patriarch of Alexandria sent St. Pantaneus to India. Can
            you provide evidence for any connection of Indian Church with
            Anthioc prior to 1965??

            By the way what is wrong with India, Indians and Indian bishops?
            Are they not human beings just like Syrians? Or is it that Syrians
            are superior to Indians. Let us think in Christian terms keeping
            the Orthodox faith. I am looking for concrete evidence that supports
            your view about Indian Church founded by St. Thomas.

            My view is that, St. Thomas establishing a Church in India is
            very similar to St. Mark's mission in Egypt and Alexandria. Only
            difference is that India was outside of Byzantine and Roman
            empire, so Patriarchates in the model of Churches in middle east
            and Africa, did not develop in India. Situation in India
            would have been much different, if our connection was with
            Alexandria and not with Syrian Church. Major cause of divisions
            in the Indian Church is the political unrest in the Syrian Church
            in the 20th century.

            T
          • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
            ... Dear Daniel, Writings of Syrian fathers were not always in Syriac as you think. Some wrote only in Greek, e.g. Patairch Severios, you may not like him
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 12, 2001
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              --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Thomas Daniel" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:

              > For someone who would point to you the "tainted history" of the
              > Syriac Orthodox Church, I have a retort: What good has come of the
              > Malankara Church in the near 2000 years of its existence? The Syriac
              > Church has produced innumerable fathers and doctors who are today
              > held in reverence by Christians all over the world. It produced the
              > earliest translations of the bible, innumerable commentaries on the
              > Bible, 80 anaphoras, thousands of metrical hymns and homilies, and
              > the list goes on. What has the Malankara Church, with its apparent
              > glorious history produced during the same 2000 years? If the history
              > of the Syriac Church was that bad, why are the Malankara Orthodox
              > still using exclusively all the fruits of that dubious history?
              >

              Dear Daniel, Writings of Syrian fathers were not always in Syriac
              as you think. Some wrote only in Greek, e.g. Patairch Severios,
              you may not like him these days since you accept RC. There is
              nothing wrong in an unity with RC, provided it happens after
              discussion with rest of Oriental Orthodox Churches. That should
              be our Christian way.

              Also liturgy is not an intellectual property of an ethnic Church.
              Ethiopians use Coptic liturgy for sacraments, but in Geez, Amharic
              language. Indian Churches use Syrian liturgy as it was used
              in Jerusalem. We follow the Jerusalem writes received from,
              Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem, but in Malayalam language. Also
              many of our customs are different from that of Syrians.
              Similarly Coptic Church also produced many theologians and
              saints.

              It is not that we didn't had our own liturgy. We had everything,
              but foreign churches imposed their liturgy on us and distroying
              our works.

              Malankara Church does not lack in theological scholars and
              spiritual writings. There are many commentaries of Holy
              Eucharist written by 20th century Malankara fathers. In the
              area of theological dialogues with Eastern Orthodox, theologians
              from India contributed more than any. If you catalogue the
              works properly, perhaps 20th century Malankara Church
              produced more works than 20th century Syrian Church.
              Syrian Church did produce great works when the concentration
              of the Church was more on spiritual matters. Todays Church,
              I fear is a shadow of past glory. I think any Church has a
              dynamic existence confronting contemporary problems. Projecting
              just works of the past in not enough. Fathers of the past,
              when they wrote, were writing in respinse to problems they
              faced at that time, mostly theological controversies. But today
              we face more problems than this, especially problems created
              by advances in technology and changes in life style.
              Writings of some of the 20th century Malankara Fathers are more
              popular in Oriental, Eastern Orthodox and RC world than any
              other works originating from Oriental Orthodox Church.

              Some how we tend to give our own leaders and their works a
              low value. This lack in self confidence is due to our West-centric
              view of Christianity. Indian Christians tend to think that
              Christinaity is a Western (middle-eastern in your case) Semitic
              faith. But the Church of new testament can exist in a non
              semitic world. That is the beauty of Orthodox Christianity.
              Today we have Churches in all Indian cities, mission centeres
              with the full support of the Indian goverment. Do you know the
              reason why Indian government support the mission of Malankara
              Church and not RC?


              T
            • Emil@copticchurch.net
              ... years ... Hi reji and thomas. The reason why I joined this discussion group is to learn more about a fellow Oriental Orthodox Church along with the Coptic.
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 12, 2001
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                --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Thomas Daniel" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
                > PS: The article in Glastonbury Review is possibly by Abba Seraphim,
                > bishop of the British Orthodox Church and relies heavily on Western
                > histories written by Catholics and Protestants who had their own
                > agenda in the Middle East. The British Orthodox themselves for
                years
                > had attempted to be in communion with the Syriac Orthodox until the
                > mid 90s, when they joined the Copts.
                >

                Hi reji and thomas.

                The reason why I joined this discussion group is to learn more about
                a fellow Oriental Orthodox Church along with the Coptic. And I am
                slowly trying to put things together as this is the first time I've
                encountered such history b/w the Syrian Orthodox Church and the
                Indian Orthodox.

                Can you please tell me more about the above information you posted
                regarding the British Orthodox Church. I remember Fr.Gregory of the
                British Orthodox Church came to visit us in Melbourne Australia and
                he mentioned the BOC trying to unite with the Antiochian church and
                it didn't work out because of problems. He also mentioned that
                Abba Seraphim was advised (in love and meekness) to seek communion
                with the Coptic Orthodox. What was the reasons behind this, and
                were there, is there any problems still within the Syrian Church as a
                whole? Forgive me if I'm wording things wrong... I'm an amateur in
                this area.

                I also remember Fr.Gregory stating Abba Seraphim tried with the Greek
                Orthodox too. He said all the Easterners were concerned about is
                land, money and the number of people within the Church. Things didn't
                work out there.

                In XC
                Emil
              • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
                ... 1000s martyrs of Syrian church are there in Syria ... priest a ... St. Thomas!!! St. Thomas was a Malayali Orthodox Apostle who died for all Indians. I
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 15, 2001
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                  --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Daniel Thomas" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
                  > Dear Members
                  1000s martyrs of Syrian church are there
                  in Syria
                  > died for their belief, can U show me 1 malayali Malankara Orthodox
                  priest a
                  > martyr, NEVER U will find.

                  St. Thomas!!! St. Thomas was a Malayali Orthodox Apostle who
                  died for all Indians. I said St. Thomas was Malayali because
                  in Christ race, ethnicity etc. vanishes. Indians (Hindus, Sufi
                  Muslims, followers of Budha, Jains, Parsi, Malankara Nazrani etc.)
                  were tolerant to other religions and that is why our Church did
                  not produce many Martyrs. In the middle-east and West, people
                  have an aggressive nature, probably because of excessive meat
                  eating and wine drinking. Let us remain thankful to the great
                  Indian civilization and maintain it in our lives.

                  >Then why should I join subversion against Holy
                  > Throne Of Antioch.

                  A throne is holy only if it maintains the Orthodox faith.
                  This is an ancient teaching. Alexandrian Throne is
                  holy because it maintains the true faith. Syrian Church of
                  Anthioc currently lives in communion with RC, so the
                  Throne is not Holy according to ancient traditions of the
                  Church (please read St. Cyril, St. Severus etc on this matter).


                  >What Malankara bishop's party has its own apart
                  >from what it has acquired from Patriarchs, not even 1 Prayer or saint
                  >or priestly name
                  > or dress. Slight differences are deliberately made now.
                  >

                  Almost all the names used by Malankara bishops are
                  Coptic/ Greek. Athanasios, Kurillos (Cyril), Diascoros, Makarios,
                  Anthonios etc. originated from Coptic Orthodox Church. The name
                  Severios is also not Syriac. Infact St. Severios did not write in
                  Syriac. Everything he wrote was in Greek.

                  The attire currently used by Syriac Orthodox priests are similar
                  to that of RC. For example, their cap is similar to that of
                  Pope of Rome. Bishops also wear this kind of "makki Thoppi" similar
                  to muslims, but in black color. The red attire of Syrian Bishops
                  also is a copy of RC tradition. Only in head cover of monks and
                  Bishops, the Syrian Orthodox Church truly follows the Alexandrian
                  Coptic tradition (i.e. head cover with 13 crosses). Syrians got
                  this from Alexandrian monks. The same is used by Indian monks.
                  Original Syrian attire for Bishops is very close to what we see
                  in Icons of St. Issac of Nineveh (Mar Issahac in Diptych #5) which
                  is very similar to that used in North India among Rajasthani People
                  and Sikhs (made of a long piece of cloth). Ethiopian Monks also
                  wear such head cover made of yellow cloth.

                  Hence the argument that Malankara clergy follows Syrian style dressing
                  is no justification for the claims of Syrian authority over Apostolic
                  Indian (Oriental) Orthodox Church.

                  Thomas.
                • BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW
                  ... From the desk of: B ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M B.E.(CSE) 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD COCHIN-682 024 SOUTH INDIA
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 13, 2002
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                    ---
                    From the desk of:
                    B
                    ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                    BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                    B.E.(CSE)

                    32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                    COCHIN-682 024
                    SOUTH INDIA

                    email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                    :hellobibu@...

                    NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.

                    ______________________________________________
                  • DANIEL BABU PAUL
                    TOTUS TUUS MARIA ... From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW To: Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 14, 2002
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                      TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW <bibuphilipmathew@...>
                      To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
                      Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY


                      > ---
                      > From the desk of:
                      > B
                      > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                      > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                      > B.E.(CSE)
                      >
                      > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                      > COCHIN-682 024
                      > SOUTH INDIA
                      >
                      > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                      > :hellobibu@...
                      >
                      > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                      >
                      > ______________________________________________
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
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                    • Aji Thomas
                      Thanks for the nice and informative article Aji ... Desk Of Bibu.doc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 14, 2002
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                        Thanks for the nice and informative article

                        Aji

                        --- BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW
                        <bibuphilipmathew@...> wrote:
                        > ---
                        > From the desk of:
                        > B
                        > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                        > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                        > B.E.(CSE)
                        >
                        > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                        > COCHIN-682 024
                        > SOUTH INDIA
                        >
                        > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                        > :hellobibu@...
                        >
                        > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                        >
                        > ______________________________________________

                        > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/msword name=From the
                        Desk Of Bibu.doc



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                      • V Thomas
                        Bravo! It was very good. You have condensed the whole history nicely. Ending quoation was fantastic. Devil is running around to have a big crowd in the
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 15, 2002
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                          Bravo!
                          It was very good. You have condensed the whole history nicely.
                          Ending quoation was fantastic. Devil is running around to have a big crowd
                          in the association meting.
                          Natuaaly they will make sure the crowd is big by hook or crook.
                          vmt
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW" <bibuphilipmathew@...>
                          To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
                          Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY


                          > ---
                          > >From the desk of:
                          > B
                          > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                          > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                          > B.E.(CSE)
                          >
                          > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                          > COCHIN-682 024
                          > SOUTH INDIA
                          >
                          > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                          > :hellobibu@...
                          >
                          > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                          >
                          > ______________________________________________
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
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