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Re: [SOCM-FORUM] P C Alexander's nomination for Presidency

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  • Fr. John Kunjukunju
    My intention here is only to say Dr Babu Paul, well done. If people with sense makes their voice, though there will be problems, things will change in the long
    Message 1 of 13 , May 30, 2002
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      My intention here is only to say Dr Babu Paul, well done. If people with
      sense makes their voice, though there will be problems, things will change
      in the long run. Behind every change there is someone made scapegoat.
      My honest opinion is that present patriarchal faction is the only faction
      who completely lost the Christian spirit.
      One open word against the system is enough to ruin the whole thing. It paid
      rich dividents to me for airing certain frank opinions.
      This is less than a cult. We can only pray. Fr John KK.
    • DANIEL BABU PAUL
      yesterday i was in a hurry. Reg Kaniamparampil Achan s experiments with truth you can ask him; I don t think he would mind. alternatively you can ask
      Message 2 of 13 , May 31, 2002
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        yesterday i was in a hurry.
        Reg Kaniamparampil Achan's "experiments with truth" you can ask him; I don't
        think he would mind. alternatively you can ask Corepiscopa PP Joseph,
        Kottayam. I do not know the exact years, Pulickaparampil Achan may remember.
        Metran Kakshi, I think, was as Vicar in Trichur parish: again I can't give
        exact years. These are tidbits one collects as one grows up.
        I have no aversion to the Patriarch side. I am still an altarboy, my 56th
        year, in our parish here. I cannot agree with the attitude of the
        leadership, which, I fear, will lead to the conversion of a major church
        into a minor group in , say, five years from now. If I were to develop
        aversion I should have, in 1974 when they first sent complaint against
        e( the first signatory is now in the Devalokam Committees!!!), or when our "
        synod" waited on Achutanandan in 96 to plead that I may not be made Chief
        Secretary( one of the bishops made a "confession" to me later, I had heard
        even earlier), or when they prevented the Patriarch against Moran's wishes
        to visit my wife in her sick bed or even seeing me although HH would have
        liked me to translate the speech which I had written for him( BJP mouthpiece
        compared that speech with Pope's Delhi speech and said our Bawa was
        wiser!!!, Bawa wanted a photocopy and translation of that editorial which I
        sent later), or when they issued a defamatory kalpana(which many achans
        refused to read!): I have no aversion; I just feel sad that the church
        leadership has fallen into the hands of shortsighted people.
        As for Roman Catholics my position is the same as that of HH. We are in
        economic communion with them the world over; that is why even in Kerala
        Catholics give desakuri for the Patriarch side( the other side is close to
        the declaration we made in 84, but yet to formally make it).
        Hope this clarifies the position.
        TOTUS TUUS MARIA
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <madhu george>
        To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 7:03 PM
        Subject: Re: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] P C Alexander's nomination for Presidency


        > dear Babu Paul,i cannot understand your aversion to the
        > patriarch faction of late.it does not behove the status of a man
        > who was adorned the decoration of the Holy Ghost to betray the
        > church.since when did you start realising the virtues of the Roman
        > Catholic church.was their persecution of all non catholic
        > christians the world over all these years,the source of your
        > inspiration. and when was Kaniamparampil Kurien Cor-Episcopa,a
        > member of the catholic church?please clarify,for i intend to take
        > this matter up with Achen....
      • drthomas_joseph
        Dear Dr. Babu Paul, India is a democracy which subscribes to the principle of universal adult franchise. Every citizen of the country, regardless of his or her
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 2, 2002
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          Dear Dr. Babu Paul,

          India is a democracy which subscribes to the principle of universal
          adult franchise. Every citizen of the country, regardless of his or
          her academic qualifications, has the right to influence the electoral
          processes in the country. That includes Fr. Kallapara. Mr. P.C.
          Alexander, during his long career as a civil servant has on numerous
          occasions exerted his influence to the detriment of the Church to
          which Fr. Kallapara and many other members of this group belong to.
          According to you, he granted a favor by facilitating a meeting
          between the President and the Patriarch in 1982, but you fail to
          mention his actions hurting the Patriarch faction, including attempts
          to prevent the Patriarch from visiting the faithful in Malankara who
          accept his spiritual authority. If he becomes President, I would be
          indeed surprised if the Patriarch were permitted to visit India let
          alone visit the President. Fr. Kallapara and other members of the
          Church are well justified in not desiring to have such a person head
          the government of their country.

          Fr. Kallapara may not have had the benefit of the secular education
          that you have had access to. But he is an ordained priest. You have a
          right to disagree with him, but belittling a priest as "my friend
          Kallaappara" a village priest who has had little education to speak
          of and of a limited "horizon" is unbecoming of an apparently highly
          educated person as yourselves.

          You state that with the exception of a handful of people, all others
          owe allegiance to one faction or other merely because of their birth
          into one or the other. From your past affiliation with the Patriarch
          faction that you now want to distance yourselves from, presumably
          these others includes yourselves. In the past you have stated that
          you belong to the Church recognized by the Supreme Court (Msg #449;
          Feb 28, 2002). You have also stated earlier that because of
          communal "quotas" the faithful in the Patriarch faction will not
          desire to be part of any entity that the Court has deemed to be
          directly under the authority of the Patriarch (Msg #305; Feb 4,
          2002). Your notion of a church has been revealed to the members of
          the forum through these messages. It appears that you consider the
          church to be a communal organization whose members merely follow the
          herd in one faction or the other, look to civil authorities to decide
          upon its affairs including matters of faith, and whose allegiance to
          the Church depends on worldly benefits such as college admissions
          that it can offer. In September 1999 (if I remember right), according
          to news reports, you threatened to leave the Church if your demands
          were not accepted. All this from the "bar `idto breero" (the faithful
          son of the Church!).

          You brag about your contributions to an ungrateful Church; I must
          assume that you are referring to political favors that you have
          granted. You fail to mention the benefits that you have received.
          With the benefit of hindsight, I can only conclude that you
          cultivated an image as the leader of the Patriarch faction to survive
          the challenges of the communal charged politics in Kerala to your
          civil service career.

          On February 7, 1982, when you stood by the side of His Holiness
          Patriarch Mor Ignatius Zakka I at the Maharajas College Grounds in
          Ernakulam, I was a teenager in the audience who put you high on a
          pedestal. You have betrayed the trust that thousands of faithful
          placed in you. Now that you do not have any political benefits to
          receive from your affiliation with the Church, I would really hope
          that you turn in the title of "bar `idto breero" to His Holiness and
          leave us ignorant, uneducated and unsophisticated faithful in the
          Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church alone.

          Thomas Joseph



          --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "DANIEL BABU PAUL" wrote:
          > Although I had decided long ago not to respond in this column Holy
          Spirit
          > compels me to say that this is very uncharitable. I am not on the
          question
          > whether PCA would make the best President, but to speak against his
          > nomination JUST BECAUSE he belongs to the other group is very
          unfortunate.....
        • PAUL POTHEN
          I have read a posting by a Methran Kakshi fellow (DOOLEY ) questioning the nature of the SOCM forum (ie; whether this forum is a Political or Religious). Dear
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 5, 2002
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            I have read a posting by a Methran Kakshi fellow (DOOLEY ) questioning the nature of the SOCM forum (ie; whether this forum is a Political or Religious).  

             

            Dear Sir, before criticizing this forum please go back to the year 2000 when the Kerala Assembly elections was going on.  Do you remember who was the Left Front candidate for the Sultan Batherry constituency?   It was none other than the present Priest Trustee of Methran Kakshi, Fr. Mathai Nooronal  !!! 

             

            Do you know what was his qualification for such a candidature? �.   Only his money power & greed for positions after positions !!!

             

            Now do you know with how much margin he was defeated?   It was the 3rd highest in that election ie; 20,000 +.  The people had rejected him outright.  

             

            Naturally in that election, the Jacobite Christians also was for the defeat of Mathai Nooronal Achen, he being a Methran Kakshi �Priest Trustee�, who always tried to destroy them.   But it was not only the Jacobites who opposed this Achen, but also some Methran Kakshi Priests from Kunnamkulam and the Almaya Association of Methran Kakshi and many of its ordinary members.

             

            But inspite of knowing the general opinion of the Methran Kakshi members, none from its top leadership requested nor pressurised the Achen, to withdraw his candidature nor did he ever was removed from his post, why ?   ONLY BECAUSE EVERYONE IN THE TOP IS ONLY INTERESTED IN POLITICS  !!!!  &  ALSO BECAUSE THIS ACHEN IS VERY INFLUENTIAL (Politically) & RICH  !!!!

             

             

            NOW  CAN  YOU  TERM  YOUR  FACTION  AS  JUST  A  POLITICAL  PARTY,  BECAUSE  OF  ITS  PRIEST  TRUSTEES�S  CANDIATURE  IN  A   GENERAL  ELECTION.

             

            ONE MORE THING, do you know that there was a detailed discussion in the Indian Orthodox forum on the candidature of this Priest trustee of Methran Kakshi around the time of the AssemblY election, just like the present discussion in SOCM forum regarding the candidature of PC Alexander.    I have then read many postings in that Indian Orthodox forum supporting the Priest trustee�s candidature and most in that forum predicted an easy victory for him.  Now do you accept that this Indian Orthodox forum of your Church too is just a political forum and not a religious forum?

            Dear Sir, it will be better to think twice before criticizing others for the same.

            Paul Pothen



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          • Thomas V.M
            Dear Sir, Politics is a part of life.The Saint(!!) Vattserils politics is what we have inherited. Regards ...
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 5, 2002
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              Dear Sir,
              Politics is a part of life.The Saint(!!) Vattserils
              politics is what we have inherited.
              Regards

              --- DOOLEY1112@... wrote:
              > Is this is Christian Forum or a Political Forum?
              >
              >


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            • Thomas V.M
              Dear All, What Babu Paul forgot is Jesus did not select his followers from PhD s. It was unchristain on his part to call a respected priest as SSLC and
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 5, 2002
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                Dear All,
                What Babu Paul forgot is Jesus did not select his
                followers from PhD's.
                It was unchristain on his part to call a respected
                priest as SSLC and redicule,that too after saying he
                is writting this prompted by Holy Ghost.
                Love


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              • kuriakose george
                Dear All, I read recent posting on this forum about Indian Presidential nomination (whether PCA, BP, Narayanan, Fr Kallapara etc). I have fully convinced
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 6, 2002
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                  Dear All,

                  I read recent posting on this forum about Indian Presidential nomination
                  (whether PCA, BP, Narayanan, Fr Kallapara etc). I have fully convinced
                  that I am not at all wrong in my opinion about US ( the great traditional
                  MALANKARA SYRIAN CHRISTIANS whether it is orthodox/Jacobite).

                  WHEN WE TALK ABOUT MONEY, POWER, POLITICS, THRONE WE WILL HAVE HOLY SPIRIT

                  WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CHARITY, SPIRITUALITY, LOVE, BROTHERHOOD WE WILL HAVE
                  COOLIE's (LABOUR'S) SPIRIT
                  (Spirit smuggled from TN ,freely available in kerala either thru govt.
                  owned or distributed by private Abkari contractors, after having 20 ml
                  EITHER
                  we will carry kuruvadi to street/church (shame, in our churches we are
                  not at all bothered to carry the traditional ornamental things like kuriz,
                  koda, kodi etc inherited by us for religious processions( perunal)
                  OR
                  on streets in a number of vehicles( Ratham) fitted with high volume
                  speakers and flags(kodi) for procession.( like political parties).

                  Friends and brothers can you please tell me which spirit you have received
                  for which you have lost your wisdom of Christianity.

                  Any way most of us (including me) have taken the COOLIE's spirit. That is
                  why we talk politics, we hurt people, we act proud. Are we not made our
                  churches as commercial establishment (just survey when you travel MS
                  Christians dominated places, we will see on all road sides more kurizpally
                  and Erupannaram (Throw in Donation Boxes). Now we want our church to be
                  politicized. Then why don't we convert/donate our churches for political
                  party's offices (Not a bad idea, money & power is there also). (Refer my
                  earlier posting -quote " MS Churches in Kerala one day will be a govt. owned
                  body same as DEVASOM BOARD". It seems that it is imminent.). Well,
                  brothers please do not allow this. Church, Politics, Money, Muscle Power are
                  to be treated as different entities.

                  Remember, decline of Christianity/x'ian values in western countries/Europe,
                  are because of unnecessary interference by churches in political arena. Do
                  we want this? Stop and think for a while. Apply the wisdom you have got
                  from the real HOLY SPIRIT of Christianity.

                  Kuriakose George, New Delhi






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                • DANIEL BABU PAUL
                  you are factually wrong on history: the Nampadan episode was after the Patriarch left Kerala. I broke the news to Bawa in Bombay. PCA was the one who arranged
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 6, 2002
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                    you are factually wrong on history: the Nampadan episode was after the Patriarch left Kerala. I broke the news to Bawa in Bombay.
                     
                    PCA was the one who arranged HH's meeting with PM, amidst a busy schedule, finding a few minutes in the Parliament House when Lok Sabha was in session.
                     
                    I have no grievance against abnybody waiting on the verandah od Achutanandan's house. My postings are , have always been, in the hands of God; that is why even today 2 years after retirement I am being used by God.
                     
                    In Malayalam there is a saying that before killing a dog it should be branded rabid. This is what people have done to me. I have not protested; I just don't care. I say things which I am convinced of. If it irritates people I am sorry. When you say that you cannot forgive PCA you are not being Christian; Christianity is all about forgiveness. Anyway my main point is that it is only total ignorance of the office of the President or total lack of Christian charity which prompts this kind of outburst against a distant possibility of a person WHOSE CHURCH AFFILIATION AND CHURCHRELATED VIEWS WE DO NOT APPROVE OF getting nominated. For all one knows PCA may not make it at all, but for us to stoop so low as we have done as a church is very unchristian.We as a church look like fools in the eyes of people outside the rabid factionalists.
                    Teaching is not inferior. My mother was a teacher. What I meant was only that his knowledge can be very limited and his horizon very small.And therefore in him an error like this is pardonable. It would be unpardonable in people like you who are obviously wellversed in history, law, theology ,etc. whatever be your field of specialisation.
                    TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:17 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] P C Alexander's & Babu Paul's nominations

                     

                    About Babu Paul’s response to P C Alexander’s nomination & Kallapara Achen.

                     

                     

                    Dear  Babu Paul Sir,  

                     

                    It will be good if you can spend some time to realise the facts.  All who is truthful to the Church knows that, what forced the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Christians to object the nomination of P C Alexander to the president-ship.   You too know the facts, which you have expressed in PRIVATE Conversations (though you may deny now) to top leaders in our Church when you were in the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church.

                     

                    In 1982, on the eve of the Patriarch’s visit to Malankara, there was a great pressure on the then Indian Government to disallow His Holiness’s visit...

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