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Re: [SOCM-FORUM] P C Alexander's nomination for Presidency

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  • Fr. John Kunjukunju
    My intention here is only to say Dr Babu Paul, well done. If people with sense makes their voice, though there will be problems, things will change in the long
    Message 1 of 13 , May 30 4:18 PM
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      My intention here is only to say Dr Babu Paul, well done. If people with
      sense makes their voice, though there will be problems, things will change
      in the long run. Behind every change there is someone made scapegoat.
      My honest opinion is that present patriarchal faction is the only faction
      who completely lost the Christian spirit.
      One open word against the system is enough to ruin the whole thing. It paid
      rich dividents to me for airing certain frank opinions.
      This is less than a cult. We can only pray. Fr John KK.
    • DANIEL BABU PAUL
      NO. My career record will speak for me. I refused to blindly sign detention orders against RSS in 1975 July; I was transferred out. In 1985 I spoke against
      Message 2 of 13 , May 31 10:04 AM
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        NO.
        My career record will speak for me.
        I refused to blindly sign detention orders against RSS in 1975 July; I was transferred out. In 1985 I spoke against mass conversions of the type the being attempted in India. In 1993 my paper on the Relevance of Sri Rama was published in Bhashaposhini. In 1993, also, I told Abid Hussain in a private consultation that if I ever join a party, after retirement , it would be BJP. In 96 I spoke against forced conversions. All through this period BJP was nowhere near power. I have my views, if the world has changed to suit my views I am not to be blamed.
        Reg the appointment as such I have no information except a couple of reports in smalltime newspapers, and of course the general rumour mill in Kerala, and passing references by people who make welcome speeches.In my 40 years I never sought nor declined any job Govt offered me. Then I was in service. Now I have the option to take or decline any offer( I have already declined 3 specific offers for re employment!!)
        Thank you for asking.
        TOTUS TUUS MARIA
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:27 PM
        Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] P C Alexander's & Babu Paul's nominations

        About PC Alexanders’ nomination,  what I read from newspapers is that he is being projected by the BJP Govt. inorder to block the chances of Sonia Gandhi becoming the Prime Minister, who is also a Christian by birth.  By electing PC Alexander as the President (who is for many years a close aide of “Shiv Sena”, a coalition partner of BJP in Maharastra  & Central Govt.), the BJP thinks that they can easily raise the objection to choose another Christian (Sonia ) to the highest position, such as the Prime Minister.   Knowing the trap, the Congress leaders are now demanding to allow the present President Mr. K R Narayanan to continue, instead of P C Alexander. 

        Anyhow this is Politics and I am not interested to judge what is right or wrong.  But my present question is regarding Babu Paul’s nomination to another Governmental position. My letter is to him.

         

        Dear Babu Paul,

         

        I have read many postings a few weeks back in Indian Orthodox forum in which you expressed your full support to the RSS supreme Sudersan, while criticizing some Christian Bishops (belonging to various Churches) as they objected to his teachings.  You said in that forum that Sudersan is such a nice person and Christian leaders who objected to his stand are doing this without understanding the facts.  

         

        Subsequently, some active participants of that (IOF) forum, criticised you for your stand, which was in favour of RSS chief and that was against Christian Bishops.    I don’t wish to go into the details whether RSS leaders or Christian leaders are correct.

         

        But I would like to know what prompted you to make such a statement supporting BJP. 

        Is it just because you are RECENTLY  SHORTLISTED  BY  THE  SAME  BJP GOVERNEMNT  IN  THE  LIST  OF  PROBABLE  CANDADITAES  FOR  THE  STATE GOVERNER’S  POST  ?

        Mathew Varkey

         


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      • PAUL POTHEN
        About Babu Paul�����s response to P C Alexander�����s nomination & Kallapara Achen. Dear Babu Paul Sir, It will be good if you can spend some time to realise
        Message 3 of 13 , May 31 10:47 AM
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          About Babu Paul�s response to P C Alexander�s nomination & Kallapara Achen.

          DearBabu Paul Sir,��

          It will be good if you can spend some time to realise the facts.All who is truthful to the Church knows that, what forced the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Christians to object the nomination of P C Alexander to the president-ship.�� You too know the facts, which you have expressed in PRIVATE Conversations (though you may deny now) to top leaders in our Church when you were in the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church.

          In 1982, on the eve of the Patriarch�s visit to Malankara, there was a great pressure on the then Indian Government to disallow His Holiness�s visit.�� The entire Methran Kakshi leadership (except a very few knowledgeable persons from TVM parish and their Almaya Association) tried their maximum to block the Patriarch�s visit claiming that there will be law & order problem, if His Holiness is allowed to come here. (this, they repeated in 2000 during the Patriarch�s 2nd Apostolic visit).�� Upto the last minute there was a great confusion on the matter and the Jacobite Syrain Christains were very worried.These are all facts, simple facts !!!

          Again it is a well known fact that,it wasthrough a TOPOFFICIAL in the then Indian PM�s (Indira Gandhi)office,the Methran Kakshi leadership tried their maximum, to obstructHis Holiness�s apostolic visit.Everyone knows the identity of this official & the politician who acted behind the scene. But you now twist the whole thing !!!Don�t think that you are the only person in the world.

          Though initially Prime Minister Indira Gandhi succumbed to the pressure of some, later was forced to backtrack following the political changes that suddenly happened after Congress Ministry in Kerala fell with the withdrawal of support by anMLA, Mr Lonappan Nambadan of Mani group.�� It was only because of the political compulsion that followed (Kerala election was announced following loss of majority to the then Congress CMK Karunakaran), the Congress Govt at centre, finally allowed the Patriarch�s visit.�� These are all well-known facts.

          Even after knowing these very facts, can any of the Jacobites ever pardon this top official who tried to help the Methran Kakshi leadership by disrupting the Patriarch�s visit in 1982 ?You may now claim that nothing like that had happened then,orsay that we must all forgive & forget ?Of course it will be good,if we are ready to forget all these.

          But in real life is that possible ?�� And that too in this particular case; remember we are all human beings.You may claim it is possible, but you too like some others, openly declared allegiance to the Methran Kakshi in 1997, following some personal grudge (?) and seeking some material benefits,isn�t it ?�� You claim that you were not appointed as Chief Secretary only because of the objection of the Jacobites.Are these Jacobites so influential, so that you who have support of Methran Kakshi & Manorama, be prevented from a post of Chief secretary to Kerala government ?�� Don�t try to fool everyone, always.

          Now about Kallapara Achen, you say he is talking against the nomination of P C Alexander just because he is just a village Priest with a TTC !!�� Is teaching in a school so inferior ? Remember everyone cannot become an IAS officer.Don�t be so cheap even while criticising your enemies.��� It will be good to recall that, he is much much better than some who shift from one side to another like fourth class politicians,much more better thanMannaraprayil Corepiscopa ( Methran Kakshi�s present Church Spokesman) and very much better than Fr. K M George achen (Methran Kakshi�s Kottayam Seminary Principal).

          After going through the recent�posting by Babu Paul in this forum,I think P C Alexander is such a nice person than some others, who shifts side like changing cloths.Please don�t try to justify your action with such cheap arguments like that you have made against a �TTC, Village Priest�.

          �Paul



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        • sabu thomas
          Dear Mr... Babu Paul, I read your opinion about the issue of president election���� in India. You said you wrote it by the inspiration of Holy Spirit, I should
          Message 4 of 13 , May 31 12:54 PM
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            Dear Mr... Babu Paul,

            I read your opinion about the issue of president election� in India. You said you wrote it by the inspiration of Holy Spirit, I should say it was not�, because� (1)�I� never heard the Holy� spirit interested in politics, (2) Y you called Rev.Fr. Varghese Kallappara� just "Kallappara" What you think you are above Patriarch? Even if� Fr.Kallappara&nI don'ts your friend you must call him "Achen" You are only a layman like� other people , you are not suppose to call a Achen like that. Idon't think nobody called your father� just "Cheerathottam" . You also mentioned few names who went otherside. Who cares? It didn't affect the Holy Church, This Church not depends upon� the IAS or Doctarte, Its stand on the faith of innocent people�. If you want go to the other fraction ? you can go, anybody hold you? It is better than the spy work.� It is so happy to hear ,your relative Fr. Poulose� Peter went other�group he was a headace of Arch Diocese .He keeping his family tradition like his father ,changing churches(his father was a Priest who went to� "Malankara Reeth" ) This is enough for your knowloge. Give respect and take respect.

            <

            Sabuachen

            <
          • DANIEL BABU PAUL
            yesterday i was in a hurry. Reg Kaniamparampil Achan s experiments with truth you can ask him; I don t think he would mind. alternatively you can ask
            Message 5 of 13 , May 31 9:03 PM
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              yesterday i was in a hurry.
              Reg Kaniamparampil Achan's "experiments with truth" you can ask him; I don't
              think he would mind. alternatively you can ask Corepiscopa PP Joseph,
              Kottayam. I do not know the exact years, Pulickaparampil Achan may remember.
              Metran Kakshi, I think, was as Vicar in Trichur parish: again I can't give
              exact years. These are tidbits one collects as one grows up.
              I have no aversion to the Patriarch side. I am still an altarboy, my 56th
              year, in our parish here. I cannot agree with the attitude of the
              leadership, which, I fear, will lead to the conversion of a major church
              into a minor group in , say, five years from now. If I were to develop
              aversion I should have, in 1974 when they first sent complaint against
              e( the first signatory is now in the Devalokam Committees!!!), or when our "
              synod" waited on Achutanandan in 96 to plead that I may not be made Chief
              Secretary( one of the bishops made a "confession" to me later, I had heard
              even earlier), or when they prevented the Patriarch against Moran's wishes
              to visit my wife in her sick bed or even seeing me although HH would have
              liked me to translate the speech which I had written for him( BJP mouthpiece
              compared that speech with Pope's Delhi speech and said our Bawa was
              wiser!!!, Bawa wanted a photocopy and translation of that editorial which I
              sent later), or when they issued a defamatory kalpana(which many achans
              refused to read!): I have no aversion; I just feel sad that the church
              leadership has fallen into the hands of shortsighted people.
              As for Roman Catholics my position is the same as that of HH. We are in
              economic communion with them the world over; that is why even in Kerala
              Catholics give desakuri for the Patriarch side( the other side is close to
              the declaration we made in 84, but yet to formally make it).
              Hope this clarifies the position.
              TOTUS TUUS MARIA
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <madhu george>
              To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 7:03 PM
              Subject: Re: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] P C Alexander's nomination for Presidency


              > dear Babu Paul,i cannot understand your aversion to the
              > patriarch faction of late.it does not behove the status of a man
              > who was adorned the decoration of the Holy Ghost to betray the
              > church.since when did you start realising the virtues of the Roman
              > Catholic church.was their persecution of all non catholic
              > christians the world over all these years,the source of your
              > inspiration. and when was Kaniamparampil Kurien Cor-Episcopa,a
              > member of the catholic church?please clarify,for i intend to take
              > this matter up with Achen....
            • George Varghese
              2 June To Mr. Madhu George You do not have to ask Most Respected achen. He was with the catholics for 2 years at younger age. He himself has told this in
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 2, 2002
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                2 June

                To Mr. Madhu George

                You do not have to ask Most Respected achen. He was with the catholics
                for 2 years at younger age. He himself has told this in the court during
                the initial stages of thge preent case.

                George Varghese/Kuwait

                "madhu george" wrote:

                > dear Babu Paul,i cannot understand your aversion to the
                > patriarch faction of late.it does not behove the status of a man
                > who was adorned the decoration of the Holy Ghost to betray the
                > church.since when did you start realising the virtues of the Roman
                > Catholic church.was their persecution of all non catholic
                > christians the world over all these years,the source of your
                > inspiration. and when was Kaniamparampil Kurien Cor-Episcopa,a
                > member of the catholic church?please clarify,for i intend to take
                > this matter up with Achen.
                > On Wed, 29 May 2002 "DANIEL BABU PAUL" wrote :
                > >Although I had decided long ago not to respond in this column
                > >Holy Spirit
                > >compels me to say that this is very uncharitable. I am not on the
                > >question
                > >whether PCA would make the best President, but to speak against
                > >his
                > >nomination JUST BECAUSE he belongs to the other group is very
                > >unfortunate.......
                >
                >
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                > SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
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              • drthomas_joseph
                Dear Dr. Babu Paul, India is a democracy which subscribes to the principle of universal adult franchise. Every citizen of the country, regardless of his or her
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 2, 2002
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                  Dear Dr. Babu Paul,

                  India is a democracy which subscribes to the principle of universal
                  adult franchise. Every citizen of the country, regardless of his or
                  her academic qualifications, has the right to influence the electoral
                  processes in the country. That includes Fr. Kallapara. Mr. P.C.
                  Alexander, during his long career as a civil servant has on numerous
                  occasions exerted his influence to the detriment of the Church to
                  which Fr. Kallapara and many other members of this group belong to.
                  According to you, he granted a favor by facilitating a meeting
                  between the President and the Patriarch in 1982, but you fail to
                  mention his actions hurting the Patriarch faction, including attempts
                  to prevent the Patriarch from visiting the faithful in Malankara who
                  accept his spiritual authority. If he becomes President, I would be
                  indeed surprised if the Patriarch were permitted to visit India let
                  alone visit the President. Fr. Kallapara and other members of the
                  Church are well justified in not desiring to have such a person head
                  the government of their country.

                  Fr. Kallapara may not have had the benefit of the secular education
                  that you have had access to. But he is an ordained priest. You have a
                  right to disagree with him, but belittling a priest as "my friend
                  Kallaappara" a village priest who has had little education to speak
                  of and of a limited "horizon" is unbecoming of an apparently highly
                  educated person as yourselves.

                  You state that with the exception of a handful of people, all others
                  owe allegiance to one faction or other merely because of their birth
                  into one or the other. From your past affiliation with the Patriarch
                  faction that you now want to distance yourselves from, presumably
                  these others includes yourselves. In the past you have stated that
                  you belong to the Church recognized by the Supreme Court (Msg #449;
                  Feb 28, 2002). You have also stated earlier that because of
                  communal "quotas" the faithful in the Patriarch faction will not
                  desire to be part of any entity that the Court has deemed to be
                  directly under the authority of the Patriarch (Msg #305; Feb 4,
                  2002). Your notion of a church has been revealed to the members of
                  the forum through these messages. It appears that you consider the
                  church to be a communal organization whose members merely follow the
                  herd in one faction or the other, look to civil authorities to decide
                  upon its affairs including matters of faith, and whose allegiance to
                  the Church depends on worldly benefits such as college admissions
                  that it can offer. In September 1999 (if I remember right), according
                  to news reports, you threatened to leave the Church if your demands
                  were not accepted. All this from the "bar `idto breero" (the faithful
                  son of the Church!).

                  You brag about your contributions to an ungrateful Church; I must
                  assume that you are referring to political favors that you have
                  granted. You fail to mention the benefits that you have received.
                  With the benefit of hindsight, I can only conclude that you
                  cultivated an image as the leader of the Patriarch faction to survive
                  the challenges of the communal charged politics in Kerala to your
                  civil service career.

                  On February 7, 1982, when you stood by the side of His Holiness
                  Patriarch Mor Ignatius Zakka I at the Maharajas College Grounds in
                  Ernakulam, I was a teenager in the audience who put you high on a
                  pedestal. You have betrayed the trust that thousands of faithful
                  placed in you. Now that you do not have any political benefits to
                  receive from your affiliation with the Church, I would really hope
                  that you turn in the title of "bar `idto breero" to His Holiness and
                  leave us ignorant, uneducated and unsophisticated faithful in the
                  Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church alone.

                  Thomas Joseph



                  --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "DANIEL BABU PAUL" wrote:
                  > Although I had decided long ago not to respond in this column Holy
                  Spirit
                  > compels me to say that this is very uncharitable. I am not on the
                  question
                  > whether PCA would make the best President, but to speak against his
                  > nomination JUST BECAUSE he belongs to the other group is very
                  unfortunate.....
                • PAUL POTHEN
                  I have read a posting by a Methran Kakshi fellow (DOOLEY ) questioning the nature of the SOCM forum (ie; whether this forum is a Political or Religious). Dear
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 5, 2002
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                    I have read a posting by a Methran Kakshi fellow (DOOLEY ) questioning the nature of the SOCM forum (ie; whether this forum is a Political or Religious).  

                     

                    Dear Sir, before criticizing this forum please go back to the year 2000 when the Kerala Assembly elections was going on.  Do you remember who was the Left Front candidate for the Sultan Batherry constituency?   It was none other than the present Priest Trustee of Methran Kakshi, Fr. Mathai Nooronal  !!! 

                     

                    Do you know what was his qualification for such a candidature? �.   Only his money power & greed for positions after positions !!!

                     

                    Now do you know with how much margin he was defeated?   It was the 3rd highest in that election ie; 20,000 +.  The people had rejected him outright.  

                     

                    Naturally in that election, the Jacobite Christians also was for the defeat of Mathai Nooronal Achen, he being a Methran Kakshi �Priest Trustee�, who always tried to destroy them.   But it was not only the Jacobites who opposed this Achen, but also some Methran Kakshi Priests from Kunnamkulam and the Almaya Association of Methran Kakshi and many of its ordinary members.

                     

                    But inspite of knowing the general opinion of the Methran Kakshi members, none from its top leadership requested nor pressurised the Achen, to withdraw his candidature nor did he ever was removed from his post, why ?   ONLY BECAUSE EVERYONE IN THE TOP IS ONLY INTERESTED IN POLITICS  !!!!  &  ALSO BECAUSE THIS ACHEN IS VERY INFLUENTIAL (Politically) & RICH  !!!!

                     

                     

                    NOW  CAN  YOU  TERM  YOUR  FACTION  AS  JUST  A  POLITICAL  PARTY,  BECAUSE  OF  ITS  PRIEST  TRUSTEES�S  CANDIATURE  IN  A   GENERAL  ELECTION.

                     

                    ONE MORE THING, do you know that there was a detailed discussion in the Indian Orthodox forum on the candidature of this Priest trustee of Methran Kakshi around the time of the AssemblY election, just like the present discussion in SOCM forum regarding the candidature of PC Alexander.    I have then read many postings in that Indian Orthodox forum supporting the Priest trustee�s candidature and most in that forum predicted an easy victory for him.  Now do you accept that this Indian Orthodox forum of your Church too is just a political forum and not a religious forum?

                    Dear Sir, it will be better to think twice before criticizing others for the same.

                    Paul Pothen



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                  • Thomas V.M
                    Dear Sir, Politics is a part of life.The Saint(!!) Vattserils politics is what we have inherited. Regards ...
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 5, 2002
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                      Dear Sir,
                      Politics is a part of life.The Saint(!!) Vattserils
                      politics is what we have inherited.
                      Regards

                      --- DOOLEY1112@... wrote:
                      > Is this is Christian Forum or a Political Forum?
                      >
                      >


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                    • Thomas V.M
                      Dear All, What Babu Paul forgot is Jesus did not select his followers from PhD s. It was unchristain on his part to call a respected priest as SSLC and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 5, 2002
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                        Dear All,
                        What Babu Paul forgot is Jesus did not select his
                        followers from PhD's.
                        It was unchristain on his part to call a respected
                        priest as SSLC and redicule,that too after saying he
                        is writting this prompted by Holy Ghost.
                        Love


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                      • kuriakose george
                        Dear All, I read recent posting on this forum about Indian Presidential nomination (whether PCA, BP, Narayanan, Fr Kallapara etc). I have fully convinced
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 6, 2002
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                          Dear All,

                          I read recent posting on this forum about Indian Presidential nomination
                          (whether PCA, BP, Narayanan, Fr Kallapara etc). I have fully convinced
                          that I am not at all wrong in my opinion about US ( the great traditional
                          MALANKARA SYRIAN CHRISTIANS whether it is orthodox/Jacobite).

                          WHEN WE TALK ABOUT MONEY, POWER, POLITICS, THRONE WE WILL HAVE HOLY SPIRIT

                          WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CHARITY, SPIRITUALITY, LOVE, BROTHERHOOD WE WILL HAVE
                          COOLIE's (LABOUR'S) SPIRIT
                          (Spirit smuggled from TN ,freely available in kerala either thru govt.
                          owned or distributed by private Abkari contractors, after having 20 ml
                          EITHER
                          we will carry kuruvadi to street/church (shame, in our churches we are
                          not at all bothered to carry the traditional ornamental things like kuriz,
                          koda, kodi etc inherited by us for religious processions( perunal)
                          OR
                          on streets in a number of vehicles( Ratham) fitted with high volume
                          speakers and flags(kodi) for procession.( like political parties).

                          Friends and brothers can you please tell me which spirit you have received
                          for which you have lost your wisdom of Christianity.

                          Any way most of us (including me) have taken the COOLIE's spirit. That is
                          why we talk politics, we hurt people, we act proud. Are we not made our
                          churches as commercial establishment (just survey when you travel MS
                          Christians dominated places, we will see on all road sides more kurizpally
                          and Erupannaram (Throw in Donation Boxes). Now we want our church to be
                          politicized. Then why don't we convert/donate our churches for political
                          party's offices (Not a bad idea, money & power is there also). (Refer my
                          earlier posting -quote " MS Churches in Kerala one day will be a govt. owned
                          body same as DEVASOM BOARD". It seems that it is imminent.). Well,
                          brothers please do not allow this. Church, Politics, Money, Muscle Power are
                          to be treated as different entities.

                          Remember, decline of Christianity/x'ian values in western countries/Europe,
                          are because of unnecessary interference by churches in political arena. Do
                          we want this? Stop and think for a while. Apply the wisdom you have got
                          from the real HOLY SPIRIT of Christianity.

                          Kuriakose George, New Delhi






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                        • DANIEL BABU PAUL
                          you are factually wrong on history: the Nampadan episode was after the Patriarch left Kerala. I broke the news to Bawa in Bombay. PCA was the one who arranged
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jun 6, 2002
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                            you are factually wrong on history: the Nampadan episode was after the Patriarch left Kerala. I broke the news to Bawa in Bombay.
                             
                            PCA was the one who arranged HH's meeting with PM, amidst a busy schedule, finding a few minutes in the Parliament House when Lok Sabha was in session.
                             
                            I have no grievance against abnybody waiting on the verandah od Achutanandan's house. My postings are , have always been, in the hands of God; that is why even today 2 years after retirement I am being used by God.
                             
                            In Malayalam there is a saying that before killing a dog it should be branded rabid. This is what people have done to me. I have not protested; I just don't care. I say things which I am convinced of. If it irritates people I am sorry. When you say that you cannot forgive PCA you are not being Christian; Christianity is all about forgiveness. Anyway my main point is that it is only total ignorance of the office of the President or total lack of Christian charity which prompts this kind of outburst against a distant possibility of a person WHOSE CHURCH AFFILIATION AND CHURCHRELATED VIEWS WE DO NOT APPROVE OF getting nominated. For all one knows PCA may not make it at all, but for us to stoop so low as we have done as a church is very unchristian.We as a church look like fools in the eyes of people outside the rabid factionalists.
                            Teaching is not inferior. My mother was a teacher. What I meant was only that his knowledge can be very limited and his horizon very small.And therefore in him an error like this is pardonable. It would be unpardonable in people like you who are obviously wellversed in history, law, theology ,etc. whatever be your field of specialisation.
                            TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:17 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] P C Alexander's & Babu Paul's nominations

                             

                            About Babu Paul’s response to P C Alexander’s nomination & Kallapara Achen.

                             

                             

                            Dear  Babu Paul Sir,  

                             

                            It will be good if you can spend some time to realise the facts.  All who is truthful to the Church knows that, what forced the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Christians to object the nomination of P C Alexander to the president-ship.   You too know the facts, which you have expressed in PRIVATE Conversations (though you may deny now) to top leaders in our Church when you were in the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church.

                             

                            In 1982, on the eve of the Patriarch’s visit to Malankara, there was a great pressure on the then Indian Government to disallow His Holiness’s visit...

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